clomid or nolva/pct regimen

[Nelson Montana]

Suddenly I can't log into my original account, change or receive my password. Pretty shady response to an otherwise worthy debate.

Let's continue,

Clomid is NOT an estrogen. It is structurally SIMILAR to estrogen and can ACT like an estrogen by modulating the estrogen receptor, but it is NOT an estrogen. It's like comparing a quarter to a slug. They are similar and will fit in the same slots, but will not always elicit the same response. The fact that you can't seem to comprehend all of this as more than just black and white makes you look pretty ignorant.

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WELL, YOU START CALLING PEOPLE IGNORANT AND THERE GOES THE WHOLE "WORTHY DEBATE." CLOMID WILL PRODUCE ESTROGEN-LIKE SYMPTOMS. SURELY YOU KNOW THIS.


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I'm not disagreeing that clomid can have nasty sides and ACT like an estrogen when you're taking it. This is totally true. But real estrogen, the stuff that your hypothalamus can recognize and respond to by lowering GnRH, is blocked due to the over-saturation of clomid in the blood. Even if / when clomid is acting like estrogen, your brain cannot recognize it as estrogen.

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BUT IT DOES. ASK ANYONE WHO GOT MOODY, DEPRESSED, HAD HEADACHES OR LOSS OF LIBIDO.

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Once you back off of clomid, the real estrogen in your body can begin binding to receptors instead and all of the sides from the clomid will subside.

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AND TESTOSTERONE DROPS BACK DOWN. THAT'S THE CATCH 22.


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As for the medical studies you commented on. The length of one study was 4 months (2 months on placebo and 2 months on clomid). No where does it say that it took 4 months for clomid to increase LH/T. Also, the first study was to see if clomid could be used to raise T in order to improve sexual function. The only significant portions (as they relate to this debate) of both of these studies are the facts that clomid did indeed raise LH and T.

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AND IT RAISES ESTROGEN. AND SOMETIMES A RISE IN ESTROGEN IMPROVES LIBIDO. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO DICY.


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Yes, sexual function is always desired but that isn't necessarily the purpose of PCT. This might not sound appealing, but the reality is that you can enjoy sexual function when you're done - who knows, maybe even some of those products you guys push can assist in this respect through some other mechanisms.

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THEY DO. AND SEXUAL FUNCTION IS RELATED TO TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION.

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Sucks that my account got "disabled." I've shared a lot with the EF community with only the best intentions. Even very personal things about safety and legal issues (my federal bust for example). Very unfortunate.


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I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. I'M ALL FOR DEBATE. BUT WHEN YOU STRAT TELLING SENIOR MEMBERS THEY'RE WRONG AND THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO COMPROMISE MEMBERS HEALTH WITH INFERIOR PRODUCTS IN ORDER TO MAKE A BUCK AND INSISTING YOU'RE CORRECT AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS IGNORANT, YOU MAY HAVE BROKEN A FORUM RULE OR TWO.

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[cgar1228]

Suddenly I can't log into my original account, change or receive my password. Pretty shady response to an otherwise worthy debate.

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Sucks that my account got "disabled." I've shared a lot with the EF community with only the best intentions. Even very personal things about safety and legal issues (my federal bust for example). Very unfortunate.

Tical has been very helpful and respectful of all members and their issues. This is a healthy intellectual debate and nothing more. To be fair Nelson, he never used the phrase inferior products, and didn't use the term "ignorant" until his account was disabled which would piss off anyone. Please forgive and reinstate this member.

Respectfully,
cgar

 

[tical2]

WELL, YOU START CALLING PEOPLE IGNORANT AND THERE GOES THE WHOLE "WORTHY DEBATE." Clomid WILL PRODUCE ESTROGEN-LIKE SYMPTOMS. SURELY YOU KNOW THIS.

Yet calling me out of my league because you're an old timer is just fine?

BUT IT DOES. ASK ANYONE WHO GOT MOODY, DEPRESSED, HAD HEADACHES OR LOSS OF LIBIDO.

I said I agree with you on this point.

AND testosterone DROPS BACK DOWN. THAT'S THE CATCH 22.

Yes, testosterone will drop down SOME. However, at this point you have already "jumpstarted" your HPTA. That is the point of using SERMs for PCT - not to keep testosterone high, but to get pituitary stimulation back up once more.

If you just stopped taking steroids and did nothing for PCT, your HPTA will return to an equilibrium but this could take a VERY long time.

The whole point of PCT is to jumpstart this process. You already know this.

THEY DO. AND SEXUAL FUNCTION IS RELATED TO testosterone PRODUCTION.

Not just testosterone production but other things like estrogen, shbg, neurological function, psychology, prolactin, cortisol, etc.

To think high test = high sex drive is oversimplifying.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. I'M ALL FOR DEBATE. BUT WHEN YOU STRAT TELLING SENIOR MEMBERS THEY'RE WRONG AND THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO COMPROMISE MEMBERS HEALTH WITH INFERIOR PRODUCTS IN ORDER TO MAKE A BUCK AND INSISTING YOU'RE CORRECT AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS IGNORANT, YOU MAY HAVE BROKEN A FORUM RULE OR TWO.

I never said everyone/anyone that disagrees with me is ignorant - just you. This wouldn't be true if you actually did more than just say "this works that doesn't" then I wouldn't be saying it.

The products you guys are pushing might very well be excellent products. But, what about the threads where people said the use of your products alone for PCT have failed them? Are they just bashing your products as well? Do they get a ban as well?

At least I have the balls to speak up, ask questions, and state the obvious.

I've never once said your products are inferior, you've come to that conclusion by yourself.

My entire point in every thread I've posted in is that SERM therapy does exactly what it is supposed to do, prevent the brain from recognizing estrogen and increase hormone production. Period. That is the entire reason these drugs were developed.

The same can most likely be achieved with something like Aromasin (eliminating estrogen), and MAYBE EVEN YOUR PRODUCTS.

Do you think it's reasonable to expect people to just put their trust into a "senior member" just because they say these products are good - yet ditch other options (SERM therapy) proven by medical science and studies done by full blown medical doctors / endocrine specialists? C'mon now.

Grow some thicker skin. If you've got a good product that you actually believe in, stand by it. Prove me wrong. Show us some studies, show us some labwork. Don't just screw with my account to shut me up, it doesn't prove anything. If anything it raises more questions.



I'll take the high road here and apologize if I offended you (or any other senior members) regarding my thoughts on SERM therapy for PCT or inadvertently making you feel as if I was calling your products inferior.

I hope you can see where I am coming from however, as a researcher, user, and natural skeptic. Blind faith is hard to have, especially when it relates to ones health.

 

[bren565]

i absolutely LOVE nolva but hate Clomid. you see everyone has a different opinion and nobody is necessarily wrong. I have successfully recovered from 2 deca cycles thanks to HCG/HMG/nolva. recent being 3 months after deca esthers were out of my body which is DAMN GOOD as far as I'm concerned. i have found what works FOR ME. but what works for me might not work for you.

my advice is try a PCT. run blood tests. you figure out what works for you best.

most guys on here it seems like do not even cycle steroids anymore. they just blast and cruise or are on TRT. i think 90% of them have no business on TRT, but hey thats my opinion. keep your cycles SHORT and stay off for time on X 2, consider even running only 1 cycle per year... and you shouldn't have any problem with a decent PCT. again my opinion. run a long cycle, and cycle off half the time, then jump on another long cycle and then get thrown on TRT so fast it makes your head spin. happens all the time. its tempting to want to run your next cycle 2 weeks after you finished your last, cant do that bro. gotta be SMART

good advice

*stiff arm temptation*

 

[Nelson Montana]

Tical has been very helpful and respectful of all members and their issues. This is a healthy intellectual debate and nothing more. To be fair Nelson, he never used the phrase inferior products, and didn't use the term "ignorant" until his account was disabled which would piss off anyone. Please forgive and reinstate this member.

Respectfully,
cgar

I didn't disable it. And I don't care why he was pissed.

Tical has been confrontational in the past and I'm cool with that. But when someone starts acting like they're the authority, it has to be put in check. I use my real name. People know who needto is. We need to back up what we say and do. ANyone can come on here and tell people what to do and not have to answer to anyone. And when they give advice I feel is in error, I'm going to say something.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yet calling me out of my league because you're an old timer is just fine?

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NOPE, YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE WHEN YOU TRY TO COME OF AS AN EXPERT AND DIMISS EXPERTS.


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Yes, testosterone will drop down SOME. However, at this point you have already "jumpstarted" your HPTA. That is the point of using SERMs for PCT - not to keep testosterone high, but to get pituitary stimulation back up once more.

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BUT THEY AREN;T VERY GOOD AT IT. HCG IS.


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If you just stopped taking steroids and did nothing for PCT, your HPTA will return to an equilibrium but this could take a VERY long time.

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AGREED. NO ONE IS DEBATING THAT.

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The whole point of PCT is to jumpstart this process. You already know this.

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AND THAT;S WHAT HCG DOES VERY WELL. BUT AT SOME POINT THE BODY HAS TO TAKE OVER. THAT'S WHERE THE SUPPS HELP. CLOMID DOESN;T HELP DO THAT.



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Not just testosterone production but other things like estrogen, shbg, neurological function, psychology, prolactin, cortisol, etc.

To think high test = high sex drive is oversimplifying.


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I SAID THEY WERE CONNECTED.


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I never said everyone/anyone that disagrees with me is ignorant - just you. This wouldn't be true if you actually did more than just say "this works that doesn't" then I wouldn't be saying it.

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NOW YOU'RE LYING.


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The products you guys are pushing might very well be excellent products. But, what about the threads where people said the use of your products alone for PCT have failed them? Are they just bashing your products as well? Do they get a ban as well?

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THE APPROVAL RATING FOR UNLEASHED IS 95%. BUT IT ISN; THE ONLY THING YOU NEED. PEOPLE DO THINGS INCORRECTLY. I CAN;T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT AND YOU CAN;T BLAME THE PRODUCTS. PEOPE USE CLOMID AND HAVE WORSE RESULTS. AND I BELIEV I CAN INCLUDE YOU IN THAT GROUP. I BELIEVE YOU OVER USED ANTI E'S AND FELT SICK. SO OBVIOUSLY WHAT YOU'VE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE DID NOT WORK.


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At least I have the balls to speak up, ask questions, and state the obvious.

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IT DOESN'T TAKE BALLS TO SPEAK UP BEHIND AND ANONOMOUS SIG ON THE INTERNET. BUT WHAT YOU THINK IS OBVIOUS IS JUST YOUR BELIEF.


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I've never once said your products are inferior, you've come to that conclusion by yourself.

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YOU SAID CLOMID IS BETTER. I DISAGREE.


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My entire point in every thread I've posted in is that SERM therapy does exactly what it is supposed to do, prevent the brain from recognizing estrogen and increase hormone production. Period. That is the entire reason these drugs were developed.

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BUT NOT IN THE CASE OF SUPPRESSION FROM STEROIDS. THAT, IS WHAT YOU;RE NOT GETTING.


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Do you think it's reasonable to expect people to just put their trust into a "senior member" just because they say these products are good

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THAT HAS NEVER BEEN WHAT I'VE DONE. I'VE EXPLAINED THE SCIENCE HUNDREDS OF TIMES. MAYBE YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.


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- yet ditch other options (SERM therapy) proven by medical science and studies done by full blown medical doctors / endocrine specialists? C'mon now.

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AND HOW MUCH TRAINING DOES A TYPICAL DOCTOR HAVE WITH STEROID CYCLES? INCIDENTALLY, MY WORK HAS BEEN ENDORSED BY DOCTORS. AND YOURS?


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Grow some thicker skin.

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MY SKIN IS PLENTY THICK THANK YOU.


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If you've got a good product that you actually believe in, stand by it. Prove me wrong.

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I JUST DID.


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Show us some studies, show us some labwork. Don't just screw with my account to shut me up, it doesn't prove anything. If anything it raises more questions.

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BLOOD TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN POSTED MANY TIMES. MEANWHILE YOU FAIL TO RECOGNIZE THE FLAWS IN THE WEAK EVIDENCE YOU PRESENTED.

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I'll take the high road here and apologize if I offended you (or any other senior members) regarding my thoughts on SERM therapy for PCT or inadvertently making you feel as if I was calling your products inferior.

I hope you can see where I am coming from however, as a researcher, user, and natural skeptic. Blind faith is hard to have, especially when it relates to ones health.

...................................


I WOULD NEVER ASK SOMEONE TO GO ON BLIND FAITH. BUT I THINK AFTER BEING ON THE MARKET FOR 7 YEARS, IF UNLEASHED DIDN;T WORK, YOU'D KNOW ABOUT IT. MEANWHILE, IT'S BECOME ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR PCT SUPPS WITH VIRTUALLY NO ADVERTISING.

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[stevesmi]

Tical has been very helpful and respectful of all members and their issues. This is a healthy intellectual debate and nothing more. To be fair Nelson, he never used the phrase inferior products, and didn't use the term "ignorant" until his account was disabled which would piss off anyone. Please forgive and reinstate this member.

Respectfully,
cgar

I honestly dont get it either. he never said they were inferior products, maybe i am missing the post... the dude knows his stuff as does Nelson. they just disagree on this subject.

I've got these products sitting in my kitchen as we speak. i just took bridge and gear. but this is ridiculous if we cannot have an honest discussion and disagree on PCT strategies.

I actually was at a wedding recently and some frat boys started talking about steroids and I interjected and knocked their socks off thanks to guys like tical, nelson, and others who share this valuable info on here. those frat boys were dumbfounded how i could know so much about this subject. we need to keep the debate going, not shut it down.

please please please lets all get along.

 

[C.K.]

They went at it in numerous threads it was getting a lil annoying to say the least...

 

[tical2]

I didn't disable it. And I don't care why he was pissed.

Tical has been confrontational in the past and I'm cool with that. But when someone starts acting like they're the authority, it has to be put in check. I use my real name. People know who needto is. We need to back up what we say and do. ANyone can come on here and tell people what to do and not have to answer to anyone. And when they give advice I feel is in error, I'm going to say something.

I've *never* been rudely confrontational in the past. I've always been respectful. I hate board trolls just as much as anyone else. I've only stated my opinions on issues that oppose yours. Do you really believe I'm on some kind of crusade to screw you guys out of a few orders of your products? Please.

You seem to be letting your ego get in the way of valuable discussion.

Everyone that is posting on this board is stating their personal opinions. I've never said I was an authority on anything. Anyone can feel free to do their own research and come to their own conclusions about SERM therapy for PCT.

You say "We need to back up what we say and do."

Ironically, I've been the only one doing (with medical studies) that you either don't know how to comprehend or purposely refer to out of context. Unfortunately, you guys aren't doing this. That is the whole reason I keep running my mouth. I've got no vested interest in who buys what on this board. Where is the backup for what you're saying and doing?

Where is the proof that these products actually work BETTER for PCT on individuals that are shutdown/suppressed from AAS use? PCT is a very serious subject.

You say you need to be held accountable, then be held accountable, show us (not just me, all of your customers) something!!!


-- I don't have the energy to beat a dead horse here. I've said what I had to say. I'm done.

 

[tical2]

NOPE, YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE WHEN YOU TRY TO COME OF AS AN EXPERT AND DIMISS EXPERTS.

So you're a self appointed expert? Pretty cocky wouldn't you agree?

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BUT THEY AREN;T VERY GOOD AT IT. hcg IS.

You still haven't explained how this is true. All you've done is kept saying "I've explained it and you missed it."

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AND THAT;S WHAT hcg DOES VERY WELL. BUT AT SOME POINT THE BODY HAS TO TAKE OVER. THAT'S WHERE THE SUPPS HELP. Clomid DOESN;T HELP DO THAT.

The supps help by what mechanism? Raising LH? Increasing GnRH signaling from the hypothalamus to the pituitary?

Or have you "already explained this?"

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THE APPROVAL RATING FOR Unleashed IS 95%. BUT IT ISN; THE ONLY THING YOU NEED. PEOPLE DO THINGS INCORRECTLY. I CAN;T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT AND YOU CAN;T BLAME THE PRODUCTS. PEOPE USE Clomid AND HAVE WORSE RESULTS. AND I BELIEV I CAN INCLUDE YOU IN THAT GROUP. I BELIEVE YOU OVER USED ANTI E'S AND FELT SICK. SO OBVIOUSLY WHAT YOU'VE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE DID NOT WORK.

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My issue was with Arimidex and while on a cycle. This isn't related to PCT.

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IT DOESN'T TAKE BALLS TO SPEAK UP BEHIND AND ANONOMOUS SIG ON THE INTERNET. BUT WHAT YOU THINK IS OBVIOUS IS JUST YOUR BELIEF.

I guess I should strive for self appointed expert status.

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YOU SAID Clomid IS BETTER. I DISAGREE.

I said clomid is PROVEN.

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BUT NOT IN THE CASE OF SUPPRESSION FROM STEROIDS. THAT, IS WHAT YOU;RE NOT GETTING.

This is what you're not getting. Read the studies again. They specifically state "secondary hypogonadism."

What are we classified as when we use steroids and become suppressed? As suffering from (acquired) secondary hypogonadism.

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THAT HAS NEVER BEEN WHAT I'VE DONE. I'VE EXPLAINED THE SCIENCE HUNDREDS OF TIMES. MAYBE YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.

Again, you keep saying this. But you haven't. You haven't named one element in any of the products that does anything.

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AND HOW MUCH TRAINING DOES A TYPICAL DOCTOR HAVE WITH STEROID CYCLES? INCIDENTALLY, MY WORK HAS BEEN ENDORSED BY DOCTORS. AND YOURS?

We're not talking about your "work" unless you have some PCT related work that has been endorsed by doctors. If so please share it with us.

You actually think you're more qualified to speak on this subject than every doctor that has done every study?

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I JUST DID.

Where?

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BLOOD TEST RESULTS HAVE BEEN POSTED MANY TIMES. MEANWHILE YOU FAIL TO RECOGNIZE THE FLAWS IN THE WEAK EVIDENCE YOU PRESENTED.

So you must believe that NO evidence is better than any evidence. Because you haven't shared a single piece of evidence other than sales numbers and "approval" ratings.