HERE'S ANOTHER BIG LONG FUCKING STICKY FOR YOU !!!! THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT HUH BITCH!?
Combating Oestrogens and Progesterone
Oestrogens and progesterone are two hormones responsible for female characteristics. They can be produced as a side effect of anabolic steroid use when they convert (aromatise) into these hormones. Both are responsible for some of the side effects of steroid use, eg gyno (gynecomastia - female breast tissue development in males, aka 'bitch tits'), female body fat deposition, water retention, etc.
Anti-oestrogens are compounds which act to reduce oestrogenic activity in the body. This is achieved in one of two ways, and there are different drugs which fall into these categories.
Anti-Oestrogens
Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
Competitive aromatase inhibitors bind to the same site on the enzyme aromatase as testosterone does. This allows less testosterone to bind to aromatase, which in turn means less is converted to oestradiol (the primary type of oestrogen). An important point to note is that the amount of inhibitor required rises with increasing steroid dose i.e. higher doses of Arimidex or Proviron are required to prevent the aromatisation of 1000mg/week of testosterone than 500mgs/week.
Arimidex (Anastrozole)
Arimidex is the perfect choice for when using high doses of aromatising steroids, or indeed even for moderate doses if the individual is prone to gyno. It is thought that it may be possible to lower oestrogen levels too much with Arimidex and for this reason blood tests are recommended to determine whether the dosing schedule is correct for maximum results, as it is theorised that some oestrogen presence is required to keep the androgen receptors 'open'. Arimidex has excellent binding qualities at the receptor and therefore only low doses are required. The main downside is its price; it is very expensive (see article 'The Price of Gear')
Dosing
Arimidex is supplied in 1mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 0.25 - 1mg/day. In most cases 0.5mg/day is sufficient.
Proviron (Mesterolone)
Proviron is an anabolic steroid with little direct anabolic properties. It has good binding qualities with the androgen receptor, but most never reaches the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, as it is enzymatically converted to diol. It is however effective as an anti-aromatase, and is believed to also act in an anti-oestrogenic manner due to certain oestrogen receptor down-regulation, making it a very effective compound for preventing gyno. Proviron also helps restore sexual dysfunctions caused by steroid cycling, helping to increase sexual desire as a result of the increased androgen levels, a downside can be permanent erections in some males which at first may sound fantastic but can be extremely painful, in which case the dose should be lowered or discontinued. Proviron will also help reduce excess bloating caused by water retention.
Proviron can be used effectively throughout clomid therapy as it displays no signs of inhibiting the HPTA (see article 'Clomid and HCG'), and is helpful in keeping androgen levels elevated until natural testosterone production is restored correctly. The androgenic activity is also responsible for the distinct hardening of muscles and is one reason it is often favoured leading up to competitions.
Dosing
Proviron is supplied in 25mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 25 to 100mg/day, in most cases 25 to 50mg/day is sufficient. Dose is best split am and pm.
Oestrogen receptor antagonists
Oestrogen receptor antagonists are weak oestrogens which bind strongly to a hormone receptor, but do not activate the receptor and make it unresponsive to the stronger oestrogenic hormones present due to the aromatisation of steroids.
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate)
Nolvadex is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with potent anti-estrogenic properties. Its clinical use is primarily in chemotherapy for cancer patients. It is very useful and successful in combination with a steroid regimen at reducing water retention and preventing gyno. Nolvadex is probably the most commonly used anti-oestrogen mainly due to its mostly positive effects, availability and low price. Controversy surrounds the fact that it anecdotally appears to reduce gains made on a cycle, mostly due to reduced water retention, but most users agree that losses, if any, are minimal and its always difficult to say what gains may have been made in its absence.
Dosing
An effective dose seems to be 10 to 20mg/day.
At first signs of a possible gyno, take 20mg/day until symptoms subside, then 10mg/day until completion of cycle and post-cycle Clomid therapy.
Clomid (Clomifen)
Like Nolvadex, Clomid is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with anti-oestrogenic properties. The two compounds are structurally similar and their mechanism of action is also similar. The general consensus though, is that Clomid is best left as a post-cycle natural testosterone recovery product and a more appropriate anti-oestrogen found, as Clomid does not seem to be as effective in this role.
Progestins
The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-oestrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.
Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires oestrogen presence to activate it in the first place.
Use with non-aromatising steroids
If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development. A simple stack of Anadrol and Primobolan will go along way to packing on some serious mass without the worry of developing gyno.
Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
If aromatising steroids are to be included in the stack with progestagenic steroids, then the concurrent use of Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors, like Arimidex or Proviron, would also seem a sensible option. These can be incorporated to keep oestrogen levels low and avoid the activation of the progesterone. Although they will not help with already developed progesterone induced gyno, they can certainly be employed to avoid its development. As usual, the amount of aromatase inhibitor required increases with increasing dose of aromatising steroids used, but the best dose is still the minimum amount that can be got away with to produce the desired effect.
Winstrol
The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.
One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca, as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning.
All of the above mentioned compounds can be used effectively as part of steroid cycles, but careful consideration should be given to selecting the correct compound/s for the duty required.
Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.
Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.
Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.
Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.
Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.
It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.
Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.
Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.
When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.
As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.
The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.
Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks
How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.
Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes
Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below 
but anyway I have read this post and it is extremely informative but I must admit I am still rather confused as to my actual situation and what constitutes a proper PCT for me at this point since my circumstances are not exactly the norm...
