Re: pct pct pct pct...
slat1 said:
I thought you guys might like this too:
Combating Oestrogens and Progesterone
Oestrogens and progesterone are two hormones responsible for female characteristics. They can be produced as a side effect of anabolic steroid use when they convert (aromatise) into these hormones. Both are responsible for some of the side effects of steroid use, eg gyno (gynecomastia - female breast tissue development in males, aka 'bitch tits'), female body fat deposition, water retention, etc.
Anti-oestrogens are compounds which act to reduce oestrogenic activity in the body. This is achieved in one of two ways, and there are different drugs which fall into these categories.
Anti-Oestrogens
Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
Competitive aromatase inhibitors bind to the same site on the enzyme aromatase as testosterone does. This allows less testosterone to bind to aromatase, which in turn means less is converted to oestradiol (the primary type of oestrogen). An important point to note is that the amount of inhibitor required rises with increasing steroid dose i.e. higher doses of Arimidex or Proviron are required to prevent the aromatisation of 1000mg/week of testosterone than 500mgs/week.
Arimidex (Anastrozole)
Arimidex is the perfect choice for when using high doses of aromatising steroids, or indeed even for moderate doses if the individual is prone to gyno. It is thought that it may be possible to lower oestrogen levels too much with Arimidex and for this reason blood tests are recommended to determine whether the dosing schedule is correct for maximum results, as it is theorised that some oestrogen presence is required to keep the androgen receptors 'open'. Arimidex has excellent binding qualities at the receptor and therefore only low doses are required. The main downside is its price; it is very expensive (see article 'The Price of Gear')
Dosing
Arimidex is supplied in 1mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 0.25 - 1mg/day. In most cases 0.5mg/day is sufficient.
Proviron (Mesterolone)
Proviron is an anabolic steroid with little direct anabolic properties. It has good binding qualities with the androgen receptor, but most never reaches the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, as it is enzymatically converted to diol. It is however effective as an anti-aromatase, and is believed to also act in an anti-oestrogenic manner due to certain oestrogen receptor down-regulation, making it a very effective compound for preventing gyno. Proviron also helps restore sexual dysfunctions caused by steroid cycling, helping to increase sexual desire as a result of the increased androgen levels, a downside can be permanent erections in some males which at first may sound fantastic but can be extremely painful, in which case the dose should be lowered or discontinued. Proviron will also help reduce excess bloating caused by water retention.
Proviron can be used effectively throughout clomid therapy as it displays no signs of inhibiting the HPTA (see article 'Clomid and HCG'), and is helpful in keeping androgen levels elevated until natural testosterone production is restored correctly. The androgenic activity is also responsible for the distinct hardening of muscles and is one reason it is often favoured leading up to competitions.
Dosing
Proviron is supplied in 25mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 25 to 100mg/day, in most cases 25 to 50mg/day is sufficient. Dose is best split am and pm.
Oestrogen receptor antagonists
Oestrogen receptor antagonists are weak oestrogens which bind strongly to a hormone receptor, but do not activate the receptor and make it unresponsive to the stronger oestrogenic hormones present due to the aromatisation of steroids.
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate)
Nolvadex is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with potent anti-estrogenic properties. Its clinical use is primarily in chemotherapy for cancer patients. It is very useful and successful in combination with a steroid regimen at reducing water retention and preventing gyno. Nolvadex is probably the most commonly used anti-oestrogen mainly due to its mostly positive effects, availability and low price. Controversy surrounds the fact that it anecdotally appears to reduce gains made on a cycle, mostly due to reduced water retention, but most users agree that losses, if any, are minimal and its always difficult to say what gains may have been made in its absence.
Dosing
An effective dose seems to be 10 to 20mg/day.
At first signs of a possible gyno, take 20mg/day until symptoms subside, then 10mg/day until completion of cycle and post-cycle Clomid therapy.
Clomid (Clomifen)
Like Nolvadex, Clomid is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with anti-oestrogenic properties. The two compounds are structurally similar and their mechanism of action is also similar. The general consensus though, is that Clomid is best left as a post-cycle natural testosterone recovery product and a more appropriate anti-oestrogen found, as Clomid does not seem to be as effective in this role.
Progestins
The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-oestrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.
Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires oestrogen presence to activate it in the first place.
Use with non-aromatising steroids
If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development. A simple stack of Anadrol and Primobolan will go along way to packing on some serious mass without the worry of developing gyno.
Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
If aromatising steroids are to be included in the stack with progestagenic steroids, then the concurrent use of Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors, like Arimidex or Proviron, would also seem a sensible option. These can be incorporated to keep oestrogen levels low and avoid the activation of the progesterone. Although they will not help with already developed progesterone induced gyno, they can certainly be employed to avoid its development. As usual, the amount of aromatase inhibitor required increases with increasing dose of aromatising steroids used, but the best dose is still the minimum amount that can be got away with to produce the desired effect.
Winstrol
The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.
One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca, as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning.
All of the above mentioned compounds can be used effectively as part of steroid cycles, but careful consideration should be given to selecting the correct compound/s for the duty required.
Please read the following exerpt from, Bottom Line Bodybuilding. It may shed some light on the crap that gets spewed like yesterdays protein shake. Most of the garbage on these boards is just regurgitated info that someone heard from someone else. This excerpt really hit home with me as I can (from personal experience) attest to the accuracy of the following text.... Just trying to enlighten....
There are several major problems associated with Clomid, as well as Arimidex,
Nolvadex, Teslac or any other estrogen blocker. For one thing, all these compounds are
indiscriminate in how much estrogen they block. So what's bad about that? Well, the
whole point of using an anti-estrogen is to protect against the spillover of estrogen that
comes with the excessive use of androgens. If the body can't metabolize all that
testosterone, it aromatizes into estrogens. What the experts fail to address is the fact that
the amount of aromatization varies greatly from individual to individual. If the steroid
dosages are moderate, there might not be any aromatization of any consequence, and the
anti-estrogens may lower levels below what they were normally! And keep one very
important fact in mind. A little estrogen in men is necessary for a healthy libido. (It's
also necessary for other things such as bone density, skin tone, etc., but I can't think of
anything more important to most men than their dicks.)
More recently, it's even been suggested that estrogen may play a role in the proliferation
of androgen receptors. This may explain why some experienced steroid users claim that
they get decreased results when adding an anti-estrogen to their stack. It was once
thought that anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex decreased IGF-1, but this has not been
validated with any concrete evidence. Nevertheless, studies done on rats found that
androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of
estradiol, increasing the anabolic potency of the androgenic steroid. If nothing else, this
shows that estrogen is, on some level, directly or indirectly involved in the process of
promoting muscle growth. There's also the added element of strength and size gains due
to the water retention that estrogen inflicts. And just as a kicker, anti- estrogens may also
increase sex hormone binding globulin which is the last thing you want when coming off
a cycle.
In the case of Clomid, the effects may be even worse than other anti-estrogens since
Clomid is a mild estrogen itself. The basic theory behind its use (which is sounding more
and more stupid every day) is essentially that the Clomid will occupy the estrogen
receptor sites thus disallowing the formation of more estrogen. Maybe. What's more
likely in cases where estrogen levels are normal, the Clomid will simply add more
estrogen. This may the reason for some people's apparent aversion to Clomid and its
estrogen-like side effects.
Even if Clomid did lower estrogen, there's no evidence that lower estrogen will
necessarily lead to increased testosterone, yet this is the premise which everyone follows.
Clomid has also been known to produce a decrease in the LH response to LH releasing
hormone. This is something that has been known for a while, (findings on this date as far
back as 1978) yet curiously ignored. Naturally, studies aren't conducted to benefit the
bodybuilder on steroids, so we must learn to read between the line sometimes. In doing
so, conclusions can be drawn. All too often steroid gurus draw them incorrectly.
The notion of increased sperm count is also one of contention. Allow me to get technical
for a moment and break my own rule about references for a second while I cite this
quote from a study done on Clomid.
"Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant
increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in
sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal
FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an
inhibitory effect."
What this suggests in plain English is that not everyone reacts to Clomid treatment in the
same way and sperm levels must be abnormally suppressed for the drug to be of any
benefit. And even in situations where that is the case, the side effect was lowered Follicle
Stimulating Hormone, which as you may know, controls the amount of Leutinizing
Hormone we release which in turn regulates how much testosterone we have. This is why
so many bodybuilders claim to crash after coming off of the Clomid.
Judging from this information it's clear that Clomid, at best, is a crap shoot and its
benefits, if any, are temporary. So why is everyone still taking it?
Of course, this is hypothesis on my part and a lot of the pedants and pundits will refuse to
acknowledge it. After all, all the pros use Clomid. Why should anyone listen to me?
They don't have to, but they should.
I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this very subject. I should mention, Jerry, unlike
some of the self-appointed experts that abound on the internet and the world of
underground newsletters, is one of the most knowledgeable people in the business on the
subject of nutrition and pharmacology. He's been writing on the subject before most of
these pseudo whiz kids were born. He knows everybody who is anybody in the world of
bodybuilding. When I mentioned my theories about Clomid he said to me;
"You're not alone. I don't know a single pro who still uses Clomid."
This in itself speaks volumes. Of course, it may not be the best validation for my
argument since there are plenty of pro bodybuilders who are complete jackasses when it
comes to knowledge and application of anabolics. He or she usually hires someone who
knows something, or more likely, can get something. The protocol is then to load the
syringe to the top and keep shooting until the stash is gone. Nevertheless, the fact that
Clomid has lost its allure among the higher echelon on the bodybuilding ranks is a sure
sign it isn't working well. If it did, they'd all use it, even if they stayed on 365 days a
year. Who wouldn't want to maintain testicular size and increase natural production while
keeping estrogen low? If Clomid was effective in doing so, there'd be no reason to stop.
They know what works and what doesn't. And they know that Clomid sucks. (Of course,
there's always some lunkhead who doesn't catch on right away.
One last thing to keep in mind: Back in the 60's and early 70's no one used antiestrogens.
Look at the pictures of the stars of that time and you'd be hard pressed to find a
case of gyno anywhere. Food for thought.
The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked
well, which it doesn't.
Forget Clomid. For more effective methods of keeping excess estrogen in check, read on.
IF YOU MUST...
When it comes to anti-estrogens, the best bet may be not in occupying the receptor sites,
as does Clomid, but to compete with the testosterone/estrogen balance. At one time,
Proviron was deemed a valid choice as an anti-estrogen agent until some of the
sophomoric steroid students argued that it didn't have any direct anti-estrogenic
properties. True, but it still looks as if it's the best choice if you feel the need to guard
against estrogen build up. It does so because DHT acts as a gyno antagonist. (Yet
another thing that has been oddly overlooked.) Even when DHT is applied topically it's
been shown to reduce gyno in cases where the gyno hadn't been a chronic condition.
Beyond the direct effect of DHT, Proviron has distinct benefits, the first being that as a
derivative of DHT it isn't capable of forming estrogen, yet it has a much higher affinity
for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than does
testosterone. That means administering it with another aromatizable compound will
prevent estrogen build up due to the fact that DHT binds to the aromatase enzyme so
strongly. There's also been some suggestion that Proviron may downgrade the actual
estrogen receptor, thereby making it twice as effective at reducing circulating estrogen
levels. And because DHT has such a high affinity for SHBG it leaves more free
testosterone to impart its anabolic effects.
It makes sense that the use of Proviron is a more practical and rational method of dealing
with the possibility of excess estrogen than the aforementioned method of attempting to
add a weaker estrogen in the hopes that it will prevent aromatization.
William Llewellyn touches upon this in Anabolics 2000. He says...
"(Proviron) is in contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks estrogen's ability to bind and
activate receptors in certain tissues." (such as breast tissue)
In other words, the World Anabolic Reference was right when it stated;
"Proviron cures the problem of aromatization at the root while Nolvadex simply cures the
symptoms. "
Proviron in moderate doses has been shown to be remarkably safe and free of side effects
in most men. If you must use an anti-estrogen, Proviron is the way go.
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but anyway I have read this post and it is extremely informative but I must admit I am still rather confused as to my actual situation and what constitutes a proper PCT for me at this point since my circumstances are not exactly the norm...
