Proper deadlift pulling technique and preventing injuries

[JOKER47]

New person question:

Why would olympians and powerlifters lift differently? Don't they have the same goals - to lift the most weight possible?

Well, for starters, olympic lifters are trying to lift the most weight they can up over thier head, while powerlifters are trying to "stand up" with the most weight they can. That would make 2 different lifts, so 2 different ways of training. (C&P/Snatch vs deadlift.)
Powerlifters also train for the squat and bench press. Oly lifters do not.


I'm sure there are many similarities in their respective training techniques, but many differences as well.

 

[coolcolj]

man does not live on bread alone - he must have sex

 

[anabolicmd]

Well, for starters, olympic lifters are trying to lift the most weight they can up over thier head, while powerlifters are trying to "stand up" with the most weight they can. That would make 2 different lifts, so 2 different ways of training. (C&P/Snatch vs deadlift.)
Powerlifters also train for the squat and bench press. Oly lifters do not.


I'm sure there are many similarities in their respective training techniques, but many differences as well.

Actually, oly lifters squat, powerlifters do not. If you go halfway down its not a squat, its technically a half-squat. Also, Olympic lifters also stand up with the weight, only they hold it overhead or on their shoulders while standing up.

 

[Nonerz]

allow me to retort

First of Nonerz, thank you for contributing so thoughtfully to this thread. Harvey Newtons book is a very good introduction to olympic weightlifting and its benefits in other sports. I also believe that oly lifting has the most to offer any athlete in terms of developing explosive speed and strength, as well as excellent flexibility throughout full ranges of motion.

And yes, the bar trajectory in the clean ends up being an elongated S curve, but, we do not aim for an S curve. We aim for a straight trajectory by keeping the bar as close and as vertical as possible throughout the lift. It is virtually impossible to lift the bar at a perfect 90 degree angle, but again, the goal is to get as close as possible. The mechanics and alignment of our bodies, as well as our flexibility and technique will dictate how close each of us can get to the ideal bar trajectory. And, starting out with the bar as close to the body is the ideal starting point if our goal is to keep the distance as short as possible, as well as focus all the energy into lifting the bar up, rather than back and forth. I actually brought up and discussed the S curve issue in post # 16 on this thread, and I adress some of my experience as well. I guess you missed it?

But back to the deadlift: in that lift as well, we aim for the shortest trajectory, and keeping the bar as close to the body during the entire lift is how we do it. To illustrate my point even better, consider the trap bar deadlift. Due to the construction of the bar, one can actually deadlift along the ideal bar trajectory, because the trap bar loops around the body. Trap bar deadlifts are much easier ton perform precisely because you dont have to worry about keepig the bar close, its already there, and the shortened distance allows lifters to lift more than they can in the conventional deadlift.

Well, to be quite honest, there were several posts that I agreed with and several posts that I disagreed with...I didn’t feel like rehashing all of it! But you are correct; I didn’t invest the time into reading the thread in its entirety before posting, so please forgive me there. Nate hopped on to my account and posted under my handle by accident…my actual fist post was #44. However, the post that I was responding to just struck me as very wrong.

I’m sure you gained a lot of experience with the Oly lifts if you trained with an Oly weighlifting club! I wish they had something like that at my gym! Anyhow, what technique were they teaching? I would say that I’m still relatively new to the Oly lifts and enjoy incorporating them into my training in addition to some PL style training, strongman training, GPP…all on top of teaching a cardio kickboxing class & aqua aerobics class up to 4 times a week!

Now back to the lifts…you said the following in post # 16 regarding your training experience with Dragomir…

…Back then the theory was that the bar should sweep in, then out and back in at the shoulders, makin an elongated "s" curve along the way. After that, I hadnt done much oly lifting untill 98 - 99, and that was when I had the good fortune to meet Dragomir Cioroslan, and I spent a year and a half training with a member of the US weightlifting team. Thats when I found out that the "s" motion was not in use anymore,

that it was all about keeping the path of the bar as vertical as possible, as close as possible to the body as well. Its simply the most efficient way of pulling the bar.

It seems that your viewpoint often ends up coming across like fact…I have a hard time accepting that, especially because I’m not familiar with the extent of your training (I haven’t been on this board in a while).

You also stated in post # 20…

…But, it is about lifting the biggest weight, and there are certain factors that are universal. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Any deviation from that line is an additional, unnecessary and detrimental waste of energy.

Wow, that is pretty harsh! “Any deviation from that line is an additional, unnecessary and detrimental waste of energy.” Now to me, that seems like your being very clear, but I still disagree with that based on my (somewhat limited, yet still practical) experience, as well as good reading from a trusted source.

Exerpt
From Harvey Newton’s
“Explosive Lifting for Sports.”
Page 40

Evolution of Pulling Technique

As weightlifting has evolved from a fairly brute strength sport to one of combined explosive power and strength, the method used to elevate heavier weights has gone through many changes. You can still perform a snatch or clean-and-jerk by simply picking the barbell up off the floor with little concern for technique, but you won’t get very far. Moreover, you certainly won’t gain the benefits of doing the lifts explosively and correctly.

Toward a More Efficient Technique

Since weightlifting involves two pulling movements, a good deal of the training time is devoted to pulling the barbell from the floor to overhead (snatch), to the chest (clean), or somewhere along the torso (partial pulling exercises). However, the mere act of correctly picking up the bar is more complex than it may appear initially. How the bar is lifted is crucial to mastering proper technique and maintaining progress.

Biomechanics have studied for many years that style of pulling used weightlifting. A fairly unified body of knowledge exists in terms of the most efficient lifting style. Of course, there is plenty of room for individual differences, as well. Depending on one’s own body size and limb proportions, coaching style, or in some cases cultural effects, two successful snatches may arrive at the same basic end position through much different means…

The S-Pull

…With records going higher each year, sport scientists determined that successful lifts showed a barbell trajectory that did not follow a perfectly straight line, although that is obviously the shortest distance between two points. It was determined that the most successful performances reflected a trajectory that looked something like an elongated letter S. Don’t get confused here: The bar is not actively swung in or out, as this can quickly lead to failure. It is much easier to manipulate the body, which normally weighs less, around the bar than vice versa.

End of exerpt
Furthermore you went on to say the following…

… the shortest distance between the botom and top of a benc pres is, you guessed it, a straight line vertically going up.

That doesn’t even seem correct. For some, from the side it looks more like an upside down J (I’m talking PL style here).

Then in post # 26, you say this:

Sorry Nate, its funny you bring that up, because Walkingbeast and I just hashed that out on pms. This is what I came up with: the ideal position is to have the bar as close to the spot right under your center of gravity. That is the straightest and shortest line. You are 1000% correct, our legs occupy most of that ideal spot, lol. So while it is absolutely true that the lifters own body presents an obstacle to pulling along the perfect path, one should nonetheless always try to go to the absolute maximum closest point to that perfect line that he or she can.

Once again, are you suggesting that this is fact? “What you came up with.” How amusing! Anyhow, that aside, I’m trying to understand your point.

“The ideal position is to have the bar as close to the spot right under your center of gravity. That is the straightest and shortest line.”

Once again I would refer you to the portion of Harvey Newton’s book I quoted above.

By the way, I’m more like 145 lbs, 25 % BF with a 250 Sumo DL (raw, with only rosin), 115 Bench, 200 x 2 Squat.

 

[anabolicmd]

Re: allow me to retort

I’m sure you gained a lot of experience with the Oly lifts if you trained with an Oly weighlifting club! I wish they had something like that at my gym! Anyhow, what technique were they teaching? I would say that I’m still relatively new to the Oly lifts and enjoy incorporating them into my training in addition to some PL style training, strongman training, GPP…all on top of teaching a cardio kickboxing class & aqua aerobics class up to 4 times a week!

Wow, that is pretty harsh! “Any deviation from that line is an additional, unnecessary and detrimental waste of energy.” Now to me, that seems like your being very clear, but I still disagree with that based on my (somewhat limited, yet still practical) experience, as well as good reading from a trusted source.

Nonerz, thanks for the explanation, but lets do a little more reading and a little less account shell games, ok?
J/K, this thread is getting big and Im sure I have missed a lot of stuff too.

But, in regards to the S curve (and the curved trajectory of the bench press, I actually already went into that but this has been a looong thread and I cant blame you if you missed it. What I said was that a straight line is the IDEAL path, which is virtually impossible to actually achieve, especially in the begining and ending portions of the clean, because of the wrist rotation that gives it the little "curl" in the beginning and end of the motion. That is why when the bar trajectories of the best lifters are analyzed, they come out as elongated S curve. But my whole point is, one must try to draw the bar up in a straight line, because the more the bar curves, the more energy is wasted. And when I say wasted, or detrimental, Im not being harsh, Im speaking strictly in technical terms.

On a lighter note, I am not currently training in an olympic gym, unfortunately. I should clarify that I didnt actually train under Dragomir, I was actually coached by one of his athletes who is also a coach. I did get some good tips and ideas from him, but the year and a half I spent training in the oly lifts was under the guidance of my coach.

 

[Debaser]

sorry Nonerz, that came out wrong. It was directed at anabolicmd.

Sorry to interject, but it doesn't matter who it was directed to. To make a successful point, one must debunk the quality of a person's arguments, not the person himself/herself.

It shouldn't matter if anabolicmd is 110 lbs sopping wet. It is fallacious to discount a person's argument because of who they are.

 

[anabolicmd]

stats are irrelevant..

I agree 100% Cuthbert, physical stats are not an indicator of training knowledge. There are very gifted athletes who cant coach, and there are great coaches who arent super strong. But for those who would like to know, heres my basics:

Height: 6-5
Weight: 290 - 305
Max Bench: around 340, not sure, havent maxed in a while, or benched for that matter.
Max squat: 470 (and by squat, off course I mean the regular squat, all the way down baby!)
Max Deadlift: 535
Max military(strict): 265

Some of these were done in kilos, so a pound or two may have gotten lost in the translation

 

[anabolicmd]

Something I picked up from the charlie francis site is that OLs are just a possible tool to develop explosiveness. Some of his athletes don't have a knack for them so he uses other tools with them... They're just a means to an end (unless of course if you are in the Olympics doing the c+j).

Or if you play college or pro football, as well as wrestling, track and field, or any other sport that uses speed, power, flexibility, coordination and agility.

 

[anabolicmd]

Something I picked up from the charlie francis site is that OLs are just a possible tool to develop explosiveness. Some of his athletes don't have a knack for them so he uses other tools with them... They're just a means to an end (unless of course if you are in the Olympics doing the c+j).

Tell Charlie Francis to take it up with Dr. Squat, lol:

"Supporting Starr and Garhammer's belief in the importance of Olympic lifts in the development of power is Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield. In his article, "Athletes and The Olympic Lifts", Hatfield comments: "Pound for pound, Olympic weightlifters have a greater level of speed-strength than any other class of athletes in all of sport. This fact was made very clear during a massive scientific expedition carried out on the athletes at the Mexico City Olympics in 1964. Sports scientists found that Olympic lifters were able to both vertical jump higher than any class of athletes (including the high jumpers), and run a 25-yard dash faster than any class of athletes (including the sprinters)."

While genetics played a large part in this high level of power, specialized training allowed these athletes to approach their genetic potential. The "snatch" and "clean and jerk" were the centerpieces of their training.

Hatfield's article, "Powerlifting and Speed-Strength Training" revealed that "explosive movements with the weights is the only way to develop great explosive strength." Hatfield went on to say that, "If all you've been doing is slow, continuous tension movements -- and from my observations, too many of you do it -- you should take careful heed of the research. Remember, it's the white fibers -- the ones that contract fast -- that will give you the greatest returns in speed-strength.... never neglect these important fast movements."

As you can see, Olympic pulls are vital for power development for your deadlift, while good mornings are essential for strength training. Put together, good mornings and Olympic pulls are the most effective exercises for increasing one's deadlift. You will be less likely to over train your lower back. You will have more energy for your squat and bench press. And as an added bonus, you will reduce your ibuprofen usage."

::End quote::

So you see, you cant beat oly lifts for explosive power, and it appears to benefit powerlifters as well.

 

[collegiateLifter]

you have so much to learn, so a little humbleness might do you well. For instance....

Tell Charlie Francis to take it up with Dr. Squat, lol:

"Supporting Starr and Garhammer's belief in the importance of Olympic lifts in the development of power is Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield. In his article, "Athletes and The Olympic Lifts", Hatfield comments: "Pound for pound, Olympic weightlifters have a greater level of speed-strength than any other class of athletes in all of sport. This fact was made very clear during a massive scientific expedition carried out on the athletes at the Mexico City Olympics in 1964. Sports scientists found that Olympic lifters were able to both vertical jump higher than any class of athletes (including the high jumpers), and run a 25-yard dash faster than any class of athletes (including the sprinters)."

let's start with the mythical 1964 mexico city olympics tests where OLers beat all the other olympians in these events.

These events are mythical because they are just that, an urban legend. Much like ben johnsons "squat of 600lbs" before his 9.79 in Seoul. There is zero documentation supporting the former and outright contradiction against the latter, yet both are often quoted in Strength training articles.