Best Drink To Pack On Solid Mass

[Silent Method]

Good post Fukkenshredded.

 

[MrTrap]

I'm not sure if this qualifies as "experience" but I was training, and training other people, before Fonz was alive.

Really? According to your web page http://www.nelsonmontana.com/gallery.html you were still a stick at 38. Obviously you didn't know what you were doing up until then. Either with yourself or with any people insane enough to have allowed you to train them. Why would you list that time as experience?

I have over two hundred published works in this field.

So in the last 8-10 years, you've written a bunch of articles for T-mag.

 

[silver_shadow]

bumpity bump. lets talk snow peeing!

 

[Spidey]

Well now, about that glycogen window. As it turns out, there are some actual exact numbers and data that can be used to determine just when the body is finished exercising. Bear in mind that there is a distinct difference between exercise and movement.

Now Nelson, you asked how the body can distinguish between types of exercise. Well, what it can distinguish is rate of caloric expenditure, and we can deduce from a huge body of work that there is a definitive difference in fuel sources during exercise, depending on factors such as VO2max.

In fact, the Total Quality Management (TQM) as used to improve the competitiveness of Australian swimmers, By Dr. Robert Treffene - Future Splash, Oct. 14 - 17, 1995, very specifically addresses such componenets of exercise as type of muscle fiber used, rate of glycogen expenditure, fat expenditure, glycogen replenishment, workload, exertion, etc.

Here is an excerpt:

Glycogen has a limited holding space in the muscles. When used in training programs the total quantity available will be dissipated at different rates dependent on the speed used by the swimmer.

The replacement rate depends on many factors including (1) the type of muscles (white or red fast twitch or slow twitch) used at the selected speed and also (2) the type of exercise immediately following the fast set and what has been done in the previous session and what is done in the following sessions.

Replacement of the glycogen to the muscles takes from 12 hours to 3 days.

Table 1 gives a guide as to the rules for the glycogen recovery time which are used to set up fast and slow work within a weekly program. This enables race pace work in a program throughout the training season.

Table 1.
work load %VO2max event dominant fuel dominant fibre glycogen time replace time references
10-30 channel fat I NA NA 28,32
30-50 magnetic fat I NA NA 28,32
50-70 long dis fat-gly I 2 hr 24hr 12,13,25,29,4 4
70-85 1500m (sprint) gly I-IIA <80 min 24hr-12hr 2,3,12,20,25,2 8,44
85-100 1500m (dist) gly IIA-I <80 min 12hr-24hr as above
100 800m gly IIA-I 40 min 12hr-24hr 2,31
110 400m gly IIA-I-IIB 30 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 2,11,43
120 200m gly IIA-I-IIB 20 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 11,12,30,39
140 100m gly IIA-IIB 15 min 12hr-3days 1,30,39
> 140 50m-25m CP-gly IIB 8 min 20sec-3days 1,14,30,39

The above replacement times are slower if there is any muscle damage.

I & IIA glycogen replacement time is based on the total stores lasting for 40 minutes at Vcr(or 100% VO2max).

IIB glycogen time based on stores of 8 minutes at 200% VO2max.
It is assumed that energy required for swimming propulsion is proportional to velocity cubed and at 100m pace energy used is 140% VO2max.

The cube root of 200/140 is 1.125 so:

if swimmer can swim 100m in 50s their 200% 50m time = 22.2 sec
if swimmer can swim 100m in 54s their 200% 50m time = 24 sec.
The glycogen utilisation is assumed to drop to low levels close to anaerobic threshold (AT) as below this level the synthesis of glycogen seems capable of equalling the removal rate in the type I fibres.

Note that a set of 12 X 300m or more swum at a speed between 75% to 85% VO2max in a session within 12 to 24 hours before a high intensity set will give a possibility of the IIB fibres being depleted for the second session as well as large depletion of the other two fibre groups.

By suitable positioning of fat metabolism swimming (70% of the total program) then high intensity sets swum near maximum heart rate (heart rate sets) and race pace sprint sets can be programmed each week.

Just one example of how specific knowledge is utilized to optimize exercise.

So the key here is simple…we just refer to the time frame immediately following EXHAUSTIVE exercise, see?

We don’t need to know if the body is finished moving, we just need to know the output threshold of that particular exercise on that particular person, which can easily be calculated with heart rate and resistance variables.

Generally, common sense tells us that as soon as we finish our last set of squats and then start walking home, or on the treadmill to cool down, we have finished out 'exhaustive exercise'...we don't need charts to figure that one out.

Pretty easy, really. The fifteen minutes start when you are FINISHED GIVING YOUR BEST EFFORT.

Damn Nelson, I'd say it's time to concede man. Every time you start in and ask for a reference or try to argue what you believe to be a "common sense" point, you get your ass handed to you on a platter.

Let's recap (not necessarily in order).

Nelson: "And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you're on the threadmil or walking home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout? What if the workout is 30 minutes or one hour? When does the 15 minutes start? See, these are the points that make the whole issue un-gaugeable."

Fukkinshredded: (see above quote)

Nelson: "Show me one reference that proves a high gycemic drink post workout grows more muscle than not taking in a high glycemic drink.

And don't post some bullshit about carbs replenishing glycogen storage. We all knew that before you were alive. Prove to me exactly how and why it grows more muscle. I'll be waiting."

Nelson: "Still waiting for those references Silent....Any time you're ready."

Nelson: "SHOW A REFERENCE THAT PROVES SOMEONE WILL GROW MORE MUSCLE BY INGESTING A HIGH GI CARB THAN SOMEONE WHO JUST EATS WHEN HE'S DAMN GOOD AND READY".

AND YOU DIDN'T. YOU COULDN'T. THEY DON'T EXIST."

Silent Method: "*Driskell, J. (2000). Nutritional applications in exercise and sport. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Groff, J. and Gropper, S. (2000). Advanced nutrition and human metabolism. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Burke, E. Optimal muscle recovery. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Wolinsky, I. (1997). Nutrition in exercise and sport. Third edition. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Ratzin-Jackson, C. (2000). Nutrition and the strength athlete. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Kleiner, S. (1998). Power eating: build muscle, gain energy, lose fat <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Colgan, M. (1993) Optimum Sports Nutrition. <and his other, more recent books that I will not type out, as well as the myriad of journal citations within his books >

*Berning, J. and Steen, S. (1998). Nutrition for sport and exercise. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Maughan, R and Murray, R. (2000) Sports drinks: basic science and practical aspects. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

A few studies:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance exercise on substrate availability and markers of catabolism.
Lundberg <found this one on microfice, sorry, I'm not typing it out, but if you are serious about the subject, you'll want to look it up>

Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise.
Chandler RM, Byrne HK, Patterson JG, Ivy JL
J Appl Physiol 1994 Feb 76:839-45
J Appl Physiol • Volume 76 • Issue 2

Carbohydrate ingestion/supplementation or resistance exercise and training.
Conley MS, Stone MH
Sports Med 1996 Jan 21:7-17
Sports Med • Volume 21 • Issue 1

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training
B. D. Roy1, M. A. Tarnopolsky1,2, J. D. Macdougall1, J. Fowles1, and K. E. Yarasheski3

1 Department of Kinesiology and 2 Department of Neurology and Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1; and 3 Metabolism Division, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110
Received 16 September 1996; accepted in final form 10 February 1997.

Roy, B. D., M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall, J. Fowles, and K. E. Yarasheski. Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training. J. Appl. Physiol. 82(6): 1882-1888, 1997.

Ingestion of Protein Hydrolysate and Amino Acid-Carbohydrate Mixtures Increases Postexercise Plasma Insulin Responses in Men
Luc J. C. van Loon*2, Margriet Kruijshoop*, Hans Verhagen, Wim H. M. Saris* and Anton J. M. Wagenmakers*

* Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute NUTRIM, Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, the Netherlands and TNO Nutrition and Food Research Institute, Food and Non-Food Analysis Department, Zeist, the Netherlands

Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.
Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M
J Appl Physiol 1993 Aug 75:1019-23
J Appl Physiol • Volume 75 • Issue 2

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550

Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise.
Biolo G, Williams BD, Fleming RY, Wolfe RR
Diabetes 1999 May 48:949-57

Diabetes • Volume 48 • Issue 5


Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1
1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802


Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise.
Kreider RB
Sports Med 1999 Feb 27:97-110
Sports Med • Volume 27 • Issue 2


Muscle glycogen synthesis before and after exercise.
Ivy JL
Sports Med 1991 Jan 11:6-19

Sports Med • Volume 11 • Issue 1

TESTOSTERONE - PHYSIOLOGY AND FACTORS AFFECTING SERUM CONCENTRATION
David Woodhouse: MSc Sports Science "


These references are EXACTLY what you asked for. They are not just a bunch of references about "some bullshit about carbs replenishing glycogen storage."

Actually, if you had read and understood them, ALL of the references given were salient to your question. They addressed each of SM's points:
*Exercise elicits a catecholamine response.
*Catecholamines elicit a catabolic response.
*Intense bouts of exercise elicit a catabolic response.
*Carbohydrate elicits an insulin response.
*Insulin elicits an anabolic/anti-catabolic response.
*High GI carbohydrate elicits a greater insulin response more rapidly than low GI carbohydrate.
*High GI carbohydrate consumed post-exercise elicits a greater, more rapid anabolic/anti-catabolic effect than low GI carbohydrate.
Even if you didn't understand most of them, of particular note are the references that contain direct references to anabolism, catabolism, muscle growth, or protein metabolism in the title such as:

"Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance exercise on substrate availability and markers of catabolism."

"An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise"

"Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise."

"Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training "

Come on man, just face up to the fact you were mistaken. We all are once in a while. Keeping this whole thing going is really starting to make you look bad.

(Note that in this whole post, I have not personally attacked or insulted you once so please don't respond by saying otherwise.)

 

[flex2win]

I think we've stirred up the hornets nest!!!

 

[jubei]

I don't get it either spidey? WTF is wrong with you Nelson?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ooooh, such big numbers! Such impressive looking scientific calculations!

Look, it's obvious we're talking two different languages here. I've stated a dozen times now, this is not about glycogen loading and what do I get -- study after study, after study, after study, after study, aftsr study , after study about REPLENISHING GLLYCOGEN!!! FINE ! YOU WIN!!!

It's obvious you want to win. So I'll concede that you will never understandthis. So you, know.... You win! Happy? You're still wrong. I'm not going to lie.

Funken: Is the "pefect time" for that high GI drink 15 minutes after your last intense set the same if you make the last intense set the fourth or the fourteeth? Think about it.

AND I"LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME (not that it's getting through), but...

Do you really think it makes a rats ass hair of a difference in the long run in terms of muscle growth? I SAY NO. You say yes. You have absolutely NO PROOF that it does other than abstact studies which have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. But you don't understand that, so I can't help you. It's like saying that drinking a glass of water will grow 150 pounds of musclebeause there's documentation that a 150 pound man died of dyhydration. Had he gotten a glass of water he would have maintained 150 pounds. See? Do you get this? Do you understand how one thing really has nothing to do with the otherand that you can use statistics to enforce any point of view if you just skim over them? And that's what happens here all the time. I'll bet NO ONE actually read that studies. because if they did, they'd see that I'm right. And heaven forbid if that happened.

Mr . Trap. You can conclude I didn't know what I was doing, but in truth I knew quite a bit. I believe what my "before" pics show is just how much of a hardgainer I was. So , you're wrong.

You also make the assumption that I've only written for T-Mag. Wrong again.

This is so boring. Post after post after post I keep showing people that they're wrong and it means nothing. Because the goal here is to try and discredit me. But you can't. You can however, lie, misinterpret and/or continue to attack. Or in some cases simply not understand the issue. And in others simply disagree. So why is thread still going? How many more times do I have state my case and how many more times do I to show that these accusations are wrong? Somebody close this thread and save these people from themselves. Please.

 

[jubei]

"It's obvious you want to win. So I'll concede that you will never understandthis. So you, know.... You win! Happy? You're still wrong. I'm not going to lie."

You call yourself a writer?? This is nonsense.

The only reason you can't be discredited at this point is because you have no credibility. You didn't look like a hardgainer in the before pics, you looked like someone who had never picked up a weight in his life.

 

[Silent Method]

Funken: Is the "pefect time" for that high GI drink 15 minutes after your last intense set the same if you make the last intense set the fourth or the fourteeth? Think about it.

Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.

 

[Fukkenshredded]

The fifteen minutes begins after the last set, whether it is the fourth or the fourteenth.

As long as you are able to do another set, you are not actually exhausted, so of course the issue is not as relevant in that case.

I didn't post that to put up big numbers and try to impress. I put that up to show one example of how our current knowledge about rates of exhaustion and muscle recovery is being utilized to enhance performance, and with success.

Proof, of anything, is elusive if we keep redefining terms. At times, Nelson, you redefine your own terms in the middle of your logic chain. Certainly nobody here has offered any proof that muscle growth is accelerated via the proposed mechanisms, but what we have done is make a fairly good case that it PROBABLY does.

There is a huge body of evidence in swimming, cycling, marathoning, and olympic lifting that seemingly ratifies the theories on which the practicises are based.

All I was doing was posting one of them, one of hundreds, with simple concepts and a basic framework that is easily understood by everyone.

I apologize if again this seems personal; of course it is not. The fact is, I could certainly be wrong.

But think about this: If those of us who believe this data are in the wrong, then so are the vast majority of current top athletic coaches for swimming, cycling, and running.


So what some of us are wondering is this:

What are the SPECIFIC reasons that you do NOT believe that these data are correct?

Have you been able to observe and document a series of events that contradict these findings? And if so, why don't I have any of your articles in my vault of studies, and why, when I search on the net for relevant studies in these fields, does your name never appear?