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bren565
New member
iv loved your posts, but i really dont know who to believe on this, one i just want the most effective form for pct nelson.
and ppl are always sayin hcg DURING cycle?
i dont get whats wrong with this....
clomid or nolva/pct regimen
- Thread starter bren565
- Start date
iv loved your posts, but i really dont know who to believe on this, one i just want the most effective form for pct nelson.
and ppl are always sayin hcg DURING cycle?
i dont get whats wrong with this....
tical
Banned
I was getting to it, this particular excerpt has nothing to do with HCG.
The CESSATION of LH/FSH production is what everyone around here refers to as being shutdown. Are you really arguing semantics here?
So you suggest just letting the testicles atrophy and preventing downstream metabolic reactions (production of dhea for example) while on cycle because leydig cells will be more "sensitive" when PCT comes around?
250iu 2 or 3 times a week will not desensitize your testicles. There are tons of HRT doctors that prescribe HCG for their patients at this very dose for this very reason.
Correct. The testicles do more than just produce testosterone which is why they SHOULD be stimulated while ON cycle.
When you're on a cycle, you aren't trying to restore or maintain HPTA function / balance. You're slamming your body with 10, 20, 30x the amount of hormones.
So what is the point of HCG? What natural methods? I'm not going to get into board politics here but anyone with half a brain knows why you guys are in every thread pushing all of that "natural" shit.
Please enlighten us with the proper usage of HCG as a PCT.
Woah, there's a search function here.
Thread post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...-pct-duration-quest-724387-2.html#post9760147
---
Int J Impot Res. 2003 Jun;15(3):156-65.
Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?
Excerpt:
Significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients
---
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Dec;80(12):3546-52.
Effect of raising endogenous testosterone levels in impotent men with secondary hypogonadism: double blind placebo-controlled trial with Clomiphene citrate.
Excerpt:
Similar to our previous observations, LH, FSH, and total and free testosterone levels showed a significant elevation in response to Clomiphene citrate over the response to placebo
I've been doing it for 5 years. So you've got 25 years on me. You could have 100 years on me and it wouldn't matter. The biochemistry of man hasn't changed in quite a while.
I was talking about people that aren't using AAS. There are people out there that "cycle" with clomid alone.
Clomid doesn't increase estrogen by itself. Any increase in estrogen would be via the aromatization of the TESTOSTERONE that clomid is responsible for.
Do you even know how a SERM works? Even if clomid increased estrogen, the presence of clomid will prevent receptors from recognizing this increase of estrogen, continuously promoting the release of LH and the increase of endogenous testosterone.
I don't know where you came to the conclusion that I negated my own post. Maybe you misunderstood the different points I was speaking on.
To say I'm out of my league because you've got 30 years in the "game" is hardly an argument. If you think peer reviewed medical journals / studies are in the same class as "internet gurus" then I'm at a loss for words.
I've illustrated chain reactions, biochemistry, and physiology in my posts. All you've done is chime in banging on your chest basically saying "I know the facts because I'm old school" with absolutely ZERO evidence backing up a thing you say.
tical
Banned
Good luck bro. Hope you find what you're looking for.
bren565
New member
thank you..
and i dont push stuff on here for money.....
but id prefer if u didnt get into a verbal tussle with nelson,
discrediting the guy who has made amazing posts in the past isnt right.
appreciate your advice regardless.
tical
Banned
Nelson and I can agree to disagree. I've got no hard feelings against him, we just have different beliefs regarding this topic.
needtogetaas
New member
I will come back to this thread today... Looks like a good topic. Will have some fun.
.....
bren565
New member
thanks boss.
I read your clomid + nolva thread a while back (not me but it was made a while back...)
and this was my kind of... i guess sequel? i wanted to actually get some answers but now i guess it was hijacked ... and turned into the original one written by u and nelson! lmao just a bunch of bros argueing but i really want this put to bed... please...
does nolva or clomid WORK!
LMAO i mean.. which is better and if they both suck cock, then someone tell me soo.. these things arent free, and this is our health at stake. you have to admit so many bros disagree on this.... iv read the forums its beyond confusing sir.
ps:
(how you feeling?) + looking forward to your response.
i absolutely LOVE nolva but hate Clomid. you see everyone has a different opinion and nobody is necessarily wrong. I have successfully recovered from 2 deca cycles thanks to HCG/HMG/nolva. recent being 3 months after deca esthers were out of my body which is DAMN GOOD as far as I'm concerned. i have found what works FOR ME. but what works for me might not work for you.
my advice is try a PCT. run blood tests. you figure out what works for you best.
most guys on here it seems like do not even cycle steroids anymore. they just blast and cruise or are on TRT. i think 90% of them have no business on TRT, but hey thats my opinion. keep your cycles SHORT and stay off for time on X 2, consider even running only 1 cycle per year... and you shouldn't have any problem with a decent PCT. again my opinion. run a long cycle, and cycle off half the time, then jump on another long cycle and then get thrown on TRT so fast it makes your head spin. happens all the time. its tempting to want to run your next cycle 2 weeks after you finished your last, cant do that bro. gotta be SMART
Suddenly I can't log into my original account, change or receive my password. Pretty shady response to an otherwise worthy debate.
Let's continue,
Clomid is NOT an estrogen. It is structurally SIMILAR to estrogen and can ACT like an estrogen by modulating the estrogen receptor, but it is NOT an estrogen. It's like comparing a quarter to a slug. They are similar and will fit in the same slots, but will not always elicit the same response. The fact that you can't seem to comprehend all of this as more than just black and white makes you look pretty ignorant.
I'm not disagreeing that clomid can have nasty sides and ACT like an estrogen when you're taking it. This is totally true. But real estrogen, the stuff that your hypothalamus can recognize and respond to by lowering GnRH, is blocked due to the over-saturation of clomid in the blood. Even if / when clomid is acting like estrogen, your brain cannot recognize it as estrogen.
Once you back off of clomid, the real estrogen in your body can begin binding to receptors instead and all of the sides from the clomid will subside.
As for the medical studies you commented on. The length of one study was 4 months (2 months on placebo and 2 months on clomid). No where does it say that it took 4 months for clomid to increase LH/T. Also, the first study was to see if clomid could be used to raise T in order to improve sexual function. The only significant portions (as they relate to this debate) of both of these studies are the facts that clomid did indeed raise LH and T. Yes, sexual function is always desired but that isn't necessarily the purpose of PCT. This might not sound appealing, but the reality is that you can enjoy sexual function when you're done - who knows, maybe even some of those products you guys push can assist in this respect through some other mechanisms.
Sucks that my account got "disabled." I've shared a lot with the EF community with only the best intentions. Even very personal things about safety and legal issues (my federal bust for example). Very unfortunate.
Let's continue,
Clomid is NOT an estrogen. It is structurally SIMILAR to estrogen and can ACT like an estrogen by modulating the estrogen receptor, but it is NOT an estrogen. It's like comparing a quarter to a slug. They are similar and will fit in the same slots, but will not always elicit the same response. The fact that you can't seem to comprehend all of this as more than just black and white makes you look pretty ignorant.
I'm not disagreeing that clomid can have nasty sides and ACT like an estrogen when you're taking it. This is totally true. But real estrogen, the stuff that your hypothalamus can recognize and respond to by lowering GnRH, is blocked due to the over-saturation of clomid in the blood. Even if / when clomid is acting like estrogen, your brain cannot recognize it as estrogen.
Once you back off of clomid, the real estrogen in your body can begin binding to receptors instead and all of the sides from the clomid will subside.
As for the medical studies you commented on. The length of one study was 4 months (2 months on placebo and 2 months on clomid). No where does it say that it took 4 months for clomid to increase LH/T. Also, the first study was to see if clomid could be used to raise T in order to improve sexual function. The only significant portions (as they relate to this debate) of both of these studies are the facts that clomid did indeed raise LH and T. Yes, sexual function is always desired but that isn't necessarily the purpose of PCT. This might not sound appealing, but the reality is that you can enjoy sexual function when you're done - who knows, maybe even some of those products you guys push can assist in this respect through some other mechanisms.
Sucks that my account got "disabled." I've shared a lot with the EF community with only the best intentions. Even very personal things about safety and legal issues (my federal bust for example). Very unfortunate.
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