MIssing Reps on 5x5

[mm107]

There are several issues. The first is discussed explicitly on my site: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm



The second issue is that people flat out do far far far more benching than pulling or rowing or squatting. Meaning they come to the program having put in a lot of time on the bench and they have a harder time pushing that lift up simply because it's been trained so much more already and likely chest/pressing has been an overwhelming focus so workload for presses and chest is flat or decreased while squatting and pulling is increased. It's not only a pure workload issue, just people being a lot more used to benching a lot where almost no one is really pounding 15 sets of squats a week and 10 sets of rows (specificity facilitates the adaptation and you work specifically on several very effective movements, unfortunately people's previous training is drastically out of balance).

Third issue. People put in a true heavy 5RM (i.e. minimum warmup and volume beforehand) and that spreadsheet assumes you will equal it with 4 ramped sets beforehand by week 4. For most people this isn't an issue. For every lift besides the bench, this hasn't been an issue. But for bench - it comes up because people like to put an absolute best case scenario number there.

Forth issue, combined with all the rest most people are still trying to make 5lbs jumps in Bench PRs every week rather than use the right percents. That just doesn't work all that well when you take all the other factors above into account.

This is stuff I probably need to address (I've already handled the weight loss/cut). If people get stuck early on a lift it's always the bench, never ever, even once have I seen an instance where it's anything else. This is the fault of current culture rather than programming.

I actually understand why people "miss" on the 5x5 better now. The absolute best 5rm is probably the highest they have ever hit. Good point.

What happens when we do miss it? Do you we need to revamp our numbers? Just wondering.

 

[Madcow2]

I actually understand why people "miss" on the 5x5 better now. The absolute best 5rm is probably the highest they have ever hit. Good point.

What happens when we do miss it? Do you we need to revamp our numbers? Just wondering.

EDIT - just noticed you weren't the original poster so this got answered in the context of his issues. You guys both have short alpha-numeric names.

It depends on the circumstance. In your's I'd probably take last week's successful numbers as a current 5RM. At week 4 it's probably not worth pushing on it for another week or so to see if you can't improve it a bit more. You are also dropping weight, that's an issue. If you've been a bench and press maniac up to this point, maybe there's something else you could put in like inclines and just start light and keep them going up. To be honest, I don't know what you bench but the increments might be a factor i.e. if you are only working with 2.5lbs as your smallest plate then a lift needs to be at least 200lbs for that to be 2.5% or less (i.e. 5lbs total increase/200lbs lift).

Either way I think you should reset it with a nice extra margin since you are dropping weight. This kind of stuff is very individual. This is the art of training and choosing the best option requires a lot of knowledge about the individual (no one likely has this knowledge but you although you really need to know a lot about a lift and programming to employ it) as well as a solid fundamental understanding of the options available (safe to assume you aren't at that point yet). Essentially that leaves you with making the best logical choice you can and seeing what happens. This is how people learn and we've all been there.

 

[djeclipse]

Madcow pretty much said everything and then some.

But form my experience with the linear 5x5, being conservative will give you the best results in the long run.

I had the best success my second run through when I followed the program to a T and put my current 5 rep maxes at week 5 instead of week 4. That resulted in bench PR's for bench for 5 straight weeks totaling 22.5lbs. Well worth the extra wait at the beginning of the program.

mm107, it seems like 2 weeks ago you were just finding out your 5 rep maxes, and now all of a sudden you're in week 4 and failing. Not to mention you have been adding in a lot of extra stuff like incline dumbells etc. It seems like you never really gave the program a chance before you started changing it.

Maybe start over and be conservative about your 5 rep maxes and start the program over and run it as is. It will be well worth it in the long run.

 

[Madcow2]

That's absolutely true, being conservative generally puts someone in the range of 'REALLY helping' to worst case 'zero difference' - I actually have never once heard anyone complain who took it more slowly. Taking 2 extra weeks to ramp up is nothing and just about everyone generally reports solid results during this period anyway (so non-PR and submax work seems to be effective all on it's own, something even people using the periodized version here would attest to since the first 3 weeks a lot of people really notice solid results from pure workload). Rushing to your 5RM in the best case scenario will have only the most marginal of positive impact (likely requiring a novice lifter for this) while it can lead to a total devastation of the program on the bad side (and this is not uncommon for people ramping too fast especially those with some decent experience and who have trained a given lift(s) for a while). Think about that varriance and where you'd rather fall. Much better to play it safe in almost every case and I think in your case we already know how that went.

And if you've been adding extra work...well, I guess you know why I have that disclaimer cautioning people not to screw with the program. Those that want to add thing invariably don't know enough about training and programing to make good logical decisions that won't get in the way. One of the things that should really stand out is that the overwhelming majority of the people who have enjoyed success were conservative, didn't alter the program, and during subsequent runs are pretty hesitant to mess with it. That's why this program is good for teaching, it gives people a first hand experience with proper planning, progression, patience, and leveraging specificity around a core of very effective lifts. Once those concepts are driven home with success, people have a much easier time designing programs themselves and understanding why things work. Of course, if you screw with it or rush and it blows up, there you go.

 

[mm107]

Madcow pretty much said everything and then some.

But form my experience with the linear 5x5, being conservative will give you the best results in the long run.

I had the best success my second run through when I followed the program to a T and put my current 5 rep maxes at week 5 instead of week 4. That resulted in bench PR's for bench for 5 straight weeks totaling 22.5lbs. Well worth the extra wait at the beginning of the program.

mm107, it seems like 2 weeks ago you were just finding out your 5 rep maxes, and now all of a sudden you're in week 4 and failing. Not to mention you have been adding in a lot of extra stuff like incline dumbells etc. It seems like you never really gave the program a chance before you started changing it.

Maybe start over and be conservative about your 5 rep maxes and start the program over and run it as is. It will be well worth it in the long run.

LOL DJ! YOU AND THIS 2 week on my 5x5! lol. I scrubbed out the first week, not fully skipped just did scrubb out. 2-3 week followed to a T, just included 1-2 accessory work in. Maybe your right the accessory work might be too much, but i think i can heal quicker then others due to my on point die/sleep. BUT MAYBE im wrong. THE ONLY reason i missed my last set of 5x5 on my bench, was honestly because a lack of focus. I got involved into a convo at the gym with a few buddies and really got thrown off my training. Thats honestly it. I didnt get tight i just jumped on, and my partner even half assed the lift by lifting early before i was ready. So thats my excuse for missing, i was just asking about the misses because if i miss in week 7 i wanted to know what to do.

I DEF understand what your telling me DJ, at first the program didnt seem to hard, but i realized it. ESPECIALLY after week 3. Im extremely happy with everything else, as usualy as madcow said i think the ONLY lift i will have some trouble with would be the BENCH. I dropped all stupid work such as Fly's, etc. Only accesory work i include now is: Incline dumbels for 20 reps on monday w/ Hypers. Wednesday accessory is the chinup, and fridays accessory work is dips. Not too much fluff work. BIGT, said i should try the incline if i want to see how i respond, and so far i dont think its killing me too much.

Thanks DJ you are on point brother, you really know ur shit and really pay attention! Thanks bro!

 

[djeclipse]

lol, I'm just reiterating the fact that being conservative especially for the bench is the way to go. I made that same mistake my first run though and failed right away, only added 12.5lbs to my pressing movements. It would be nice to see you put together a good string of PR's in a row.

As for rest between sets, madcow says to take as much time as you need to make the lift. Its not about the pump, it's about making the lift. It takes a bit of getting used to as in the past I was always wanting to get that set in as soon as possible so I wouldn't loose my "pump".

 

[djeclipse]

Also fomr madcows website about cutting, it relaly helped put things into prospective when I started cutting.

Basically, bodyweight (even all fat) has an effect on physics/leverage/mechanics (or simply strength performance). If you are dropping weight, your targeted 5RM is actually a PR if you drop bodyweight by the time you get there. So you can start lighter or make smaller jumps on the way up. This headwind is more pronounced for more experienced lifters.

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadco...act_of_Weight_Gain/Loss_and_Experience_Level:

 

[Protobuilder]

people flat out do far far far more benching than pulling or rowing or squatting. Meaning they come to the program having put in a lot of time on the bench and they have a harder time pushing that lift up simply because it's been trained so much more already and likely chest/pressing has been an overwhelming focus so workload for presses and chest is flat or decreased while squatting and pulling is increased.

That's a very good point and one i've not heard mentioned before. Makes a ton of sense though. Almost everyone has pushed hard on bench. Face it, it's easier to lie down and push really hard than to do a true 1RM squat and do it regularly, as guys can do w/ the bench. And nobody has really worked & trained their 1RM row, guaranteed. LoL

So you come to the program w/ a solid, well-trained PR on bench, but the squats and rows are usually . . . guesswork, or maybe barely-trained maxes. Makes sense that it's harder to budge that bench number.

 

[BiggT]

Plus what you'll see is that the lower body can really take a beating with high workloads, and with the olympic squat and front squat (not brutal on the posterior chain) most people actually NEED the volume and frequency, very rarely will you see a squat plateaued in the average trainee because it is trained too often, most gym rats need more work on the squat (and on the same note most gym rats have been plateaued on the bench for 5 years running because they come in every Monday and hammer away at it).....upper body pressing tends to peter out quicker and adding 5lbs a week much less 10 becomes tough in well-trained individuals......squatting is the more important lift, if somebody is conditioned to hard, frequent squats and pulls, they can lay down on the flat bench at anytime after the training cycle (maybe on an upper/lower split for example) and build it up.....the total body explosion so to speak is the result of the squats and pulls, people who have a hard time just trusting the program just need to do it for a little while and it will all come together.

 

[al420]

Thanks again to everyone that posted. It is so helpful to have such a tremendous knowledge base about a specific program.

I stalled on my final set today of Deads - only got 4 reps. I may have cut this cutter short and start my bulk soon!