Ross, important question for you!

[Ross]

you calling my nads liars? lol


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1997 Feb;46(2):209-16.

Effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone treatment on the pituitary-testicular and GH axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty.

Crowne EC, Wallace WH, Moore C, Mitchell R, Robertson WH, Holly JM, Shalet SM.
Department of Endocrinology, Christie Hospital Trust, Manchester, UK.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low dose oxandrolone and testosterone on the pituitary-testicular and GH-IGF-I axes. DESIGN: Prospective double-blind placebo-controlled trial. PATIENTS: Sixteen boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP) with testicular volumes 4-6 ml were randomized to 3 months treatment: Group 1 (n = 5), daily placebo: Group 2 (n = 5), 2.5 mg oxandrolone daily or Group 3 (n = 6), 50 mg testosterone monthly intramuscular injections with assessment (growth, pubertal development and overnight hormone profiles) at 0, 3, 6 and 12 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: LH and GH profiles (15-minute samples) were analysed by peak detection (Pulsar), Fourier transformation and autocorrelation. Testosterone levels were measured hourly and insulin, SHBG, IGF-I, and IGFBP-3 levels at 0800 h. Statistical analysis was by multivariate analysis of variance for repeated measures. RESULTS: LH and testosterone parameters increased significantly with time in all 16 (LH AUC, P < 0.001; peak amplitude, P = 0.02; number of peaks, P = 0.02; testosterone AUC, P = 0.02; morning testosterone, P = 0.002). In Group 2, however, LH and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months followed by a rebound increase at 6 and 12 months. SHBG levels were markedly reduced at 3 months (P = 0.006) and a wider range of dominant GH frequencies was present although GH AUC was not increased until 6 months, with an increase in GH pulse frequency but not amplitude. IGF-I levels were increased at both 3 and 12 months. In Group 3, pituitary-testicular suppression was not apparent, but GH levels increased with an increase in GH amplitude at 3 and 12 months. CONCLUSION: Oxandrolone transiently suppressed the pituitary-testicular axis and altered GH pulsatility. Testosterone increased GH via amplitude modulation.
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EXACLTY!! Oxandrolone does not SHUTDOWN the HPTA, it DOES reduce endogenous testosterone production, obviously.

TRENBOLONE and DECA will SHUTDOWN the HPTA, Oxandrolone and Primo will NOT.*

 

[Harleymarleybone]

what other AAS are you suggesting that is "structurally and functionally similar enough to test" that you wouldn't need TEST? if you say DHT-derivitatves such as proviron and masteron, which are more androgenic than test (but not quite as anabolic), well who bases their cycles on just proviron or masteron?

plus, try telling anyone who suffers from deca-dick or tren-dick that they don't need test.... the response won't be pretty!

I thought the issue is what you can do, not what people actually base their cycles on, since what they actually base their cycles on might itself be the premise that is being questioned- that you always need test.

The fact that you may need test with nandrolones does not contradict what I said about some AAS. Also, I have done deca with only 100 mg/week (TRT dose) and was fine.

 

[Mavafanculo]

EXACLTY!! Oxandrolone does not SHUTDOWN the HPTA, it DOES reduce endogenous testosterone production, obviously.

TRENBOLONE and DECA will SHUTDOWN the HPTA, Oxandrolone and Primo will NOT.*

other than that mrs lincoln how was the play?

if you're arguing a distinction between lowered LH , lowered endogenous test, pituitery suppression and hpta suppression you'll have to elaborate. If there is a distinction, its a distinction without a difference.


from the study (group 2 is the OX group):

In Group 2, however, LH and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months

this is the clinical end result of hpta suppression.

 

[Ross]

other than that mrs lincoln how was the play?

if you're arguing a distinction between lowered LH , lowered endogenous test, pituitery suppression and hpta suppression you'll have to elaborate. If there is a distinction, its a distinction without a difference.

from the study (group 2 is the OX group):
In Group 2, however, LH and testosterone parameters decreased at 3 months

We can see from the chart above that a simgle 100mg injection of Deca caused a total (100%) reduction of natural testosterone levels, and it took about a month to return those testosterone levels to baseline! All from 100mgs of Deca!

 

[Mavafanculo]

We can see from the chart above that a simgle 100mg injection of Deca caused a total (100%) reduction of natural testosterone levels, and it took about a month to return those testosterone levels to baseline! All from 100mgs of Deca!

this goes to deca being very suppressive - I agree.

but you asserted that var was NOT suppressive, and the study above shows that it is. that was my point - not relative suppressivity. I agree that deca does the deed faster and at lower doses.

 

[gjohnson5]

Wow , taking charts from AR are we?
What study or journal did that chart come from?

Also we'd need anavar diagrammed as well in it

But we'd need a longer term one of these to see if testosterone is totally shutdown. At this point this is a semantic arguement as to the meaning of "HPTA supression" If this dose was tripled would the supression triple? Unfortunately the boys liver would be hurt severly in the process...

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/co...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Serum OX concentrations on day 3 (1.9 ± 0.4 ng/dL) and day 5 (2.2 ± 0.3 ng/dL) of OX administration, measured 10 h after each evening’s oral dose (2100 h), remained steady. However, by 18 h posttreatment on day 5, serum OX levels were markedly reduced (0.48 ± 0.06 ng/dL; P < 0.01) compared to day 3 or day 5 10-h values. Total serum T concentrations were within normal physiological range on day 0 (449 ± 35 ng/dL) and day 3 (441 ± 44 ng/dL) of OX treatment. However, by day 5, total serum T concentrations were significantly reduced (282 ± 45 ng/dL; P < 0.05) below day 0 and day 3 values (Fig. 3Go). Serum free T concentrations were within normal physiological range on days 0, 3, and 5. However, by day 5, serum free T concentrations were significantly reduced (98 ± 10 pg/mL; P < 0.001) below day 0 (121 ± 12 pg/mL) and day 3 (126 ± 9 pg/mL) values. Hence, the total androgen concentration (T + OX) was reduced in parallel to the reduction in T (Fig. 3Go).

 

[njmuscleguy]

Proviron and Masteron can be used INSTEAD OF TESTOSTERONE, as I have already stated.

The ANDROGENIC component possessed by these two compounds will increase MOOD, LIBIDO, and ENERGY.

So you're saying that proviron or masteron are not as suppressive as test yet will give the same FEEL that test does?

From what I've read, proviron has a decent androgen rating... even if it is considered "weak" (that's because it's not as anabolic). And from personal experience, I can FEEL that proviron is fairly androgenic....especially when the typical androgen sides start up (prostate issues, acne, hair loss). True, proviron is not as androgenic as say tren, but I'm not sure that using proviron or materon is a good argument for those looking for minimal suppression / shutdown in comparison to using test. Just my uneducated opinion.

 

[GUARDIAN]

I did see one of those in my recent searches, I will see if I can find it again.

I have more elaborate description/diagrams of sex hormone synthesis, but they are in textbooks.

Sports Med 2004; 34 (8): 513-554
Effects of Androgenic-Anabolic Steroids in Athletes

 

[Ross]

this goes to deca being very suppressive - I agree.

but you asserted that var was NOT suppressive, and the study above shows that it is. that was my point - not relative suppressivity. I agree that deca does the deed faster and at lower doses.

ALL steroids are suppressive(in high enough dosages), I never said Anavar was not suppressive, I said it would not oversaturate the Androgen and Estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and would thus not cause complete HPTA shutdown, which IS a very important physiological distinction.

 

[Mavafanculo]

ALL steroids are suppressive(in high enough dosages), I never said Anavar was not suppressive, I said it would not oversaturate the Androgen and Estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and would thus not cause complete HPTA shutdown, which IS a very important physiological distinction.

I'd have to dig further for confirming studys, but it seems only logical that if a baby-sized dose of 2.5 mg of var will suppress, given how homeostatsis works with the body trying to reduce endogenous test proportionate to exogenous test-mapped substance introduced, that then an 80 or 100 or 150mg dose of var (which is what BB's typically use) will further suppress to the point of "shutdown".

its just a continuum. "shutdown" is just another way of saying 99%-100% "suppressed".

In the meantime, everybody give the guy who started this thread some K lol.