is ALA all its cracked up too be?

[rangerx83]

I guess it could be looked at as a keto diet but with some of the fat replace by carbs. Those carbs are shuttled to cells, leaving the blood and liver desperate enough to mobilize fat.

The confusing part (that you address above) is whether or not glycogenated muscles metabolize fat at rest. It is GOOD that they have glycogen during a lifting session so that glucose needs are not raised too much which necessitates more catabolism. It also seems likely that muscles burn fat at rest.

What I find interesting is that my ketone output was quite high while dieting, even though I was on a LOW fat diet. Ate primarily carbs and protein. So there's only one place the ketones could have come from and that is from body fat, not dietary fat..

And yes I do think that force-ramming glucose + other nutrients into skeletal muscle primarily while 'starving' fat cells is great for fat loss. ALA does this better than any other fat loss supplement. That is not to say of course that ALA cannot be used in conjuction to other fat loss supplements such as ECA, clen , T3, yohimbine, etc.....


regards,

Rangerx83

 

[pact]

all the talk is about cutting, but wouldn't ALA be quite useful when looking to add size?
i figure it could help shuttle more creatine into muscles while limiting fat gain due to the nutrient partitioning effects.
any comments?
pact

 

[MS]

Pact, ALA would help with a 'bulking' diet if you were insulin resistant. But remember that ALA also dramatically increases GLUT4 surface expression and glucose uptake into adipose cells. So in a high carb/high calorie environment it will just make it easier for your fat cells to store more fat once your muscles are full. In other words, ALA does not 'starve' fat cells, but by lowering your blood glucose rapidly it helps return insulin resistant folks to a more favourable fat-burning state than without ALA.

As an overview, if you are insulin resistant then your body has chronically elevated insulin and blood glucose which favours storage of fat and inhibits fat burning. If you then take ALA and eat carbs, your body will still store any excess carbs (after muscle is filled) in your fat cells, but your body is then able to turn around an burn those excess calories that were just stored. This is on a hypocaloric diet. On the other hand, if calories are in excess, then there is not as much pressure on your fat cells to burn fat, and ALA will merely help fill them up just like your muscle cells. This is true even if you have good insulin sensitivity......too many calories on a bulking diet will be stored as fat. ALA does not increase the calories you burn..........I think the best comparison for ALA and bulking is insulin. If you use insulin and a high calorie diet to "bulk" without lots of AAS and hGH etc...., you will gain LBM AND fat at a great rate, not just LBM.

 

[PaPaPumPPP]

awesome info MS

ttt

 

[pact]

MS, thanks you. would it be fair to assume that you don't believe ala does what many claim when considering excess carbs? i figure that the ala will help shuttle creatine to my muscles. i'm looking to add size but i'm an athlete NOT a bodybuilder so i wouldn't exactly call it "bulking." i'm just looking to add lbm so i'll only add a few more cals.
how does that sound?
thanks
pact

 

[MS]

ALA is a great supp. If I could afford it I would take lots of it every day! But a lot of people take their results from keto dieting and assume it works just as good in all situations. There's nothing WRONG with taking ALA on a high carb, high calorie diet. If you're insulin resistant or using lots of gear it's a good idea to use it in this sitch. BUT, those carb calories don't magically disappear just because you've taken ALA. Once your muscles are full of glycogen, they are full. Even with over-compensation from carb-depleting/loading/ALA, your muscles cannot realistically take up more than 300g of carbs unless you're Ronnie Coleman......so those extra carbs will get burned or stored depending on your energy balance. ALA will help you store them more quickly!

In your case pact, the benefits you get from ALA will depend on your health and what kind of diet you're on. It's a good antioxidant and liver aid no matter what. But if your young, with good slin sensitivity and on a moderate to high carb/low fat mass gain diet, then the chances are it won't make a big diff to your gains. If you said no to any of those three criteria then it may help ya. Maybe try using it just with your post workout carbs and creatine and see how that works? But honestly, my only objection to ALA is the same I have to drugs like hGH. They're both good, but to me they do not have a good cost to benefit ratio. If I were type 2 diabetic or on a CKD, then I would spend the money, otherwise no. My body already has a very efficient system to get carbs into my muscles and reduce post prandial blood glucose.

 

[pact]

MS, well im 25, 6'3" and 198lbs prob about 8-10%. i wouldn't mind my last two abs to come out but i realize i need to get bigger and stronger for hockey (i play professionally in the minors). i just finished clenand that helped my strength but other than that im natural.
i figure to add 500-1000cals a day to my diet once i start the creatine and ala in a couple weeks. i already get 250-300g of protein so those added cals with come mostly from carbs and fats. i just want lbm since im an athlete as opposed to a pure bulking cycle..i need to perform not be fat! do you think by adding 2-3g a day of ala that would ensure that i stay lean? any other thoughts or advice are gladly welcome
thank you
pact

 

[rangerx83]

ALA is a great supp. If I could afford it I would take lots of it every day!

With all due respect, MS notice that therefore you have not actually tried the amount in question, and therefore have no basis to say that it would not work. I have, and it has worked for me and several others

If you've tried that amount/day for 2 weeks and it doesn't lead you to better fat loss, or leaner muscle gains, then I'll concede that there are some people that may not get this benefit. This is leading edge stuff, and there are few studies as to what happens in humans or rats if given high amounts of ALA for extended periods of time, and made to exercise and eat properly. All we have are testimonials from some people. It seems to yield favorable results in most people, based on testimonials on this newsgroup, as wells as some (non-scientific) EF poll data.

You speak from theory I speak from experience. And yes ALA is expensive. But, prices are going down. I would not have been able to afford at all this amount several years ago..But if used properly, for me it's worth it. I will never cycle to bulk or diet down without it again. Ever.


But a lot of people take their results from keto dieting and assume it works just as good in all situations...BUT a lot of people take their results from keto dieting [with ala] and assume it works just as good in all situations.

My experience is that it is great for both dieting down or bulking up. When you diet with ALA you can be in a ketogenic state, eat a decent amount of carbs, have your muscles reasonably full of glycogen and lose mostly fat.When bulking up (especially during a real cycle) with 6g+ ALA/day you can shift the balance to all LBM gains and zero fat gain, or even experience fat loss simultaneously.

There's nothing WRONG with taking ALA on a high carb, high calorie diet.

Yep, probably one the best things you could ever do for a bulking cycle.

If you're insulin resistant or using lots of gear it's a good idea to use it in this sitch.

Yep I agree with you again. Again highly recommended.I speak from experience. We gotta stop this!



BUT, those carb calories don't magically disappear just because you've taken ALA.

Again I agree with you. They haven't magically disappeared! The unused glucose is converted to glycogen and stored in muscles, instead of adipose tissue to a greater degree than it normally would without ALA.

If you eat above maintainance on ALA, a greater portion will be soaked up by skeletal muscle. Since it gets first dibs to soaking up nutrients, very little gets to the adipose tissue. ALA is clearly changing the degree of over-compensation that can occur. It's a true nutrient partitioner. This has been my experience. Sure, it is possible to get fat while you take ALA, but only because you're not taking the right amount, and are not synchronizing with your workouts properly.



.. Once your muscles are full of glycogen, they are full.

Yes, but that's exactly what I'm talking about MS. ALA changes how full they can get before it spills over into fat. I'm beginning to think that it's proportional to the amount of ALA taken, and perhaps to also having ALA circulating in your blood constantly.



Even with over-compensation from carb-depleting/loading/ALA, your muscles cannot realistically take up more than 300g of carbs unless you're Ronnie Coleman.....

MS, I have 220gms carbs just as a preworkout drink (with ALA of course). I also have carbs in the morning, noon, and night as well, not to mention as a postworkout drink. I'm sure I have more than 400-500gms carbs/day. I'm not Ronnie Coleman, and I'm only 187 lbs, 5'11" (@3.5%bf)...


so those extra carbs will get burned or stored depending on your energy balance. ALA will help you store them more quickly!

No argument with you there. I submit that ALA allows the extra carbs and other nutrients to just be partitioned more into your muscles rather than fat. This is only because muscle tissue takes the first shot at soaking up the stuff. It is possible to modulate how much is soaked up, by increasing/decreasing the amount of ALA. This has also been my real-life experience.




In your case pact, the benefits you get from ALA will depend on your health and what kind of diet you're on. It's a good antioxidant and liver aid no matter what. But if your young, with good slin sensitivity and on a moderate to high carb/low fat mass gain diet, then the chances are it won't make a big diff to your gains.
I think that often people will either not take enough ALA for fat loss purposes or lean gain purposes because they are afraid to, or can't afford it, or can't handle the initial lethargy, and then come back and say it does not work.When you do that you have no basis for criticizing a fat loss tool in which requires a certain amount of ALA to yield visible results.

I also used to take 600-900mg ALA/day with 0 visibly noticeable effect. Upped that amount to 3+g for fat loss and 6+g for bulking up, and it's effect became highly visible.


If you said no to any of those three criteria then it may help ya. Maybe try using it just with your post workout carbs and creatine and see how that works? But honestly, my only objection to ALA is the same I have to drugs like hGH. They're both good, but to me they do not have a good cost to benefit ratio.

If you have 50 gms of *good* quality ALA it will cost you X amount of money. Used it at an iffective amount/day for fat loss purposes and you have wasted/lost all your money. Increase the amount to the proper magnitude, and you'll notice the effect, and have actually gotten something that worth it out of it.


If I were type 2 diabetic or on a CKD, then I would spend the money, otherwise no. My body already has a very efficient system to get carbs into my muscles and reduce post prandial blood glucose.
I'm very happy for you. However most people when they do a bulking cycle will gain some fat even on steroids. Quite a few people have some degree of insulin resistance. Especially the olrder bros. And we're all getting older every day.. Even you MS. This is anabolic board, and it should be of interest to most that the possibility for even better lean gains and greater fat loss can be achieved by the addition of ALA to their cycle..

Plus it is not necessarily a given that only people that have insulin resistance, or type 2 diabetics can achieve great results!

I'm quite sure that it can help people with great innate insulin sensitivty even more. Think about it. You increase your muscle cells insulin sensitivity as you workout, which is why post workout drinks are so effective. Doesn't your lack of insulin resistance make that even better for you? What if you juiced? That also increases nutrient uptake to muscle cells. In your case won't that just allow you to hold even more glyclogen in your muscle?


Regards,

rangerx83

 

[barnidge]

Ranger what amount of ALA do you suggest for Refeed day? More than a regular daay?

 

[rangerx83]

Ranger what amount of ALA do you suggest for Refeed day? More than a regular day?

Of course, you'll be having many more carbs/day not to mention other nutrients as well. As a general rule of thumb I would take 12mg ALA per 1 carb gram. So if you drank an ultra fuel (100g carbs maltodextrin) take 1200mg ALA with it. Split your carb intake throughout the day and figure out roughly how much ALA to take with each meal. How many carb calories do you take on your refeed day?

regards,

rangerx83