Newbie cycles that vets could learn from.

[Fonz]

I'd rather people get regular blood tests done than caution them on their dosages.

Few people ever go past 1g/week here.

Also, individual differences have not been taken into account
on this thread.

While 9 out of 10 people who do short, low doses will be healthy
ONE WILL NOT.

Thats why regular blood tests are key.

95%(Probably more) of the people of this board don't get blood tests done.

Fonz

 

[Nelson Montana]

There's also an added benefit to giving blood. It removes the old blood which may have a high platlet count, due to roid use. It isn't like donating blood but a full work up will be 3 or 4 vials.

When you're young and/or feeling good, feeling strong, it's hard to accept health risks seriously. If the test results are "borderline" (which insinuates things aren't going well) the reaction of a lot of guys will be "It ain't that bad" or "I feel fine." And it's true everyone is different. You know how it is, one person smokes 2 packs of cigerettes a day and lives to be 85 while the health buff kicks off at 50.

It's also necessary to give blood every few months to get an accurate assesment -- which would be smart, but too inconvenient for most members, I'd imagine.

As they say; An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. As dosages go up, so do the risks. Anyone who refutes that doesn't want to face reality.

 

[Realgains]

I'd rather people get regular blood tests done than caution them on their dosages.

Few people ever go past 1g/week here.

Also, individual differences have not been taken into account
on this thread.

While 9 out of 10 people who do short, low doses will be healthy
ONE WILL NOT.

Thats why regular blood tests are key.

95%(Probably more) of the people of this board don't get blood tests done.

Fonz

I am glad that you brought that up FONZ.

I would like to add that you can go to some independant labs(in most cities) that DO NOT require a docs scrip for blood work.
You want to follow liver enzymes and lipid profile. The older man should check his psa and probably avoid higher doses of test and tren and you may not be able to take these two hormones at all.
It usually costs $30 each for lipid profile and liver enzymes.

High ldl with a very low hdl is not uncommon with steroid use and is often an indicator of liver stress and possible damage, so the cardiovascular aspect is not the only issue when considering a shitty lipid profile.

As a side I have had absolutely terrible hdl to total cholesterol ratio's while on test and tren and only at 800 of test per week and 75 of tren per day( "only meaning relative to what most vets take as most will use a gram and the pro's take 2-4 grams/week!) . But as Nelson Montana has pointed out 800mg is more than anyone in Pumping Iron" took.
I am done with those high doses of powerful androgens, at least for long cycles thats for sure.

My doc had a COW the other month when he saw my ratio of 15 to 1!!
I pitty the bro's that are on roids year round for years.




REMEMBER...the sides you can see like acne and hair loss are the least of your worrries really.

Go to WalMart and get your BP checked often while "on" . Anything 140 or above for the first number(systolic) and 90 or above for the second number(diastolic means that you have a problem. It is likely related to water retention from aromatizable gear.

With low to moderate doses blood work iisues and BP are not as heavily affected but you can still develope problems

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

RG: In keeping with the theme of the post,I don't think the words "only" and "800mgs of test" belong in the same sentance! That's quite a bit, even though it's become the norm in these parts. To reiterate what we've been disscusing, that's more than anybody in the movie "Pumping Iron" took.

 

[Realgains]

RG: In keeping with the theme of the post,I don't think the words "only" and "800mgs of test" belong in the same sentance! That's quite a bit, even though it's become the norm in these parts. To reiterate what we've been disscusing, that's more than anybody in the movie "Pumping Iron" took.

By "only" I meant for a vet... but that doesn't make it particularily smart.....As crazy as it seems the pro's take 2-4 grams!!..and that is nuts IMHO.
I will edit what I said though as I see your point.

RG

 

[triguy]

ATTENTION ulter short cycle East german doping program did it.

check my thread "east german doping program"

They mainly used 3-5 week cycles with 1-3 weeks off.

befor competition is when they incorporated longer cycles, (maybe cause they would have a long layoff after?)


granted these are athletes and not BBr's but the charts an studies show also how much weight they gained.

I personally like "burst" cycles but i think they fit nicely with athletes periodized training schedules

 

[Mandinka2]

Update

Hello everyone ,
well after damaging my foot on Monday (of course I finished my leg workout!) , wearing crutches yesterday and hammering back again last night , I topped the scales at 234 (up 6) this morning, strength way up and things going well. Definite fat loss noticeable , also aggression levels (in gym) up. However as the cycle is at midpoint today I realize that the experiment is still very inconclusive , what attracted me to the theory is the rapid bounce back of HPTA , we shall see if it proves correct. It looks like I'm headin for a 10 pound total gain which I'd be very pleased with , if this proves to be the case , my next cycle may be focussed purely on taking body fat below 8% but that is another story. Realgains , could you please advise as to the neccessity of clomid at which stage , I would like to get this thing right. I shall start 5mg of dbol on wakeup this day week.

 

[Realgains]

Re: Update

Hello everyone ,
well after damaging my foot on Monday (of course I finished my leg workout!) , wearing crutches yesterday and hammering back again last night , I topped the scales at 234 (up 6) this morning, strength way up and things going well. Definite fat loss noticeable , also aggression levels (in gym) up. However as the cycle is at midpoint today I realize that the experiment is still very inconclusive , what attracted me to the theory is the rapid bounce back of HPTA , we shall see if it proves correct. It looks like I'm headin for a 10 pound total gain which I'd be very pleased with , if this proves to be the case , my next cycle may be focussed purely on taking body fat below 8% but that is another story. Realgains , could you please advise as to the neccessity of clomid at which stage , I would like to get this thing right. I shall start 5mg of dbol on wakeup this day week.

Clomid as usual...three days after the last test prop(I think you are on that) or one ady after d-bol at 300mg on day one with food(helps absorbtion) and then 50 per day for 3-4 weeks. maybe a little overkill but clomid is very safe and has other benefits besides the blocking if estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary.

RG

 

[Nelson Montana]

RG: You've offered a lot of good advice on this post, but I must dispute your over-recomendation of Clomid. For one thing it isn't all that safe. Secondly, it does not increse LH, it supresses it. And thirdly, it may not be needed at all on a short cycle.

It's obvious we're on polar opposites on this issue, but I believe you need to re-consider your admiration of Clomid. It is not the wonder drug that Bill Roberts has made it out to be. In fact, it kinda sucks.

 

[triguy]

no flame here nelson but back up your statements

Lets start supporting our theories here with some journals!?


LH and FSH (very important were increased in NORMAL men after short term treatment!

: Andrologia 2002 Oct;34(5):308-16 Related Articles, Links


Basal serum testosterone as an indicator of response to clomiphene treatment in human epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate.

Gonzales GF.

Instituto de Investigaciones de la Altura and Department of Physiological Sciences, Universidad Peruana Cayetano Heredia, Lima, Peru.

The present study was designed to determine the response of human epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate function after a 5-day course of clomiphene citrate in men attending an infertility service. In 45 men, the secretions of the epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate were assessed by measurements of seminal alpha-glucosidase, fructose and acid phosphatase, respectively. Subjects were classified as normal or abnormal: abnormal men were defined as those who either had history of a sexually transmitted disease (STD), leukocytospermia, hypoandrogenism, or a low response of Leydig cells to clomiphene stimulation; and normal subjects were those who did not have these conditions. Mean serum testosterone luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) levels were significantly increased after the short course with clomiphene citrate. After clomiphene citrate stimulation, the men in the normal group showed significantly increased marker levels of the seminal vesicles (P < 0.02) and prostate (P < 0.05), but not of the epididymis (P : NS). Men classified as abnormal showed no response according to the markers of the seminal vesicles and epididymis. Men with history of STD and abnormal basal values of acid phosphatase did not respond to the treatment. Men with history of STD but normal basal values of seminal acid phosphatase increased significantly in their levels of seminal acid phosphatase after clomiphene stimulation (P < 0.02). Multivariate analysis showed that the basal serum testosterone level was the only variable in predicting the probability of response to the clomiphene in terms of true-corrected seminal fructose, seminal acid phosphatase and seminal alpha-glucosidase levels. In fact, a high response of the seminal vesicles was observed in men with the highest basal serum testosterone levels (0.45 +/- 0.17; coefficient of regression +/- standard error; P < 0.018). However, a high response in terms of seminal acid phosphatase (P < 0.004) or alpha-glucosidase (P < 0.037) was observed in men with low basal serum testosterone levels. In conclusion, in the normal men, true-corrected fructose and acid phosphatase but not alpha-glucosidase in semen increased after duplicate androgen stimulation. An absence of response was observed in cases with history of STD/leukocytospermia or hypoandrogenism.