How many 1/2-ton gutbusters will it take before the shirts are removed from PL?

[Devastation]

*scratches head*

Rych hit a 1015 this year, yes? Ken Lain hit 715 in 1990, yes?

.

the current world bench record for a 3 lift meet is 837 lbs if i am not mistaken set by garry frank. you'd have to go back to Doug Hepburn in 1954 to get to your 300 lb increase in the bench for a full powermeet. WOW

as far as bench only records go you would have to go back to 1990 for ted arcidi's 718, which is 290 lbs below the record today. if you go back to 1972 the record is now 333 lbs heavier, and it took 34 years for it to go up that much. there was a period between the early 70's and 1990 that the bench record went absolutely NOWHERE, and since 1990 it's been climbing steadily until 2002 or 2003 when we exploded over 800 and all of a sudden 900 fell and now we're over 1000

my point here is if you're coming in guns blazing, don't make a direct comparison about a full meet record not going up as fast as a one lift record. the full meet bench record hasn't went up all that fast either. why? try squatting, 800, 900, 1000, or even 1100 and see what you can max out on the bench maybe 30 mins to an hour later

imo, with or without equipment, 3 out 4 of every top lifter today would still be among the top lifters today. they would still be winning meets, getting the articles in the magazines, their names discussed on the internet. would we have a world bench record at 1000 lbs? no way. but scot mendelson has proven that he has the biggest raw bench out there more then once. his raw bench is bigger then the shirted bench of ted arcidi (mr 718), who also coincidentally wrote a scathing editorial a couple years back on today's bench press shirts even though he wore one to set his record. it's too bad we can't have yesterday's greats compete against today's phenom's and see who is the best, but we can't. so there will be bitching and moaning about the rediculousness of supportive gear as more and more old records get obliterated

and as for magnus, i do believe 100% he could have pulled more had he not did a full meet before hand. how much more? i have no idea

i don't think anyone should have to leave the forum for their arguments just because they have something they believe in and feel strongly about. however, civility should be maintained and the topic should be focused on. don't be aguementative just for arguements sake. sometimes i get the feeling you do that tho


one last thing i noticed, what about a young female lifter who can raw bench 150 lbs, but puts on her single ply rage x and is able to get her 200 lb bench white lighted in a meet? is that not a 30% increase? is this impossible? should all shirts now be outlawed, although the single ply rage x closed back is allowed in the usapl? no. and it's not impossible because i've trained someone in this exact situation and it is within the rules of the IPF.

 

[kethnaab]

imo, with or without equipment, 3 out 4 of every top lifter today would still be among the top lifters today. they would still be winning meets, getting the articles in the magazines, their names discussed on the internet. would we have a world bench record at 1000 lbs? no way.

I agree 100%, and that is my point. i hate arguing about this because it seems like I'm trying to take credit away from the lifters and that is not my intention. I don't blame lifters for using the gear. If they want to hit a 1000-lb bench press, a double-ply denim thing is necessary. I don't blame Rych nor do I blame Mendy. If I was either of them, you damn sure I'd wear one and I'd be seen pimping my Inzer t-shirt everywhere I went in public.

but scot mendelson has proven that he has the biggest raw bench out there more then once.

agreed 100%, I am a big fan of Mendy's and when I saw that crazy BS with the 1049 and the 1031 and the half-ton dump, I got pissed, especially the dump.
I just don't see how dropping 1000 lbs on your ribs and gut is safer than benching raw.
Mendy is the man. In case you haven't seen me post that elsewhere (I have every chance I get, BTW), I figured I'd post it here.

i don't think anyone should have to leave the forum for their arguments just because they have something they believe in and feel strongly about. however, civility should be maintained and the topic should be focused on. don't be aguementative just for arguements sake. sometimes i get the feeling you do that tho

I'm honestly not trying to be. I want to make sure people understand that. I am NOT purposely trying to be inflammatory. I am NOT purposely trying to piss people off. It seems, unfortunately, a talent for which I am quite naturally attuned. :/ I honestly think I've remained civil, I have not attacked anyone personally at all, have I?

Again, I don't blame the lifter. If my name is Garry Frank and I can leave Pasanella 400 lbs under me by using double-ply denim and groove briefs, then I sure as hell will. Fella's gotta make a living, after all.

I just feel that it "cheapens" the records that are being set now.
Chambewy linked a really cool site with all the records for each weight class.

Take a look at those records!

Kaz is getting outsquatted by a 220-lb'er and his bench is about as good as the 165 and 181 guys!! Doesn't that strike you as....just...."wrong"?

11 of the 12 squat records have been broken since 2002, the other one (132-lber) was set in 1999.

11 of the 12 bench press records were broken in 2005/2006. the only one that wasn't has remained since 2003 (the 114-lber)

yet there we are with the deadlift. Only 4 of the 12 records have been broken in the last 7 years. I agree that squatting for a PR then trying to get back out there and pull a PR a few hours later is brutal, but do you HONESTLY think that Benni is the first to sandbag a lift?

I'm going to use the baseball-homeruns analogy. Ruth hit 60, Maris hit 61, McGwire hit 70 then Barry Bonds hit 72 or whatever. Let's say baseball allows aluminum baseball bats in and then some dude (who is probably a damn good hitter anyway) comes along and pops 100 in a season, and all of a sudden 60 home runs, which for 70 years was the holy grail of baseball is now...well...piddly. Utility infielders can hit 60.

Is it HONESTLY because the athletes have gotten better? Isn't that the entire purpose of maintaining records, to give recognition to outstanding athletes?

You like football? In the 70s, "Stick-em" was outlawed because receivers and especially defensive backs were using the gooey shit on their hands to assist them in their pass-catching "ability". The NFL decided that it had no place in sports, so they said "no dice" because it was a strange item that artificially enhanced "performance"

and sports is all about performance, right? Athletic performance, that is.

one last thing i noticed, what about a young female lifter who can raw bench 150 lbs, but puts on her single ply rage x and is able to get her 200 lb bench white lighted in a meet? is that not a 30% increase? is this impossible? should all shirts now be outlawed, although the single ply rage x closed back is allowed in the usapl? no. and it's not impossible because i've trained someone in this exact situation and it is within the rules of the IPF.

Time out! That's not fair! Remeber how you accused me of twisting things to make my point, now you're doing the same!

Are you honestly going to compare the benefit a shirt gives to a 114 lb girl to the benefit a shirt gives to a 300-lb gorilla?

c'mon, 50 lb benefit versus a 300 lb benefit? That is a classic example of the 3 types of lies....lies, damn lies, and statistics!

 

[Chambewy20]

I read the title and the reality your going to have to face is shirts will never leave, nor will the rest of the gear.

The technology is far too advanced, the numbers are too astronomical and anyone will be able to find an organization that will allow them to wear whatever in the hell they come up with.

Nowadays, single ply gear is stronger than double ever used to be, they make it custom, they make it with whatever combination however you want, as long as your willing to pay.

Powerlifting has finally gained some popularity, otherwise guys like you wouldn't be complaining about it on the internet.

 

[kethnaab]

so what is that supposed to mean, "guys like me"?

I assume you meant that as an insult. Not sure why you decide to insult me because I disagree with the wearing of equipment to artificially inflate #s.

"Guys like me" give a crap about preserving some of the tradition of the sport.
"Guys like me" want to see Pasanella and Kaz and Coan live forever...or at least until someone definitely stronger comes along.
"Guys like me" think powerlifting is about powerLIFTING, not powerGEARwearing.
"Guys like me" hate having to explain to someone why those guys can't put their arms down.

 

[Devastation]

at the very least we can all agree that we are allowed to disagree with each other. i do believe that kaz, coan, reinhout, and many other great lifters will always be remembered, in large part due to the great men and women who have kept track and compiled all the records after record throughout the years. the statisticians (sp) will ensure our pl'ing heroes will not be forgotten

but there is a definate evolution in powerlifting starting as early as the late 1980's with the advent of better equipment and most people do recognize that there is a difference between the records of today destroying records from 20+ yrs ago. sometimes the disappointment of losing a record to better equipment gets the better of some of pl'ings legends and they voice their anger over it. that imo does nothing to promote the sport. neither does having 10 national pl'ing organization and 50 more localized one. everyones a champ somewhere

 

[Chambewy20]

Guys like you meaning...

You associate the use of powerlifting gear with using aluminum bats in pro baseball, but never respond when the obvious use of AAS by namely Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire is brought up... and I look at your other posts and would gather you beleive the use of drugs are completely acceptable, just not equipment correct?

You complain about all these squat and bench records being broken within the last 5 or 6 years while ignoring the fact that Roger Maris held the single season home run record from 1961 to 1998, then it was broke again in what 2001? They didn't have aluminum bats but they sure had something didn't they? Again this all was ignored and I've argued this a couple of times with regards to your rants.

You bring up names from the past like Dave Pasanella and Ed Coan as if no one in this day and age will ever be that strong yet you ignore the fact that for a long time, beginning in 1985 I beleive, Ted Arcidi held the world record bench at ~715 using a shirt I might add, it didn't move that much for a while and Scott Mendleson hit more than that with NO GEAR not too long ago, look up the world bench record raw and you will see.

Also you allude to the fact that squat and bench records are broken several times a year yet the deadlift has not moved at all, although you never sought to educate yourself on the fact that the current world record holder in the deadlift at superheavy took token lifts for a squat and bench just to get the record. He didn't even end up with a qualifying total to get in a WPO meet. This is, as Dev state earlier, the third and last lift in a full meet and the toughest to get through and there are no Dead only comps although you never responded to that fact...

So that what "guys like you" ARE to ME...

Conveniently responding to what you want to, bringing up the same old crap time and time again, gear is here, whether in the form of a peice of material you wear or in a syringe you inject, gear is here and it's here to stay...

 

[kethnaab]

You associate the use of powerlifting gear with using aluminum bats in pro baseball, but never respond when the obvious use of AAS by namely Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire is brought up.

actually, I did bring that up somewhere. besides, Mac only used androstenedione.

.. and I look at your other posts and would gather you beleive the use of drugs are completely acceptable, just not equipment correct?

Coan, Kaz, Hatfield, etc. all used juice. Not a big deal. I don't use it, but it's not that big of a deal to me.

You complain about all these squat and bench records being broken within the last 5 or 6 years while ignoring the fact that Roger Maris held the single season home run record from 1961 to 1998, then it was broke again in what 2001? They didn't have aluminum bats but they sure had something didn't they? Again this all was ignored and I've argued this a couple of times with regards to your rants.

well, if it got ignored, it wasn't intentional. I personally think it was BS since Babe and Maris didn't have that benefit. If I never mentioned it before, I'll mention it now.

You bring up names from the past like Dave Pasanella and Ed Coan as if no one in this day and age will ever be that strong yet you ignore the fact that for a long time, beginning in 1985 I beleive, Ted Arcidi held the world record bench at ~715 using a shirt I might add,

I think it was 705, not to be nitpicky.

and he didn't pause. but it was still a pretty damn good lift.

it didn't move that much for a while and Scott Mendleson hit more than that with NO GEAR not too long ago, look up the world bench record raw and you will see.

I have that 715 on video. Yes, Mendy is the MAN!

Also you allude to the fact that squat and bench records are broken several times a year yet the deadlift has not moved at all, although you never sought to educate yourself on the fact that the current world record holder in the deadlift at superheavy took token lifts for a squat and bench just to get the record.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Rych and Mendy are benchers. I recognize that trying to nail a wicked pull 2 hours after a PR squat is beyond description.
However, with few exceptions (Kaz, Pasanella, Coan, Frank), the "specialists" are just that...they're "specialists". Both Arcidi and Ken Lain were "known" to have been able to squat 800 lbs, but how often did they do all-out squat and pull? Not too often. Mendy isn't exactly known for his pull, nor is Rych.

He didn't even end up with a qualifying total to get in a WPO meet. This is, as Dev state earlier, the third and last lift in a full meet and the toughest to get through and there are no Dead only comps although you never responded to that fact...

There are no dead only comps, just push/pulls. I just don't see why this part matters to the specific discussion at hand.

 

[Chambewy20]

Thanks for the response, just payed for the UFC PPV so will get back tomorrow.

 

[plifter]

I guess this is a topic that will always be debated. I think technology is an issue in almost every sport. Contemporary athletes will always have an advantage over the "old timers". I just think the point with bench shirts is the amount in which they assist the lifter. I am much more impressed by Mendelson putting up 715 raw than doing 1000 with the triple ply shirt or whatever kind of shirt he's using.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

would a mod please delete this thread
and please delete all this stupid fuggin threads that wanna debate equipment

its no wonder this forum has gone down hill because the few people that are actually serious about this sport have to spend all their time defending this or defending that..

Delete this shit or jsut get rid of the PL forum all together better yet since we have 80,000 sub forums anyway why not make another forum for people that wanna debate the use of 2-ply gear in powerlfiting..

Personally id rather spend my time lifting weights and adding more plys to my quadruple ply denim/steel combo bench press shirt..

better yet what gauge needle do i need to inject about 1000mg into my Viking shirt-its been slacking a little lately