21yr old from my gym...DEAD!

[40butpumpin]

Zyg: I didn't feel this was the time or place to start espousing my personal opinion of recommended dosages. I touch upon that in the book and elaborate more deeply in an upcoming book , but I'm not trying to hawk sales, it's just a complicated subject and deserves more than a casual mention.

In regards to the post, I was mearly trying to bring things "down to earth" so to speak, I'm a writer, and I felt to need to write about what happened. I'm sorry if you found it "old."

In an effort to be fair, I will address a few things, now that it's been brought up.

Some of the advice I see on this board is, in my opinion, beyond irreponsible. But everyone has a right to do what they want and it isn't my job to stop them. People get defensive. They get antagonistic. I've even been accused of being "jeoulous of not being 260 pounds, when I can't imagine why ANYONE would WANT to be 260 pounds! But that's me.

Incidentally, I also trust that when liftsiron says the book is book for beginners I presume he means it will help beginners -- not that the information is basic and mainstream. I can't tell you how many publishers said it was too radical because it isn't what "the establishment" says. My guess is that lifer is very advanced.

Here are a few quick points about drug use. Take it for what it's worth.

Recommending anything more than 400mgs a week to a first timer: Dumb.

Anyone taking more than 1500mgs a week: Dumb.

Staying on for more than 8 weeks: Dumb.

Using veterinarian products: Dumb.

Using Anadrol or Halo: Dumb

Using Clomid for weeks: Dumb.

Using Insulin: Dumb.

Using Insulin with GH: Very Dumb.

Bridging. Dumb

Using Cytomel, Clenbuteral, RU486, Dopamine, Synthol, Nubain, Diuetics, or DNP: Insane.

Now I'm sure I've pissed off half the board with this. But fuck it. That's the way I see it. And I've seen a lot.

If this hurts the sale of my book, so be it. If it makes one person think twice about doing something stupid, it's more than worth it.



.

Excellent post, I agree with this 100%. Nelson you're a good bro, doing (or saying) the right thing despite the consequences. That's called integrity and there's nothing else like it.

And to all you band-wagon jumpers grow some balls and form an opinion for yourself. IMO that is.

 

[TooJacked]

This is Bull-Shit plain and simple. 21 year olds die every day, whether they take roids or not. Freak shit happens sometimes, people die out of nowhere. I bet this kid didn't even use large amounts and I'll bet that steroids were NOT the cause of his death. If it was synthol, then He should have been smarter and aspirated. Whenever your injecting yourself with anything you have to be careful. I am in perfect health and I'm 20 yrs old and use gear. I get my blood work done periodically and I'm fine everytime. Of course, my HDL levels sometimes go higher than they should be, among a few other minor and reversible side effects, but I'm in no more danger of dying than anyone else.
I feel for the kid and his family, but I don't believe that steroids are to blame for this. Anyone that thinks that taking steroids is going to kill you, then get your head out of your ass and don't even bother taking them, leaves more for me.

 

[liftsiron]

Nelson Montana your book is a good book for the inexperienced, it does reiterate many basic fundementals of weight training, that is not bad, that is good. It took me years to learn that it is the basics that build muscle, not multi tri sets performed in break neck speed. Yes you do go against some mainstream beliefs i.e. your stand on aerobics. I by no means was discrediting your book, In fact it reinforced my own philosphy regarding weight training and diet etc. I do reccommend it as a good book for anyone looking to advoid many common pitfalls that limit progress toward bodybuilding. I agree with your ideas about 90%. Some areas where we differ are, I believe in bridgeing when necessary, example being a competitor who has two shows five months apart. I like longer low to moderate dose cycles. I really like QV products. I would like to see you write a really advanced book for those of us who are hardcore at heart.

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Uh....

Sweet, I was looking for an argument to use against the defendant on a patent lawsuit I'm currently working on... I think you have given me an idea.

"Your honor... the defendant's use of my clients patent is 'Dumb'" -- The Plaintiff rests.

Nice factual backup... ass.

C-ditty

May not be relevant to your case, but that defense does exist....it's called ASSUMPTION OF RISK.

Gear users should know that it comes with inherent dangers. We get the stuff illegally, we use it without a doctor's supervisions, we know there are risks of side effects from use. Even with the best efforts to educate ourselves and be careful, those risks still exist.

So, someone who does stupid things is assuming the risk of the consequences. The supplier of goods should not be liable for the resulting harm.

 

[liftsiron]

Gear users should know that it comes with inherent dangers. We get the stuff illegally, we use it without a doctor's supervisions, we know there are risks of side effects from use. Even with the best efforts to educate ourselves and be careful, those risks still exist. So, someone who does stupid things is assuming the risk of the consequences. The supplier of goods should not be liable for the resulting harm.

I agree 100%. We make our own hopefully educated choice to use gear, and the consequences both good and bad are our own doing. To many people in our society, fuck up then try to pass the blame on to someone else.

 

[Zyglamail]

Zyg: I didn't feel this was the time or place to start espousing my personal opinion of recommended dosages. I touch upon that in the book and elaborate more deeply in an upcoming book , but I'm not trying to hawk sales, it's just a complicated subject and deserves more than a casual mention.

Nelson, I didnt mean to make it sound like I wanted you to reiterate your book here in this thread. You are very passionate about your views and I respect that, im in no way trying to discredit you, hope you didnt take it that way. I also wasnt trying to hijak this thread, but invarable did, my condolences to the friends and family of the deceased.

However, your reponse to me is exactly the kind of response that I do find a little aggrivating. I said I was interested in your book and I meant that. I like to see other peoples perspective. No matter how open minded we think we are no single person can see things from every angle and view so I honestly do like to see others points of view. What I mean by aggrivating is that you state your stance about so many things you are against but do not go into any details backing up why you feel the way you do. Granted, a lot of people here just want a laundry list of do's and dont's and you have provided that quiet nicely, but I would have to say the majority of participating members here want more than a laundry list, they want facts, evidence, studies etc. Bottom line is most people here want facts not opinions. That is not to say your opinions arent backed by good solid evidence, you just fail to produce any and leave people hanging.

 

[40butpumpin]

...I also wasnt trying to hijak this thread, but invarable did, my condolences to the friends and family of the deceased...

... but do not go into any details backing up why you feel the way you do. Granted, a lot of people here just want a laundry list of do's and dont's and you have provided that quiet nicely, but I would have to say the majority of participating members here want more than a laundry list, they want facts, evidence, studies etc. Bottom line is most people here want facts not opinions. That is not to say your opinions arent backed by good solid evidence, you just fail to produce any and leave people hanging.

Bro, I don't believe that you, or Nelson, have sent this thread in a direction that isn't ultimately going to be beneficial and important, especially to the younger group reading it.

I realize your comment was directed at Nelson, however, if you would indulge me, I would like to respond -- for me.

I can only hope it's pretty obvious to us that it's no coincidence that the ones that are dying within our would are the young and inexperienced. To the type of mentality that is most times associated with a 20+ year old, things must be put simpy. The simpler the better in fact. I don't mean that as an insult but let's face it, we've all been there, it's life at 500 mph. And that's why Nelson's post is important -- to me. I agree that there are bro's on here that are interested in the underlying science behind things; "facts, evidence, studies," however, I can tell you very confidently that the younger user -- which I believe is the vast majority here -- doesn't give a shit about any such studies. They only want overnight physical perfection and will do just about anything to get it. Since they are the ones that are dying, they are the ones that need to be catered to. I give Nelson a lot of credit for being a voice of reason, his thoughts and comments are consisent and conservative and give a good, solid, healthy balance to a excellent board. So I guess what I'm saying is that the message "be smart, be safe, be healthy" doesn't need scientific backing, it's just not necessary -- for me.

My comments come with all due respect, Zyg, I hope you don't see them in any other light.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Fair enough Zyg. But since this is a discussion group I don't want to bog down the pace by jumping on a soap box. Personally I think its rude when people grandstand and write 3 page dissertations. Sometimes it's valuable, but as a journalist, if I want to elaborate on something I believe it should be within a context that allows me to do so adequately. Having said that, I think I've provided quite a bit of information on these posts and answer every private mail. (My reply box doesn't allow for more than 1000 characters though).

I should also mention that I'm not about to start researching references for the satisfaction of anyone who demands it. I read thousands of pages of data every month and then draw conclusions based on my evaluation and experience -- often in contradiction to what the studies say. If anyone has a problem with that, they probably won't like my work. If you want calculations and graphs, buy a textbook. I'm not interested in debating academia or arguing minutia. I deal with real world evidence. I'm a writer and what I do is to try and present information in an entertaining manner. If that works for you, cool. If not, no hard feelings.

Hope this helps to clarify things bro.

 

[Zyglamail]

I can only hope it's pretty obvious to us that it's no coincidence that the ones that are dying within our would are the young and inexperienced. To the type of mentality that is most times associated with a 20+ year old, things must be put simpy. The simpler the better in fact. I don't mean that as an insult but let's face it, we've all been there, it's life at 500 mph. And that's why Nelson's post is important -- to me. I agree that there are bro's on here that are interested in the underlying science behind things; "facts, evidence, studies," however, I can tell you very confidently that the younger user -- which I believe is the vast majority here -- doesn't give a shit about any such studies. They only want overnight physical perfection and will do just about anything to get it. Since they are the ones that are dying, they are the ones that need to be catered to. I give Nelson a lot of credit for being a voice of reason, his thoughts and comments are consisent and conservative and give a good, solid, healthy balance to a excellent board. So I guess what I'm saying is that the message "be smart, be safe, be healthy" doesn't need scientific backing, it's just not necessary -- for me.

My comments come with all due respect, Zyg, I hope you don't see them in any other light.

I do see your view here and its a good one, im not saying I disagree with you, or nelson for that matter. Additionally you are very correct that many people do want results and they want them yesterday. However I still feel a little backing goes a long way. No offense to Nelson intended but the same kids that are living at 500mph are going to see comments as "vet gear = dumb" as nothing but idle chatter and just keep racing on. I simply feel that (and this is just an example mind you) "In my experience, I have seen far more infections due to impurities from vet gear. Additionally I have also seen numerous lab tests showing many times vet contains "other" AAS than what the label claims".

Thats just an example of the point im trying to make. Adding a little more to "vet gear = dumb" gives the comment more credibility and doesnt take tons of board space or spew out needless abstract data, but it, in my humble opinion, adds a little more credibility to the statement. Maybe its just me but simply telling me not to do something carries with it very little value, I need to know why. On that same note, I think in order to actually acheive the goals of more intelligent drug use we have to either show people the downside of abuse, the upside of moderation or both.

 

[bazilbb]

i agree fully with Nelson except following

...........Using Clomid for weeks: Dumb................

.

bro why u mentioned clomid use as DUMB among the rest of shit? what u meant by "for weeks"? how many weeks u meant? and why it is DUMB?
input would b great for my info hungry ass.
BarPk