Bill Roberts on Protein intake and Steroids

[BronzedGoddess]

What about the kidneys of people that ingest so much protein? What happens in the long run? My husband was just diagnosed as Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetic. And I believe he was told to eat no more than 50g a day because he has to be extra carefull with his kidneys. So that got me thinking and I also want to make sure I take good care of myself so I can push him around in his wheelchair when were are in our 80's (that's a joke between us) Thanks

 

[SteelWeaver]

My question is, if you're cycling protein so low during a bulking phase, how do you not get fat with all the carbs you have to eat instead?

 

[MS]

RE protein intake and kidney damage-

When kidneys are working well, the glomeruli keep protein inside your body. High blood sugar and high blood pressure damage the kidneys’ glomeruli. Diabetes is often associated with high blood pressure and high blood sugar. When the kidneys are damaged, the protein leaks out of the kidneys into the urine. Damaged kidneys do not do a good job of cleaning out waste and extra fluids. So not enough waste and fluids go out of the body as urine. Instead, they build up in your blood. This is a bad thing. Your husband may or may not already have some of these problems. Some times it's hard to tell if a doc tells you to reduce protein BECAUSE there's already some kidney damage/blood pressure/blood sugar problems, or if they're just being cautious and trying to head off problems before they start. Whatever the reason, it doesn't really have any bearing on how much protein someone with healthy kidneys can safely eat. Just make sure you always drink plenty of clean, fresh water when you're eating high protein, and always keep you blood sugar and blood pressure at a healthy level!!

As for getting fat by substituting carbs for protein, just remember calories in/calories out. If you want to be really anal about it, you can cut your carb calories back by~10-15% to compensate for the difference in diet induced thermogenesis you get from the equivalent protein intake. And of course, keep your carbs low GI! You're also allowed to increase fat.

 

[BigEasy]

MS, W6, Nandi, BMJ, et al, ad nauseum.............

Thanks for the head splitting discussion and information! I now have a little more room for additional knowledge! Good job to all for a GREAT discussion!

 

[SteelWeaver]

I agree BE - these kinds of threads are the best. I feel REALLLY lucky to have access to the thoughts, opinions, knowledge etc of the above people.

Thanks for the answer, MS. Sorry if this is going off thread track, but what about this: I see the logic in lowering carb cals slightly, but surely increasing fat on a diet that is already high in carbs and low in protein (well, low for your typical bodybuilder), results in exactly the Western-style diet we're all trying to avoid? Except maybe for substituting low GI and mono/poly fats for the sugar and sat. fats.

 

[wilson6]

BG,

The protein issue depends on what state the kidneys are in right now.

If renal function is normal, no evidence of nephropathy in particular microalbuminuria (small amounts of albumin in the urine) and first evidence of bad things to come, then 50 g a day is probably overkill on the low end.

There is no evidence that higher protein diets in people with otherwise normal renal function who are well hydrated and not loading up daily on NSAIDS will have any long-term problems.

Now, if there is early evidence of renal problems, then he has to be careful.

I am currently training an overweight, African American female, Type I diabetic, age 40 and otherwise healthy, on an insulin pump with HbA1c under 8%. Her docs have had her on a high carb, low protein diet and told her not to lift weights because she is more prone to injury.

Well, so far all that advice has done is allowed her to become increasing fatter.

Since she started training with me she has not incurred any injury, has increased her lean mass, decreased bodyfat and reduced her basal insulin requirements twice.

I suggested that she increase her protein to some degree because she has no current renal problems, decrease her carbs, include some monounsaturated oil in her diet and roll with it.

The problem with the high carb diets is that they require insulin and even small amounts of insulin suppress fat oxidation. Since insulin is being pumped in constantly one is always in a carb oxidation, lipogenic state. Makes no sense because the fatter you get, the more insulin resistant you become and all the bad things follow such as hypertension, renal problems, poorer glycemic control that leads to the destruction of many organ systems.

While it is always wise to error on the cautious side in any disease state, often time’s clinicians are overly conservative and it may not always be the best way to go. One has to balance risk vs quality of life issues and make their own decisions to some extent. But, it is also important to monitor renal function, blood pressure and long-term glycemic control closely.

One thing for sure, if I were a Type I diabetic, I'd make glycemic control my number one priority because almost all the problems associated with Type I diabetes are a function of poor glycemic control.

And, there is no better way to reduce insulin requirements and dispose of blood glucose than aggressive exercise and maintenance of lean muscle mass.

W6

 

[Realgains]

So MS you are saying that .8grams per pound of body weight is more than enough for a great positive nitrogen balance and good gains while natural?

Are you then also saying that the use of AAS warrents NO increase in daily protein intake at all and in fact one could drop protein intake from the above and still see great gains?

RG

 

[MS]

Realgains, you and I both know that there is no absolute 'right' answer to what is the optimal amount of protein on or off AAS. My experience with women on moderate or low doses of AAS has proven to my satisfaction that they do not need more protein than my natty clients. I round the average protein intake to 1g per pound, or 2g per kg (close enough). Although this is average, they don't eat this much every day. 3-4 days of lower protein (1g/kg) followed by 3-4 days of higher protein (3g/kg) works extremely well in everyone that's stuck to it. I have never tried this with a male on a gram+ of gear a week, mainly because they are universally scared by the 'mens boards' and magazines they read that they will shrivel away to nothing if they go even one day without masses of protein. This is nonsense, and I believe everyone could make better gains by cycling their protein, carbs AND fats on a regular basis. I have no science to back this up, but I have a plethora of science that shows that the human body adapts very quickly to anything that it chronically ingests, including vitamins, minerals and calories. Once this adaptation takes place you find the body gets sloppy and less efficient at absorption, utilization, and more efficient at elimination etc... of whatever it is chronically exposed to. It's not rocket science.

 

[Realgains]

MS I can agree with much of what you say. I do not think its best to be on a very high preotien diet ALL the time and I have usually dropped my protein intake on non workout days...but not a great deal. I drop my protein intake by quite a bit while "off".

I would think that the human body would be adaptive and metabolize protein more effeciently when lower amounts of protein are consumed as this only stands to reason.

But it is my belief that while on large doses of androgens protein intake needs to be pretty darn high for much of the week and higher than you recommend. Maybe your recommendations would be okay for a female on small doses but for a man on doses over a gram per week I don't think it provides optimal amounts.

Too bad there is no science to back up the anecdotal experiences of myself and other men, but I am sure its around the corner......until then MS. And I always appreciate your input as it get the wheels turning every time. he he he

RG

 

[aurelius]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

amen. As soon as I figured out this little scam I saved a lot on protein shakes.