MIssing Reps on 5x5

[al420]

It has almost happened on a couple workouts and yesterday finally did. I am 4 weeks into a 5x5 and my bench press stalled out on set 4 yesterday. First 3 sets were cake, but on set 4 hit 4 reps and for set 5 kept the weight the same and only hit 2 reps. Not sure why, maybe diet on Sunday wasn't what it shoud be intake wise.

Any thoughts? Bench has always been lagging for me....always!

 

[The Shadow]

I always did 5x5 like this


2 sets of 5 for warmup


3 working sets - is that what you are doing??

 

[mm107]

I always did 5x5 like this


2 sets of 5 for warmup


3 working sets - is that what you are doing??

i think hes following a 5x5 plan, that has periodilation method for putting weight on the bar.

I failed yesterday on my 5 set of 5, with 210. I only failed because i lost my pump and mentally wasnt tight or focused. But if you KEEP missing i would re-do the bench numbers

 

[Cynical Simian]

There are a lot of different "5x5s" in addition to the 5 sets at the same weight version. Dan John has an article on it (on T-Nation in addition to his site) if anyone's interested.

Regardless, the "rule" with the 5x5-style training is not to increase the weight until you get all of the reps.

It sounds like you're doing a ramped version to a single top set (correct me if I'm wrong), which makes it odd that you failed on your fourth set. Do you think you might've overestimated your bench max when setting up the program?

Here are a couple things that might be worth trying:
1. Try a less aggressive ramp if your wamups are leaving you with nothing in the tank for the top set.
2. Make a smaller jump over your previous PR (since this was week 4, I assume it was your first attempt at a new PR).

You could also just keep the bench portion of the workout identical next week if you think it might've just been an off day or whatever.

And mm, lack of focus or mental mistakes can cause you to miss a lift. Lack of pump can't.

 

[Tweakle]

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81043&postcount=20

^^ a great post about how to approach a 5x5

5 sets with the same weight isn't the greatest idea

 

[The Shadow]

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81043&postcount=20

^^ a great post about how to approach a 5x5

5 sets with the same weight isn't the greatest idea

Agreed...but imo - neither is doing a semi-pyramid to a top end set....to me that isnt a 5x5 as the volume is too low

 

[Madcow2]

See the 2nd quoted piece. There is no static right or best way and certainly not one for every experience level (for all programming not necessariuly 5x5 specific), but this gives some insight into a more macro process of progression, how programming is altered, where ramped sets of 5 might be used and what comes when stalled. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235. Probably best to consider either of the two templates I've provided as frozen snapshots in time that I've put together to fit most of the people who come to BBing forums to provide a generic starting point and a good frame of reference for learning about programming.

Of course, if someone was using my linear template and bombed out on their 4th set in week 4 - they need to rethink their 5RM, whether it is actually viable with the initial sets and added volume (i.e. something that is too individual and training age related to account for in a generic template) along with rest periods between sets. If this one was in the periodized template with 5 straight sets of 5 and 4 week loading block - no big deal as week 4 should be pushing near or at the limit and during heavy loading one can see performance decrease - and you are going to be deloading immenently anyway. But if this was the linear, it should have been cake until now with only the top set i.e. last set of the 5 in week 4 being challenging. No real way to tell without more info.

 

[oso0690]

You're back madcow??? Good info everyone

 

[al420]

Thanks to everyone that replied. I appreciate the knowledge base that replied...I was pumped to see the first few replies and then shocked to see the man behind my program..Madcow!

So I am doing a linear 5x5. My calories are down, round 2500-2700 daily. I get 3 meals in before I lift. Diet is clean, carbs are coming from oats brown rice and Gatorade, protein is mostly chicken and whey, little steak. I am trying to cut down some BF right now but wanted to do a 5x5 to work on core lifts. When my BF is down another 6-8% I will be visiting the dark side for 10 weeks.

Do cardio on off days - usually a spin class in the AM and Boxing/Jiu-Jitsu in the PM. Run on Saturdays.

 

[Madcow2]

There are several issues. The first is discussed explicitly on my site: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Impact of Weight Gain/Loss and Experience Level:

I will also note that weight gain can be considered a tail wind to the progression. Meaning, you will have an easier time getting stronger and making a longer progression if you are eating enough to drive bodyweight upward during the program (i.e. also known as bulking or trying to add muscle, see caloric excess). This does not however mean that you should start heavier simply because you are planning to gain weight. The effect is typically not that strong and this is the best way to blow this program up - always better to take more time than less. Another tailwind would be experience level, someone much closer to their ultimate potential is going to run out of steam and have to settle for shorter progressions than someone with 6 months of training under their belt.


A headwind would be dieting or cutting. If you are really making an effort to lose weight and using this program you might want to start significantly lighter or make smaller jumps week to week (i.e. take 6 weeks to reach your current 5RM rather than 4 weeks). Basically the same 200lbs 5 rep max squat at a bodyweight of 200 is a stronger lift at a lighter bodyweight. So if you are dropping bodyweight, you probably want think about starting lower because your 5RM estimates won't be accurate as your bodyweight changes and to get a reasonable shot at progression you don't want to be starting too high (that said, the less experienced the lifter they might have enough tailwind from their junior amount of experience to override a fair degree of headwind from bodyweight dropping).

The second issue is that people flat out do far far far more benching than pulling or rowing or squatting. Meaning they come to the program having put in a lot of time on the bench and they have a harder time pushing that lift up simply because it's been trained so much more already and likely chest/pressing has been an overwhelming focus so workload for presses and chest is flat or decreased while squatting and pulling is increased. It's not only a pure workload issue, just people being a lot more used to benching a lot where almost no one is really pounding 15 sets of squats a week and 10 sets of rows (specificity facilitates the adaptation and you work specifically on several very effective movements, unfortunately people's previous training is drastically out of balance).

Third issue. People put in a true heavy 5RM (i.e. minimum warmup and volume beforehand) and that spreadsheet assumes you will equal it with 4 ramped sets beforehand by week 4. For most people this isn't an issue. For every lift besides the bench, this hasn't been an issue. But for bench - it comes up because people like to put an absolute best case scenario number there.

Forth issue, combined with all the rest most people are still trying to make 5lbs jumps in Bench PRs every week rather than use the right percents. That just doesn't work all that well when you take all the other factors above into account.

This is stuff I probably need to address (I've already handled the weight loss/cut). If people get stuck early on a lift it's always the bench, never ever, even once have I seen an instance where it's anything else. This is the fault of current culture rather than programming.

 

[mm107]

There are several issues. The first is discussed explicitly on my site: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm



The second issue is that people flat out do far far far more benching than pulling or rowing or squatting. Meaning they come to the program having put in a lot of time on the bench and they have a harder time pushing that lift up simply because it's been trained so much more already and likely chest/pressing has been an overwhelming focus so workload for presses and chest is flat or decreased while squatting and pulling is increased. It's not only a pure workload issue, just people being a lot more used to benching a lot where almost no one is really pounding 15 sets of squats a week and 10 sets of rows (specificity facilitates the adaptation and you work specifically on several very effective movements, unfortunately people's previous training is drastically out of balance).

Third issue. People put in a true heavy 5RM (i.e. minimum warmup and volume beforehand) and that spreadsheet assumes you will equal it with 4 ramped sets beforehand by week 4. For most people this isn't an issue. For every lift besides the bench, this hasn't been an issue. But for bench - it comes up because people like to put an absolute best case scenario number there.

Forth issue, combined with all the rest most people are still trying to make 5lbs jumps in Bench PRs every week rather than use the right percents. That just doesn't work all that well when you take all the other factors above into account.

This is stuff I probably need to address (I've already handled the weight loss/cut). If people get stuck early on a lift it's always the bench, never ever, even once have I seen an instance where it's anything else. This is the fault of current culture rather than programming.

I actually understand why people "miss" on the 5x5 better now. The absolute best 5rm is probably the highest they have ever hit. Good point.

What happens when we do miss it? Do you we need to revamp our numbers? Just wondering.

 

[Madcow2]

I actually understand why people "miss" on the 5x5 better now. The absolute best 5rm is probably the highest they have ever hit. Good point.

What happens when we do miss it? Do you we need to revamp our numbers? Just wondering.

EDIT - just noticed you weren't the original poster so this got answered in the context of his issues. You guys both have short alpha-numeric names.

It depends on the circumstance. In your's I'd probably take last week's successful numbers as a current 5RM. At week 4 it's probably not worth pushing on it for another week or so to see if you can't improve it a bit more. You are also dropping weight, that's an issue. If you've been a bench and press maniac up to this point, maybe there's something else you could put in like inclines and just start light and keep them going up. To be honest, I don't know what you bench but the increments might be a factor i.e. if you are only working with 2.5lbs as your smallest plate then a lift needs to be at least 200lbs for that to be 2.5% or less (i.e. 5lbs total increase/200lbs lift).

Either way I think you should reset it with a nice extra margin since you are dropping weight. This kind of stuff is very individual. This is the art of training and choosing the best option requires a lot of knowledge about the individual (no one likely has this knowledge but you although you really need to know a lot about a lift and programming to employ it) as well as a solid fundamental understanding of the options available (safe to assume you aren't at that point yet). Essentially that leaves you with making the best logical choice you can and seeing what happens. This is how people learn and we've all been there.

 

[djeclipse]

Madcow pretty much said everything and then some.

But form my experience with the linear 5x5, being conservative will give you the best results in the long run.

I had the best success my second run through when I followed the program to a T and put my current 5 rep maxes at week 5 instead of week 4. That resulted in bench PR's for bench for 5 straight weeks totaling 22.5lbs. Well worth the extra wait at the beginning of the program.

mm107, it seems like 2 weeks ago you were just finding out your 5 rep maxes, and now all of a sudden you're in week 4 and failing. Not to mention you have been adding in a lot of extra stuff like incline dumbells etc. It seems like you never really gave the program a chance before you started changing it.

Maybe start over and be conservative about your 5 rep maxes and start the program over and run it as is. It will be well worth it in the long run.

 

[Madcow2]

That's absolutely true, being conservative generally puts someone in the range of 'REALLY helping' to worst case 'zero difference' - I actually have never once heard anyone complain who took it more slowly. Taking 2 extra weeks to ramp up is nothing and just about everyone generally reports solid results during this period anyway (so non-PR and submax work seems to be effective all on it's own, something even people using the periodized version here would attest to since the first 3 weeks a lot of people really notice solid results from pure workload). Rushing to your 5RM in the best case scenario will have only the most marginal of positive impact (likely requiring a novice lifter for this) while it can lead to a total devastation of the program on the bad side (and this is not uncommon for people ramping too fast especially those with some decent experience and who have trained a given lift(s) for a while). Think about that varriance and where you'd rather fall. Much better to play it safe in almost every case and I think in your case we already know how that went.

And if you've been adding extra work...well, I guess you know why I have that disclaimer cautioning people not to screw with the program. Those that want to add thing invariably don't know enough about training and programing to make good logical decisions that won't get in the way. One of the things that should really stand out is that the overwhelming majority of the people who have enjoyed success were conservative, didn't alter the program, and during subsequent runs are pretty hesitant to mess with it. That's why this program is good for teaching, it gives people a first hand experience with proper planning, progression, patience, and leveraging specificity around a core of very effective lifts. Once those concepts are driven home with success, people have a much easier time designing programs themselves and understanding why things work. Of course, if you screw with it or rush and it blows up, there you go.

 

[mm107]

Madcow pretty much said everything and then some.

But form my experience with the linear 5x5, being conservative will give you the best results in the long run.

I had the best success my second run through when I followed the program to a T and put my current 5 rep maxes at week 5 instead of week 4. That resulted in bench PR's for bench for 5 straight weeks totaling 22.5lbs. Well worth the extra wait at the beginning of the program.

mm107, it seems like 2 weeks ago you were just finding out your 5 rep maxes, and now all of a sudden you're in week 4 and failing. Not to mention you have been adding in a lot of extra stuff like incline dumbells etc. It seems like you never really gave the program a chance before you started changing it.

Maybe start over and be conservative about your 5 rep maxes and start the program over and run it as is. It will be well worth it in the long run.

LOL DJ! YOU AND THIS 2 week on my 5x5! lol. I scrubbed out the first week, not fully skipped just did scrubb out. 2-3 week followed to a T, just included 1-2 accessory work in. Maybe your right the accessory work might be too much, but i think i can heal quicker then others due to my on point die/sleep. BUT MAYBE im wrong. THE ONLY reason i missed my last set of 5x5 on my bench, was honestly because a lack of focus. I got involved into a convo at the gym with a few buddies and really got thrown off my training. Thats honestly it. I didnt get tight i just jumped on, and my partner even half assed the lift by lifting early before i was ready. So thats my excuse for missing, i was just asking about the misses because if i miss in week 7 i wanted to know what to do.

I DEF understand what your telling me DJ, at first the program didnt seem to hard, but i realized it. ESPECIALLY after week 3. Im extremely happy with everything else, as usualy as madcow said i think the ONLY lift i will have some trouble with would be the BENCH. I dropped all stupid work such as Fly's, etc. Only accesory work i include now is: Incline dumbels for 20 reps on monday w/ Hypers. Wednesday accessory is the chinup, and fridays accessory work is dips. Not too much fluff work. BIGT, said i should try the incline if i want to see how i respond, and so far i dont think its killing me too much.

Thanks DJ you are on point brother, you really know ur shit and really pay attention! Thanks bro!

 

[djeclipse]

lol, I'm just reiterating the fact that being conservative especially for the bench is the way to go. I made that same mistake my first run though and failed right away, only added 12.5lbs to my pressing movements. It would be nice to see you put together a good string of PR's in a row.

As for rest between sets, madcow says to take as much time as you need to make the lift. Its not about the pump, it's about making the lift. It takes a bit of getting used to as in the past I was always wanting to get that set in as soon as possible so I wouldn't loose my "pump".

 

[djeclipse]

Also fomr madcows website about cutting, it relaly helped put things into prospective when I started cutting.

Basically, bodyweight (even all fat) has an effect on physics/leverage/mechanics (or simply strength performance). If you are dropping weight, your targeted 5RM is actually a PR if you drop bodyweight by the time you get there. So you can start lighter or make smaller jumps on the way up. This headwind is more pronounced for more experienced lifters.

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadco...act_of_Weight_Gain/Loss_and_Experience_Level:

 

[Protobuilder]

people flat out do far far far more benching than pulling or rowing or squatting. Meaning they come to the program having put in a lot of time on the bench and they have a harder time pushing that lift up simply because it's been trained so much more already and likely chest/pressing has been an overwhelming focus so workload for presses and chest is flat or decreased while squatting and pulling is increased.

That's a very good point and one i've not heard mentioned before. Makes a ton of sense though. Almost everyone has pushed hard on bench. Face it, it's easier to lie down and push really hard than to do a true 1RM squat and do it regularly, as guys can do w/ the bench. And nobody has really worked & trained their 1RM row, guaranteed. LoL

So you come to the program w/ a solid, well-trained PR on bench, but the squats and rows are usually . . . guesswork, or maybe barely-trained maxes. Makes sense that it's harder to budge that bench number.

 

[BiggT]

Plus what you'll see is that the lower body can really take a beating with high workloads, and with the olympic squat and front squat (not brutal on the posterior chain) most people actually NEED the volume and frequency, very rarely will you see a squat plateaued in the average trainee because it is trained too often, most gym rats need more work on the squat (and on the same note most gym rats have been plateaued on the bench for 5 years running because they come in every Monday and hammer away at it).....upper body pressing tends to peter out quicker and adding 5lbs a week much less 10 becomes tough in well-trained individuals......squatting is the more important lift, if somebody is conditioned to hard, frequent squats and pulls, they can lay down on the flat bench at anytime after the training cycle (maybe on an upper/lower split for example) and build it up.....the total body explosion so to speak is the result of the squats and pulls, people who have a hard time just trusting the program just need to do it for a little while and it will all come together.

 

[al420]

Thanks again to everyone that posted. It is so helpful to have such a tremendous knowledge base about a specific program.

I stalled on my final set today of Deads - only got 4 reps. I may have cut this cutter short and start my bulk soon!

 

[carlsuen]

great info guys!! this is what's missing on this board.. it's been awhile since priceless info like this are discussed.. gonna mark this thread..

reminds me y i love hanging around the training board.. instead of BTS.. hehe..

 

[mm107]

exactly =]

Yea, madcow i see exactly what you mean by how the bench will most likely stall first due to the years of working it out.

My incline bench(dumbells), has gone up. NEW PR, and i dont feel THAT lift slowing down. I havnt trained incline dumbells like i trained chest, so now after reading what you wrote, i can see why.

My last Pr on my incline dumbells, was 95x5, just blew it out with 100x5 =]

Thanks Madcow, its great you still stop on by over here!

 

[Madcow2]

My last Pr on my incline dumbells, was 95x5, just blew it out with 100x5 =]

Actually just to keep the magnitude in perspective and better understand dumbells and why progression is hard, that 5lbs increase is 5.25%. That's a big PR and if you get even a modest string of those going, that's just awesome. The issue with dumbells is the common 5lbs increment (which is actually 10lbs if you think of both hands and made worse by the lighter relative loads vs. a barbell equivalent). For 100lbs dumbells or greater it's around 5% which is big but not rediculous but for the schmoe using 40's that 5lbs is 12.5%. Just a staggering incremental jump. Some people just never think about this stuff and see it as only the 'next weight' though.

 

[mm107]

Actually just to keep the magnitude in perspective and better understand dumbells and why progression is hard, that 5lbs increase is 5.25%. That's a big PR and if you get even a modest string of those going, that's just awesome. The issue with dumbells is the common 5lbs increment (which is actually 10lbs if you think of both hands and made worse by the lighter relative loads vs. a barbell equivalent). For 100lbs dumbells or greater it's around 5% which is big but not rediculous but for the schmoe using 40's that 5lbs is 12.5%. Just a staggering incremental jump. Some people just never think about this stuff and see it as only the 'next weight' though.

Hell yea, DEF right! I try to round off the numbers, not going up just because my ego wants to. I just found microplates, but they are for the barbell, not the dumbell, so in week 7-8-9, i can use the microplates to actually get to exact weight =]

I see the percentage points, and how its easier to get correct percentages if your lifts are already big. Such as 200+.

I just like incline dumbells, so I really wanted to improve them, PLUS it looks real good, when a 185lbs 20yr old juice free, is bangin 100x5 while the gear users are bangin 90's.

I have so much pride in the program now its crazy, like people are asking me to put them on the program. SORRY ASSHOLES, if you doubt me in week 1 and then by week 4 ur shit out of luck because u should of listened to me.

The program is a great program, im really happy i gave it a try. Ive been lifting constently for 4 months now. (on and off for yrs with sports,etc) And i have seen amazing results. Im really getting shredded up, 6pac coming in, and i was afraid this was a "bulking" only routine. This routine will work for anyone.

 

[al420]

PLUS it looks real good, when a 185lbs 20yr old juice free, is bangin 100x5 while the gear users are bangin 90's.

I was going to K ya and say "who cares what others think" then I remembered how much i seem to at times!!!!!!

 

[Madcow2]

I just found microplates, but they are for the barbell, not the dumbell, so in week 7-8-9, i can use the microplates to actually get to exact weight =]

I don't know how serious you are about dumbells but:

http://www.performbetter.com/detail.aspx_Q_ID_E_3968_A_CategoryID_E_351

For dumbells 1.25lbs magnets. So that gives you 2.5 lbs increments or 5lbs total for both dumbells rather than 10. (the only use of the 2.5lbs platemates are to avoid purchasing dumbells in 5lbs increments and just buying 10s all the way up).

You could also source some magnets yourself and see if you can find one that makes for easy increments. It doesn't really matter too much as long as it is reasonable and gives you 1-2 increments in between.

I have a whole piece on fractional plates and microloading on my site along with the platemates link (and others) and a homebrew solution. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Microloading.htm

 

[mm107]

I don't know how serious you are about dumbells but:

http://www.performbetter.com/detail.aspx_Q_ID_E_3968_A_CategoryID_E_351

For dumbells 1.25lbs magnets. So that gives you 2.5 lbs increments or 5lbs total for both dumbells rather than 10. (the only use of the 2.5lbs platemates are to avoid purchasing dumbells in 5lbs increments and just buying 10s all the way up).

You could also source some magnets yourself and see if you can find one that makes for easy increments. It doesn't really matter too much as long as it is reasonable and gives you 1-2 increments in between.

I have a whole piece on fractional plates and microloading on my site along with the platemates link (and others) and a homebrew solution. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Topics/Microloading.htm

HOLY shit madcow!!!! I have those magnets at my gym!! in fact i got alot of them!!!! Never knew or realized what they were for!!!!! hanks brooooo i neeeeded that!!!

Now i CAN go up 2lbs a time on the dumbell!

Al420, i could care less, lol i started the 5x5with like 100lbs on the bar lol
BUTTTT for somereason i wanna be strong in that lift. MAYBE because its by te cardio area and all the loevely ladies can see me lifting, lol jk

But greatttt i got the magnets i will use them!