Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below For anyone who has a lot of experience with this stuff.....if you have to chose between injectable Winny or Anavar tabs, which is better? I've heard Anavar gives fewer side effects in women, but you get more stress on the liver anytime you take tablets. So, which would be preferable?
Anavar or Winny---which is better?
- Thread starter kellygirl
- Start date
Bruce
New member
anavar is better hands down because it doenst give joint pain plain and simple imo. for a woman you can run 5mg of var a day and have great results so its not even a question. winny injected is just as stressful on the liver, though i know people who stay on it year round and are fine so how toxic var and winny really are is suspect to me. don't even think twice go with anavar strengthens joints and tendons while winstrol will hurt them. you don't have to run it at a high dose so the $ is not an issue like it is for us guys who need 50 or more of var daily
marshallmadman
New member
I love me some Anavar, and my girl does too.
needtogetaas
New member
bruce knows his shit.bruce410 said:
PRoXoNEtAPiMpbitch
New member
anavar 4 my woman !!
at 10 mg a day for 12 weeks
you can stack some test with it... maybe 100 mg every 10 days if it is enanthate... great results!!
at 10 mg a day for 12 weeks
you can stack some test with it... maybe 100 mg every 10 days if it is enanthate... great results!!
The Red Dragon
New member
Good post Bruce
Would it be a bad idea for a male to run var alone on a first cycle?
Would it be a bad idea for a male to run var alone on a first cycle?
marshallmadman
New member
bruce410 said:
You can't come on here and say someone will or won't put on weight with their first var cycle. Come on man. Let's get real here.
Var for a first cycle would be an excellent choice. 50mg/day for 8 weeks would really make a big difference in someone's body comp. He might not put on a whole lot of weight, but if he eats right, and hits the iron hard, he will look like a completely different person after 8 weeks.
Everyone reacts differently to a broad spectrum of anabolics. Some people react well to Test/high androgens. Others respond better to more anabolic/less androgenic compounds. I am one of the latter. I get more out of Primo/Var than I do Test/Tren.
Anavar would be a great 1st cycle choice. It's probably the best. After that, jump on some test.
Techbaseball
New member
bruce410 said:
I have read soooo much about Anavar that I think i've lost some vision out of my left eye. I have read multiple threads and articles about Anavar only cycles. It appears that results from Anavar all depends on Diet and training. If you are in the process of a bulking routine... u can expect possible lbm gains between 5-15 lbs (8 week cycle 40-60mg ed). If you using Anavar during a cutting phase.... then expect to get hard and vascular.. with possible lbm gains of 0-5 lbs.
Again.. only speaking from what I've read. Will be able to provide real life experience soon.
Personally, I'm going to try to bulk from an Anavar only cycle.--Techbaseball
wayneboard1
New member
bruce410 said:
Good post Bruce, K to you. I wondered if there was a hardener that was easy or beneficial on the joints and now I know. However I may have to sell my truck to afford a cycle.
Last edited:
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
Would you please explain why someone eating sufficient protein and total calories could not gain 10lbs on a var-only cycle?
It's posts like this that screw people up and make them think it's the drug doing all the work. You can bulk on any steroid; you can cut on any steroid. Period.
bicepts101
New member
marshallmadman said:
pay attention to who the original poster is bro
bicepts101
New member
10-15mg ed of var for a women
go to the womens forum..these guys will start shooting advise for a man
go to the womens forum..these guys will start shooting advise for a man
Joe Stenson
New member
bicepts101 said:
He was responding to this:
The Red Dragon said:
bicepts101
New member
regardless i do agree with you guys that say it is possible to gain 10b on var only....ive heard of people who have 15 on var only
Outtlaw
New member
Why anyone would want to bulk with anavar is beyond me.Techbaseball said:I have read soooo much about Anavar that I think i've lost some vision out of my left eye. I have read multiple threads and articles about Anavar only cycles. It appears that results from Anavar all depends on Diet and training. If you are in the process of a bulking routine... u can expect possible lbm gains between 5-15 lbs (8 week cycle 40-60mg ed). If you using Anavar during a cutting phase.... then expect to get hard and vascular.. with possible lbm gains of 0-5 lbs.
Again.. only speaking from what I've read. Will be able to provide real life experience soon.
--Techbaseball
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:Why anyone would want to bulk with anavar is beyond me.
Another bizarre statement imo. And I bet you like things like d-bol and deca to bulk with...
Just because something doesn't bloat the $#%@ out of you doesn't mean it can't be used on a bulk.
Why WOULDN'T you want to bulk with anavar? You don't like large strength gains when bulking? You don't like keeping a feeling of hardness when you're blowing up from all the calories?
I can see an argument for appetite suppression, but this only affects some people.
Outtlaw
New member
It's only bizzare to you. Var is too costly and you have to use too much of it to get reasonable results for bulk purposes. Maybe if you're 150lbs and it's your 1st or 2nd cycle, var might be worth while for bulking. But why anyone at an advanced level would want to bulk with one of the mildest anabolics available is beyond me. There are much better choices IMO.Joe Stenson said:
But this is exactly why you cant tell people anything on these boards anymore. Most of the guys here arent looking to get huge, they just want to gain 10-15lbs and be ripped. So they push the weakest compounds in the lowest doses, with the least amount of sides and dont want to hear anything different. And then there's always some rookie comming on here saying how they blew up on 100mg/wk of primo. Anyone with a decent amount of mass knows that's complete bullshit. But hey, if you want to take your little 35-40mg of var and gain 5lbs so you can look like the guy on the cover of GQ magazine, then more power to you. But for those who want to gain some real mass, then I suggest you make better bulking choices than var only cycles.
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
1) Everyone has different goals. I personally don't aspire to look like the guy on the cover of GQ, but I'm not trying to be Ronnie Coleman either.
2) Saying it's not a good choice based on cost is assuming money is a limiting factor for everyone, which it clearly is not. If you had said, "var is a terrible choice when considering bang for your buck" then fine, but that's different.
3) Wanting to use drugs that can provide results, while limiting side effects, seems pretty intelligent to me. You obviously don't agree.
4) 35-40mg var, lol. THIS right here is why guys bash var. We're talking about one of the, if not the, mildest anabolics out there and you're running 280mg/week? Test is more potent and you're not running 280mg test/week now are you?
It's like the guys who bash Satch for running primo because it's so weak. Yeah, it's weak if you're running 300mg/week, but he's running a gram. Use some common sense people.
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
"Too much" by whose standards? Like I said, lots of people are not limited by money and some will prefer to pay a premium to run drugs with less sides.
Outtlaw said:
"Huge" is relative. I said I don't want to look like Ronnie Coleman. I can assure you that you will never look like him either. I wouldn't mind being 5'11 230-240 10-12%...that's a pretty decent-sized guy.
marshallmadman
New member
bicepts101 said:
I know, we kinda got off on a tangent.
needtogetaas
New member
thank you.its just plane dume.Outtlaw said:Why anyone would want to bulk with anavar is beyond me.
Bruce
New member
yea i can explain i know people who run it at 75mg ed and eat 5000cals, anavar is not known for putting on mass, if you puttin on 15 lbs with var you shouldn't be using aas. why the f are you talkin shit to outlaw too, we are just trying to help someone, how bout this joey have you put on 10lbs of mass in 5 weeks on var? its hard to put on 10 with ot in 4 weeks let alone var or winny. i'm done this was a thread to help kellygirl out,Joe Stenson said:
Bruce
New member
i was simply giving him an idea of what to expect from a var only cycle, sorry but i don't know any people that have put on that kind of mass on var. i think it is a great aas but i think trying to bulk on it would be very difficult, he asked me a simple question and i gave him a broad answer,marshallmadman said:
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
It's not whether or not one "should" bulk with var; it's whether or not one "could" bulk with var. There's absolutely no reason one couldn't bulk up with var, or any other steroid for that matter. I'm not sure why you are pretending there is.
If someone was eating 5000 calories and not gaining weight it's not the drug's fault. It's the simple fact that they needed to eat more. The same can be said for someone eating 2000 calories or someone eating 7000 calories who isn't gaining weight.
And I'm "talkin shit to outlaw" because he's wrong and I was telling him why.
bruce410 said:
Why?
marshallmadman
New member
bruce410 said:
That's okay, brotha. I just think Anavar is excellent for a first timer. Maybe someone with your build would benefit a ton more from something like Anadrol or Dbol for your first time.
I am currently doing Var at 40mg/day and couldn't be happier. I have a lot of cycles under my belt and this is my first time trying Anavar, and I am impressed to say the least.
Bruce
New member
outlaw is not wrong if you wanna bulk test or dbol is a much better choice especially considering that var suppresses the appetite. like i said if youve put on 15 lbs with var alone thats quite a feat. i agree it will make you look great and with low bf transform your body nicely but for bulking please.
DieselGunz
New member
I will make this short and sweet
VAR!!!!!!!
VAR!!!!!!!
Bruce
New member
bro i agree that is what i told the dude, he asked if it was a good first timer and is said absolutely if your not looking for huge mass gains, i don't see how that is so out of line, i think var is a great first choice because it is easy to recover from and its just a great aas, k to you bromarshallmadman said:
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
I love how people start assuming things and then a flame war starts, and then more things are assumed, and eventually no one even knows what they are arguing...
First, at no time in this thread did I ever recommend a var-ONLY cycle for bulking. I said there's no reason var couldn't be used on a bulk. For all you or outlaw knows that var could be part of a test/eq/deca/d-bol/var cycle. Now, if you want me to say that you can bulk on a var-only cycle, yeah I think you can, but this is the first time in the thread I've said it.
Mg for mg test is more powerful, and nothing beats d-bol. But, aside from appetite suppression (which I DID point out), there's no reason var could not be used to bulk with. Just because a drug does not cause water retention does not make it incapable in aiding a bulk.
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
Mass gains are almost directly proportional to food consumed. You "can" lose weight on d-bol or deca; you "can" gain weight on var...it all depends what your eating looks like. There's tons of threads like this on elite, I don't know why it sounds like I'm proposing something revolutionary. You can bulk or cut on any steroid. Some are preferred for one phase over another, but it doesn't mean the other cannot be done.
Bruce
New member
bro i am not arguing that with you diet is all that matters, you cannot say that dbol test or deca is not a better choice for bulking with var though, if you were to take in 5000 cals on var vs. deca you will put on more mass with deca plain and simple. i don't wanna have a flame war, i told the guy var was fine for his first cycle thats it. take care
DieselGunz
New member
Ok I am not adding to this so called flame war but here is my opinion
i am 27 yoa and have been lifting for 6 years now (clean). I finally decided to try my first AAS. I decided on Var because it is not overly toxic,it is a oral, and does not shut you down as hard as other gear.
My goal was to eat clean train hard and see what happened. When I started i was 6 feet 202 with about 10% I am now about 3 weeks and I am at 208 and i have dropped BF and alot of water.
My diet is intense thanx to Radar and Shadow i eat 6 times a day and moniter calories and protien. I have done 2 cardio sessions and abs three times a week.
ALL of my lifts have gone up, when i started i was benching 275 to 285 for sets and DL in the 420s for sets. Now i am doing sets with 315 and my DL is in the now in the 450s for sets. I am gettign stronger EVERY freakin day.
i am hard as a rock and veiny as all hell this shit is the BOMB...if I keep gaining weight that good but I will tell you this I love VAR
The pumps and the feeling of being tight ALL freakin day is the shit
Either way if you a woman or man try this shit, i am only on 40mgs for 8 weeks i cant wait for tomorrow, i know I will be bigger and harder.
I have never tried any other AAS so i can not compare, only writing about what i know.
i am 27 yoa and have been lifting for 6 years now (clean). I finally decided to try my first AAS. I decided on Var because it is not overly toxic,it is a oral, and does not shut you down as hard as other gear.
My goal was to eat clean train hard and see what happened. When I started i was 6 feet 202 with about 10% I am now about 3 weeks and I am at 208 and i have dropped BF and alot of water.
My diet is intense thanx to Radar and Shadow i eat 6 times a day and moniter calories and protien. I have done 2 cardio sessions and abs three times a week.
ALL of my lifts have gone up, when i started i was benching 275 to 285 for sets and DL in the 420s for sets. Now i am doing sets with 315 and my DL is in the now in the 450s for sets. I am gettign stronger EVERY freakin day.
i am hard as a rock and veiny as all hell this shit is the BOMB...if I keep gaining weight that good but I will tell you this I love VAR
The pumps and the feeling of being tight ALL freakin day is the shit
Either way if you a woman or man try this shit, i am only on 40mgs for 8 weeks i cant wait for tomorrow, i know I will be bigger and harder.
I have never tried any other AAS so i can not compare, only writing about what i know.
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
Fair enough. Although I still contend that it depends on your goals. 5000 cals on deca would probably bloat you like a balloon. You'd gain more WEIGHT, that's for sure. You might very well gain a bit more muscle too, but the difference won't be all that drastic and lots of people would rather gain 9lbs of pure muscle than 10lbs of muscle and 10lbs of water.
Outtlaw
New member
Now you're trying to backtrack and say you're not talking about a var only cycle?? WTF do you think this whole thread has been based on? The var only or var based cycle was the only issue at hand. Anyone can throw in some var with a bunch of other compounds and claim it works great for bulking. The reality is you're getting most of your mass gains from the other gear.Joe Stenson said:
It really baffles me how people come on this forum and act like they're the ultimate expert and know everything there is to know about AAS. And when people try to give them a little advice, they're not trying to hear it because there is NO WAY that they could ever not know it all.
And just so you know, not everyones gains on things like deca are all bloat. There are many people who get minimal amounts of bloat from deca with much more solid gains. So before you come on here and start trying to teach everyone what each and every drug can and cant do, you'd better get your facts straight.
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
I think if you can afford it, and you're not overly concerned with your liver, there's nothing wrong with dosages like that. You'd take 1g of test/week. Why not 1g of var? I guarantee that if nothing else, you'd FEEL a lot better on a gram of var.
And don't give any of this BS about "if you can gain a good amount of muscle on var you shouldn't be using gear in the first place". A better quote would be "if you CAN'T gain a good amount of muscle on var you shouldn't be using gear in the first place"...because you obviously don't have your diet and training dialed in.
And again, a very advanced bodybuilder isn't going to run a var-only cycle and I was never recommending it in the first place. But I don't think very many guys on elite are past the point where they couldn't make gains off a decent dose of var.
And yes, on a per $ basis, there are better compounds.
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
Actually, the reality is you're getting most of your mass gains from the food you're eating. Steroids only help you make better use of the calories you supply your body, they don't just build muscle on their own.
Which again is why ANY steroid can be used to cut or bulk. It's the dietary manipulations that make the difference. Some steroids are better suited for one purpose or another based on things like increased/decreased appetite or bloat (something you may not want while cutting).
Outtlaw said:
Wow, that sounds shockingly familiar...
Outtlaw said:
The point of the comparison was not the numbers used, but the simple fact that deca is going to bloat you to a degree and var will not. How much bloat is going to vary based on the individual and ancillaries used. If you're disagreeing with this I don't know what else to say.
As for var-only vs with other compounds, you said this awhile ago:
Outtlaw said:
I don't think many "advanced level" bodybuilders are going to be running single compound cycles anyway, so that kind of defeats your whole argument...
And again, it doesn't make sense to compare 40mg var/day to 500mg or 1g of test/week. You're taking LESS of a WEAKER drug. Obviously one is going to make it easier to bulk than the other.
If you cannot afford to run enough var to make a decent cycle out of it, then that's a different story...something I've already said a few times in this thread.
bicepts101
New member
LVTitan said:
fuck that this shit is great!!!
Outtlaw
New member
If you were taking the same amount of a weaker drug, you still would get lesser effects. But you cant seem to grasp this concept.Joe Stenson said:
Your whole theory is based on the idea that by taking mega doses of weaker drugs, you can bulk just as good, if not better than with stronger compounds. Well prove it. Find somebody who has the physique of a reagional / national level competitor (or someone close to it) who bulks with var based cycles. Im betting you wont be able to do it. Why? because you dont get to that level physically by running var based cycles.
So you tell me how a var based cycle can be more effective than other bulkers? If that was the case, then everyone would be bulking with var.
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
Yes I can. At no point did I ever say bulking with var is optimal. There's a concept you don't seem to grasp
.I'm not even recommending it either. I was merely pointing out a BS myth (that you can't gain mass with var) that doesn't need to be propagated throughout this board.
And just a question out of curiousity. If you took the SAME guy, had him eat the SAME diet, and do the SAME training, but had him take 1g var as opposed to 1g of test exactly how much better do you think his gains would be on the test? Once PCT is said and done and we're only talking about muscle gained, I can legitimately see a difference of a lb or two. It seems like you're thinking the difference would be much more substantial.
Outtlaw said:
Now that you don't have much to go on, you're putting words in my mouth. Please tell me where I ever said a var-based cycle is going to be MORE effective than other bulkers. For that matter, point me to where I even said it would be as effective. I didn't. I've simply been contending your initial point that you don't see why people would bulk with var. It's like saying you don't understand why people would eat chicken because steak is better. And if that were the argument, I would contend that you could do just fine eating chicken...much like you can do just fine using var.
Additionally, I'm not sure why you insist on mentioning regional or national-level competitors. How many guys on this board fall into that category?
And once again, guys at that level are not, for the most part anyway, running single compound cycles.
Techbaseball
New member
Outtlaw said:Why anyone would want to bulk with anavar is beyond me.
I can understand that. We probably define bulking differently. You are absolutely right... i am only looking for 10-15 lbs lbm. And.. yes... i do want to look like the GQ guy. Sorry? But i can totally see why a seasoned user wouldn't see jack shit from Anavar.
Tons of reasons to select Anavar over other cycles (for my specific goals that is). The above posts mention a ton.
--Techbaseball
Outtlaw
New member
You are seriously mental bro!! From the jump you were on here saying how you couldnt understand why someone "WOULDNT want to bulk with var". Talking all this shit about how the gains are good, more pure, no bloat, etc. And now you're agreeing with nearly everything Im trying to say. Even going as far as to say that at no point did you "ever say bulking with var is optimal", and that you would "not even recommend it."Joe Stenson said:Yes I can. At no point did I ever say bulking with var is optimal. There's a concept you don't seem to grasp
I'm not even recommending it either. I was merely pointing out a BS myth (that you can't gain mass with var) that doesn't need to be propagated throughout this board.
So let me make this clear. If you dont think bulking with var is optimal, and would not recommend it, then that means we agree with each other, SO SHUT THE FUCK UP and MOVE ON!!
Then why the fuck are you even responding to this thread!!Joe Stenson said:
No one ever said that you couldnt gain an ounce on var. That was never the argument!! All people are trying to tell you is that there are much better choices to bulk with, but you're on here contesting everybody arguing the point of how effective var can be as a bulker. You sound like an idiot comming on here trying to prove a dumbass point that makes no sense. Using var to bulk with is like using a street car in a Formula 1 race. Sure you can drive a street car in a Formula 1 race, but it's not going to be effective. But your method of thinking is trying to say, hey, it's not your car why you lost the race, it was because of your poor driving skills. (which is like saying, the var is not the reason why your gains sucked. It was because of your diet). And I dont care how much shit you put on your street car (or how much var you take) you're not going to out do the formula 1 car.
So can you bulk with var? Yes, just like you can run that formula 1 race with a honda accord. And you can finnish behind the guys who bulk with the more powerfull compounds.
Bruce
New member
put on 22 lbs of shredded muscle with deca didn't retain a thing. outlaw is right on, no one ever said anavar isn't great, its fantastic, but it is not the choice bulking steroid, and your a fool to think you would feel better on a gram of var rather than a gram of test.Outtlaw said:
Joe Stenson
New member
Outtlaw said:
If all you meant from the beginning was var isn't optimal then let me just say that's not how it came across. Either you or Bruce said you can't expect much in terms of mass from var. Bruce even gave an example of his buddy who ran 75mg ed and ate 5000 calories and didn't gain much. Well you know what, the guy wasn't eating enough. Unless it was because his appetite was suppressed, that's not the var's fault.
Also, I said many people don't want to bloat up on a cycle. We both know this is true. In the situation I gave, I even had the guy on deca gaining more muscle; I just said some people would prefer to give up the extra lb or two of muscle if it didn't mean having to look like a blowfish for 10 weeks.
You also never answered my hypothetical question about the guy on 1g var vs 1g test. Still wondering...
Outtlaw said:
Where do the less side effects from var come into your little car analogy?
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
This right here is what I'm talking about. If var is "the shit" for lean mass, then it should work well for a bulk. To some people a bulk means gaining as much muscle as possible, while still looking good in the process. And no, this doesn't apply to everyone. Others will prefer the "throw on 40lbs, keep 10 of it" approach. To each their own.
Outtlaw
New member
There you go speculating about how much more muscle you gain or lose based on what type of gear you run.Joe Stenson said:
I dont want to speculate on things that cant be substanciated. I will say that the guy on 1g of test will be able to gain more than the guy on 1g of var. You can speculate on how much more, but Im not.Joe Stenson said:
Well, I guess your driving at a much slower speed, so if you crash, you have a much greater chance of survival.Joe Stenson said:
I would like to know what you used that allowed you to get 40lbs gains while only being able to yeild 10. Again, you seem to be speculating that gains are only 1-2lbs different on var as compared to something like test. I dont know how you come to these conclusions.Joe Stenson said:
Joe Stenson
New member
bruce410 said:
I almost want to stop responding to you because it's so annoying reading your posts that don't use proper grammar, but I will anyway.
"Bulking" means attempting to gain muscle. If some fat and water come along with it, then so be it, but the qualifying factor is the muscle gain. And there's no reason this cannot be accomplished on var. Will some compounds allow you to do this more easily? Perhaps, but you seem to be implying that if a guy is eating well over maintenance, yet using var, that he won't be able to gain any mass.
Lol at "shredding your muscle". You mean what happens when you *gasp*...cut? You seem to be putting a lot of stock into which drugs you're using and not much into what is actually important: one's diet. Var doesn't have to make you shredded; you can take var and gain lbs of fat as well...
Outtlaw said:
You are forgetting "I" am the one saying diet is what matters, not your choice of drug. Like I said above, if you think var is going to cause an equivalent amount of bloat to deca, I am unsure why I am even continuing this debate.
Outtlaw said:
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT THOUGH. If the guy on test isn't going to gain that much more than the guy on var, then many people would prefer to run the var because there are less sides. THAT is my argument. Your posts, as well as Mr. Grammar's, are implying that you feel the gains from test are going to be substantially greater. If that's not the case, then there is no argument to be had.
ex. Guy's maintenance calories = 4000
Guy is bulking so he consumes 5000 calories everyday
We're talking about the same guy, with the same genetics, doing the same training program. Is he really going to gain that much more off of test than var? I don't think so; you guys seem to. And if there is a large difference in muscle gained over the course of the cycle, did the extra sides make it worth it?
In any event, an advanced bodybuilder is not going to be running a var-only cycle OR a test-only cycle.
Outtlaw said:Well, I guess your driving at a much slower speed, so if you crash, you have a much greater chance of survival.
lol, thank-you, the analogy is now complete.
Outtlaw said:
It's called a hypothetical example, with a hint of exageration thrown in. And yes, I AM speculating that the gains wouldn't be that much different. That's my entire argument. When was the last time you ran 1g of var/week? You've been speculating this whole time as well, but all of a sudden you won't admit it.
And guys please, was the bombing really necessary? We've got a half decent debate going and then you go and do that. I suppose it would have been better if I just agreed with you both right off the bat. Elite would really be a great board if everyone kissed everyone else's ass and all agreed on everything
.
Outtlaw
New member
Diet has it's place, but it's not the only factor in determing gains. The type of drug you use does make a difference, but you seem to believe that all drugs are created equal, or at least close enough to where the difference in gains is only a mear pound or two.Joe Stenson said:
That's your argument AND your assumption, and Im saying you're wrong if you think there wont be much difference in gains between a var cycle vs a test or deca cycle.Joe Stenson said:
Did it ever occur to you that purhaps you might be WRONG about something, yet you keep trying to push your point on people to the point that it's agrivating them, and that's why people are bombing you??Joe Stenson said:And guys please, was the bombing really necessary? We've got a half decent debate going and then you go and do that. I suppose it would have been better if I just agreed with you both right off the bat. Elite would really be a great board if everyone kissed everyone else's ass and all agreed on everything
needtogetaas
New member
what you say I cant see it.Joe Stenson said:
Quadsweeps Sister
New member
PRoXoNEtAPiMpbitch said:
........enanthate...Um, maybe she could just start first with the 5mg var and see if she wants to move on from there. Or maybe grow some facial hair and have a voice to match? J/k about the second part, but she'd be good to go with the var. No hypocrite here - I knows how it goes.
__________________
Mythicwrld
"We deceive ourselves when we fancy that only weakness needs support. Strength needs it far more."
Wow! This was actually pretty informative....although, I kind of got lost in the middle of it since I am WAY new to the AAS world and still trying to figure it all out. I recently started Growth and am about to start my first AAS. Obviously I should choose Var and not Winny. There's not exactly a lot of resources on this kind of stuff where I am. So, I REALLY appreciate the help!
RADAR
Well-known member
Kellygirl you may want to check out the womens forum also it covers diet and all woman related stuff!
Welcome to elite!
Click this link!
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388278
RADAR
Welcome to elite!
Click this link!
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388278
RADAR
I will do so. Thanks for the help! KellyRADAR said:Kellygirl you may want to check out the womens forum also it covers diet and all woman related stuff!
Welcome to elite!
Click this link!
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388278
RADAR
But doesn't Var kill sex drive after a while on the stuff????
bicepts101
New member
edited....i decided my comments were below me....carry on dogpack
Last edited:
bicepts101
New member
bruce410 said:
im not really taking sides im just tired of his stubburness.....anavar is not a bulking compound
the answer here is simple:
heres an article by big cat. keep in mind bulkinig doesnt mean turn into a fat pig:
By: Big Cat
Estrogen As An Anabolic? More Important Than You Think.
This illustrious issue has been hotly debated in the past. Does estrogen have an anabolic contribution to make? That it does is not so much an issue any more, several studies have demonstrated that indeed growth is promoted with strong androgens, more so in the presence of estrogen. This is also the reason many cattle implants today contain a form of estrogen as well, next to a potent androgen.
The debate today mainly centers around whether or not supraphysiological doses of estrogen can benefit growth more than a permissive, physiological dose of estrogen. Extensive experience as well as a lot of indirect evidence has taught me that this is definitely the case.
Of course, if I could have proven it conclusively before, it wouldn't have been much of a debate. Now, however, evidence clearly demonstrates that estrogen is anabolic in a dose responsive way. Even more important it clearly shows how levels of estrogen can help determine whether you are more likely to become a strength athlete or an endurance athlete.
In the past estrogen has been shown to increase local IGF-1, probably through a decrease in systemic liver-derived IGF-1 and a subsequent increase in circulating growth hormone. It has been shown to activate the mitogen activated protein kinase cascade (1), one of the ways in which IGF-1 and insulin exert anabolic effects, and it has been shown to increase cyclo-oxygenase activity (2) which would result in an enhanced immune-response and increased manufacture of prostaglandins.
Several prostaglandins have been implicated in enhancing both muscle anabolism and fat loss, by sensitizing tissues to the effects of testosterone and IGF-1. However none of these effects have been shown to occur specifically in skeletal muscle tissue, and for none of them it has been determined whether or not the effects are enhanced with increased doses of estrogen or not.
Estrogen works through so many ways that are anabolic or potentially anabolic, and a few of those are bound to increase in supraphysiological doses, but nonetheless, previously this was all conjecture.
One system we do know however that is dose responsive to estrogen, is the renin-angiotensin system. Estrogen increases the activity of this system, renin converts angiotensinogen to Angiotensin I, and then Angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) converts it to Angiotensin II (AngII). Angiotensin II in turn stimulates aldosterone release. AngII and aldosterone are the main hormonal factors implicated in elevated blood pressure and water retention.
As any seasoned steroid user knows, estrogen has a very dose responsive reaction on this system. Drugs with a very rapid and high increase in estrogen or estrogenic actions, like testosterone suspension, Anadrol and Dianabol, cause massive increases in blood pressure, headaches and water retention.
The pink ones are Anabol (Dianabol) and the yellow ones are Stanabol (Winstrol). These are very popular right now. They are 5 mg tabs and they sell for less than 30 cents a tab.
Many tissues express a local Renin-angiotensin System (RAS), including skeletal muscle tissue, that exists partially through uptake of systemic RAS components and partially through de novo synthesis of its components (AngII, ACE). One study in particular linked this skeletal muscle RAS to exercise performance (3), and the results were quite remarkable to say the least.
High ACE, and consequently AngII, resulted in a poorer athletic performance, but greater muscular strength and muscular hypertrophy. Subjects with higher levels of ACE had a higher level of Type II fiber and intracellular glucose stores, whereas people with lower ACE had higher Type I fiber, higher degree of vascularization and higher levels of interstitial glucose.
This higher interstitial glucose means a lot of the glucose is excreted from intracellular stores and can be readily mobilized. All these things are supportive a greater endurance and greater athletic performance. In the former situation, performance would suffer, but strength would increase to a much greater extent.
The implication of this is quite profound, since it offers a reason for genetic phenotyping. In humans ACE expression is dependent on insertion (I) or deletion (D) of a 287 base pair sequence in intron 16. That means three phenotypes exist, I/I, I/D and D/D.
The distribution of these phenotypes among Caucasian males is 25%, 50% and 25%. That means if you fall in the former or latter category, you have a genetic tendency to become better at endurance or strength sports. I/I has the lowest RAS expression, and D/D has the highest RAS expression.It also offers a point of manipulation to reach your desired goal. Logically said manipulation would be most successful in the I/D phenotype, since promoting or reducing RAS activity could push you in either direction, while the promoting RAS in I/I or inhibiting it in D/D would most likely push you towards more of an I/D type.
Since estrogen is a dose-dependent activator of the RAS, it not only increases muscle strength and hypertrophy, it also helps determine to a large degree how much Type I or Type II fiber a certain muscle group has. Type II muscle fibers grow faster and bigger than Type II fibers and promote more explosive strength, while Type I fibers are well vascularized, grow slowly, but are more fit for longer, lower intensity tasks. By inhibiting estrogen, we may therefore be slowing our muscle gains, both short term, but especially long term.
These findings vindicate a number of theories I have defended for a long time. First and foremost that estrogen is indeed a dose-dependent anabolic steroid, especially in combination with androgens, in supra-physiological doses, such as seen with several high-estrogenic drugs. For a very long time we have known that drugs with extremely poor androgenic qualities like oxymetholone and methandrostenolone are very strong anabolics.
Many have denied the role of estrogen in this, instead sinning against ockham's razor and finding all sorts of far-fetched theories. We first dismissed the growth as being mostly water. A lot of it was, since RAS increases water retention, but obviously not all mass gained could be explained by water. Then some people attempted to explain it by claiming it was the result of more androgenic by-products.
But no by-product had sufficient androgenic effects, or was expressed to a large enough degree to explain why these drugs performed as good as less estrogenic drugs, sometimes outperforming them despite imminently lower androgenic binding. Following ockham's razor, the logical conclusion was that the higher degree of anabolism was a result of their higher degree of estrogen receptor activation, either direct (oxymetholone) or indirect via aromatization to potent estrogens (methandrostenolone).
Cattle ranchers have known this for a long time. Cattle implants contain a certain amount of estradiol, which not only improves the total amount of muscle mass, but also the quality of the meat. More Type II fibers equates more meat, and more usable quality meat since it is less vascularized.
The downsides are however that we again corroborate the fact that being good at predominantly endurance activities, rules out being extremely good at building muscle mass and vice versa. Through activation of RAS, local and systemic, estrogen would reduce aerobic capacity and Type I fiber formation in favour of Type II muscle. It would also increase blood pressure and water retention.
The same holds true the other way around, endurance activity may very well lower estrogen, since regular exercise has been shown to lower blood pressure and favour Type I muscle growth. The implications of that, would once again be huge, since it puts a negative aspect on doing cardio during bulking phases.
The take home message however is that estrogen is indeed a potent anabolic aid, especially in combination with androgens, and that this effect is very much dose-responsive and thus holds up in higher, supraphysiological doses. Together with a previously discussed item in this column, regarding increased estrogenic problems after the use of anti-estrogenic drugs, this seriously questions the importance some bodybuilders attach to anti-estrogens.
Clearly the uneducated use of anti-estrogenic drugs needs some re-examination, and bodybuilders need to see that estrogen can not only be a major contributor to growth, but not using anti-estrogens will often prevent many of the problems their use supposedly cures. So unless you are extremely prone to estrogenic side-effects, I would seriously think twice about incorporating potent anti-estrogenic drugs during the course of a steroid or prohormone cycle.
References
Wade CB, Robinson S, Shapiro RA, Dorsa DM. Estrogen receptor (ER)alpha and ERbeta exhibit unique pharmacologic properties when coupled to activation of the mitogen-activated protein kinase pathway. Endocrinology. 2001 Jun;142(6):2336-42.
Calkin AC, Sudhir K, Honisett S, Williams MR, Dawood T, Komesaroff PA. Rapid potentiation of endothelium-dependent vasodilation by estradiol in postmenopausal women is mediated via cyclooxygenase 2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Nov;87(11):5072-5.
Jones A, Woods R. Skeletal muscle RAS and exercise performance. Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2003 Jun;35(6):855-66.
bicepts101
New member
heres some info on test:
The Relevance Of Testosterone During Bulking
We all know that testosterone is crucial in muscle growth. It directly increases protein synthesis by being a promoter of transcription when it binds the nuclear androgen receptor, supports proliferation, differentiation and fusion of satellite cells by increasing calcium influx and activating calcineurin and it promotes the local production of growth factors like IGF-I. testosterone may however also be relevant to us in determining the type of weight gained during bulking.
One study examined the effect of testosterone on pluripotent stem cells. These stem cells can develop into either pre-adipocytes or muscle satellite cells. Testosterone not only inhibited the formation of pre-adipocytes, but also the proliferation and differentiation of existing pre-adipocytes, while promoting the transformation of the pluripotent stem cells to muscle satellite cells.
This indicates a clear long term benefit for elevated testosterone levels as well, since they increase the number of cells that can potentially donate nuclei to the muscles, thereby increasing androgen receptor density and the effect of testosterone on promoting transcription of DNA.
This is synergistic with testosterone's effect on calcineurin activity, which causes the cells to proliferate (via NFAT2 activation) and differentiate into myoblasts (via NFAT3 activation) as well as fuse with existing myotubes (via NFAT2 related paracrine IL-4 release).
References
Bhasin S, Taylor WE, Singh R, Artaza J, Sinha-Hikim I, Jasuja R, Choi H, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF.
The mechanisms of androgen effects on body composition: Mesenchymal pluripotent cell as the target of androgen action.
Journal of Gerontology, medical sciences 2003, (58A) 12: 1103-1110.
The Relevance Of Testosterone During Bulking
We all know that testosterone is crucial in muscle growth. It directly increases protein synthesis by being a promoter of transcription when it binds the nuclear androgen receptor, supports proliferation, differentiation and fusion of satellite cells by increasing calcium influx and activating calcineurin and it promotes the local production of growth factors like IGF-I. testosterone may however also be relevant to us in determining the type of weight gained during bulking.
One study examined the effect of testosterone on pluripotent stem cells. These stem cells can develop into either pre-adipocytes or muscle satellite cells. Testosterone not only inhibited the formation of pre-adipocytes, but also the proliferation and differentiation of existing pre-adipocytes, while promoting the transformation of the pluripotent stem cells to muscle satellite cells.
This indicates a clear long term benefit for elevated testosterone levels as well, since they increase the number of cells that can potentially donate nuclei to the muscles, thereby increasing androgen receptor density and the effect of testosterone on promoting transcription of DNA.
This is synergistic with testosterone's effect on calcineurin activity, which causes the cells to proliferate (via NFAT2 activation) and differentiate into myoblasts (via NFAT3 activation) as well as fuse with existing myotubes (via NFAT2 related paracrine IL-4 release).
References
Bhasin S, Taylor WE, Singh R, Artaza J, Sinha-Hikim I, Jasuja R, Choi H, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF.
The mechanisms of androgen effects on body composition: Mesenchymal pluripotent cell as the target of androgen action.
Journal of Gerontology, medical sciences 2003, (58A) 12: 1103-1110.
bicepts101
New member
thing is, gaining 10lbs of mass on just one compound and that compound being anavar, would be difficult to any user with any degree of advanced experience. also its very dose dependant and it depends on for how long.....sure maybe 100mg ed for 16 weeks may yeild ten lbs on someone that is 210-220 i dont know....
diet IS i huge factor in bodybuilding, there is NO secrect to that. lets not forget that steroids DO work. are they magic? NO. is one compound going to yeild more mass than another? ABSOLUTLY! otherwise everyone would be using the cheapest compound. now, it will go from individual to individual but the bottom line here is, steroids do more than the so called "10%" all these people preach here...lets get our head out of asses people
diet IS i huge factor in bodybuilding, there is NO secrect to that. lets not forget that steroids DO work. are they magic? NO. is one compound going to yeild more mass than another? ABSOLUTLY! otherwise everyone would be using the cheapest compound. now, it will go from individual to individual but the bottom line here is, steroids do more than the so called "10%" all these people preach here...lets get our head out of asses people
bicepts101
New member
Outtlaw said:
exactly and most of the answer is above.
FknKnuckleHd
New member
love the winny....I'm taking qv var for the first time....its only been a week.
No one is going to answer my question???
bicepts101
New member
Carth said:
the answer to this, is subject to the individual....but yes i have heard that when only running var. that doesnt mean it will happen to u
bicepts101 said:
Well a few months back I was running Test, EQ and Var. And my manhood kindof sortof wanted to go baby on me. If you know what I mean. Radar told me that Var does that shit to some.
kellygirl said:
Hi Girl.....I think some of these guys forgot they were responding to a womens question, lol. I am running growth and var right now with the most amazing results you could imagine. I have not considered anything else because this combination for me anyway ROCKS! I run 15 mg of var this time but have gone up as high as 40 mg. I lost 65 lbs before I started anything and was so weak it was funny, I am not meaning to brag but I am ripped and strong as hell. Well I guess that depends on who you are comparing to obviously. The var kicks in for me in about 7 to 10 days, if you want to talk private message me, I think my husband gave you the info already. One more thing, before I started the GH and var this time I had my blood work done mainly to test my liver and everything was great.
N
Similar threads
Suspended
BACK IN STOCK - tremendous savings
