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when did these high doses become the right thing?

Just as a pro bodybuilder's structure and response to training is genetically mediated, so is their response to drugs. You will probably find a bell shaped curve in the general population in terms of response to a certain dose of aas. It's difficult to give a carved in stone optimum dose. We're dealing with a vast range of physiological responses to aas on this board. Compound that factor with varying responses to training and dieting and training and dieting practices that vary in effectiveness and you have bodybuilding results that span across a vast continuum. We can debate how much training constitutes overtraining as overtraining ceases gains. We can debate how many calories constitutes overeating as overeating will make us gain fat. An item difficult to debate is overdrugging. Although there is a point of diminishing returns with aas you still get further gains as you increase your dosages.
 
Excellent reply


Nelson Montana said:
The reason the stories have changed is clearly for one reason -- internet message boards. And the proliferation of self appointed experts with no cred beyond posting on message boards.

I've never spoken to Arnold but I've spoken to guys who trained with him. And I was around when steroids were legal and the use was very much in the open. I've sat across from Dan Duchaine as he spoke about coaching pro bodybuilders for major contests. I've spoken to many pros who were quite candid about their use and I can tell you two things with all certainly.

One: None of the guys back in the 60's and 70's ever took more than a gram a week.

And two: There are even pros today that don't take as much as most of the guys on this board.

I know no one wants to admit it because then they'd have to admit how much they suck. Too many people want to believe the difference between greatness is a matter of the drugs because, lets face it, they're a big factor. But they're only one factor. Genetics, plus the genetics for the drugs themelsves are HUGE factors. Arnold responded to d-bol in an amazing way. But the biggest factor was the training. Most guys don't get close to training at the intensity of the old timers. Sorry. Those guys were obessed.

Because of the availability of the drugs and a fellow audience with whom to respond instantly, it's only natural that more and more people are going to push the envelope. After a while a gram a week is commonplace and no one can comprehend making gains with less. When people say things like "those old guys were on year round" or "they took more than they admit to" ...they simply do not know what they're talking about. I was there.

Another thing no one wants to admit was that the old timers were coming from a "health" perspective. They treated the stuff with respect. Sure, by the 70's that started to change among the hardcore guys but keep something else in mind; these were DRUGS and as far as anyone knew, there were dangers involved. It takes time for more and more people to see how far they can go. Don Howorth (Mr. America) told me that when he took 20 mgs of d-bol he was ecstatic at the progress he made! That's because he busted his ass for years fighting for every ounce of muscle he had. Too many young guys today simply do not understand that... and never will.

I've often made the point that it isn't so much the biggest guy who knows the most, but the guy who makes the most progress. Who do you think knows more about building muscle, some guy who does a gram of week and weighs 190 pounds or some guy who started at 150 and got to 190, drug free? On the boards....it doesn't matter. People want the easy answer and they're more likely to ask the guy who does the gram a week for advice.

Arnold was known for his excessive drug use. He shot 100mgs of Primo a day along with 50 mgs of d-bol and was considered a renegade! Dan Duchaine told me Dorian liked to use just testosterone and did a gram a week which, believe it or not, was considered "high" back in 1990.

If higher dosages were the answer guys on this board would be monsters. Although some bros look real good, I also see a lot of pics of guys who look like any average Joe who works out. Sometimes not even that. And they're juicing harder than Dorian did. Think about that.

I know my rant will not change what anyone will do, nor is it meant to. My approach to steroids is their optimal usage as an adjunct to natural training. In that regard, yes, I know my sh*t. I have to laugh when I see guys giving cocksure advice on stuff on which they have no clue. And all these questions about which stack is better and what to use as a "cutter" ( which are jokes IMO) are all a bunch of self (and shared) delusion in an effort to think oneself knowledgable. For the most part, a gram is a gram. Ever do a free standing hack squat? Pay your dues sonny.

Yep, it's a differant world and I accept it. And I'm all for civil liberties so if want to take 10 grams a week in order to look good on the beach, be my guest. But don't try to concvice me that it's the only way.

And don't try to rewrite history.











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chazk said:
jesus 10 grams of steroids when most steroids back then were 250 cc max.
thats 40'cc of roids a week...=13 3cc syrings = damn near 6 cc a day
I'm supposed to believe yates shoved 40cc of oil a week in his body for months on end and never came off.
what a fucking joke

Oh yeah? I totally know for a fact that Ronnie averaged around 25 grams per week, and anyone that disagrees this fact is either ignorant or a liar, 'cause I totally know this for a fact and stuff. Did I mention that this is absolutely, totally true? 'Cause it is. Don't even bother trying to argue this fact with me, 'cause I will reply to any contrary posts with the fact that I know this is the truth and you newbies don't know what you're talking about 'cause I totally know this factual truth so STFU 'cause I know I'm right because this is the truth.

Hope that helps!!!1
 
samoth said:
Oh yeah? I totally know for a fact that Ronnie averaged around 25 grams per week, and anyone that disagrees this fact is either ignorant or a liar, 'cause I totally know this for a fact and stuff. Did I mention that this is absolutely, totally true? 'Cause it is. Don't even bother trying to argue this fact with me, 'cause I will reply to any contrary posts with the fact that I know this is the truth and you newbies don't know what you're talking about 'cause I totally know this factual truth so STFU 'cause I know I'm right because this is the truth.

Hope that helps!!!1

It's funny how everyones seems to know about how much they took when referring to the low end but when someone suggests that they ran redicuoulsy high dosages it is questioned how they no that.
I personally have no idea what pros ran or run and don't try to pretend that I do.
 
srf173 said:
It's funny how everyones seems to know about how much they took when referring to the low end but when someone suggests that they ran redicuoulsy high dosages it is questioned how they no that.
I personally have no idea what pros ran or run and don't try to pretend that I do.

It's even more funny how people seem to know what people they've never met before took, lol.

Far too many things are assumed on the boards, just because someone else mentioned it...
 
samoth said:
It's even more funny how people seem to know what people they've never met before took, lol.

Far too many things are assumed on the boards, just because someone else mentioned it...

Ya, hows that work.
I don't know how people think they know what Arnie and them took and how much Jay and Ronnie take. I'm sure there are very few that are privelaged to this information. People can speculate at best.
 
Ever since I first got in this board I have ranting and advising against the INSANE DOSES being used. I really feal it is because of ug's the prices have dropped so low. I used to pay 125.00 for 20mls of 50mg winni and now there is a UG selling 50ml bottles for 85.00. 5 years ago when I was a juice monkey and huge ( to me 235lbs 8% BF ) I would start my cycles at around 600mgs work up to 1000 and then come off and repeat. You are not going to get three times the growth from 800mgs to 2400mgs you will get way more side effects and your wallet will get smaller. I have some friends that do sauce and get practically no gains because they dont eat right. I have said many times on here cut your doses in half and double your calories. I just did my first cycle in 5 years and I got up to 245 I was bloated and pudgy 13-14%bf but I was only taking 500mgs of cyp a week and thats it! I honestly wished I would have taken only 350-400. I am gonna stop here cuz I could bitch all night. i know a pro who has placed in the top 5 at the olympia and he says there some pros that take outragous doses but most of them use alot less than people think. They stay on the majority of the time but the overall doses are kept reasonable. No disrspect to 52 21 30 but I remember reading a post where he said 1300mgs a week was a relatively low dose if thats low what the fuck is high ? I am getting reading for an npc show june 30th and I am currently taking 100mgs of decca, 100mgs of tren,100mgs of masteron every 4 days and thats it. I am going to add in some other stuff but I will never go over a 1 gram a week its just not needed and I hope I win the overall to prove it. Its genetics,knowledge and dedication that makes a champion the drugs just make it fair were all on juice may the best man win. Thats why I love nontested shows. Anyway back to my point lower doses and increase your calories, training intensity,and rest. and you wont even notice the lower dose !
 
Some spot on (and funny) responses.

A point that bears repeating is the caloric intake. When you're on gear and in an anabolic state your body processes food differently. It turns amino acids into muscle and nutrients into strength and glycogen into increased blood volume. To deprive it of every calorie you can force in to your face is a waste. This is why I don't like "cutters". They don't make the best use of the drugs. Get lean, then roid.

Another imperitive point is the overstating of catabolism. People take gear to avoid it while dieting and doing lots of cardio. Sure, steroids prevent catabolism, but it really worth using drugs to save a few ounces of muscle when it can be building POUNDS of it? Hell, food, sleep and supps will prevent most catabolism. Don't be such a bunch of pussies.

I also think guys are way too concerned with overtraining.

Jack LaLanne (still going strong at 90 something) told me that he believed there was no such thing as overtraining.

Arnold would do squats all day without counting reps or sets.

Zabo Kosewski would do sit ups for an hour straight, then do another hour of leg raises.

Sergio worked a 10 hour day as a factory worker and then hit the gym for two hours. Think he was concerned with "catabolism?"

Chuck Sipes did 3 hour workouts and as a hobby likes to chop down trees.

These guys were ANIMALS!

Don Howorth said he'd do 40 sets of bench presses. (That's right -- FORTY). Then he'd play ball at the beach and maybe grab a workout at night. Now he admits that was overkill but it's best to err on the side of overtraining than undertraining if you want to see how big you can grow.



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