Newbie cycles that vets could learn from.

[triguy]

100mgs for 5 months CC is SAFE

Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.

Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP.

University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Department of Medicine/Endocrinology-5ACC, Albuquerque 87131, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DESIGN: An uncontrolled case study. SETTING: The outpatient endocrinology clinic of a university tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): A 29-year-old male who has run 50 to 90 miles per week since 15 years of age and who presented with a pelvic stress fracture, markedly decreased bone mineral density, and symptomatic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, and T before and after CC therapy, as well as clinical indicators of gonadal function. RESULT(S): Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. CONCLUSION(S): Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

PMID: 9093212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Realgains]

Nelson I can't see any problems with clomid use especially in the short term. The side affects are quite mild if you notice any at all at least that has been my experience.

How does it suppress LH Nelson? T levels don't skyrocket with clomid use. Clomid just blockes estrogen receprotrs at the pituitary and hypothalamus and thus stimulates LH release. I could see LH being suppressed if T levels wnet very high but they don't. Perhaps I am missing something here I don't know.

I have also read where high level aerobic athletes can develope low T and clomid has helped them.

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, we have one study that says it does, another that says the difference is insignificant and there was one that was posted a few weeks ago that said it didn't. So what do we have here? In the least it shows that results vary and one study or another isn't conclusive evidence.

My point on Clomid is, if it doesn't raise T, why use it? To block estrogen? Why? Estrogen from a short cycle may not be very high. When estrogen gets too low it causes problems of its own. Not to mention, a lot of people do not react well to it.

And remember that Clomid is an estrogen and adding 300mgs (6X's the recommend dosage) may actually elevate levels. I just don't see why it's considered a "why not" drug.

 

[triguy]

good info from NANDI12 @ cuttingedgemuscle.com

NELSON YOU GOT ANY STUDIES BACKING CLOMID MAY INCREASE ESTROGEN?


Are you interested in some particular aspect of this study? If so I can check for you next time I'm at the med library. These guys published a very similar study the year before using 100 mg/day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

It would not surprise me at all if they recycled data from the original study and focused on some different aspect of the research to generate another publication. This is SOP: Publish or Perish

If you are interested in the general ability of clomid to elevate test in normal or hypogonatropic men there are a wealth of data on that.

For instance, one test that is commonly used to check the HPA is the clomid stimulation test:

Clomiphene citrate test: Clomiphene citrate is a weak estrogen that inhibits the binding of estradiol on estrogen receptors and does not stimulate receptor activation.!!!!!!!!!!! Because estradiol is an important inhibitor of serum gonadotropin secretion, receptor occupancy by clomiphene causes decreased negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion by circulating estrogens. The normal adult response to clomiphene citrate, 100 mg po bid, is a 50 to 250% increase in LH, a 30 to 200% increase in FSH, and a 30 to 200% increase in testosterone. These increases are impaired or are absent in hypothalamic or pituitary disorders

http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual/s...ter269/269g.htm

One study looked at the effects of 100 mg clomid bid on normal men for seven days:

"After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively." (1)

Clomid is also effective in elevating testosterone levels that are low in overtrained athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2&dopt=Abstract


(1) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.

Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

 

[Realgains]

Nelson you made conflicting statements. First you say that clomid will reduce estrogen and then later you say it is an estrogen and will raise estrogen. Maybe I don't understnad the jest of your point, I don't know.

It may act like an estrogen at certain body sites like the liver, and BTW exibit certain beneficial affects on ones lipid profile, and it blocks estrogen at other sites like at the breast, hypothalamus and pituitary.
Clomid doesn't reduce serum estrogen it just modifies its affect in certain organ sites.

I think estrogen will be elevated enough to to the point of inhibition on HPTA with a two week cycle if using test and d-bol , tren/d-bol or even test alone.

RG

 

[Realgains]

Triguy.........are there any studies in regard to the affect of clomid on ovarian testosterone production in females?

RG

 

[triguy]

I have a hard enuff time readin journals about men!!!!

gave a quick look but couldnt find any on HEALTHY woman.

try www.pubmeb.gov its what i use.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, I'm not going to start playing he "My research studies can beat up our reserach studies" game. I'm going by the evidence for bodybuilding purposes.

Sorry RG, I know that sounds contradictory but Clomid can raise or lower extrogen. That's one of its drawbacks -- it's very upredictable. And the benifits are dubious.

If Clomid can't raise estrogen then why does it impart estrogenic effects? Weepiness, decreased libido, depression, low ejaculate, etc. Now I know some people claim a hgher libido with Clomid so once again, it's very unpredictable. Maybe it's another pathway that inflicts these symptoms, I'm not sure.
In any case, I just don't see the need for it with short cycles even if it did what it was supposed to do. And there's no telling if it will backfire, which it does in many people.

 

[triguy]

hypothetical cycle: using burts cycling just for EX

first 2 weeks androgel/proviron/arimidex
2nd 2 weeks nolvadex 20mg ED
3rd " " A/P/A
4th " " N 20mg ed + 2 x 500 i.u.'s of HCG
5th " " A/P/A
6th " " clomid + arimidex 1st day 150mgs then 50mg ED after till 2nd week then Adex only.
7th " " A/P/A


This cycle is 3 months doint it 2x for a total of 6 months. Then complete time off.

Goal. increased recovery!!!!! dont care about muscle growth

 

[djdjdjddjon]

i dunno about that guy using 10mg dbol daily, thats just silly, the body itself usually produces more than that a day, seems like just enough to shut the hpta down...? considering average male produces approx 7-11mg daily...