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Ai's and SERMS during cycle. Do not use them unless you need them.

needtogetaas

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Can estrogen work to augment muscle growth? Is this hormone always unwanted when we are taking anabolic steroids? Anecdotal reports from athletes suggest that the use of estrogen maintenance drugs such as tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) or aminoglutethimide (anti-aromatase) may slightly hinder muscle mass gains during steroid therapy. An explanation or even clarification for this observation has not been easy to come by. Here I would like to take a look at the comparative effectiveness of certain aromatizable and non-aromatizable drugs, as well as the possible mechanism in which estrogen can play a beneficial role to the athlete.

The Androgen Receptor
All anabolic/androgenic steroids promote muscle growth primarily via the cellular androgen receptor (abbreviated as AR in this article). The steroid attaches to and activates the androgen receptor, which ultimately gives the cell an order to increase protein synthesis. This process is well understood. But it has been suggested that other mechanisms may foster muscle growth during steroid therapy as well, which lie outside of the androgen receptor. One way this is evidenced is by the fact that steroids displaying a high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue do not always promote an equally high level of muscle growth. In other words, anabolic potency does not always correspond perfectly to receptor affinity. Clearly there are some disparities that lead into question whether or not the androgen receptor is the only thing at work concerning growth.

Testosterone, Nandrolone and Methenolone
Testosterone is without question one of the most effective steroids for building muscle mass available to athletes. However it does not have the highest affinity for the androgen receptor compared to some other steroids. For example, it has been shown that by eliminating the 19-methyl group (nandrolone) the affinity of the steroid for the androgen receptor is greatly enhanced. Nandrolone thus displays approximately 2-3 times greater affinity for the androgen receptor compared to testosterone, yet its ability to promote muscle growth seems to be considerably lower than testosterone at an equal dosage. One discussed possibility for this occurrence is the reduced androgenic potency of nandrolone. While testosterone converts to the more active steroid dihydrotestosterone (3-4 times greater AR affinity) upon interaction with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in various androgenic target tissues such as the skin, scalp, prostate, CNS and liver, nandrolone drops to a third of its original potency by converting to the weak steroid dihydronandrolone[ii]. However this action is very site specific, and in muscle tissue nandrolone dominates as the active form of the steroid. Therefore this explanation may not suffice.

Nandrolone also differs from testosterone in its ability to be converted by the aromatase enzyme to estradiol (an active estrogen). In comparison, nandrolone aromatizes at approximately 20% of the rate testosterone does, and as such is not known as a very estrogenic steroid. It is likewise favored when reduced estrogenic side effects such as water retention, fat deposition and gynecomastia are desired. However athletes know that there is a trade off with the reduced tendency for nandrolone to promote side effects, in that it is a less anabolic steroid. With its known high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue, could this suggest that estrogen may also be a key mediator of muscle growth?

When we look at Primobolan® (methenolone) we see a similar trend. Methenolone is at least as good a binder of the androgen receptor as testosterone. By some accounts it is on par with nandrolone[iii]. However it is known to be much weaker than both steroids at promoting muscle growth. We know that methenolone does not interact with 5-alpha reductase, and as such its affinity for the AR does not increase or decrease in androgen target tissues. This would logically seem like a more favorable trait for anabolism over the weakening we see with nandrolone. However methenolone is a markedly weaker anabolic, and requires relatively high doses to promote growth. This also brings into question the role of 5-alpha reductase in promoting an anabolic state. Perhaps the fact that Primobolan® is a non-aromatizable steroid is more relevant.

Estrogen and GH/IGF-1
To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin C) is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels[iv]. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen[v]. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels[vi]. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action[vii]. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation[viii] [ix]. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

What does this all mean?
It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.
 
small pricde to pay for the reduction of estrogenic side effects. I hate moon fuck face. It's been over a year since I've been on anything and it's like wow, you actually have a clearly defineable jaw line and cheekbones. :whatever:

why are SERMS included in the thread title though? I didn't see them mentioned in the article. They have nothing to do with estrogen, right?
 
small pricde to pay for the reduction of estrogenic side effects. I hate moon fuck face. It's been over a year since I've been on anything and it's like wow, you actually have a clearly defineable jaw line and cheekbones. :whatever:

why are SERMS included in the thread title though? I didn't see them mentioned in the article. They have nothing to do with estrogen, right?

Of course they have a lot to do with estrogen. Lots of people still use nolvadex during cycle to try and clear up the (moon face) Thats even worse then using an Ai if you ask me.


lol& moon fuck face.
 
Of course they have a lot to do with estrogen. Lots of people still use nolvadex during cycle to try and clear up the (moon face) Thats even worse then using an Ai if you ask me.


lol& moon fuck face.



brainfart needto, I was thinking of "SARMS". I forgot nolva was a serm.
 
lol& moon fuck face.




it's not a game..........like I'm taking some business classes now and I'm already tickling two 20 and 21 year old gyneees. Can't do that with silverback face........it's just not a game. Plus it's nice to see abs again......that also gets you a look at some v'jeen. :whatever:











:lmao:
 
Well, I think the only time you should use nolvadex is if you're a woman with breast cancer.

I also think you shouldn;t use HCG until you need it.

If you're using over 500 mgs of test a little dex can't hurt, but I mean A LITTLE -- like a 1/4 tab every 3 days.
 
Its about time someone put this thread up:D:D:D

I love seeing first time posters with their first time cycle all lined up like
wk 1-10 test 400mg wk
a-dex .5mg ed or eod

WTF!!!

Unfortunatley for me my first cycle was 1997 or 1998(didnt join here til 2001). I was told run 10mg of nolva ED with my sustanon.

I feel fortunate that I dont need an AI for gyno. Or at least I havnt yet.
 
Even if you don't use an AI during a cycle because you aren't prone to any estrogen side effects, isn't that still bad because you will be "losing" the testosterone you are injecting due to the body's negative feedback loop- testosterone binds to the aromatase and converts to estrogen. Even something as low as 250mg a week of testosterone is still way above the natural tesotosterone production limit and so even at low doses injected your body will want to maintain the status quo and that means turning that testosterone to estrogen. I agree we shouldn't wipe out all estrogen levels (like with using letro improperly), but wouldn't you think that even if you aren't prone to estrogen side effects, an AI still should mandatory because you would want to "protect" the testosterone you are injecting. I mean, even though the article points out that estrogen may play a role in building muscle, i don't think that warrants "losing" the testosterone you are injecting in the first place in favor of 'more' estrogen..
 
Well, I think the only time you should use nolvadex is if you're a woman with breast cancer.

I also think you shouldn;t use HCG until you need it.

If you're using over 500 mgs of test a little dex can't hurt, but I mean A LITTLE -- like a 1/4 tab every 3 days.


Then same should apply towards HCG since it is infact a female hormone.
 
Even if you don't use an AI during a cycle because you aren't prone to any estrogen side effects, isn't that still bad because you will be "losing" the testosterone you are injecting due to the body's negative feedback loop- testosterone binds to the aromatase and converts to estrogen. Even something as low as 250mg a week of testosterone is still way above the natural tesotosterone production limit and so even at low doses injected your body will want to maintain the status quo and that means turning that testosterone to estrogen. I agree we shouldn't wipe out all estrogen levels (like with using letro improperly), but wouldn't you think that even if you aren't prone to estrogen side effects, an AI still should mandatory because you would want to "protect" the testosterone you are injecting. I mean, even though the article points out that estrogen may play a role in building muscle, i don't think that warrants "losing" the testosterone you are injecting in the first place in favor of 'more' estrogen..
Yes If you are talking about long ass cycles or staying on hrt maybe. If you wanted to make the most of your test then lowering shbg would be better then lowering estrogen anyway. Take some proviron or some unleashed during cycle. Or something else that lowers shbg.

If your body is turning to much of the test into estrogen then its going to show. You are going to get bloated or get gyno. And then Of course its time for the Ai's.

I think maybe its an even better Idea to use an Ai at the end of a cycle and threw pct. But to jump right on it from that start is not the best Idea.
 
When the body detects high testosterone levels through AAS, does the body then increase output of aromatase enzymes as part of the negative feedback loop in order to increase aromatase activity? Could someone confirm if yes or no. I was under the impression that it did, and if so, then it would seem that Aromatase inhibition via an anti-aromatase would be necessary due to the body's extra output of aromatase enzymes.
 
Bloating is unhealthy folks.. if you do a lot of cycles over time plan on developing health problems from the rapid weight gain/loss and all the havoc that enhanced BP can cause. ie. kidney problems yay!
 
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i have to confess that that was the first time i ever read a thread like this. i havent bothered learning to much of ais and things like that, i have just taken stuff from here and there and put together my cycle (which i havent done yet)

ill have to read this a couple more times to understand it fully but this was great.
my first cycle will be 400-450 g of test, ill do 9-10 weeks.
at first i was gonna do 0,25 a dex e3d but now i think ill wait and see if i need it, and if the bloat comes ill take some til it goes away.

nelson, u said that u didnt think it was good to start the hcg if u really needed it....is the 250ius, 2 times a week during cycle old now?
 
i have to confess that that was the first time i ever read a thread like this. i havent bothered learning to much of ais and things like that, i have just taken stuff from here and there and put together my cycle (which i havent done yet)

ill have to read this a couple more times to understand it fully but this was great.
my first cycle will be 400-450 g of test, ill do 9-10 weeks.
at first i was gonna do 0,25 a dex e3d but now i think ill wait and see if i need it, and if the bloat comes ill take some til it goes away.

nelson, u said that u didnt think it was good to start the hcg if u really needed it....is the 250ius, 2 times a week during cycle old now?
I think using hcg on cycles longer then 8 weeks or more is a good way to go.
 
IMHO the use of AI's on a cycle is completely dose dependent. I tend to like to begin a androgen heavy cycle with something like clomid or nolvadex taken in relatively high doses just to "block" estrogenic receptor sites. This is due to the fact that estrogen has a very positive effect on releasing IGF-1 and GH from the liver. I normally wont do this for any longer than 2-3 weeks before i layer in A-dex to help begin the estrogenic clearing process as I change to less androgenic, more anabolic AAS.


just my .02

:coffee:
 
IMHO the use of AI's on a cycle is completely dose dependent. I tend to like to begin a androgen heavy cycle with something like clomid or nolvadex taken in relatively high doses just to "block" estrogenic receptor sites. This is due to the fact that estrogen has a very positive effect on releasing IGF-1 and GH from the liver. I normally wont do this for any longer than 2-3 weeks before i layer in A-dex to help begin the estrogenic clearing process as I change to less androgenic, more anabolic AAS.


just my .02

:coffee:
I'll get back to this but IMO it sounds pretty wrong to me.... Estrogen or at least nolvadex has a very negative effect on IGF/gh bro.. Estrogen is a signal in your liver to lower the production of IGF-1 not raise it...

Again I am pretty sure on this but I will make sure.
 
My original thread about this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...ar-cutting-creatine-660316-2.html#post8930706


You have all the right to your opinion, but running aromatizing steroids without an AI is a recipe for serious health problems, including cancer. It's medically proven that nasty estrogenic side effects such as gynecomastia (bitch tits), hypertension (high blood pressure), fat gains, benign prostatic hyperplasia (increased prostate size which can lead to cancer) and a myriad of other problems are associated with high estrogen levels. While a small percentage of steroid users has less estrogen receptors in the body (which means less chances of side effects like gyno), it doesn't mean your serum estrogen levels are not high during a cycle. Aromatization is still happening and your body is still overall effected by high estrogen levels, which can lead to serious health problems.

While I agree that having Letrozole on hand during each cycle, in case of gynecomastia, is feasible; another AI such as Arimidex or Aromasin should be used throughout the cycle in this case. (usage of aromatizing compounds)
 
I would NEVER use Steroids without a proper AI. Not olny do most of the side effects from Steroid use come from high Estrogen, but I rather not have to go under the knife because of Gyno.

Even those who are not prone to gyno have some of the worst mood altering effects from high Estrogen. Any of you guys can ask a guy like OMEGA about the drawbacks of high Estrogen levels affecting your brain during cycle.

Just because you are are not getting gyno or bloated it does not mean your blood is not coursing with massive amount of Estrogen and Estradial hormones which will wreck havoc on your bodilyfuctions...
 
On the same token... Abusing AI during cyle and even PCT is a very serious problem, almost as serious as not taking any. Abnormally low Estrogen levels can lead to different problem like erectile disfuntion and proness to muscle tears.

I would NEVER use Steroids without a proper AI. Not olny do most of the side effects from Steroid use come from high Estrogen, but I rather not have to go under the knife because of Gyno.

Even those who are not prone to gyno have some of the worst mood altering effects from high Estrogen. Any of you guys can ask a guy like OMEGA about the drawbacks of high Estrogen levels affecting your brain during cycle.

Just because you are are not getting gyno or bloated it does not mean your blood is not coursing with massive amount of Estrogen and Estradial hormones which will wreck havoc on your bodilyfuctions...
 
Ok guys now I am really confused. All the information I have read up until this thread has recommended an AI while on cycle. Now the Gurus I listen to on here, like Needto and the like are saying not needed? WTF? Do I need this Armidex while on cycle or not?
 
Great discussion.

Lowering you estrogen levels can also impair your immune system.

It can also cause joint pain or injuries. My knees ache when I get too dry from adex or letrozole.
 
a variety of ai's and serms along with a knowlege of what they do and how to identify the need for them and also having an accurate dosing protocol is a must before you start a cycle. as with everytrhing there are bad effects that come with the good so any over usage of these drugs would add nothing to the good effects, it would only add to the bad.
 
I do 2-3 gram cycles and have never needed an ai. so I get a little bloating. big deal.


You my friend, are one in a million. I wonder what happens to all that excess estrogen being generated in your body from 3 gram cycles.. you piss it out? lol.
 
You my friend, are one in a million. I wonder what happens to all that excess estrogen being generated in your body from 3 gram cycles.. you piss it out? lol.

it all just gets to confusing...the way seems to be with ais and pct etc ...YOU MUST DO THIS.... several months later ON the same topic you must do now, has changed to, YOU MUST NOT DO THIS.WHEN IS THERE GOING TO BE A SET WAY..i was told by experienced vets here to take 0.5 adex eod thruout my 12 weeker of 500mg test e...now im hearing i shouldnt have bothered.this site is the best on the net cos of all the trash i think is talked on a lot of the other sites.can all you mods and vets have a get to gether and once and for all come up with sum definitive answers for us lessers.,thank you
 
it all just gets to confusing...the way seems to be with ais and pct etc ...YOU MUST DO THIS.... several months later ON the same topic you must do now, has changed to, YOU MUST NOT DO THIS.WHEN IS THERE GOING TO BE A SET WAY..i was told by experienced vets here to take 0.5 adex eod thruout my 12 weeker of 500mg test e...now im hearing i shouldnt have bothered.this site is the best on the net cos of all the trash i think is talked on a lot of the other sites.can all you mods and vets have a get to gether and once and for all come up with sum definitive answers for us lessers.,thank you

You shouldn't need an ai unless you suspect gyno or bloating in the nipple, steroids need some estrogen for them to work properly adding them during a cycle when they're not needed inhibits your gains.how much? well alot of factors come into play here,the compound ran,the concentration,the persons sensivity to gyno.


RADAR
 
Is it too late to start using something like Adex, or Letro when you start noticing puffy Nipples... etc?
Or a better question, how quickly do these (Adex & letro) drugs start working?
 
Well, I think the only time you should use nolvadex is if you're a woman with breast cancer.

I also think you shouldn;t use HCG until you need it.

If you're using over 500 mgs of test a little dex can't hurt, but I mean A LITTLE -- like a 1/4 tab every 3 days.

100% agreed
 
Great discussion.

Lowering you estrogen levels can also impair your immune system.

It can also cause joint pain or injuries. My knees ache when I get too dry from adex or letrozole.

And Brain function As BRR reminded me.

I totally forgot about that
 
Is it too late to start using something like Adex, or Letro when you start noticing puffy Nipples... etc?
Or a better question, how quickly do these (Adex & letro) drugs start working?

Aromasen is choice

will take 2-5 days to resolve the issue if at a low level
 
You shouldn't need an ai unless you suspect gyno or bloating in the nipple, steroids need some estrogen for them to work properly adding them during a cycle when they're not needed inhibits your gains.how much? well alot of factors come into play here,the compound ran,the concentration,the persons sensivity to gyno.


RADAR

so in other words i was misinformed when told to take it 0.5 eod?im 42 .with low natty test .is this a factor?
 
Are you on HRT????


RADAR

no not on hrt..tho my last blood test off cycle 6 months ago came bACK AT ONLY 11.2,,,,normal range in uk is 9-28...think thats bout 330 in your numbers,.doc said i was ok as it was within range.as i have already stated in a previous thread,i have done 3 cycles of 500mg test e ,and dbol kicker.from 10-16 weekers.each time i have gained 12-16 lbs and lose it all after pct within a few wks.this is probably down to my low natty levels i think .? im tempted to self administer trt at 250mg sust e2wks.and cycle higher few times yr in between>i am 42 in feb.
 
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