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Newbie cycles that vets could learn from.

If this sounds familiar it's because I posted it 100 times already...



"along with that come some pretty nasty sides, especially if you are using test for example. Acne would be the worst visible side for many."

The sides, for the vast majority of people under 35, are same at 500mg as 1000mg.



REPOSTED with permission from AF:

I will assume that you are going to train the same whether you are taking 1gr of test or taking half that. You are going to inject twice a week whether you inject 1gr or half that. You will eat the same, use the same anti-E's with a possible variance in your doses. You'll take the same 300mg of clomid the first day after your cycle is over and the same 100mg/day the first week and the same 50mg/day the 2nd week. Will the sides be different if you take 1gr a week or half that? Probably not. (You should adjust your doses down anytime you get unwanted sides.)
So at the end of 8 weeks, after all your time and effort, you're going to look at the bar and see how much weight you've add to it, you will look in the mirror and see how much muscle you've added. Do you want 1gr's worth of muscle or do you want half that?


Note: I know it's not double, but the point is the same.

There is more so I'll add it here. If you are taking 500 or 1000 you are still risking the same time in jail. You have the same chance of infection, hitting a nerve, etc. from injecting. You have to go through the same trouble of finding, paying for, and receiving your AS. Whether you use 500mg or 1000mg.
 
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Utter: Your conclusion is flat out wrong.

For one thing, the difference in blood pressure will be considerable. Also, twice the dosage will not produce twice the gains.
Going with your logic why not do 4 grams in one week, gain 80 pounds and never have to do it again? It just doesn't work that way.

Where my concept differs from RG (or maybe not, but I don't recall this being addressed) is that the short cycle isn't supposed to be BIGGER gains FASTER. It's all about small gains. It makes more sense to gain 8 pounds and keep 5 than it does to gain 30 pounds and keep 6.

Small gains are more solid and more easily retained. If you do 4 short cyles a year, that's a total of 20 pounds of solid muscle. Can any say that isn't enough? If so, move on.

And you won't need Clomid, Nolva, HCG, Acc, or anything else. That's the deal in a nutshell. If that sounds good, short low does cycles are the way to go.
 
Sorry Nelson been there, done that. Your theory of short cycles doesn't work in vivo.
Short cycles will shut you down just like long ones. These short cycles were put to rest on Anabolic Fitness almost 2 years ago when members ran them and had blood work done and were all shut down. If you go to the AF Hall of fame you can read all about it. Read "Jumping on the Short cycles bandwagon" and the "Fangowango cycles are dead"

I put a note that I know it's not twice the gains. Maybe you missed it.

Nelson the difference between 500 and 1000mg will not make a significant difference in blood pressure. At least none to be concerned with when using enough anti-E to prevent the water retention that contributes to it.

"Going with your logic why not do 4 grams in one week, gain 80 pounds and never have to do it again? It just doesn't work that way."

That's not my logic and I am surprised to even see that in a post you authored.
 
Utter: The analogy was just to underline the premise that more gear doesn't result in comparbale gains. I wasn't suggesting you didn't know that, but there seems to be a lot of people who don't.

I've seen severe BP spikes once dosages get near the 1 gram mark. Adding anti-e's present there own set of problems.

The issue was never the shut down of HPTA. Hell, a few d-bol will do that in about a week. Again, the premise is making slow steady gains as opposed to "blowing up" and eventually losing those gains.

Although suppression occurs from short cycles, the RECUPERSTION is much faster if the HPTA has been supressed only a few weeks as opposed to several months. That is not to be lightly dismissed! The longer the supression the more muscle lost. Sure, you can go from drug to drug to drug attempting to circumvent the dilemma, but using the short cycles appoach is simpler, healthier, more economical and ultimately, will look better and last longer.
 
Ok

I have not seen this dangerously high BP problem at only 1000mg. However I have only been doing this 20 years so I imagine if you've seen it I will run into it eventually.
The short cycle from a gains standpoint makes even less sense than from a HTPA recovery standpoint. Does anyone deny that their best gains come in the 4th to 6th week?
I am at a disadvantage because I have not read what you are using in your short cycle or how short is short. I imagine it's the same thing discussed two years ago.
However, in order for it to be as productive as an 8 week cycle it would have to be tren and suspension and an oral. Which means dailies (IMI) for these guys, so most woudn't do it anyway.
Two good cycles a year will net better gains than 6 short ones. Like I said, this method of cycling was en vogue 2 years ago but it wasn't productive, practical, or safer.
 
We just disagree. You've never seen BP probems. I have. Lots of people have.

Yes, I do advocate orals along with an injectabe, but at low dosages. Mg per Mg, orals have several advantages.

Not productve? Depends on your goals. Obviously more gear will equal more weight gain. But I don't care for the puffy, overblown look it provdes and I've found big fast gains to be the most short lived.

I've had dozens, maybe hundreds of people tell me that the short cycles I recommend produced excellant results with no sides. How many guys who do a gram a week for 10 weeks can say they have no sides? Look at this board bro. Gyno, bloat, no dick, acne, loss of gains. But to each his own. The readers will ultimately decide for themselves.
 
If one is already fairly big and the goal is to gain as much mass as possible in a few months then long cycles with fairly high doses are for you....but the newbie that is below his natural max simply doesn't need a lot of gear to gain very well. He may very well gain better with a gram a week but I don't think by very much. I for one see a big diffence in sides from 500 of test to a gram. Maybe some people are luckier than me and have better genetics I don't know.

Short cycles are not for everyone but I think they have there place.

I have had my test levels checked before and after a short cycle of tren/test. Before it was my normal of around 550. My test production was likely nearly zero after the two weeks but I retested after a week off, that is after week three, and my test had rebounded to a higher level at 670. Some think this is due to the pituitary being ultra sensitized to GnRH, it not having time enough to "go to sleep". By week 4 my test had dropped to 560.

In the 4 weeks off I gained a little more strength but lost weight due to the loss of water weight. I have kept up to 8 pounds with short cycles and have seemed to hang onto gains better over time. I experienced no sides, save for a little low back pump while running...no acne, no PBH, very minimal change in lipid profile etc.
It does seem that test levels recover very rapidly after short cycles. I have never had this rapid recovery with long cycles and certainly never gained an once of strength in the immediate weeks post cycle.

Maybe short cycles are underestimated.
They can be quite productive if using fast acting compounds.
 
2Thick said:
Finally, the moderates are gaining ground....it only took a few years...LOL
Click to expand...

Moderates?

More like the ultra-conservatives..............LOL

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


Moderates?

More like the ultra-conservatives..............LOL

Fonz
Click to expand...


I remember a poll taken once on this board and if I am remembering correctly the majority of the members were between 19 and 25 with runner up 17-21.

There are a lot of very young bro's on this board that just need to train naturally for a while and make great gains..so I think we should be conservative. Most guys here don't need large doses to gain well so why use them. I think its best to save higher doses for when you are much bigger and at least at your natural max weight.

RG

RG:)
 
"Most guys here don't need large doses to gain well so why use them."

I have listed the reasons why men need to use moderate dosing as opposed to very low. Twice.

"...You've never seen BP probems. I have. Lots of people have."

Define BP problems and lots of people.
There are 5000 active members on our board with the vast majority being vets and none of them have reported dangerous increases in BP, to my knowledge, using only 1000mg. With the exception of some of the over 40's.



The posting describing sides on this board are not a reflection of how many experience them vs how many don't. People instinctively like to report negative information 9 times* more often than positive. The people without sides don't post that they had no sides for the most part. Also, most of those reporting sides are doing so while using low doses anyway.

"How many guys who do a gram a week for 10 weeks can say they have no sides? "

About 90% of the vets on these boards.

"I have kept up to 8 pounds with short cycles"

If people could gain and keep 8 pounds of LBM from every fangowango cycle they do it would only take 4 years doing it just once every 3 months to go from 200 to 300 pounds at 10% BF.
It may work for some once but it doesn't on a consistant basis and we all tried it 2 years ago and proved that.



*A National Restaurant Assoc study showed people are 9 times more likely to tell someone about a bad restaurant experience as as opposed to a good one.
 
ULTER.... you are right one cannot expect to gain 8 pounds on each two weeker , especially after one gets a lot bigger. Nor can one expect to gain 20-30 pounds per cycle on long cycles on a consistant basis.(unless you use test alone at high dose with no estrogen inhibition in which case half the gain will be water and lost in the few weeks post cycle)

I never said that one can continue to make 8 pound gains on short cycles over years. But you can smash through your genetic natural maximum weight quite quickly. After that you will have to settle for smaller gains with short cycles and if one wants to get really huge then long cycles are needed.

But bro the short cycle properly done does work and I don't think it is fair to say that they don't work. They are not going to get you 40 pounds above your natural max weight but that doesn't mean the don't work.


Its just an alternative to long cycles for those that are not looking to become as massive as they could and that do not compete. Short cycles are very good for the older man worried about sides(especially prostate issues and blood lipid issues), the paranoid newbie,and for the athlete looking to help his game etc.

I have said it before ..if one desires to become as huge as possible and or compete at a high levels then long cycles are needed and in fact many would need to stay on gear year round.



RG


:)
 
I have had my test levels checked before and after a short cycle of tren/test. Before it was my normal of around 550. My test production was likely nearly zero after the two weeks but I retested after a week off, that is after week three, and my test had rebounded to a higher level at 670. Some think this is due to the pituitary being ultra sensitized to GnRH, it not having time enough to "go to sleep". By week 4 my test had dropped to 560.
Click to expand...

Were you taking clomid on week 3 and 4?
What kind of test(ester) did you use and what dose?
 
Qrios said:


Were you taking clomid on week 3 and 4?
What kind of test(ester) did you use and what dose?
Click to expand...

Yes I was taking clomid. On day 15 I did 300mg in divided doses and then 50 mg per day for the 4 weeks off.
I was doing test ptop at about 125 per day and tren at 80mg per day.
 
Where does everyone get this crap that Arnold had four surgerys, and it was all because of roids? "My friends cousin knew a guy, who went out with a girl, who dated a guy, who knew a guy who worked at a hospital...." Arnold had 2 surgerys. One to replace a valve that was messed up genetically. Something went wrong, he woke up one night, couldn't breathe, they had to replace it. End of story.

And as for some people calling real gains a bullshitter, etc (Except for Uter, etc., which are very well respected members, and VETS), wake the hell up. Some of you remind me of the people who ask me how I gained size, and look at me blank as I tell them I eat 6-10 times a day, as I walk back to my next set of deadlifts. Meanwhile they are doing cable curls, and drinking shakes, with some skim milk, and a subway sandwich for good measure. Back in the day, those guys trained like animals, not like some of us (not saying todays pro's don't. They also train like nuts). They did squats, deads, clean and press, etc. No press downs, and kickbacks for the main routine. They also ate like horses. Ground beef in bulk, steaks, WHOLE eggs, WHOLE milk, etc. You add genetics and a little juice, and you could easily have a great looking Arnold at 6'2 235-245 lean.

I think more newbies need to follow this advice. I did eq at 200mg a week for 12 weeks, I went from 191/2 to 218. At first I even thought the gear was bunk, because I wasn't shut down, and didnt experience sides. I guess low sides come with low dose. I hear people recommending someone to stack so much shit for their first cycle, what bs! "Take 40mg of d-ball a day, 500 of test, 300 of deca, throw in some fina ed for good measure, and perhaps some a-bombs for a bridge at the end" High dose, low dose, no dose at all, if the food, proper training, and rest aren't there, then no gains. And no dose will save you then.

Some bro's may need high doses, same may need low. But *newbies* should start out low, and find out what works for them. Oh, and don't complain the shit was fake, or you need more, when you aren't even over 200lbs at 6'5, and you eat once a day at 4pm, and do leg exts with cable cross overs.....

Excellent Post Real gains. I always enjoy your posts, but this one was dead on..
 
Thanks real gains......I've been to many boards and this is the first post I've seen like this. It's a real shame that more people can't have the start low and build up attitude. Keep these posts coming.
 
The currently available lab rat speaks:

Ok folks , this morning , on the scales weighted in at 231 lbs (up 3 at start of day five), this is below what I would expect with dbol but not holdin an ounce of water (Winny and tren eod). Hammered back in gym on Saturday , was very pleased with strength increase. Kinda think I screwed up a little as I got caught up in some emotional trouble last night (damn wimmin) ,maybe cost me a pund - didn't sleep , sadly not for that reason. Anyway , the experiment continues!
 
Good work everyone

This is one of the most sensible threads I've read on this site in a long time. Although I am not one of the most experienced bros on here, the low dose theory is making alot of sense to me. I gained and kept about 4 or 5 lbs one summer on 25mg of test suspension eod for 6 wks. I know some guys say, what the hell would you only want to gain 4 or 5 lbs for? But in my mind the long term health risks are much less, and if I ever put on 25 lbs in 3 weeks like I did with A-bombs again I think my body would kick my ass. Although it was cool putting on that much weight that fast, but the sides are not worth it IMO. Next cycle will be nice n easy 250 test/wk X 8, maybe some winny at the end @ 25ed X 4. Thanks to all who have contributed!
 
Well, I've been lurking around the board for a few months. I've been reading things, trying to figure some stuff out. I figured no one would appreciate another newbie coming on, and on his first day posting something on the order of "I'm new here--help me!". I visit other forums, and I know how much I just LOVE that.

I was so damned glad to see this thread. So far, most of what I've seen has been cycles where people stack so much. It was good to see more of a conservative approach.

But, I of course have some questions--don't we always?

I've been running and doing moderate lifting for six months or so--but not putting on muscle mass. I haven't been pushing it. I only wanted to get in better shape, but not really beef up at all.

I'm 5'10", and about 155lbs (kinda scrawny, I know). I want to start putting on some mass. My goals are pretty loose. I have no definite weight or size--I simply want some clear definition, and improved strength. But I DON'T want to be huge--I don't want to be competition worthy. If I got bigger than 200lbs, for my frame, I'd be scared of my damned self.

I've been looking for people to list, more specifically, what I should be doing as a workout regiment. A few comments in this thread came close, but as I'm not entirely educated on the subject, it didn't all make sense to me. Some work out 3 times a week, some 6. Some go every other day. Some work upper body one day, lower body the next, and then alternate.

Can someone be more specific on really how I should, as a beginner weightlifter, be lifting? Or if you know of a good site or spot where I can find out more about this, that would be great. Also, as for eating all the time, I can try. I admit that this is probably my big problem. I'm a vegetarian, for one. Although the combination of foods I do eat often mix to complete protein strands, I'm sure I don't get enough. I have a whey protein supplement that I can take more of, if I have to. I think it's something like 25g of protein per serving.

Also, I don't entirely like the idea of cycling. Or, more specifically, I don't like the idea of stacking. Call me a paranoid newbie--that's really what I am. But the article George has posted about Anavar sounded really interesting.

Would it be possible to simply supplement my new workout/dieting routine with JUST oral anavar? Would it do any good at all?

Also, I'm not entirely sure what board etiquette is, but no one ever meantions how it is they come by these things. I haven't found one person list a source at all. I'm assuming that's because it would be less than desireable to post someone's name all over the web... but if no one says anything... how am I to start?

If you made it this far, I'm grateful and downright impressed. If you can help me out at all, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks a bunch.
 
Stargazer22 said:
Well, I've been lurking around the board for a few months. I've been reading things, trying to figure some stuff out. I figured no one would appreciate another newbie coming on, and on his first day posting something on the order of "I'm new here--help me!". I visit other forums, and I know how much I just LOVE that.

I was so damned glad to see this thread. So far, most of what I've seen has been cycles where people stack so much. It was good to see more of a conservative approach.

But, I of course have some questions--don't we always?

I've been running and doing moderate lifting for six months or so--but not putting on muscle mass. I haven't been pushing it. I only wanted to get in better shape, but not really beef up at all.

I'm 5'10", and about 155lbs (kinda scrawny, I know). I want to start putting on some mass. My goals are pretty loose. I have no definite weight or size--I simply want some clear definition, and improved strength. But I DON'T want to be huge--I don't want to be competition worthy. If I got bigger than 200lbs, for my frame, I'd be scared of my damned self.

I've been looking for people to list, more specifically, what I should be doing as a workout regiment. A few comments in this thread came close, but as I'm not entirely educated on the subject, it didn't all make sense to me. Some work out 3 times a week, some 6. Some go every other day. Some work upper body one day, lower body the next, and then alternate.

Can someone be more specific on really how I should, as a beginner weightlifter, be lifting? Or if you know of a good site or spot where I can find out more about this, that would be great. Also, as for eating all the time, I can try. I admit that this is probably my big problem. I'm a vegetarian, for one. Although the combination of foods I do eat often mix to complete protein strands, I'm sure I don't get enough. I have a whey protein supplement that I can take more of, if I have to. I think it's something like 25g of protein per serving.

Also, I don't entirely like the idea of cycling. Or, more specifically, I don't like the idea of stacking. Call me a paranoid newbie--that's really what I am. But the article George has posted about Anavar sounded really interesting.

Would it be possible to simply supplement my new workout/dieting routine with JUST oral anavar? Would it do any good at all?

Also, I'm not entirely sure what board etiquette is, but no one ever meantions how it is they come by these things. I haven't found one person list a source at all. I'm assuming that's because it would be less than desireable to post someone's name all over the web... but if no one says anything... how am I to start?

If you made it this far, I'm grateful and downright impressed. If you can help me out at all, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks a bunch.
Click to expand...


I would recommend that you try naturally for a while as you habve a long ways to go.

Anavar alone is, too expensive and often faked.

Check out my replies on the following thread in regard to training and diet etc. It's up know again. "Important info on volume and intensity"

RG
 
I'd rather people get regular blood tests done than caution them on their dosages.

Few people ever go past 1g/week here.

Also, individual differences have not been taken into account
on this thread.

While 9 out of 10 people who do short, low doses will be healthy
ONE WILL NOT.

Thats why regular blood tests are key.

95%(Probably more) of the people of this board don't get blood tests done.

Fonz
 
There's also an added benefit to giving blood. It removes the old blood which may have a high platlet count, due to roid use. It isn't like donating blood but a full work up will be 3 or 4 vials.

When you're young and/or feeling good, feeling strong, it's hard to accept health risks seriously. If the test results are "borderline" (which insinuates things aren't going well) the reaction of a lot of guys will be "It ain't that bad" or "I feel fine." And it's true everyone is different. You know how it is, one person smokes 2 packs of cigerettes a day and lives to be 85 while the health buff kicks off at 50.

It's also necessary to give blood every few months to get an accurate assesment -- which would be smart, but too inconvenient for most members, I'd imagine.

As they say; An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. As dosages go up, so do the risks. Anyone who refutes that doesn't want to face reality.
 
Fonz said:
I'd rather people get regular blood tests done than caution them on their dosages.

Few people ever go past 1g/week here.

Also, individual differences have not been taken into account
on this thread.

While 9 out of 10 people who do short, low doses will be healthy
ONE WILL NOT.

Thats why regular blood tests are key.

95%(Probably more) of the people of this board don't get blood tests done.

Fonz
Click to expand...


I am glad that you brought that up FONZ.

I would like to add that you can go to some independant labs(in most cities) that DO NOT require a docs scrip for blood work.
You want to follow liver enzymes and lipid profile. The older man should check his psa and probably avoid higher doses of test and tren and you may not be able to take these two hormones at all.
It usually costs $30 each for lipid profile and liver enzymes.

High ldl with a very low hdl is not uncommon with steroid use and is often an indicator of liver stress and possible damage, so the cardiovascular aspect is not the only issue when considering a shitty lipid profile.

As a side I have had absolutely terrible hdl to total cholesterol ratio's while on test and tren and only at 800 of test per week and 75 of tren per day( "only meaning relative to what most vets take as most will use a gram and the pro's take 2-4 grams/week!) . But as Nelson Montana has pointed out 800mg is more than anyone in Pumping Iron" took.
I am done with those high doses of powerful androgens, at least for long cycles thats for sure.

My doc had a COW the other month when he saw my ratio of 15 to 1!!
I pitty the bro's that are on roids year round for years.




REMEMBER...the sides you can see like acne and hair loss are the least of your worrries really.

Go to WalMart and get your BP checked often while "on" . Anything 140 or above for the first number(systolic) and 90 or above for the second number(diastolic means that you have a problem. It is likely related to water retention from aromatizable gear.

With low to moderate doses blood work iisues and BP are not as heavily affected but you can still develope problems

RG:)
 
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RG: In keeping with the theme of the post,I don't think the words "only" and "800mgs of test" belong in the same sentance! That's quite a bit, even though it's become the norm in these parts. To reiterate what we've been disscusing, that's more than anybody in the movie "Pumping Iron" took.
 
Nelson Montana said:
RG: In keeping with the theme of the post,I don't think the words "only" and "800mgs of test" belong in the same sentance! That's quite a bit, even though it's become the norm in these parts. To reiterate what we've been disscusing, that's more than anybody in the movie "Pumping Iron" took.
Click to expand...


By "only" I meant for a vet... but that doesn't make it particularily smart.....As crazy as it seems the pro's take 2-4 grams!!..and that is nuts IMHO.
I will edit what I said though as I see your point.

RG:)
 
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ATTENTION ulter short cycle East german doping program did it.

check my thread "east german doping program"

They mainly used 3-5 week cycles with 1-3 weeks off.

befor competition is when they incorporated longer cycles, (maybe cause they would have a long layoff after?)


granted these are athletes and not BBr's but the charts an studies show also how much weight they gained.

I personally like "burst" cycles but i think they fit nicely with athletes periodized training schedules
 
Update

Hello everyone ,
well after damaging my foot on Monday (of course I finished my leg workout!) , wearing crutches yesterday and hammering back again last night , I topped the scales at 234 (up 6) this morning, strength way up and things going well. Definite fat loss noticeable , also aggression levels (in gym) up. However as the cycle is at midpoint today I realize that the experiment is still very inconclusive , what attracted me to the theory is the rapid bounce back of HPTA , we shall see if it proves correct. It looks like I'm headin for a 10 pound total gain which I'd be very pleased with , if this proves to be the case , my next cycle may be focussed purely on taking body fat below 8% but that is another story. Realgains , could you please advise as to the neccessity of clomid at which stage , I would like to get this thing right. I shall start 5mg of dbol on wakeup this day week.
 
Re: Update

Mandinka2 said:
Hello everyone ,
well after damaging my foot on Monday (of course I finished my leg workout!) , wearing crutches yesterday and hammering back again last night , I topped the scales at 234 (up 6) this morning, strength way up and things going well. Definite fat loss noticeable , also aggression levels (in gym) up. However as the cycle is at midpoint today I realize that the experiment is still very inconclusive , what attracted me to the theory is the rapid bounce back of HPTA , we shall see if it proves correct. It looks like I'm headin for a 10 pound total gain which I'd be very pleased with , if this proves to be the case , my next cycle may be focussed purely on taking body fat below 8% but that is another story. Realgains , could you please advise as to the neccessity of clomid at which stage , I would like to get this thing right. I shall start 5mg of dbol on wakeup this day week.
Click to expand...


Clomid as usual...three days after the last test prop(I think you are on that) or one ady after d-bol at 300mg on day one with food(helps absorbtion) and then 50 per day for 3-4 weeks. maybe a little overkill but clomid is very safe and has other benefits besides the blocking if estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary.

RG:)
 
RG: You've offered a lot of good advice on this post, but I must dispute your over-recomendation of Clomid. For one thing it isn't all that safe. Secondly, it does not increse LH, it supresses it. And thirdly, it may not be needed at all on a short cycle.

It's obvious we're on polar opposites on this issue, but I believe you need to re-consider your admiration of Clomid. It is not the wonder drug that Bill Roberts has made it out to be. In fact, it kinda sucks.
 
no flame here nelson but back up your statements

Lets start supporting our theories here with some journals!?


LH and FSH (very important were increased in NORMAL men after short term treatment!

: Andrologia 2002 Oct;34(5):308-16 Related Articles, Links


Basal serum testosterone as an indicator of response to clomiphene treatment in human epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate.

Gonzales GF.

Instituto de Investigaciones de la Altura and Department of Physiological Sciences, Universidad Peruana Cayetano Heredia, Lima, Peru.

The present study was designed to determine the response of human epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate function after a 5-day course of clomiphene citrate in men attending an infertility service. In 45 men, the secretions of the epididymis, seminal vesicles and prostate were assessed by measurements of seminal alpha-glucosidase, fructose and acid phosphatase, respectively. Subjects were classified as normal or abnormal: abnormal men were defined as those who either had history of a sexually transmitted disease (STD), leukocytospermia, hypoandrogenism, or a low response of Leydig cells to clomiphene stimulation; and normal subjects were those who did not have these conditions. Mean serum testosterone luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) levels were significantly increased after the short course with clomiphene citrate. After clomiphene citrate stimulation, the men in the normal group showed significantly increased marker levels of the seminal vesicles (P < 0.02) and prostate (P < 0.05), but not of the epididymis (P : NS). Men classified as abnormal showed no response according to the markers of the seminal vesicles and epididymis. Men with history of STD and abnormal basal values of acid phosphatase did not respond to the treatment. Men with history of STD but normal basal values of seminal acid phosphatase increased significantly in their levels of seminal acid phosphatase after clomiphene stimulation (P < 0.02). Multivariate analysis showed that the basal serum testosterone level was the only variable in predicting the probability of response to the clomiphene in terms of true-corrected seminal fructose, seminal acid phosphatase and seminal alpha-glucosidase levels. In fact, a high response of the seminal vesicles was observed in men with the highest basal serum testosterone levels (0.45 +/- 0.17; coefficient of regression +/- standard error; P < 0.018). However, a high response in terms of seminal acid phosphatase (P < 0.004) or alpha-glucosidase (P < 0.037) was observed in men with low basal serum testosterone levels. In conclusion, in the normal men, true-corrected fructose and acid phosphatase but not alpha-glucosidase in semen increased after duplicate androgen stimulation. An absence of response was observed in cases with history of STD/leukocytospermia or hypoandrogenism.
 
100mgs for 5 months CC is SAFE

Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.

Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP.

University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Department of Medicine/Endocrinology-5ACC, Albuquerque 87131, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DESIGN: An uncontrolled case study. SETTING: The outpatient endocrinology clinic of a university tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): A 29-year-old male who has run 50 to 90 miles per week since 15 years of age and who presented with a pelvic stress fracture, markedly decreased bone mineral density, and symptomatic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, and T before and after CC therapy, as well as clinical indicators of gonadal function. RESULT(S): Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. CONCLUSION(S): Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

PMID: 9093212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Nelson I can't see any problems with clomid use especially in the short term. The side affects are quite mild if you notice any at all at least that has been my experience.

How does it suppress LH Nelson? T levels don't skyrocket with clomid use. Clomid just blockes estrogen receprotrs at the pituitary and hypothalamus and thus stimulates LH release. I could see LH being suppressed if T levels wnet very high but they don't. Perhaps I am missing something here I don't know.

I have also read where high level aerobic athletes can develope low T and clomid has helped them.

RG

:)
 
Well, we have one study that says it does, another that says the difference is insignificant and there was one that was posted a few weeks ago that said it didn't. So what do we have here? In the least it shows that results vary and one study or another isn't conclusive evidence.

My point on Clomid is, if it doesn't raise T, why use it? To block estrogen? Why? Estrogen from a short cycle may not be very high. When estrogen gets too low it causes problems of its own. Not to mention, a lot of people do not react well to it.

And remember that Clomid is an estrogen and adding 300mgs (6X's the recommend dosage) may actually elevate levels. I just don't see why it's considered a "why not" drug.
 
good info from NANDI12 @ cuttingedgemuscle.com

NELSON YOU GOT ANY STUDIES BACKING CLOMID MAY INCREASE ESTROGEN?


Are you interested in some particular aspect of this study? If so I can check for you next time I'm at the med library. These guys published a very similar study the year before using 100 mg/day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

It would not surprise me at all if they recycled data from the original study and focused on some different aspect of the research to generate another publication. This is SOP: Publish or Perish

If you are interested in the general ability of clomid to elevate test in normal or hypogonatropic men there are a wealth of data on that.

For instance, one test that is commonly used to check the HPA is the clomid stimulation test:

Clomiphene citrate test: Clomiphene citrate is a weak estrogen that inhibits the binding of estradiol on estrogen receptors and does not stimulate receptor activation.!!!!!!!!!!! Because estradiol is an important inhibitor of serum gonadotropin secretion, receptor occupancy by clomiphene causes decreased negative feedback on gonadotropin secretion by circulating estrogens. The normal adult response to clomiphene citrate, 100 mg po bid, is a 50 to 250% increase in LH, a 30 to 200% increase in FSH, and a 30 to 200% increase in testosterone. These increases are impaired or are absent in hypothalamic or pituitary disorders

http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual/s...ter269/269g.htm

One study looked at the effects of 100 mg clomid bid on normal men for seven days:

"After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively." (1)

Clomid is also effective in elevating testosterone levels that are low in overtrained athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2&dopt=Abstract


(1) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.

Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.
 
Nelson you made conflicting statements. First you say that clomid will reduce estrogen and then later you say it is an estrogen and will raise estrogen. Maybe I don't understnad the jest of your point, I don't know.

It may act like an estrogen at certain body sites like the liver, and BTW exibit certain beneficial affects on ones lipid profile, and it blocks estrogen at other sites like at the breast, hypothalamus and pituitary.
Clomid doesn't reduce serum estrogen it just modifies its affect in certain organ sites.

I think estrogen will be elevated enough to to the point of inhibition on HPTA with a two week cycle if using test and d-bol , tren/d-bol or even test alone.

RG


:)
 
Well, I'm not going to start playing he "My research studies can beat up our reserach studies" game. I'm going by the evidence for bodybuilding purposes.

Sorry RG, I know that sounds contradictory but Clomid can raise or lower extrogen. That's one of its drawbacks -- it's very upredictable. And the benifits are dubious.

If Clomid can't raise estrogen then why does it impart estrogenic effects? Weepiness, decreased libido, depression, low ejaculate, etc. Now I know some people claim a hgher libido with Clomid so once again, it's very unpredictable. Maybe it's another pathway that inflicts these symptoms, I'm not sure.
In any case, I just don't see the need for it with short cycles even if it did what it was supposed to do. And there's no telling if it will backfire, which it does in many people.
 
hypothetical cycle: using burts cycling just for EX

first 2 weeks androgel/proviron/arimidex
2nd 2 weeks nolvadex 20mg ED
3rd " " A/P/A
4th " " N 20mg ed + 2 x 500 i.u.'s of HCG
5th " " A/P/A
6th " " clomid + arimidex 1st day 150mgs then 50mg ED after till 2nd week then Adex only.
7th " " A/P/A


This cycle is 3 months doint it 2x for a total of 6 months. Then complete time off.

Goal. increased recovery!!!!! dont care about muscle growth
 
i dunno about that guy using 10mg dbol daily, thats just silly, the body itself usually produces more than that a day, seems like just enough to shut the hpta down...? considering average male produces approx 7-11mg daily...
 
Last update

Well over here in Munich , things were goin extremely well with the cycle , foot injury notwithstanding until my two buddies from back home (Ireland) came over for the last weekend , apologies to all here as I could not stay away from the demon drink , and decided that 17 aa and alcohol don't mix so I cut short the cycle. I already started the dbol at 5mg this morning and feel good at 233lbs. , and still very strong in gym last night. I will try again in Janruary. On a related note I found that Fina did not shut me down nearly as bad as Deca as I was having the typical high test symptoms, I am hence unsure as to whether clomid therapy is neccessary.
 
Personally I would take it for at least a week bro even after a very short cycle...it won't hurt you and will likely do some good.

RG
 
Ok RG ,

Ok , my learned friend please post as to how to take the one week of clomid (it's in my shelf as we speak). I got terrible acne off of he deca cycle last time when I started on the clomid. Thanks. PS , just for fun , I did one set of cable rows last night , I managed 350lbs for 12 after not having touched them for more than three months. I was always strong on this movement but I thought that this was quite something (I had completed the two supersetted pre-exhaust pullover/machine row sets previous to this). I am considering seriously adopting your approach to training although I don't mind saying that I'm terrified of injury at those weights (i.e. reducing from 12 reps to 8).
RL
 
Re: Ok RG ,

Mandinka2 said:
Ok , my learned friend please post as to how to take the one week of clomid (it's in my shelf as we speak). I got terrible acne off of he deca cycle last time when I started on the clomid. Thanks. PS , just for fun , I did one set of cable rows last night , I managed 350lbs for 12 after not having touched them for more than three months. I was always strong on this movement but I thought that this was quite something (I had completed the two supersetted pre-exhaust pullover/machine row sets previous to this). I am considering seriously adopting your approach to training although I don't mind saying that I'm terrified of injury at those weights (i.e. reducing from 12 reps to 8).
RL
Click to expand...

Do a loading dose of 300 on day one in five divided doses with food and then do 50 per day for at least a week.

Just train very stricly and controlled and you will never hurt yourself with sets of 6-8.

RG:)
 
All of my friends have tried one thing or another, but we all started with SUS 250 and about 7 of us used 250mg/week for a max of 8 weeks and we all gained atleast 20lbs. So I agree with the less is just as good. By the way I kept 12 of those pounds.
 
Sust@250mgs for 8 weeks would probably work if you are less than 200lbs to begin with. IMO, a larger person(200+lbs) would need just a little more to see good results.
 
Mike P.T. said:
Although I do agree with you that far too many people on here use too high of a dose to get that quick fix(competitive vets do not apply because in all honesty, they do what they have to do even though personally I would never) you also have to remember that not everyone on here has the genetics of the individuals you just mentioned. They were your genetic elite. They didn't even have access to proper training and supplements back then. Another thing is that you never know if they lied about their doseages either. I mean how do you really know if that's all they used.

I have even changed my mind about longer more moderate cycles(6months I tried just this past cycle) for my personal goals and will do moderate length(8-10 weeks on) moderately low doseage cycles for my upcoming cycles from now on. Everyone has their priorites and mine have definately changed.

BTW - The newbie cycles you mentioned are excellent suggestions.
Click to expand...
Access to PROPER TRAINING? What does that mean.Everything we do now was 1st done by bodybuilders long before us.
 
way too much

I have always said that most BB use way too much AAS.However,i believe alot of people need to use this much in order to compensate for their lack of proper training.
 
RealGains, do you think the pros tell the truth on how much gear they used? Nope they say they use alittle so we assume they are "genetic" freaks, but I belive they have done more.
 
Well as I expected, I am getting emails now from people who started their first cycle at 250mg/wk of test, are now 5-6 weeks in, and they want to know if their gear is fake. One woman put her husband on his first cycle with 250mg/wk and nothing so I said, "who told you to do that?" "REALGAINS did" "Didn't you see the post on Elite"? How are you going to give these people back their virginity? You're not, you can't, you are not responsible. It's probably their fault because they didn't eat right or train right or whatever else comes to mind.

It's a shame these people used up their only chance at virgin receptors with 250mg/wk.

Ridiculous.
 
Test 750mg-1000mg weeks 1-2
Test 500mg-750mg weeks 3-8
400-600mg of Eq

You didn't say how big the male is or what his goals are so those are ranges. The size and goals are the most important factors.
You have to know if a guy is training to be a body builder, Cyclist, Power lifter, whatever, in order to determine what he should use.
But for BBing those are a good jumping off point.
 
ulter said:
Test 750mg-1000mg weeks 1-2
Test 500mg-750mg weeks 3-8
400-600mg of Eq

You didn't say how big the male is or what his goals are so those are ranges. The size and goals are the most important factors.
You have to know if a guy is training to be a body builder, Cyclist, Power lifter, whatever, in order to determine what he should use.
But for BBing those are a good jumping off point.
Click to expand...

For an athlete, I'd decrease the test dose just a bit to 500mg/week.

Test bloat is not good for athletes.

Sometimes arimidex doesn't combat this.

250mg Test/week? LOL

Realgains, I like your "low dose is better" mentality, but thats just in regrds to harsher drugs like winstrol, anadrol, fina and some others.

In regards to test, deca, EQ, anavar and a few others, thats just not the case.

I have yet to see someome get screwed up on 500-750mg Test/week.

Fonz
 
250mg's per week will not do jack shit! I've seen this dose performed many times by all ages, and by first time cyclers. It is not uncommon to see a newbie take this dose, this is nothing new. This is a worthless dosage. Anything less than 500mg's of test is a wasted cycle.

Bill Roberts wrote an article for Meso and Dan's Dirty Dieting where he stated that steroid users need to determine what kind of body that they are looking for before starting up. Ifyou want to be a little, skinny model, then just stick to the Primo and non-aromatizable drugs. HOWEVER, if you want to grow, then test, fina, A-50/D-bol, fina, etc...at higher dosages need to be used.

If you want to gain a measly 5 pounds then maybe these cycles are for you, but if you want to grow, then don't waste your damn money people. Test at 600-1000mg's should be a base in all cycles in my opinion. In fact, I will not take below 1000mg's of total juice per week for mass gains. If you all think that these pro's, national competitors, etc...are using these doses with the results you are expecting then don't come bitchin' about it. Yes, there are some genetic freaks that can get away with a lot less, but even they have to bump it up at some point. I am not a big fan of 2-3 and above grams of sauce, either. My point is, don't expect to really grow off these cycles mentioned in the thread unless you have exceptional genetics.

In fact, I wish E2 would come lay the smack down on this thread.

BMJ
 
I read an article a while back by Dan Duchaine called, "Dick and Jane's First Steroid". He said a newbie looking to REALLY grow needed Test@600-1000mgs a week for a First Cycle. No Dbol, Deca, Tren, or EQ!!
 
missing a simple biological reality!

.....evryone's system is diffrent!

.....some get drunk on 1 shot of tequila others it takes 4 shots!

.....some can take 1 ephedrine an feel 'freaked out" some take 3 get a total confident charge off it an feel great.

...why not start small an see how your body responds!?????
 
It's true everyone's different, but by starting too low you waste your virgin receptors. Any guru worth a tab of Dbol will tell you that a "properly executed" First Cycle is your best cycle.
 
One comment to start.....receptors DO NOT respond better to juice as "Virgins". The reason early cycles are so successful is because one is usually not even at ones natural maximum weight (ie: a lean 190 at 5'9 or 10") The more lean muscle weight one gains the harder it is to produce further gains, it has nothing to do with virgin receptors.

LOW DOSES ARE PLENTY! Remember the VAST MAJORITY of men on this site are not even at their natural maximum weights.

SO....#1 learn how to eat rest and train properly first and gain a good deal of muscle WITHOUT steroids and then if you want to try them start small and be followed by your doctor.

One reason why some guys take so much damn juice is because they don't have a F-ing clue how to train properly . Train on the basic compound movements and train very hard with few sets and few days in the gym each week. Focus on progressive poundage increases weekly in small to tiny jumps....once the going gets tough 5 pounds per week even on the squat is too much. AND STOP reading those glossy magazines as they are full of shit! (for the vast majority)

TESTOSTERONE....most young lucky men produce about 70- 80 mg of testosterone per week, maybe 90 if you are really lucky. NOW LISTEN UP(sorry but I am a bit pissed) 250 mg of cyp minus ester weight gives about 180 mg of testosterone. That gives a bro OVER TWICE AS MUCH total test per week than one would get while natural!!! Any one that cannot gain well on that is doing something wrong for sure!

So 250-300mg of test per week is PLENTY for the average recreational lifter that isn't at his natural max weight...and how many of you guys are 5'9" and a lean 190 without steroids? NOT MANY! 500mg per week is the sane max dose of test in my books for this type of bro.

GO AHEAD and take that 750 mg ....you might gain a little better but I can tell you one thing you are going to have a lot more sides with that dose...be prepared for a lot of acne on average and some big time hair loss if you have the genetics for male pattern baldness and not a few men will have some prosate issure with this dose as well.

I gained very well with my first cycle which was only 400 of deca per week and I was already 205. You can take slightly larger doses with the milder hormones like deca and EQ. 250-300 of test will produce about the same gains as 400 of deca and maybe more in some.

Quadsweep kept around 20 pounds on his very first cycle and that was with 250 of sust per week....why you say??... BECAUSE HE KNEW HOW TO TRAIN, EAT AND REST PROPERLY.

Save the large doses for when you need them and that is when you are at least 10 pounds above your natural max weight. Then big doses often ARE INDEED NEEDED but why subject your body to the stress of large doses when you do not need to. Thats said ....how many of you are really looking to be a lean 250 pounds anyway...not that many I think.

RG

:(
 
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Newbies to juice really need to listen because Real is correct. Start with low dosages. It will save you $$ and you will have some place to go. I see all these cycles on the boards that look like mine after 8 years of gear use. Hell I do not think I was over 750mg after 7 years and I was competing as a heavyweight! Start low you can always go up.

Quad
 
ulter said:
Test 750mg-1000mg weeks 1-2
Test 500mg-750mg weeks 3-8
400-600mg of Eq

You didn't say how big the male is or what his goals are so those are ranges. The size and goals are the most important factors.
You have to know if a guy is training to be a body builder, Cyclist, Power lifter, whatever, in order to determine what he should use.
But for BBing those are a good jumping off point.
Click to expand...


You can't be serious Ulter?!
1000mg-1350mg of gear for a first cycle! Remember bro most of these guys are not even at their natural maximum weight so that is way over kill and a waste of money.
Maybe if you are truely AT your natural max then this dose MIGHT not be too much but how many on this board are doing their first cycle after years of training naturally to reach their natural max weight?...NOT MANY BRO.

The recreational lifter looking to get to his natural max weight and a little higher need to not use more than 500mg of test per week IF he is even a "half assed" bodybuilder.
Leave the bigger doses for when you are at least 10 pounds above your natural max weight( ie: 200 pounds of pretty lean mass at 5'9 or 10")

RG:(
 
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Quad, what you can get away with and what the average guy can get away with are very far apart.
Real, Yes I am serious. How long have you been cycling? How long have you been watching all your friends get into it and start their cycles?
You've been around this game for a year now. This time last year you didn't know a damn thing about steroid cycling.
I have been doing this for neary 20 years I have seen HUNDREDS of guys start down this road and I know from experience that your 250mg/wk is a waste. Way back on page 1-2 of this thread I posted that the risks of infection, the law, acne, balding, etc are all the same at 250 as they are at 750 and the gains are not.

Don't take any of this personally bro. But you and quad don't WTF you're talking about when it comes to this subject.
 
ulter said:
Quad, what you can get away with and what the average guy can get away with are very far apart.
Real, Yes I am serious. How long have you been cycling? How long have you been watching all your friends get into it and start their cycles?
You've been around this game for a year now. This time last year you didn't know a damn thing about steroid cycling.
I have been doing this for neary 20 years I have seen HUNDREDS of guys start down this road and I know from experience that your 250mg/wk is a waste. Way back on page 1-2 of this thread I posted that the risks of infection, the law, acne, balding, etc are all the same at 250 as they are at 750 and the gains are not.

Don't take any of this personally bro. But you and quad don't WTF you're talking about when it comes to this subject.
Click to expand...

I will comment on this tomorrow! Goodnight!

Quad
 
This is the thing...

All opinion is based on perspective. For example: In my younger days I could really sock away the booze. Never had a "problem" but I developed a pretty good tolerence. These days I hardly drink and one beer gets me buzzed. Now if someone told me 15 years ago that one beer got them bzzed I'd either laugh, tell them they didn't know what they were talking about, or called them a pussy.

The fact of the matter is, although RG may be new to this, he's absolutely right. If someone can make gains without sauce, doubling their tetosterone can only increase their muscle building capabilities. Someone who doesn't see that has either gone too far over the edge with drugs or doesn't now how to train.

Now Quad is a guy who MUST take high dosages. For the rest of us, taking competive dosages is just stupid. It's like buying a $20,000.00 set of golf clubs to go play miniature golf. If Quad is a guy who knows how to use high dose anabolics successully and yet is aware that newbies don't need a lot of gear, saying that he does't know what he's talking about is utter (or ulter, as the case may be) foolishness.

I had the utmost respect for Dan Duchaine, but he was wrong on this one. But Dan liked to fuck with people, ya know? I wonder if he believed it himself.

Bill Roberts is just an idiot and a quote from him is meaningless.

Saying that you make the most of your first cycle is as stupid as saying; "The first time you drink alcohol, you should drink as much as possible o get the best high of your life!" It's just idiotic. But if you can't see that, there's probably nothing anyone can say to change your mind.
 
First off, let me say I RESPECT all of your advice and opinions(RealGains, Quadsweep, Ulter, Nelson, etc..). I'm not on par with ANY of you guys, scientifically or in experience. But, I would say moderate doses should(can) be used. Somewhere between the 750-1000mgs of Test and 600mgs of EQ that Ulter advocates and 250mgs of Test that Realgains advises. IMO, I would NEVER, EVER advise any newbie to start out with 1000mgs of Test because I wouldn't do it. Plus I feel that it's just not needed, but hey that's me. What do I know??:p
 
ulter said:
Quad, what you can get away with and what the average guy can get away with are very far apart.
Real, Yes I am serious. How long have you been cycling? How long have you been watching all your friends get into it and start their cycles?
You've been around this game for a year now. This time last year you didn't know a damn thing about steroid cycling.
I have been doing this for neary 20 years I have seen HUNDREDS of guys start down this road and I know from experience that your 250mg/wk is a waste. Way back on page 1-2 of this thread I posted that the risks of infection, the law, acne, balding, etc are all the same at 250 as they are at 750 and the gains are not.

Don't take any of this personally bro. But you and quad don't WTF you're talking about when it comes to this subject.
Click to expand...

Ok, Lets get this going! First off, where do you get off saying I do not know what I am talking about?? Where do you get off with this self proclaiming Guru status? In my opinion you give bad advice to newbies. If a person with great genetics followed your advice they would not know that 250mg of sust may give them great gains and they could use far less gear at first. If you start at 1200mg where do you go from there? I have been around for a long time too and while I do have good genetics I suppose, I do not have great genetics, I just work hard and eat right with my gear use. I have never used HGH (yet) and I compete nationally as you know but it has taken me years to get to this level. Consistency is the key. If you require 1200mg your first time out of the gate to make gains you probably have no business using gear in the first place. If you have been in the "game" for 20 years what kind of gains have you made with these high doses. If you are not big as hell after 20 years of high doses you may need to ask is it worth the health risks? Do you compete? If no and you do not make great gains off high doses what is the point? If I did not compete I would not juice at all and if I did I certainly would not do high doses. I think people need to evaluate the risk to benefit ratio and see if it is worth the risk. 250 mg for 10 weeks poses no risk while 1200mg does without a doubt. So why not start low see how you react and proceed from there. Your line of thinking is irrational and poorly thought out. You need to consider people's well being and age as well as what gains that may make. This is not a game and these are drugs not benign substances........ As I write this it seems we had this discussion back when I came here. Looks like not much has changed huh. I am not trying to dog you, I am just trying to make some points.

Quad
 
"If you have been in the "game" for 20 years what kind of gains have you made with these high doses."
I went from 160 to 255 in 3 years.

Most of the rest of what you posted centers around your belief that only competitors should use AS at normal cycling levels. Macro is 6 230, E2 6 240. Ranger 6 240. You are telling me that because they don't compete they shouldn't do the cycles they do. How do think they got that big? Have you ever seen an E2 cycle?You are a nice guy and well meaning but what possible business is it of yours why anyone uses AS.

A guru? Health risks?
I don't know about that but I have watched an awful lot of people cycle for very long periods and absolutely none of them have any health problems.
 
"You need to consider other peoples well being...this is not a game."

Well said Quadsweep. And it's something some people will never recognize.

ulter:160 to 255 in 3 years? Big deal. Getting big isn't difficult if you roid to the max and eat like a horse. Anyone can do it. Oddly enough, I've seen lots of guys who've grown like this, and they all look like bloated toads. No abs. No shape. Just big and puffy. And often fat.

Shit, Arnold was 30 pounds lighter than you when he won the '76 Olympia. Do you think you're that much more awesome than he was?
 
Nelson WTF does Arnold have to do with anything here.
The discussion is about beginning doses for cycling and you're talking about what Arnold weighed at the O.
Arnold? Your first drunk? You need to put the cap back on your Whiteout bottle.
I don't measure my successes in life by how much I weigh or did weigh or will weigh. I simply answered a question put to me.
If you know Body Builders who can add 20 pounds of mass per year on 250mg then you have been on some other planet meeting them.
 
This reminds me of a time I said to someone: "You can drag a horse to water - but you can't make him drink." And the guys response was; "What does this have to do with horses?"

Maybe my analogies are too abtruse. So lets start fresh.

What works for one person, or what one person thinks is best, is ultimately irrelevant. Whenever you put something into your body, you're taking a risk and it's wise to test the waters. I've made the point before about starting slow, as have many others. Quadsweep put it well about getting the most from the least amount of juice. I believe anyone with an ounce of sense will understand that. Be that as it may, if someone wants to take four grams of test a week and a handful of Anadrol every five minutes, I say; "Enjoy yourself." But don't come back and say, "Gee, I never thought it would hurt me."

Or to use one last metaphorical comment: "A word to wise...isn't necessary. It's the fool who needs advice...but usually doesn't take it."
 
Have only used winstrol, primo, and Eq in low dosages and have made phenominal gains. I started with 1 primo only cycle , 3 winstrol cycles, and just got done with Eq and Winstrol. Also used clen from time to time- started useing liquidex for last two cycles and always used clomid post cycle. Did those cycles over a course of 3.5 years and always kept protein intake high. I trained 5 days a week with intensity, worked on areas that needed work twice a week.
Started out below 170 pounds, now weigh a little over 2 bills yo. I was a skinny bitch now I'm huge. 6'2 2 bills. Need more size on arms though, so site injecting the V.
On top of that, the best thing about slow steady growth is you keep practically all your gains. Arnold even said you can tell the difference bertween a physique that has grown over time and has a good foundation than a physique that grew too quickly from impatience and abused the gear. The physique with the foundation rests better on the persons frame.
:freak:
 
Okay I am going to put this dose thing to rest once and for all...he he he .

A very close friend of mine who has trained naturally for YEARS and has been stuck at his natural maximum weight for years (5'10" and 195 lean) decided to try steroids.

I strongly suggested that he be followed by a doctor especailly since he is 39 years old.
I recommended Ulters doctor to him, endochrinologist Dr. Scuggs.

Dr. Scuggs has many many steroid using patients BTW.

Scuggs put him on 100mg of nandrolone and 100mg of test(US human grade) injecting every 4th day. Thats a total of 350mg of juice every 7 days. He decided to stay "on" for 12 weeks. He gained a very solid 22 pounds. Its been 3 months since the cycle ended and he is still up 18 pounds. This was in a man 39 years of age that was already at his natural max weight. He did, however, have a very solid understanding of how to train properly. He trains low volume and infrequently with few very hard sets on the big basic compound movements. He also ate very well and got at least 8 hours of sleep EVERY NIGHT.

NOTE: Once you stop juice you will eventually go down to your natural max weight. Some are able to keep a little more as steroids can increase the actual number of muscle cells a little.

So you don't need high doses if everything is in order.

Go to www.newhopemed.com
Read "Steroids benefits and pitfalls"
In this acticle Dr. Scuggs say that 350-700mg of juice per week(only half of this being strong androgen testosterone) is MORE than enough for all but the most HARD CORE bodybuilders.

Gee guys...what does "the most hard core mean?" THE HIGHLY COMPETITIVE in my books..like Quadsweep.

RG
:)
 
39 years old and 350mgs of Gear with a 22lb gain! That's pretty darn impressive!! 350-700mgs a week sounds good to me... I'm a little larger than the average guy(6'4" 245lbs 9-10%bf), but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
 
What i find interesting in this whole thread is that everybody is expressing they're OWN OPINIONS.

You are NOT backing it up with scientific evidence.

If this board was run based on everybodies opinon, we's still be stuck in the Stone Age in relation to AAS.

Nelson, Realgains and Quad:

#1 you say 500mg/week is better than 1000mgs/week in regards
to physiological probelms.

Ok. Prove it.

I don't want HEAR SAY i.e. "My buddy told me" or "I heard". What I and others need is REAL lab work, real evidence not just words.

Being cautious is all said and good BUT what we aspire here is to
MAXIMIZE the effectiveness of the AAS we are taking.

FYI: I STRESS maximize the efficiency.

Your cycles do not seem to be doing that.

Ponder on that before answering.

I'm not being patronizing, but I am going to STEER the thread into a more scientific view point as we seem to be stuck with the rhetoric of two opposing view points.
 
Fonz said:
What i find interesting in this whole thread is that everybody is expressing they're OWN OPINIONS.

You are NOT backing it up with scientific evidence.

If this board was run based on everybodies opinon, we's still be stuck in the Stone Age in relation to AAS.

Nelson, Realgains and Quad:

#1 you say 500mg/week is better than 1000mgs/week in regards
to physiological probelms.

Ok. Prove it.

I don't want HEAR SAY i.e. "My buddy told me" or "I heard". What I and others need is REAL lab work, real evidence not just words.

Being cautious is all said and good BUT what we aspire here is to
MAXIMIZE the effectiveness of the AAS we are taking.

FYI: I STRESS maximize the efficiency.

Your cycles do not seem to be doing that.

Ponder on that before answering.

I'm not being patronizing, but I am going to STEER the thread into a more scientific view point as we seem to be stuck with the rhetoric of two opposing view points.
Click to expand...


You forgot Ulter Fonz.:D

I think Dr. Scuggs knows a thing or two after all he is an endochrinologist dealing with hundreds of steroid users. When he says 350-700mg of gear is more than enough for all but the most hard core then I think we would be wise to listen up.


RG
 
Last edited:
Fonz,
I made a similar point to yours on another thread. Too many people base opinions on little more than what they want to believe.

However, in the case of what dosages are effective, I believe the question should be, at what point does the risk to benefit ratio become disfavorable? And that is something that will continue to be disputed for some time, I'm sure.

Of course, more drugs will yield more result, but it also yields more potential risks. Prove it? Does anyone really need to provide a litany of health risks associated with steroids? But oh yeah, there will always be the guy who says "I do this and that and I'm fine." Everybody's fine...until they aren't -- and there've been enough cases of that, as you well know.

My stance on issue is this: use the least amount to get the most result. 1600mgs will not produce twice the gains of 800mgs. But if someone wants that little extra effect that a bigger risk will give, god bless 'em.
I've also seen firsthand, many many times over, how small gains are maintained while large gains are lost. Take it for what it's worth.

I believe Quadsweep and myself are speaking from a position of knowledge and experience. Realgains is promoting caution. With so many fools giving reckless, erroneous, and irresponsible advice on this board, I think we're the last ones who should be called out for their views on this matter.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Fonz,
I made a similar point to yours on another thread. Too many people base opinions on little more than what they want to believe.

However, in the case of what dosages are effective, I believe the question should be, at what point does the risk to benefit ratio become disfavorable? And that is something that will continue to be disputed for some time, I'm sure.

Of course, more drugs will yield more result, but it also yields more potential risks. Prove it? Does anyone really need to provide a litany of health risks associated with steroids? But oh yeah, there will always be the guy who says "I do this and that and I'm fine." Everybody's fine...until they aren't -- and there've been enough cases of that, as you well know.

My stance on issue is this: use the least amount to get the most result. 1600mgs will not produce twice the gains of 800mgs. But if someone wants that little extra effect that a bigger risk will give, god bless 'em.
I've also seen firsthand, many many times over, how small gains are maintained while large gains are lost. Take it for what it's worth.

I believe Quadsweep and myself are speaking from a position of knowledge and experience. Realgains is promoting caution. With so many fools giving reckless, erroneous, and irresponsible advice on this board, I think we're the last ones who should be called out for their views on this matter.
Click to expand...

This was my point exactly! I always fall on the side of caution when giving advice. You have to remember that we do not know the people on here personally and with all the years I have been in this sport, I have come to realize that there are a lot of obcessive compulsive personalities here (me included). You suggest an inch and they may take a mile!

Quad
 
This thread has been an awesome read!!!! I really appreciate the fact that although there were different opinions from different people that it did not turn into a useless flame war..

everyone here presented some GOOD points!!

Thanks.
 
I am a new user and this thread has really made sense to me. When I first starting researching on this and other boards whenever I would ask about first cycles I usually got the standard answers : 40mgs of Dianabol wks 1-5 combined with 400mgs Deca and 500 mgs Test for a total 10-12 week cycle.
There were a few variations of this, but usually this was the recommendation. My thought process is that I need to find, through trial and error, the lowest levels of AS that achieve's my desired result. The only way to do this is to experiment with lower dosages and then adjust accordingly. Why should I start with higher doses when the lower dose may accomplish my goals? Saves me money and lowers the risk for sides. So, thanks for this very informative thread.
 
I want to start a Dinabol or deca stack which would be the best for a hard gainer like myself? Very great thread, informed me of alot of information...just very skeptical about peoples opinoins sometimes.
 
Hard Gainer Blast said:
I want to start a Dinabol or deca stack which would be the best for a hard gainer like myself? Very great thread, informed me of alot of information...just very skeptical about peoples opinoins sometimes.
Click to expand...

You need to learn to train without steroid first before you can make good use of low dose cycles.
You need to train very infrequently, never more than three days per week on a three way split and twice per week on a two way split may be better(Upper body/lower body). Train on the basic compound movements for limited work sets ...like 3 sets per body part.. BUT HARD! Squats are a must so do them very hard and go deep. Also include some form of deadlift in your routine. Try to add tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly.www.fractionalplates.com

www.hardgainer.com

You don't need to use more than 400 of deca per week and 20 of d-bol in divided doses for the first 4 weeks only. Thats MORE THAN ENOUGH! Actually you don't need the d-bol at all but deca/d-bol is a good stack.
If you can make gains without gear then this plan will be a good one....but you must learn to train properly without gear and be able to make gains without gear first.

The reason so many recreational lifters use large doses of gear is because they do not know how to train without gear.

Eat all the time but avoid saturated fat.
Sleep a minimum of 8 hours every night.
Limit cardio to three 30 minutes sessions per week.
Do no other sports.

AND be followed by your doctor.

RG:)
 
Thank you for this info. As a newbie, I've been confused about all the different cycles that others have been recommending. I will follow ur advice and go with the smaller dbol dosages to start with.
 
Thanks Real gains, What about using test instead of deca or sustanon? I should be on the right track with the information givin, I have been told by doctors that my metabolism is faster then most, so if i use a stack should i continue to take my weight gainer powder and protien and creatine?
 
Hard Gainer Blast said:
Thanks Real gains, What about using test instead of deca or sustanon? I should be on the right track with the information givin, I have been told by doctors that my metabolism is faster then most, so if i use a stack should i continue to take my weight gainer powder and protien and creatine?
Click to expand...

By your questions I can tell that you need to do a lot more research bro. Take your time and in the mean time learn how to train like a hard gainer.
Test is test and yes it would be good.

RG
:)
 
Ok I'm going to prove to that high dosages are not required to obtain a national level phyisque. I have been training clean for 11 months so my receptors are wide opening and ready to go. I have been learning my body with out chemicals and pushing the envelope with training methods. I'm 26 weeks out from the junior nationals and 30 weeks out form the NPC . Gentically I'm very lean to begin with so gaining lean muscle is not a problem. Currently I'm 5'9 210 at 5.5% bf with out gear.

this is my cycle laid out

4 weeks 420 protein 300 carbs 80 grams fat (1/3 to 1/2 from EFAS calories do rotate accordning to traing and non training days
100 mgs fina every m,w,f
75 mgs Winni per day divided into 2 dosages of 35 mgs spaced out 8 -10 hours a part
1 propescia /day
4-5 ius insulin 3 times a day for 2 days a week (legs, back day )

4 weeks (beverly diet) 3 day low 2 spike meals m, th
recovery clomid armidex

6 weeks caloires 400 protein 200 carbs 80 -100 grams fat (mostly efas)
1 cc sus/ 1 cc of 200 mg eq every 4-5 days
3 ius gh a day 5 days on 2 off
2.5 mg of femura a day

2 weeks off
gh keeps going

4-6 weeks start carb rotation
75 mgs fina/100 mgs prop m,w,f
75 mgs winni daily
2.5 mgs femura
3 ius gh 5 days on 2 off

cardio 3-4 days a week high and low intesnity done first thing in the morning


supplement
BCAAS
Whey protein
ALA
GLutemine
recovery rx
EFAS

my goals 220-225 at 5% by 8 weeks out to come in as a full light heavy weight

I will post results and pics in 4 weeks

Good luck to all in future competition

Hardasnails
 
Quadsweep said:
There you go Real.....Stuck! While I do think people should use low doses as much as possible for as long as, I do have to admit that my dosages have accelerated a lot this year. I am still using far less than many of the people I compete aginst but I have posted my cycles and they are pretty high now but if you wanna run with the big dogs..........If it is just for yourself and you do not compete take your time a little bit......Rome was not built in a day!

Quad

P.S. Good Post Realgains!
Click to expand...
well said bro
 
Re: Newbie cycles

>After doing much digging in regard to the way men used to cycle >years ago I have come to the conclusion that 98% of us use too >much gear....please read on.

>I have always been a believer in using as little gear as possible >but even I have used way too much in the past and this has >resulted in big sides.

<...>

>10-20 of d-bol alone in four divided doses per day for 6 weeks

how's this for a short simple light oral cycle

week 1 - 2 5mg dbol a day
week 2 - 3 5mg dbol a day + 2 winny a day
week 3 - 2 5mg dbol a day + 3 winny a day

at 21 days it matches my gf's pill cycle...

low dosages for just 3 weeks should have mild side effects...

and I'm not expecting to put on 100# of beef.

and with 1 100ct bottle of dbol and 4 20 tab strips of winstrol you can do it twice with 5 weeks in between (again matching gf's pill cycle)
 
Hi,

I agree.

the pro bb's do look like freaks...

Scott Steiner looks good.


The Terminator said:
Well I am sure that today's top guys are using FAR more than anyone ever even thought of 30 years ago, but look at the differences in physiques, pro BB's used to be good looking men 25 years ago, they look like circus freaks now...but I don't think anyone will ever know for sure exactly what they took except themselves. I seriously doubt they will ever come out and give exact cycles.
Click to expand...
 
ChrisOh said:
not everyone reacts the same to smaller doses, those guys are probably exceptions and reacted very well. In my first cycle, i needed 100mg of winny/day and almost 100mg/fina to see results, lower doses would've given me crap. I did everything right, didnt feel a pump till i upped to those doses... but i did gain 25lbs on a cutting cycle :)
Click to expand...
Is that all you took and gained 25 lb? what kind of diet did you do? sounds like something I would like to do. :mix:
 
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