Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

[b fold the truth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

Theres no need for insults and put downs Bfold. The notion of keeping the bar close to the shins at the beginning is not "MY" technique. I learned it from Dragomir Cioroslan who has forgotten more about lifting weights than both of us put together will ever know.

Insults???

Without any knowledge of MY injury you were/are quick to assume that it was my form when doing pulls that caused my injury.

You still have not addressed a single issue that I brough up...NONE.

Setting the bar away from my shins is not MY patented technique either...www.elitefitnesssystems.com
http://www.testosterone.net/articles/194dead.html
"Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back

The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.

Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward.

For some lifters, not being able to pull back can be a muscular thing. If you're like myself, I tend to end up with the weight on the front of my feet instead of my heels. This is a function of my quads trying to overpower the glutes and hamstrings, or the glutes and hamstrings not being able to finish the weight and shifting to the quads to complete the lift. What will happen many times is you'll begin shaking or miss the weight. To fix this problem you need to add in more glute ham raises, pull-throughs and reverse hypers. "

"Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar

I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.

If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you. So what I believe happens is many lifters look to those who have great deadlifts to see how they pull, then try to do the same themselves. What they need to do is look to those who are built the same way they are and have great deadlifts and follow their lead."

"Mistake #8: Not keeping your shoulders behind the bar

You've already read this a few times in this article and it's perhaps the most important thing next to hip position in the execution of the deadlift. Your shoulders must start and stay behind the barbell when you pull deadlifts! This will keep the barbell traveling in the right direction and keep your weight going backward. The deadlift isn't an Olympic lift and shouldn't be started like one.

I did a seminar with Dr. Mel Siff at one of his Supertraining camps (one of the best investments you can ever make!) and we showed the difference between the two positions. For the Olympic lifts you want the shoulders in front of the bar; for the deadlift you want them behind the bar. Period. The amount of misinformation out there about this is incredible."

"Mistake #10: Starting with the hips too low

This is the king of all mistakes I see. Too many times lifters try to squat the weight up rather than pull the weight. Think back to the number of times you've seen a big deadlift and thought to yourself how much more the lifter could've pulled if he didn't damn near stiff-leg it. I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.

All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be.

Once again, next time you see a great deadlifter, stand off to the side and watch how close his or her hips stay to the bar throughout the pull. If you're putting your ass to the floor before you pull, your hips are about a mile from the bar. You're setting yourself up for disaster when the lever arm is this long. This is also the second reason why lifters can't get the bar off the floor. (The first reason is very simple: The bar is too heavy!)

You need to find the perfect spot where your hips are close to the bar, your shoulders are behind the bar, your lower back is arched, your upper back rounded, your belly full of air, and you can pull toward your body. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but then again, what is? (Definitely not training in a commercial health club….)"

B True

 

[WalkingBeast]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

Insults???

Without any knowledge of MY injury you were/are quick to assume that it was my form when doing pulls that caused my injury.

You still have not addressed a single issue that I brough up...NONE.

Setting the bar away from my shins is not MY patented technique either...www.elitefitnesssystems.com
http://www.testosterone.net/articles/194dead.html
"Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back

The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.

Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward.

For some lifters, not being able to pull back can be a muscular thing. If you're like myself, I tend to end up with the weight on the front of my feet instead of my heels. This is a function of my quads trying to overpower the glutes and hamstrings, or the glutes and hamstrings not being able to finish the weight and shifting to the quads to complete the lift. What will happen many times is you'll begin shaking or miss the weight. To fix this problem you need to add in more glute ham raises, pull-throughs and reverse hypers. "

"Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar

I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.

If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you. So what I believe happens is many lifters look to those who have great deadlifts to see how they pull, then try to do the same themselves. What they need to do is look to those who are built the same way they are and have great deadlifts and follow their lead."

"Mistake #8: Not keeping your shoulders behind the bar

You've already read this a few times in this article and it's perhaps the most important thing next to hip position in the execution of the deadlift. Your shoulders must start and stay behind the barbell when you pull deadlifts! This will keep the barbell traveling in the right direction and keep your weight going backward. The deadlift isn't an Olympic lift and shouldn't be started like one.

I did a seminar with Dr. Mel Siff at one of his Supertraining camps (one of the best investments you can ever make!) and we showed the difference between the two positions. For the Olympic lifts you want the shoulders in front of the bar; for the deadlift you want them behind the bar. Period. The amount of misinformation out there about this is incredible."

"Mistake #10: Starting with the hips too low

This is the king of all mistakes I see. Too many times lifters try to squat the weight up rather than pull the weight. Think back to the number of times you've seen a big deadlift and thought to yourself how much more the lifter could've pulled if he didn't damn near stiff-leg it. I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.

All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be.

Once again, next time you see a great deadlifter, stand off to the side and watch how close his or her hips stay to the bar throughout the pull. If you're putting your ass to the floor before you pull, your hips are about a mile from the bar. You're setting yourself up for disaster when the lever arm is this long. This is also the second reason why lifters can't get the bar off the floor. (The first reason is very simple: The bar is too heavy!)

You need to find the perfect spot where your hips are close to the bar, your shoulders are behind the bar, your lower back is arched, your upper back rounded, your belly full of air, and you can pull toward your body. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but then again, what is? (Definitely not training in a commercial health club….)"

B True

Much better then I couldve said it. Ive only been deadlifting consistently for a little over a year, so Im no expert. I completely agree with everything B-fold said though. If your pulling to close to your shins, how is the path a straight line anymore? What about your knees? Thats the same problem I had when I first started deadlifting. Thinking the bar had to scrape the shins the entire way. Ive found that If I can keep the bar slightly ahead of my knees, I dont have to pull around them. I used to fail many lifts because of this. The bar rarely even touches my shins now. I think there is alot more to it then the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" theory. I also agree with what was said about pulling back to utilize some of the stronger back muscles. I dont think a complete straight line is optimal. JMO

 

[b fold the truth]

B fold I understand your aggravation but I think you're being a little hard on him, he wasn't trying to disrespect you IMO, only critiquing your form. Whether he's right or not is another matter--attack his arguments, not him.

I would like to know more about the issue. I'm curious, putting everything about injury aside, why does having the bar forward a few inches enable you to lift more weight? Powerlifters always seem to strive for the shortest range of motion, and this doesn't seem as though it would be.

Also, back to the injury matter, do you know what caused the hamstring tear? Do you have a video that we could see? Have you ever felt *any* pain in your hamstring(s) prior to this? Even if it were minor and not excrucating?

I took it as being VERY disrespectful. He attacked my form, I came back with a post stating that I used HIS form when my hamstring tore...so he could NOT say that it was because I sat the bar out in front of my body that it was torn. His comment about 'all humor aside' while discussing my injury...was a pretty big insult.

As far as bar placement...read the post I made before.

I do not know what caused the muscle tear. Freak accident from what I can tell. I have it on video tape but refuse to watch it. I may have taped over it already. I have never had any pain in my hamstrings before...NOTHING like that anyway. Nothing ever in that area or any bad pains in my hamstrings...ever.

B True

 

[bignate73]

again biomechanics is what youre missing.....

exactly!

thats the point of bar travel deviating from the "straight line". think of it like you have a group of people lifting the bar, if at certain points in the motion a couple of people let go, because they choose not to be active or strong at that point, wouldnt it make sense to have the bar move where you can have all of those people working the whole time? this is what happens with muscle groups on compound movements.

yes it would be assumed that the body would move into an better position and allow the bar to continue on its prescribed straight path, but that may not always be the case due to structural differences in each lifter and variances in momentum. it may be actually more work to keep the body adjusting around in order to keep the bar moving upwards.

this analogy works perfectly with the bench press argument, and i suspect will work well with the OLY lift and deadlift.

 

[bignate73]

Freak accident from what I can tell. B True

thats my guess. too many variables (flexibility, warmed up enough, etc.) to blame something as slight as an inch or 2 starting point on a lift.

 

[anabolicmd]

exactly!

thats the point of bar travel deviating from the "straight line". think of it like you have a group of people lifting the bar, if at certain points in the motion a couple of people let go, because they choose not to be active or strong at that point, wouldnt it make sense to have the bar move where you can have all of those people working the whole time? this is what happens with muscle groups on compound movements.

yes it would be assumed that the body would move into an better position and allow the bar to continue on its prescribed straight path, but that may not always be the case due to structural differences in each lifter and variances in momentum. it may be actually more work to keep the body adjusting around in order to keep the bar moving upwards.

this analogy works perfectly with the bench press argument, and i suspect will work well with the OLY lift and deadlift.

Sorry Nate, its funny you bring that up, because Walkingbeast and I just hashed that out on pms. This is what I came up with: the ideal position is to have the bar as close to the spot right under your center of gravity. That is the straightest and shortest line. You are 1000% correct, our legs occupy most of that ideal spot, lol. So while it is absolutely true that the lifters own body presents an obstacle to pulling along the perfect path, one should nonetheless always try to go to the absolute maximum closest point to that perfect line that he or she can.

 

[anabolicmd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

Much better then I couldve said it. Ive only been deadlifting consistently for a little over a year, so Im no expert. I completely agree with everything B-fold said though. If your pulling to close to your shins, how is the path a straight line anymore? What about your knees? Thats the same problem I had when I first started deadlifting. Thinking the bar had to scrape the shins the entire way. Ive found that If I can keep the bar slightly ahead of my knees, I dont have to pull around them. I used to fail many lifts because of this. The bar rarely even touches my shins now. I think there is alot more to it then the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" theory. I also agree with what was said about pulling back to utilize some of the stronger back muscles. I dont think a complete straight line is optimal. JMO

I see why you feel that way, and it does make sense, I am not disagreeing with you at all. But how far from the shins are we talking? Half an inch, or three and a half inches? Because its about getting as close to the ideal line as your body will allow you. Thats what I am talking about. If you have to carry the bar a little bit farther out enough to clear your knees, of course you have to do it. You know from personal experience that when you get closer to the perfect line (while performing the Walkingbeast deadlift variation from behind your legs) you lift more weight. And thats all Im saying, keep the bar's line of travel as short as possible for maximum energy efficiency and maximum lifts.

 

[anabolicmd]

B fold I understand your aggravation but I think you're being a little hard on him, he wasn't trying to disrespect you IMO, only critiquing your form. Whether he's right or not is another matter--attack his arguments, not him.

I would like to know more about the issue. I'm curious, putting everything about injury aside, why does having the bar forward a few inches enable you to lift more weight? Powerlifters always seem to strive for the shortest range of motion, and this doesn't seem as though it would be.

Thank you debaser, and with that I think I have said my peace. I hope this discussion was helpful at least in getting people actively thinking about a very serious issue. As we get stronger, and start moving heavier and heavier weights, the need for proper technique rises exponentially. Best wishes to all in the New Year, may it be a P.R. year for everyone!

 

[WalkingBeast]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

I see why you feel that way, and it does make sense, I am not disagreeing with you at all. But how far from the shins are we talking? Half an inch, or three and a half inches? Because its about getting as close to the ideal line as your body will allow you. Thats what I am talking about. If you have to carry the bar a little bit farther out enough to clear your knees, of course you have to do it. You know from personal experience that when you get closer to the perfect line (while performing the Walkingbeast deadlift variation from behind your legs) you lift more weight. And thats all Im saying, keep the bar's line of travel as short as possible for maximum energy efficiency and maximum lifts.

Good points. Were pretty much in agreement. Maybe there are some cases where 3.5 inches could be beneficial for a lifter? Really I only know whats worked for me, and of what Ive heard others say has worked for them. Its always very difficult to find that optimum posistion. Has any of us really found it? Yes, I believe thats why Im so much stronger with the beast lift, no body parts in the way. More of a straight line. Of course with regular deadlifts it becomes more of a problem. Have never tried sumo style, so maybe that fixes the problem? Not sure, since it feels so awkward to me.

 

[coolcolj]

Well I prefer to do my olys with the bar over the balls of my feet.

I have found that if the bar starts too close to the shins, it will swing out and then back - off course this depends on the person, and this is the worst case of all the options.

The knees straighten at a certain rate, so basicly the bar will be flush with the knee at the start of the 2nd pull, shins vertically straight, so if you lower the bar directly down from that point, you will see that bar will end up 2-3 inches away from the shins when the bar is on the floor since you do have to bend the knee to get into the start position.