Bill Roberts on Protein intake and Steroids

[MR. BMJ]

I like MS's idea of protein/carb cycling when dieting and bulking. From my results, I just don't like adding too many calories to a bulking cycle as I have found that the fat ratio outweighs the muscle gain. This is of course in excessive amounts, as I understand that on any bulking regimine fat gain will always be a inevitable. I have found that I have not found any difference from my protein varying from the range of 1.0-2.0 grams per pound of bodyweight. Lets say I am eating 4,000 calories. I will cycle my macronutrient ratios to fit this frame (calories will also vary, but this is just an example). As long as my calorie level is the same, the only difference I will receive is added extracellular water weight due to my increased ratios coming from carbs. This gives me a 'soft' feeling/look. Now with protein, I do not necessarily gain more muscle, but the water weight is less profound, thus I am less 'soft' looking. I will reach a plateau with both, therefore I prefer to cycle both during the week.

One thing I do notice, and I don't know if maybe this is a reason why Huck has seen better results when recommending people to boost up the protein to 2+ grams/pounds of BW, but lets say that if I was eating 4,000 calories from a protein intake of 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight and I come to a total halt in gains. Someone suggests that I boost up my protein to 2+ grams/lb of BW. Now, if other macronutrients are not debited, and the dieter simply adds in these added protein calories,....How can one determine if these gains are from bumping up the protein, or just simply from there being an increase in calories???

I do not think that there will ever be an exact amount that can be suggested for optimal gains, as there are just too many factors involved between genders, hormones, races, etc...However, I would like there to be more research directed towards this area to shut out these damn myths/opinions/guesses etc...I guess this is one reason why I picked my major in the field of sport nutrition research (I know it isn't no biochem degree, but I plan on getting that as well. )

I don't like answering or commenting for other's, but in defense of MS, I can absolutely, guarantee that she meant no disrespect to Bill Robert's. And just in case, and to make sure I don't give out too much 'personal' info here...she does have many degrees as well, including a PhD. Aargghhh...hope i'm not in trouble.

As for my answer on protein amount, I have come to the conclusion, through my own successes, that I respond best to an amount between 1.0-2.0 for bulking and 1.2 to 1.8 for dieting...in a cycled manner like previously mentioned.

This is a frustrating topic to debate...lol.

Thanks for the B. Roberts opinion though RG...i'll admit he is a very respectable and knowledgeable guy, and it is always nice to see his opinion on anything. It also gives for a nice debate.

BMJ

 

[wilson6]

My two cents.

What we know from the recent human literature.

Sheffield-Moore et al., 2000, both OX studies.

1) OX alone increases skeletal muscle fractional protein synthesis in a fasted state because it improves intracellular reutilization of amino acids. This is why AAS help to preserve lean mass while dieting.

2) OX at 15 mg/d cut circulating testosterone levels in half in this group of guys in only 5 days. Thus, my guess is that even 10 mg/d in women is likely to shut down LH, FSH and ovarian production of estrogen and disrupt menstrual function in some women. This could potentially lead to a E rebound as was described in one of the recent threads.

3) A state of hyperaminoacidemia (high concentrations of circulating AAs) will also, in the absence of OX increase muscle fractional protein synthesis (FSR). So clearly if you’re protein deficient or lacking frequent protein consumption (every 2 hrs) or using slow-proteins, you’ll limit protein synthesis. I would have to agree with MS in that more frequent protein meals is probably more important than total daily intake. My guess is that 200 grams of protein spread over 8 – 10 feedings would be more effective at maintaining muscle protein synthesis than 300 grams spread over 2 – 3 meals. Remember that circulating essential amino acids appear to be the critical factor, largely independent of circulating anabolic hormones to maintain muscle protein synthesis (Tipton et al., 1999, 2000). Any time circulating concentrations fall, protein synthesis slows considerably regardless of how much juice is in the system.

4) Combining OX with a hyperaminoacidemic state will further increase FSR only if enough amino acids are present because OX increases whole body amino acid uptake thereby decreasing arterial availability of amino acids to skeletal muscle. Therefore, I would say that increasing amino acids during a cycle is important, but only if your protein intake is marginal to begin with. If you taking in 2 – 2.5 g/kg a day, then it probably won’t matter.

5) If you’re dieting, then you have to increase protein intake because you will use more if it for energy, reducing the availability of amino acids for protein synthesis.

6) In the recent study by Bhasin et al., 2001, the subjects (young healthy men that were NOT exercising) increased their lean mass by 7.5, 11.5 and 17.5 lbs over 20 weeks taking 125, 300 and 600 mg of testosterone enanthate, respectively. Their total daily calorie intake was 36 kcal/kg/d and protein was 1.2 g/kg/d. With an average body mass of 75 kg, that amounts to 2700 calories and 90 grams of protein a day. Considering the rather small (by bodybuilding standards) consumption of food and protein and the fact that they weren’t even lifting, 17.5 lbs of lean mass in 20 weeks taking 600 mg of TE a week isn’t bad.

7) Lastly, I’ll put this one out there for comparison. In 1994, Alway compared women bodybuilders that were natural or were juicing. Both groups had similar training routines and diets, and had trained for 6+ years. They were all about 5’ 4” and around 30 yrs of age. The group using AAS intermittently for 6 years averaging 175 mg/wk dosing (combination of Deca, test and winny) had on average about 30 lbs more muscle than the non-AAS users (big difference on a 5’ 4” frame). The AAS users were also 13.8% bodyfat in comparison to the non-users that were about 19% bodyfat. Lastly, the AAS group had Type I and II fiber areas that were 37% and 52% greater than the non-AAS group.

W6

 

[wilson6]

Something else I noticed from this study.

The guys taking 125 mg of test per week gained significant amounts of lean mass even though their total average circulating test was not different from baseline. What this suggests to me is that there is a difference in the peak test levels vs average. In normal guys the zenith and nadir of circulating test is pretty well controlled. However, when just 125 mg of TE is injected, supraphysiological levels are achieved for a day or so following the injection. I believe that it is this brief exposure and/or higher than normal T levels for a 2-3 day period following an injection that accounts for the increase in lean mass in the guys getting a replacement dose.

Never really thought of this much until I read this study, but there are couple of guys in their 40's at the gym with normal T levels, that tried taking 200 mg every 10 days of TE and found that it did indeed help them. Interesting.

W6

 

[NY Muscle]

Ive been following Bill Roberts advice for years..the man knows his stufff...

 

[Realgains]

The #1 impedement in progress on an A/S run is protein consumption.9 out of 10 times when someone comes out with,"I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs",the first question is how much protein are you consuming,and how often?And 9 times out of ten,therein lies the problem,lol.The minute I get the person to jack their intake up to 2+grams per lb of BW daily,and in 3-4 hour intervals-Bingo!The tape measure/scale starts moving.Very important point.

Elites #1 Guru speaks.....LISTEN!

RG

 

[MS]

Looking at the dudes who increased their lean mass by 7.5, 11.5 and 17.5 lbs by consuming no more than 90g protein per day should get you guys thinking. When anyone encounters an idiot who says "I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs", there are other questions you should be asking., such as "which scammer did you get your gear from". I will wager that the problem (if it's not bogus gear) is that they've been eating too much protein for too long and their body was already in full-on protein oxidation mode. There is good experimental evidence for this happening, such as the work of Forslund et al, 2001 who note the dramatic upregulation of enzymes responsible for oxidizing protein for fuel on a high protein diet, and also increasing evidence that the rate, and direction, of change in extracellular concentrations of amino acids (rather than the static concentration, per se) may be more important for stimulating FSR. This has been born out in women (non-AAS users) who show greater nitrogen retention when they take their protein in a pulsed fashion rather than drip-fed throughout the day.

I have no doubt that increasing the protein intake of someone who's already on a chronic high protein diet (I have yet to meet a bodybuilder who wasn't on a high protein diet of some sort, and often chronic) would lead to increased synthesis if they are already suffering from diet induced protein oxidation and are eating the same amount of protein all day every day, since this is hardly the optimal way to meet your protein requirements. But I see it as the original. 'meat head' approach to bodybuilding….more is always better. Realgains, you challenge me with the question 'have I tried it' to which the answer is a definite yes, though I have never used AAS, many of my (female) clients have.. I challenge you with the question, 'have you tried cycling lower amounts of protein?' I would also like to point out that in my experience (since we're obviously resorting to anecdote rather than evidence), a chronically high protein bulking diet leads to greater LBM loss when a trainer starts their equally high protein cutting diet, though thte LBM loss is less in folks on AAS since the AAS helps you RETAIN the protein so you CAN get by on less.

There is no doubt that an excess of amino acids is necessary for optimal muscle growth (with or without AAS). What constitutes 'excess' depends entirely on the habitual protein intake of the person (as well as other factors such as calorie restriction). This can be easily changed by adapting the individual's diet to make them more efficient at using the amino acids available to them rather than the other way around. I mean absolutely no disrespect to any of your gurus, and I'm not questioning their credentials or experience. I'm just pointing out that there are alternatives which allow a bodybuilder to make better gains on less protein by eating smarter rather than more.

 

[Realgains]

Hey MS I like that post better.

But I have tried using less, but not cycling with less. No, actually I guess I do cycle with less as I use far less protein when "off"

All I know is that when I was fixated in the Aurthor Jones/Elington Darden school of thought (only very slightly more protein than a non lifter) I did not see the gains I thought I shoud see. I had all my other ducks in a row as I have always allowed for proper intensity coupled with plenty of rest, days out of the gym and sleep etc. Finially I reluctantly decided to try a high protein diet, at the insistance of my training partner, and the results were immediate and dramatic....but I was on steroids at the time. It must be noted that my total caloric intake was high before I increased my protein intake.

MS you have tried a higher protein diet but only as a natural. You have not examined the difference as a steroid user and that was my whole point. Maybe you should do a study on yourself in this regard.
I think a high protein diet doesn't make a great deal of difference when training naturally, as even .75 grams per pound of body weight is more than enough I think.

Remember now this is coming from a person that was dead against a high protein intake. I used to think think that BBers that used a lot of protein were basically unifomed at the least, or idiots at the worst.

It is no coincedence that other men have experienced the same thing and that all the current guru's recommend increasing protein intake significantly while "on".

As you know not everything needs to be proven with double blind studies. Personal experience through trail and error is at least as important. Science is not always logical. There is so much we do not understand about how the human body works and especially while on anabolic steroids.

All I know is what I have experienced personally. I don't have the science behind my beliefs but I do have 19 years of tinkering experience.


RG

 

[wilson6]

Are you two on diuretics?

W6

 

[Realgains]

Are you two on diuretics?

W6

Ah... no...I'm on tren he he he

I am very mild and sensitive while off

I think MS needs to come over to the dark side for just one cycle of oral primo or something he hehe.


RG

 

[MS]

No, actually I'm retaining fluid at the moment, so I would come in dead last in any pissing contest unless it was against some with complete kidney failure.