Vegan Couple nearly murders their child with Veggie Diet!

[atlantabiolab]

thank you for the reply, as for the use of medroxyprogesterone,

I apologize if i didn't clarify that its use is not in beef, but rather used therapeutically in Mexico to assist children in reaching height (height therapies were an old obsession of mine), and were administered by a doctor to a young man in an effort to reduce serum androgens which have long been suspected of causing premature maturation/closure of the epiphyseal tissues, thus reducing a maturing adolescent's time in which he can grow.

the concerns with beef are so many that i could spend the next 50 megabytes writing on each of them, but a few of the endogenous hormones in use are for purposes as: (1)(2)

Fertility enhancement and improvement of in-vitro success
genetic manipulation of cattle in order to maximize natural marketable efficiency (designing cattle with more beef on them)
Production (milk) enhancement for maximum efficiency
metabolic agents to limit beef adipose production
antibiotics, antidiabetics, and other illness management drugs used to insure cattle utilization.
anabolic agents used to maximize feed efficiency
growth agents used to maximize cattle partitioning

of all of these, the ones which are suspected of growth retardation are growth agents (HGH), anabolic agents (steroids), metabolic agents (t3, clenbuterol), and production enhancers (igf1).

zearalenone, a fermentation estrogen (RALGROW) which binds to epyphesial tissues is suspected of slowing the growth process (3).

diethylstilbestrol (DES)(discontinued, but still ocasionally used) - an estrogen which is used to treat hormonal problems brought on by ovarial operations or misadministration of androgens, is highly suspect in premature epiphesial closure.

thyroprotein - used along with T4 and T3 to stimulate increased milk production. this protein increases somatotropins in milk (igf, gh) and also tends to taint the milk with trace amounts of triiodothyronine (t3) and thyroxine(t4).

melengestrol acetate (BOVATEC) - another estrogen-type feed enhancer which is commonly used to improve feed efficiency and prevent estrus in cattle. it increases serum androgens (kind of like reverse aromatization) and can be used as late as 48 hours prior to slaughter.

trenbolone acetate - our old friend fimaplix, im sure i don't need to explain the fact that androgens are well known for epyphesial maturation.

testosterones and their esters - again, well known to stunt growth.

now, the first thing to keep in mind is these substances exist in infinitesimal amounts, and typically, the FDA allows their use because studies (funded by the proponents) have shown that residues from these components are supposedly below any amounts which could collect in an average person. as for the fast-acting androgens, well this is why fina is so popular too (because it is supposed to clear the system quickly with no residues), but unfortunately, there is evidence that these androgens under many circumstances will not entirely clear the system. trenbolone alone is actually known to last 90-120 days (and typically, heifers are not alive that long after implantation)(5). the simple act of improperly implanting fina is known to increase residue(4) levels which its funny, but as long as the beef council tests it, it passes, but when independent studies test it, the numbers are always higher(6).

now i must point out, this is a hotly disputed item (the discussion of whether or not there are sufficient residues in meat to be a problem for humans) because every side comes up with its own proof that either there are, or there are not harmful residues....

kind of like the rBST controversy with milk, the dairy industry argues that rBST is not detectable in humans, yet time and again, serum IGF levels in humans are statistically higher in milk drinkers than non-milk drinkers(7)(8)

now the point here (before i digress too much) is:

1. that meat is known to contain androgens
2. the amount and residues of which are disputed
3. therapy to reduce the effects of these androgens is proving highly effective in negating the effects of these androgens (particularly the deleterious ones such as stunted growth).


now, as for the argument about the substances used to clean the devices in which infant formulas being within acceptable levels because of the fact they have been "proven" to be below toxic amounts is theoretically correct, and i cannot argue that. but my concern is that (and ask around), there will be times when you buy a t-shirt and put it on, and it itches the hell out of you. you wash it a few times and it will no longer itch. the idea here is that although the chemicals used to process our goods are supposed to be below toxic levels for residues, there are many times when these residues (either by human error, substitution, or downright criminal negligence by the manufacturers) will reach unhealthful or even toxic levels, and buying products which don't use these methods (if more effective and less toxic methods are available) seems to be a way of "playing it safe" and avoiding the possibility....


============references==========
(1) Goldman, Patti, J.Martin Wagner World Trade Organization Dispute Settlement Proceeding European Communities - Measures Concerning Meat and Meat Products (Hormones)
http://www.citizen.org/pctrade/gattwto/beef.html

(2) FSNET August 1, 1999: SAFETY OF HORMONE-TREATED BEEF QUESTIONED; CP (July 30, 1999)

(3) Nilsson LO, Boman A, Savendahl L, et al. Demonstration of estrogen receptor-beta immunoreactivity in human growth plate cartilage. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999;48:370-3.

(4) http://www.maverickranch.com/faq.htm#13

(5) http://www.fsis.usda.gov/oa/pubs/focusbeef.htm

(6) http://ansci.colostate.edu/ran/meat/redmeatsafety.html

(7) Daxenberger A, Breier BH, Sauerwein H. Increased milk levels of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) for the identification of bovine somatotropin (bST) treated cows. Analyst 1998 Dec;123:2429-35

(8) Epstein SS. Unlabeled milk from cows treated with biosynthetic growth hormones: a case of regulatory abdication. Int J Health Serv 1996;26:173-85

Where is your evidence of growth retardation from food? From my readings the final heights of individuals has been increasing for decades, due mainly to increased meat/fat consumption. I would be interested in seeing evidence that we are shrinking.

As for your assertions that meats contain "toxic" substances, and while they are in minute quantities, and MAY cause problems in SOME, why limit this idea of medical case anomalies to all foods? Do you realize that vegetables are vectors for disease at higher rates than meats? If one is to live their life fearful of anything that has been shown to, at one time or another, cause an undesirable effect in another, then they should essentially kill themselves.

The arguments of the vegans/anti-technology wackos is essentially the fear of knowledge and reason. They are essentially advocates of caveman mentality and because of this they react as a caveman in the presence of fire.

 

[kidvilla]

AN INCH TALLER OR AT LEAST THE SAME HEIGHT

First off, i apologize for the delayed response as i was particularly busy today, so had little time to prepare this information for you. Now let me address your questions:

Growth retardation from food? No, what i stated earlier was not that food (or meat) is "not" necessarily retarding growth (its nutrition helps and its androgens hurt) --and i apologize if i didn't clarify--but rather 2 points:
1. That androgens in meats actually speed up maturation of growth plates (epiphyseal tissues) and in this way, will limit maximum growth. a study from LLU explained how non-vegetarian children grew an inch taller than their vegetarian counterparts (1). is it purely the androgens in meat? no, i doubt it's just that, but as the study stated, the only difference was meat consumption, but it's a well known fact that out of a population of vegetarians and an equal population of omnivores, the vegetarians "have a better understanding (and thus practice healthier eating) of dietary requirements than does the general population."(2)

Gary Fraser, MBChB, PhD,a professor of medicine and epidemiology at Loma Linda (Calif.) University. also says:
"It wasn't just diet that made the vegetarians so much healthier, Fraser says. "A vegetarian is much more than someone who doesn't eat meat," he points out. "They're much more likely to eat legumes, exercise a bit more, are more health conscious." (and he further says that unlike comments that vegetarians and vegans are "unhealthy, sickly, or near-death, vegetarians live up to 10 years longer. (3)

Another study shows how young women reach menarche sooner and thus attain lesser heights because of the quicker maturation for which meat consumption is implicated (4)

2. That increased meat consumption is not the reason for the increase in height in populations, but rather better overall nutrition, regardless of meat studies done in India and Hong Kong show how in areas where children do not eat meat, will still grow to at least the same height as meat eaters (5), and that both groups (vegetarians and omnivores) have increased in height due to improved nutrition, regardless of meat consumption.(6,7)

now i don't want folks to think that im saying that ALL the studies say this, as everybody knows that there is no such thing as all studies pointing one way, so here is one study which contradicts me (8), but a quick search of medical journals will show that the number of contradictory reports are outnumbered by 10 to 1 by the reports which state that veg versus omni eaters have no difference in height.

and this is not to even count the hundreds (yes, i said hundreds, i can post a few more if desired) of studies which prove such things as vegetarians have a significantly lower incidence of heart disease, (9) that omnivores are more likely to go crazy from eating meat (10)(crazy is my term, actually its dementia, read the article, its quite fascinating), less chance of Parkinson’s disease (11), and many other ailments for which i can find at least 6 citations from very respected (and uninterested) scientific bodies.

as for foodborne illness being the same in vegetables and meats (and sometimes higher in root and leafy vegetables), you are completely right, and i agree with you, vegetables are just as implicated in foodborne illness as are meats, but even then, vegetarians are actually far less likely to develop illnesses from vegetables due to the benefits derived from eating vegetables, in effect meaning that although plants may be just as risky as meats, a vegetarian is more immune to them (12) this means they have little to fear when it comes to vegetables, unlike most omnivores who are super-dependent on cleanliness. Even asthma and allergies are lesser in vegans (

As for wackos, well, i agree with you because the only other people who seem to be as proselytizing as Jehovah’s Witnesses to me (they visit me regularly a couple of times a week) are my vegetarian friends. As a matter of fact, i love to get into arguments with them about their beliefs simply because (maybe for the same reason some other folks might want to argue with me on this) their persistence and guilt-trips can be rather annoying. But let us not confuse our personal irritations with them for a true assessment of their intelligence or emotional health since it is also well known that (im sure some folks will not like this one either) equal populations of vegetarians have higher IQ scores and higher intelligence (weighted in different ways) than the general population (14, 15)

 

[kidvilla]

Heres the missing info

sorry, where was my head, it is not apropros to make hyperbolous claims like that without citations.... here they are ....

===============references==============
(1) Sabaté J, Lindsted KD, Harris RD, Sanchez A. Attained height of lacto-ovo vegetarian children and adolescents. Eur J Clin Nutr 1991; 45:51-8. http://www.llu.edu/llu/health/abstracts/abstracts2.htm#220
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1855500&dopt=Abstract

(2) Eur J Clin Nutr 2000 May;54(5):443-9
Nutritional intakes of vegetarian populations in France.
Leblanc JC, Yoon H, Kombadjian A, Verger P. Institut National Agronomique Paris-Grignon, Laboratoire de Biologie et Nutrition Humaine, 16 rue Claude Bernard 75005 Paris, France. CONCLUSION: Our results suggest that vegetarians have a better understanding of dietary requirements than does the general population.

(3) Arch Intern Med 2001 Jul 9;161(13):1645-52
Ten years of life: Is it a matter of choice?
Fraser GE, Shavlik DJ. Center for Health Research, School of Public Health, Loma Linda University, Nichol Hall, Room 2008, Loma Linda, CA 92350, USA. [email protected]
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/35/1728_84376

(4) Med Hypotheses 1981 Nov;7(11):1339-45
A hypothesis on the etiological role of diet on age of menarche.
Sanchez A, Kissinger DG, Phillips RI

(5) Eur J Clin Nutr 1997 Jan;51(1):20-5. A longitudinal study of the growth of matched pairs of vegetarian and omnivorous children, aged 7-11 years, in the north-west of England. Nathan I, Hackett AF, Kirby S. CONCLUSIONS: The results suggest that these children who followed a meat free diet and conventional lifestyles grew at least as well as children who ate meat.

(6) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11984604&dopt=Abstract
J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab 2001 Jun;14(6):757-65. Critical growth phases for adult shortness in Hong Kong Chinese. Luo ZC, Low LC, Karlberg J. CONCLUSIONS: The impact of subnormal growth in any phase on adult shortness is similar in privileged and underprivileged populations. The much higher prevalence of subnormal growth and consequently adult short stature in developing countries is likely mainly attributable to adverse extrinsic or environmental influences.

(7) Bull World Health Organ 2002;80(3):189-95 , Growth performance of affluent Indian children is similar to that in developed countries. Bhandari N, Bahl R, Taneja S, de Onis M, Bhan MK. CONCLUSION: The children in this affluent population were close to the NCHS/WHO reference population with regard to anthropometric indicators. The subpopulation with higher parental education had even better growth.

(8) Prev Med 1992 Jan;21(1):33-52. Does a reduced fat diet cause retardation in child growth? Kaplan RM, Toshima MT. CONCLUSION. We conclude that dietary fat restriction may have some small, but measurable, effects upon growth.

(9) Am J Clin Nutr 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):516S-524S
Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies.
Key TJ, Fraser GE, Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Beral V, Reeves G, Burr ML, Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R, Kuzma JW, Mann J, McPherson K. Imperial Cancer Research Fund, Cancer Epidemiology Unit, Oxford, United Kingdom. [email protected]
excerpt: in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans

(10) Neuroepidemiology 1993;12(1):28-36
The incidence of dementia and intake of animal products: preliminary findings from the Adventist Health Study.
Giem P, Beeson WL, Fraser GE Department of Preventive Medicine, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, CA 92350. -------
The matched subjects who ate meat (including poultry and fish) were more than twice as likely to become demented as their vegetarian counterparts (relative risk 2.18, p = 0.065) and the discrepancy was further widened (relative risk 2.99, p = 0.048) when past meat consumption was taken into account

(10) Med Hypotheses 2001 Sep;57(3):318-23
Does a vegan diet reduce risk for Parkinson's disease?
McCarty MF. Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California 92109, USA.

(12) APMIS 1995 Nov;103(11):818-22
Inhibition of growth of Proteus mirabilis and Escherichia coli in urine in response to fasting and vegetarian diet.
Kjeldsen-Kragh J, Kvaavik E, Bottolfs M, Lingaas E. Institute of Immunology and Rheumatology, National Hospital, Oslo, Norway.

(13) J Asthma 1985;22(1):45-55 Vegan regimen with reduced medication in the treatment of bronchial asthma. Lindahl O, Lindwall L, Spangberg A, Stenram A, Ockerman PA. EXCERPT: "...therapy with vegan food for 1 yr. In almost all cases, medication was withdrawn or drastically reduced. There was a significant decrease in asthma symptoms."

(14) J Am Diet Assoc 1980 Feb;76(2):142-7. Mental age and I.Q. of predominantly vegetarian children. Dwyer JT, Miller LG, Arduino NL, Andrew EM, Dietz WH Jr, Reed JC, Reed HB Jr.

(15) Pediatr Clin North Am 1995 Aug;42(4):955-65 Vegetarian diets and children. Sanders TA.Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, King's College London, United Kingdom. excerpt:"follow-up studies have reported higher-than-average intelligence quotients among older macrobiotic children."

 

[Baoh]

Androgens don't accelerate epiphyseal closure. Estrogens do.

 

[kidvilla]

estrogens don't make you short

although some estrogens may do so (especially synthetic ones), most do not accelerate closure, but rather insure that it is maximized (taller), but more importantly, it's not that estrogen limits growth, but rather an imbalance in estrogen that is the problem (and the greatest problem is low estrogen levels, or resistance to it), as even androgen consumption accelerates this... because regulating it (and in some cases, supplementing with it) will increase growth
(1)J Mol Endocrinol 2001 Oct;27(2):249-53 Expression of aromatase in the human growth plate. Oz OK, Millsaps R, Welch R, Birch J, Zerwekh JE.Department of Radiology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas, Texas, USA.

this one says estrogen is used to treat short folks (help them grow)
(2) Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi 2001 Oct;21(10):732-5.
[Clinical study on treatment of female idiopathic precocious puberty with combined therapy of Chinese medicine and megestrol acetate] Cai DP, Ji ZY, Shi YM.Pediatric Hospital, Fudan University, Shanghai 200032

this one says that those who could not aromatize estrogen (such as a-gonadal or hermaprhroditic boys) grow very tall as a result of this lack of estrogen
(3) J Mol Endocrinol 2001 Oct;27(2):249-53 Expression of aromatase in the human growth plate. Oz OK, Millsaps R, Welch R, Birch J, Zerwekh JE. Department of Radiology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas, Texas, USA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10732324&dopt=Abstract

even more proof of estrogens being good for growth? this man is resistant to estrogen and suffers the same fate that castrattis do
(4) N Engl J Med 1994 Oct 20;331(16):1056-61.N Engl J Med 1995 Jan 12;332(2):131 ...N Engl J Med. 1994 Oct 20;331(16):1088-9.
Estrogen resistance caused by a mutation in the estrogen-receptor gene in a man.Smith EP, Boyd J, Frank GR, Takahashi H, Cohen RM, Specker B, Williams TC, Lubahn DB, Korach KS.


and this one says androgens stunt growth (yes, in animals, but the cellular structure of osteoblasts is the same in all mammals and thus applies across the board)
(5) 1: Acta Vet Scand 1997;38(1):59-67.Effect of 19-norandrostenololylaurate on serum testosterone concentration, libido, and closure of distal radial growth plate in colts. Koskinen E, Katila T.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9129347&dopt=Abstract

even more general, people with higher hormones in general (both androgens and estrogens) also are shorter
(6) Wien Klin Wochenschr 1995;107(14):413-7 [Long-term experiences with a long-acting gonadotropin releasing hormone analog in therapy of central precocious puberty: effect on body growth]Hofmann-Ehrhart B, Schulz U, Kluge M, Wandl-Vergesslich K, Waldhauser F.Ambulanz fur Sexualentwicklung, Universitatsklinik fur Kinder- und Jugendheikunde, Wien.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7668000&dopt=Abstract