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Must Take Supplements While "On"

macemj

New member
I am on 500mg/wk of Test Prop. wk 1-14, 600mg/wk EQ wk #1-14, and DBOL 40mg wk. 1-4. THIS IS MY FIRST GO WITH DBOL.

I am taking:
.25 liquidex e3d
fish oil for HDL
multivitamin - adult GNC
Glutamine post workout

What am I missing here? I have been feeling a little congested and winded as of late. I know my placque buildup due to low HDL level have something to do with this. Also, have been take some mirolax to soften my stool and induce proper bowl movements which I have been having trouble doing as of late - it has help significantly.

Bottom line is:

What are necessities when taking a cycle? What would you never leave out of your recipe for a successful and healthy promoting cycle??
 
Glutamine is worthless and liquidex isn't a suppement.

Not sure which are a "must" (even protein can be obtained solely from food) but many help. UNLEASHED was designed to make the most of a cycle.
 
I take no supplements other than one for my joints, some protein powder, and a multi, and have done pretty well for myself without making the supplement industry any richer
 
~ WTF ?

Glutamine is NOT worthless.

Where do you come up with this shit, Nelson???

Don't you sell a glutamine based product???

There are dozens of research articles that say otherwise.

~
 
I am with needsize . Protien protien protien. eat as much as you can and throw in some protien drinks to help out.

I dabble with stuff but in reality the money for some of the fancy stuff compared to steroids it is just better to buy steroids
 
I take supps off or on:

Glutamine
Creatine
Protien shakes
Fish oil
Glucosamine/Condrodant with msn
Cissus Quad
Flax
Nitrix Oxcide
HGH
Igf-r3
Peanut butter
and my favorite oral vagina at least 2-3 times a week!
 
Glutamine is worthless and liquidex isn't a suppement.

Not sure which are a "must" (even protein can be obtained solely from food) but many help. UNLEASHED was designed to make the most of a cycle.

Glutamine is not worthless! Unleashed.....

Been taking: glutamine, bcaa, multiv, creatine, argine, fish oil,
mag-calc-zinc, b complex and a lot of protein shakes.

It works.
 
lol @ glutamine being worthless...sometimes Nelson surprises me with those random comments

Here's what I take:

Whey
BCAAs
Glutamine
Arginine
Milk Thisle
Garlic
Glucosamine Sulfate
Shark Cartilage
Green Tea
Goja Berry
OMEGAs
Creatine
Multi Vitamin
Ginseng
 
~ WTF ?

Glutamine is NOT worthless.


..........................

YES IT IS. IT CAN NOT BE DIGESTED. THE BODY COVERTS IT FROM BCAA'S


......................................................

Where do you come up with this shit, Nelson???

.........................

I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.


..................................................



Don't you sell a glutamine based product???

............................


NO.


............................................

There are dozens of research articles that say otherwise.

...................................

ACTUALLY THERE AREN;T ANY. ALL STUDIES THAT SHOW GLUTAMINE TO HAVE ANY EFFECT IN HUMANS IS WITH INTRAVENIOUS ADMINISTARATION. GLUTAMINE MUST GO DIRECTLY INTO THE BLOODSTREAM, OTHERWISE IT WILL BE DESTROYED IN THE DIGESTIVE TRACT.


THERE ARE HOWEVER, MANY OTHER VERY USEFUL SUPPLEMENTS AND JUST IGNORING THEM ISN'T NOBLE OR SHREWD. IT JUST MAKES IT A LITTLE HARDER TO OBTAIN WHAT YOU CAN WITH THEM.

~

....
 
Glutamine has been proven in countless studies with results showing its muscle building and anti catabolic properties, however, most decent protein shakes will contain around 5 grams per scoop so supplementing with additional glutamine is'nt really required.

I think the most important thing, expecially when on a bulking cycle is just getting alot of food down your throat. Supplements can definatley help out here, expecially a good multi vit/min, protein powders, BCAAs, Meal replacements/Gainers and various EFA (i love udos oil!) supps.
 
multi-v, creatine, glutamine, protein shakes. on and off cycle.

i think you are going to have a problem with liquidex. AG = jerk off scamming dick heads.
 
Nelson, you are wrong about glutamine being destroyed in the digestive tract.

Please cite your studies that show this.

I will admit that there are studies out there that IV administer glutamine. But you are wrong in saying that is all there is. Take a look at the JAMA abstract article that detailed the use of oral glutamine to reduce sugar cravings in detoxifying alcoholics as but one example.

In some cases Nelson, you do know a lot about what you are talking about. In this one you are completely wrong or misinformed. I will bet my Masters Degree in BioChem where my post grad research was nearly 90% about chemicals passing the blood/brain barrier against your "I know what I am talking about" statement.

Dig a little deeper and you will find the truth.

B-
 
my genetics for mass gains suck, I have tried every supplement out there and basically gotten next to nothing from them...I found sticking with the basics and being patient is where all my gains came from
 
Glutamine is not worthless! Unleashed.....

Been taking: glutamine, bcaa, multiv, creatine, argine, fish oil,
mag-calc-zinc, b complex and a lot of protein shakes.

It works.


How do you know. Tell you what -- take no drugs or supplements for one month. The take nothing but $10 worth of glutamine a day. Then tell me how much you gained. That's the only way you can tell. There would be no difference.
 
Nelson, you are wrong about glutamine being destroyed in the digestive tract.

Please cite your studies that show this.

.....................................

THE BURDEN OF PROOF DOESN'T LIE IN DISPROVING. YOU SHOW ME STUDIES WHERE ORAL GLUT INCREASED MUSCLE MASS AND WE'LL TALK.




......................................................

I will admit that there are studies out there that IV administer glutamine. But you are wrong in saying that is all there is. Take a look at the JAMA abstract article that detailed the use of oral glutamine to reduce sugar cravings in detoxifying alcoholics as but one example.

........................................................

THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSCLE GROWTH.



.................................................................

In some cases Nelson, you do know a lot about what you are talking about. In this one you are completely wrong or misinformed. I will bet my Masters Degree in BioChem where my post grad research was nearly 90% about chemicals passing the blood/brain barrier against your "I know what I am talking about" statement.

............................................................

GO FOR IT. YOU'VE PROVED NOTHING SO FAR.




.............................................

Dig a little deeper and you will find the truth.

..................................

BACK ATCHA BRO.

B-


..
 
Uh Oh we've got a Clash Of The Titans going on here ! should be interesting what they come up with :evil:
 
LOL !!! You THINK you know what you are talking about ... YOU DON'T!

........................................................

PERHAPS I "THINK" I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT BUT THE PUBLISHERS OF DOZENS OF MAJOR PUBLICATIONS SEEM TO AGREE WITH ME. I'VE ALSO HAD THE ENDORSEMENT OF GUYS LIKE MR. UNIVERSE DAVE DRAPER , DR.ERIC SERRANO, MAURO DIPASQUALE, LOU SCHULER OF MEN'S HEALTH, CHARLES POLIQUIN,CHAMPION POWERLIFTER DENNIS WEISS AND HUNDREDS OF CLI.ENTS THROUGHT THE YEARS. FEEL FREE TO STATE YOUR ENDORSEMENTS ANYTIME.



..............................................................................................


Statements like that make members think you are full of crap!

....................................

THAT WOULD BE STUPID IF THEY DID.




....................................



Like your wacko comment about , "stop recommending test as a first cycle."



..................................................


ACTUALLY, THAT ISN;T EXACTLY WHAT I SAID, BUT THINK WHATEVER YOU WANT BRO IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER TO PRETEND YOU'RE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN YOU ACTUALLY ARE..

THAT'S JUST FLAT BULLSHIT!

....................................

I LOVE WHEN PEOPLE CALL SOMETHING BULLSHIT BASED ON NOTHING...NOT EVEN AN ARGUMENT....ONLY THE FACT THAT THEY DISAGREE AND DON;T LIKE WHAT THEY'R HEARING. TALK LESS AND LISTEN MORE BRO. YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING. I KNOW IT'S TOUGH AS YOU GET ON IN YEARS BUT THAT MAKES IT THAT MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO DO SO. :cool:


...
 
glutamine works for me. i notice a faster recovery. that is while taking 3 heaping tsp. per day for 6wks then stopping for 4
 
Huh? You got a point bro?

My point is that in the short time I have been on this board I have seen completely off the wall stuff coming from you. The aspirin thing stuck in my head from a post a read the other day, and I felt it was funny that you are so out of touch with glutamine and how the body uses it as well as our apparent lack of knowledge with one of the most widely used substances of today.
 
lol @ glutamine being worthless...sometimes Nelson surprises me with those random comments

Here's what I take:

Whey
BCAAs
Glutamine
Arginine
Milk Thisle
Garlic
Glucosamine Sulfate
Shark Cartilage
Green Tea
Goja Berry
OMEGAs
Creatine
Multi Vitamin
Ginseng


That is a very nice variety! I am going to definetly add some Milk Thistle. Green tea is the best - makes me feel "cleased." What is Goja Berry? I take alcai berry (Monavie)!!
So I will be taking:

Milk Thistle
Multi
Monavie
Green Tea (2X daily)
Liquid Amino Acids (twin labs)
Glutamine
Fish oil
Cranberry Juice 24 oz/day
 
My point is that in the short time I have been on this board I have seen completely off the wall stuff coming from you. The aspirin thing stuck in my head from a post a read the other day, and I felt it was funny that you are so out of touch with glutamine and how the body uses it as well as our apparent lack of knowledge with one of the most widely used substances of today.



I'm sorry...you seem to have mistaken me for some schmuck who just likes to post messages. You've been a short time. Listen and learn. Dude, I've been in the business over 30 years. I've had over 300 pieces published in my lifetime. I've dealt with everyone in the industry. I've competed in National shows. I've been quoted in books, TV, radio and magazines. Not braggin' just sayin' Just so you know.

Jsut because something is widely used doesn;t mean it's effective. Placebo is strong. There is no way you can say you recovery faster since recovery is not guageable.

I've worked for supplement companies. I know what works and what doesn't. I could very easily sell glutamine. But I don't. Because it doesn't work. I only make formulations that work.

And isn;t it funny? No one has presented any evidence of glutamine working other than they say so, it's widely used or they don;t want to believe they've wasted their money.

Glutamine pepdies have shown a better absorbtion rate. Not great, but better. Non peptide glutamine goes through you as an inert substance.

I have nothing to gain by dismissing glutamine. Knock yourself out. Buy thousands of dollars of the stuff. Your loss. Just trying to help.
 
multi-v, creatine, glutamine, protein shakes. on and off cycle.

i think you are going to have a problem with liquidex. AG = jerk off scamming dick heads.


Why do you think AG guys suck? I have used the liquidex for 3 cycles and notice less water but an increase in anger and lethargic feeling (if taken too much). Also, if i notice to be breaking out from estrogen rebound than i take .25 eod for a week and it clears it up (dried out)..weird.

My thoughts on Liquidex.
 
Nelson,

You stated that glutamine does not survive the digestive tract.
I said you are wrong (which you are). Prove to me that it doesn't. Show me your proof.

I gave you an example of mine (the oral glutamine given to alcoholics). Now put up or shut up.

I don't care who endorses you, what supp companies you have worked for and for how long, or how many articles you have written. That has nothing to do with this conversation. It is just subterfuge and distraction you are throwing around because you can not back up your claim that glutamine dies not survive the digestive tract.

B-
 
Here's an idea to calm the waters in this thread.
If you take Glutamine & like it, continue to use it.
If you don't like Glutamine or don't think it works, don't take it.
Or we can just continue this great debate. :argue:
 
Muscle glutamine depletion in the intensive care unit

Gianni Biolo, , Francesca Zorat, Raffaella Antonione and Beniamino Ciocchi

Department of Clinical, Morphological and Technological Sciences, University of Trieste, Trieste, Italy

Received 28 October 2004; revised 3 May 2005; accepted 4 May 2005. Available online 31 May 2005.




Abstract
Glutamine is primarily synthesized in skeletal muscle and enables transfer of nitrogen to splanchnic tissues, kidneys and immune system. Discrepancy between increasing rates of glutamine utilization at whole body level and relative impairment of de novo synthesis in skeletal muscle leads to systemic glutamine deficiency and characterizes critical illness. Glutamine depletion at whole body level may contribute to gut, liver and immune system disfunctions, whereas its intramuscular deficiency may directly contribute to lean body mass loss. Severe intramuscular glutamine depletion also develops because of outward transport system upregulation, which is not counteracted by increased de novo synthesis. The negative impact of systemic glutamine depletion on critically ill patients is suggested both by the association between a lower plasma glutamine concentration and poor outcome and by a clear clinical benefit after glutamine supplementation. Enteral glutamine administration preferentially increases glutamine disposal in splanchnic tissues, whereas parenteral supplementation provides glutamine to the whole organism. Nonetheless, systemic administration was ineffective in preventing muscle depletion, due to a relative inability of skeletal muscle to seize glutamine from the bloodstream. Intramuscular glutamine depletion could be potentially counteracted by promoting de novo glutamine synthesis with pharmacological or nutritional interventions.
 
Ok back to the subject. Taking creatine while on cycle is usless, because it works by increasing ATp and nitrogen retintion in the skeletal muscle. AAS dose that, but many folds greater, so taking creatine while on cycle wont have any noticable benificial effects.

So what is good to take?

Aspirin 81 mg

Numerous studies document the multiple health benefits of daily low dose aspirin. Aspirin helps to maintain normal platelet aggregation in blood vessels via several mechanisms, including suppressing thromboxane H2, prostaglandin E2, and possibly C-reactive protein

Hawthorne Berry

Hawthorne berry is said to strengthen the walls of the arteries, and may also increase the heart’s pumping power. The herb may also help the symptoms of angina, hypertension, tachycardia--rapid heartbeat--and arrhythmia, irregular heart beat

Fish oil, and a good Multi vit/ Anti-oxidant
 
Glutamine is not for muscle growth. It is for faster recovery.

When I take Glutamine my muscles recover faster than they do when I do not take it.

Glutamine is not worthless.
 
Why do you think AG guys suck? I have used the liquidex for 3 cycles and notice less water but an increase in anger and lethargic feeling (if taken too much). Also, if i notice to be breaking out from estrogen rebound than i take .25 eod for a week and it clears it up (dried out)..weird.

My thoughts on Liquidex.

ag is selling a lot of bs lately. serously underdosed or fake all together. all within the last couple months.
 
I swear by glute, as does MWM5, One Breath and Omega. and others

Certainly recovery wise - a good dose of glute after a hard squat/ dead session virtually eliminates all soreness the next day.

Dont believe me? Try it and see.

Its also excellent when comnined with BCAA's PWO to raise slin levels without the use of carbs, and promotes increase protein synthesis. Studies show this
 
I am on 500mg/wk of Test Prop. wk 1-14, 600mg/wk EQ wk #1-14, and DBOL 40mg wk. 1-4. THIS IS MY FIRST GO WITH DBOL.

I am taking:
.25 liquidex e3d
fish oil for HDL
multivitamin - adult GNC
Glutamine post workout

What am I missing here? I have been feeling a little congested and winded as of late. I know my placque buildup due to low HDL level have something to do with this. Also, have been take some mirolax to soften my stool and induce proper bowl movements which I have been having trouble doing as of late - it has help significantly.

Bottom line is:

What are necessities when taking a cycle? What would you never leave out of your recipe for a successful and healthy promoting cycle??

Flax powder in your shakes and psyllium husk, and brocolli with each solid meal will definately keep your bowels moving bro.
 
it is easy for me to gauge the impact on recovery glutamine has by this. i do 6wks on 4 whs off. on average while on glutamine my muscle soreness goes away within 1-2 days depending or muscle group. off of glutamine muscle soreness takes 2-3 days to go away. it has been this way for me for the last 2 years at least. so that is definite proof that glutamine has a positive impact on my recovery.
 
Muscle glutamine depletion in the intensive care unit

Gianni Biolo, , Francesca Zorat, Raffaella Antonione and Beniamino Ciocchi

Department of Clinical, Morphological and Technological Sciences, University of Trieste, Trieste, Italy

Received 28 October 2004; revised 3 May 2005; accepted 4 May 2005. Available online 31 May 2005.




Abstract
Glutamine is primarily synthesized in skeletal muscle and enables transfer of nitrogen to splanchnic tissues, kidneys and immune system. Discrepancy between increasing rates of glutamine utilization at whole body level and relative impairment of de novo synthesis in skeletal muscle leads to systemic glutamine deficiency and characterizes critical illness. Glutamine depletion at whole body level may contribute to gut, liver and immune system disfunctions, whereas its intramuscular deficiency may directly contribute to lean body mass loss. Severe intramuscular glutamine depletion also develops because of outward transport system upregulation, which is not counteracted by increased de novo synthesis. The negative impact of systemic glutamine depletion on critically ill patients is suggested both by the association between a lower plasma glutamine concentration and poor outcome and by a clear clinical benefit after glutamine supplementation. Enteral glutamine administration preferentially increases glutamine disposal in splanchnic tissues, whereas parenteral supplementation provides glutamine to the whole organism. Nonetheless, systemic administration was ineffective in preventing muscle depletion, due to a relative inability of skeletal muscle to seize glutamine from the bloodstream. Intramuscular glutamine depletion could be potentially counteracted by promoting de novo glutamine synthesis with pharmacological or nutritional interventions.


Thank you. Someone presenting real evidence. And look! It concurs what I've been saying. How about that.

So many issues to address -- where do I start?

As for mighty-musculus 's issue with aspirin, I'm not sure what your problem is. Aspitin was used for 100 years before they knew how it worked. Sure, now they can track that it effect prosaglandins which therefore sets off this chemical reaction and blah, blah, blah, but aspirin was not designed to do that. It was just something that DID it! That was my point. Avenacosides work, but it's not like there are a bunch of research teams trying to discover how it lowers SHBG. No money in that.

And not for nothin' but terms like; "You THINK you know what you're talking about!" And "You're full of shit!" And "You're wacko" ... are all insults. They offer no contrary debate. They're just petulant reactions. Try to exhibit more class in future posts, please.
 
Thank you. Someone presenting real evidence. And look! It concurs what I've been saying. How about that.

Department of Anaesthesia and Intensive Care, Astrid Lindgren Children's Hospital, Karolinska Hospital, S-171 76, Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]

Glutathione is quantitatively the most important endogenous scavenger system. Glutathione depletion in skeletal muscle is pronounced following major trauma and sepsis in intensive care unit patients. Also, following elective surgery, glutathione depletion occurs in parallel with a progressive decline in muscle glutamine concentration. The present study was designed to test the hypothesis that glutamine supplementation may counteract glutathione depletion in a human trauma model. A homogeneous group of patients (n = 17) undergoing a standardized surgical procedure were prospectively randomly allocated to receive glutamine (0.56 g x day(-1) x kg(-1)) or placebo as part of isonitrogenous and isocaloric nutrition. Percutaneous muscle biopsies and blood samples were taken pre-operatively and at 24 and 72 h after surgery. The concentrations of muscle glutathione and related amino acids were determined in muscle tissue and plasma. In the control (unsupplemented) subjects, total muscle glutathione had decreased by 47+/-8% and 37+/-11% and reduced glutathione had decreased by 53+/-10% and 45+/-16% respectively at 24 and 72 h after surgery (P < 0.05). In contrast, in the glutamine-supplemented group, no significant post-operative decreases in total or reduced glutathione were seen following surgery. Muscle free glutamine had decreased at 72 h after surgery in both groups, by 41.4+/-14.8% (P < 0.05) in the glutamine-supplemented group and by 46.0+/-14.3% (P < 0.05) in the control group. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that intravenous glutamine supplementation attenuates glutathione depletion in skeletal muscle in humans following standardized surgical trauma.

Unless I am reading this wrong, it seems to me that muscle has very limited if any problems pulling glutamine from the bloodstream.

It would seem that this study contradicts the one mentioned above.

You still have not produced any of your own proof Nelson.

I still challenge you to show me proof to support your statement that glutamine does not survive the digestive tract.

You also made the assertion that muscle cell recovery is not quantifiable. I'm still waiting for proof in this as well.

You're not getting a free pass on this one.

B-
 
Nelson is full of BS most of the time , but glutamine sucks balls

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

-----------------------------------------------

J Strength Cond Res 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60
The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance

Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.




Int J Sports Med 2000 Jan;21(1):25-30 Related Articles, Links


The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.

van Hall G, Saris WH, van de Schoor PA, Wagenmakers AJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study investigated previous claims that ingestion of glutamine and of protein-carbohydrate mixtures may increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis following intense exercise. Eight trained subjects were studied during 3 h of recovery while consuming one of four drinks in random order. Drinks were ingested in three 500 ml boluses, immediately after exercise and then after 1 and 2 h of recovery. Each bolus of the control drink contained 0.8 g x kg(-1) body weight of glucose. The other drinks contained the same amount of glucose and 0.3 g x kg(-1) body weight of 1) glutamine, 2) a wheat hydrolysate (26% glutamine) and 3) a whey hydrolysate (6.6% glutamine). Plasma glutamine, decreased by approximately 20% during recovery with ingestion of the control drink, no changes with ingestion of the protein hydrolysates drinks, and a 2-fold increase with ingestion of the free glutamine drinks. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was not significantly different in the four tests: 28 +/- 5, 26 +/- 6, 33 +/- 4, and 34 +/- 3 mmol glucosyl units x kg(-1) dry weight muscle x h(-1) for the control, glutamine, wheat- and whey hydrolysate ingestion, respectively. It is concluded that ingestion of a glutamine/carbohydrate mixture does not increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis in muscle. Glycogen resynthesis rates were higher, although not statistically significant, after ingestion of the drink containing the wheat (21 +/- 8%) and whey protein hydrolysate (20 +/- 6%) compared to ingestion of the control and free glutamine drinks, implying that further research is needed on the potential protein effect.




Metabolism 2000 Dec;49(12):1555-60 Related Articles, Links


Intravenous glutamine does not stimulate mixed muscle protein synthesis in healthy young men and women.

Zachwieja JJ, Witt TL, Yarasheski KE.

Exercise and Nutrition Program, Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA, USA.

We investigated the effects of a glutamine-supplemented amino acid mixture on vastus lateralis muscle protein synthesis rate in healthy young men and women. Three men and 3 women (27.8 +/- 2.0 yr, 22.2 +/- 1.0 body mass index [BMI], 56.1 +/- 4.5 kg lean body mass [LBM]) received a 14-hour primed, constant intravenous infusion of L[1-13C]leucine to evaluate the fractional rate of mixed muscle protein synthesis. In addition to tracer administration, a clinically relevant amino acid mixture supplemented with either glutamine or glycine in amounts isonitrogenous to glutamine, was infused. Amino acid mixtures were infused on separate occasions in random order at a rate of 0.04 g/kg/h (glutamine at approximately 0.01 g/kg/h) with at least 2 weeks between treatment. For 2 days before and on the day of an infusion, dietary intake was controlled so that each subject received 1.5 g protein/kg/d. Compared with our previous report in the postabsorptive state, amino acid infusion increased the fractional rate of mixed muscle protein synthesis by 48% (P < .05); however, the addition of glutamine to the amino acid mixture did not further elevate muscle protein synthesis rate (ie, 0.071% +/- 0.008%/h for amino acids + glutamine v 0.060% +/- 0.008%/h for amino acids + glycine; P = .316). Plasma glutamine concentrations were higher (P < .05) during the glutamine-supplemented infusion, but free intramuscular glutamine levels were not increased (P = .363). Both plasma and free intramuscular glycine levels were increased when extra glycine was included in the infused amino acid mixture (both P < .0001). We conclude that intravenous infusion of amino acids increases the fractional rate of mixed muscle protein synthesis, but addition of glutamine to the amino acid mixture does not further stimulate muscle protein synthesis rate in healthy young men and women.


J Appl Physiol 2002 Sep;93(3):813-22 Related Articles, Links


Exercise-induced immunodepression- plasma glutamine is not the link.

His**** N, Pedersen BK.

Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre and Department of Infectious Diseases, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark.

The amino acid glutamine is known to be important for the function of some immune cells in vitro. It has been proposed that the decrease in plasma glutamine concentration in relation to catabolic conditions, including prolonged, exhaustive exercise, results in a lack of glutamine for these cells and may be responsible for the transient immunodepression commonly observed after acute, exhaustive exercise. It has been unclear, however, whether the magnitude of the observed decrease in plasma glutamine concentration would be great enough to compromise the function of immune cells. In fact, intracellular glutamine concentration may not be compromised when plasma levels are decreased postexercise. In addition, a number of recent intervention studies with glutamine feeding demonstrate that, although the plasma concentration of glutamine is kept constant during and after acute, strenuous exercise, glutamine supplementation does not abolish the postexercise decrease in in vitro cellular immunity, including low lymphocyte number, impaired lymphocyte proliferation, impaired natural killer and lymphokine-activated killer cell activity, as well as low production rate and concentration of salivary IgA. It is concluded that, although the glutamine hypothesis may explain immunodepression related to other stressful conditions such as trauma and burn, plasma glutamine concentration is not likely to play a mechanistic role in exercise-induced immunodepression.


Effect of glutamine and protein supplementation on exercise-induced decreases in salivary IgA.

Krzywkowski K, Petersen EW, Ostrowski K, Link-Amster H, Boza J, Halkjaer-Kristensen J, Pedersen BK.

The Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Rigshospitalet, 2200 Copenhagen, Denmark.

Postexercise immune impairment has been linked to exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration. This study examined the possibility of abolishing the exercise-induced decrease in salivary IgA through glutamine supplementation during and after intense exercise. Eleven athletes performed cycle ergometer exercise for 2 h at 75% of maximal oxygen uptake on 3 separate days. Glutamine (a total of 17.5 g), protein (a total of 68.5 g/6.2 g protein-bound glutamine), and placebo supplements were given during and up to 2 h after exercise. Unstimulated, timed saliva samples were obtained before exercise and 20 min, 140 min, 4 h, and 22 h postexercise. The exercise protocol induced a decrease in salivary IgA (IgA concentration, IgA output, and IgA relative to total protein). The plasma concentration of glutamine was decreased by 15% 2 h postexercise in the placebo group, whereas this decline was abolished by both glutamine and protein supplements.None of the supplements, however, was able to abolish the decline in salivary IgA. This study does not support that postexercise decrease in salivary IgA is related to plasma glutamine concentrations.
 
An excerpt from "Appetite For Construction
Building Results From Research"
by John M. Berardi

Should I Spend my Hard-Earned Money on Glutamine or Hookers?

.... A high protein diet provides a big whack of glutamine as it is. In fact, if you follow standard bodybuilding protein recommendations, about 10% of your total dietary protein intake is composed of glutamine (milk proteins are composed of somewhere between 3 — 10% glutamine while meat is composed of about 15% glutamine). This means that a high protein diet (400g/day) already provides me with about 40g of glutamine.

• While the theorists still cling to the idea that since glutamine helps clinical stress, it might help with exercise stress, it‚s important to note that exercise stress has got nothin‚ on surgery, cancer, sepsis, burns, etc. For example, when compared with downhill running or weight lifting, urinary nitrogen loss is 15x (1400%) greater in minor surgery, 25x (2400%) greater in major surgery, and 33x (3200%) greater in sepsis. When it comes to the immune response, it‚s about 9x (800%) greater with surgery. When it comes to metabolic increase, it‚s 7x (600%) greater with burn injury, and when it comes to creatine kinase release; it‚s about 2x (100%) greater with surgery. As I said, exercise has got nothin‚ on real, clinical stress. It‚s like trying to compare the damage inflicted by a peashooter and that inflicted by a rocket launcher.

• The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation. Folks, that's 90g per day for some lifters.

• The majority of the studies using glutamine supplementation in endurance athletes have shown little to no measurable benefit on performance or immune function.

• And with respect to glycogen replenishment in endurance athletes, it's interesting to note that the first study that looked at glycogen resynthesis using glutamine missed a couple of things. Basically, the study showed that after a few glycogen depleting hours of cycling at a high percentage of VO2 max interspersed with very intense cycle sprints that were supramaximal, a drink containing 8g of glutamine replenished glycogen to the same extent as a drink containing 61g of carbohydrate.

The problem was that during the recovery period, a constant IV infusion of labeled glucose was given (i.e., a little bit of glucose was given to both groups by IV infusion). While this isn't too big of a deal on its own since the infusion only provided a couple of grams of glucose, the other problem is that during glycogen depleting exercise, a lot of alanine, lactate, and other gluconeogenic precursors are released from the muscle.

What this means is that there's a good amount of glucose that will be formed after such exercise, glucose that will be made in the liver from the gluconeogenic precursors and that will travel to the muscle to replenish glycogen. Therefore, without a placebo group that receives no calories, carbohydrates, or glutamine, we have no idea of knowing whether or not the placebo would have generated the same amount of glycogen replenishment as the glutamine group or the glutamine plus carbohydrate group. To say it another way, perhaps there's a normal glycogen replenishment curve that was unaffected by any of the treatments.

• And finally, with respect to the claims that glutamine might increase cell swelling/volume (something I once believed was a reality), we decided to test this theory out in our lab using multifrequency bioelectric impedance analysis as well as magnetic resonance spectroscopy. The pilot data that's kicking around has demonstrated that glutamine supplementation has no effect on total body water, intracellular fluid volumes, or extracellular fluid volumes (as measured by mBIA) and has no effect on muscle volume (as measured by nMRS)...


and I have a ton more
 
OK...

Your posted results sincerely cast doubt over the idea that glutamine has any benefit in an exercise environment.

It also showed that:

1) It can be taken orally and plasma levels do increase (hence it is not destroyed in the gut)

2) Muscle cell tissue can in fact be tested for recovery in a quantifiable manner.

On a side note, I never argued whether glutamine worked - I have always been unsure.

Nelson, I will not argue about the efficacy of glutamine with you. However, your reasons for saying why it didn't never held water. Hopefully you have learned as much as I have here.

B-
 
Unless I am reading this wrong, it seems to me that muscle has very limited if any problems pulling glutamine from the bloodstream.

It would seem that this study contradicts the one mentioned above.

You still have not produced any of your own proof Nelson.

I still challenge you to show me proof to support your statement that glutamine does not survive the digestive tract.

You also made the assertion that muscle cell recovery is not quantifiable. I'm still waiting for proof in this as well.

You're not getting a free pass on this one.

B-


You must have come from BB.com, where children play "tag, you're it" and end it "good day sir" to pretend they're mature. We don;t roll like that. Present your case and/or shut up. Stop asking me or others to do your homework for you.

You obviously do not understand how logic works. You can not prove a negative. In other words, you can't prove there wasn't an elephant in my living room last night.

Show me the proof that glutamine increases muscle growth. It'd be easy. Rats fed supplemental glutamine would grow more. We'd all know it. But it doesn't happen. Instead, all you'll find is speculation from supplement companies.
 
OK...

Your posted results sincerely cast doubt over the idea that glutamine has any benefit in an exercise environment.

It also showed that:

1) It can be taken orally and plasma levels do increase (hence it is not destroyed in the gut)

2) Muscle cell tissue can in fact be tested for recovery in a quantifiable manner.

On a side note, I never argued whether glutamine worked - I have always been unsure.

Nelson, I will not argue about the efficacy of glutamine with you. However, your reasons for saying why it didn't never held water. Hopefully you have learned as much as I have here.

B-

Nice save. FYI John Berardi writes for the same people I wrote for 10 years ago. They're a joke. Yet, you find his words more relevant -- because it's not on a message board? Didn't someone say something about seeking the truth?

Conclusion: Glutamine doesn't work. I'm trying to save you money. Be grateful.
 
Nice save. FYI John Berardi writes for the same people I wrote for 10 years ago. They're a joke. Yet, you find his words more relevant -- because it's not on a message board? Didn't someone say something about seeking the truth?

Conclusion: Glutamine doesn't work. I'm trying to save you money. Be grateful.

No save. Its called being magnanimous.

I also took the time to read the several other posts above Bernardi's. You should too.

B-
 
Great thread fellas. While bantering back & forth over glutamine's effects,or lack thereof, many of us learned a lot about it. I for one will no longer be purchasing glutamine as it appears to have little to no effect on muscle development or recovery. Besides, who fucking needs glutamine when you have test & primo?? :evil:
 
Great thread fellas. While bantering back & forth over glutamine's effects,or lack thereof, many of us learned a lot about it. I for one will no longer be purchasing glutamine as it appears to have little to no effect on muscle development or recovery. Besides, who fucking needs glutamine when you have test & primo?? :evil:

Which leads us back to the original point. What supplements help on cycle? For the most part, the answer to that is, whatever supplement works. Creatine isn't necessary because it increases water weight. VIGOR is my product and it isn;t necessary because steroids increase RBC already. It's better to be used AFTER the cycle. But I'd say a multi and UNLEASHED are a must to make the most of it.
 
Which leads us back to the original point. What supplements help on cycle? For the most part, the answer to that is, whatever supplement works. Creatine isn't necessary because it increases water weight. VIGOR is my product and it isn;t necessary because steroids increase RBC already. It's better to be used AFTER the cycle. But I'd say a multi and UNLEASHED are a must to make the most of it.


Hum so your product so called UNLEASHED is a must? Lowering shbg IS A BAD IDEA ON CYCLE............ and i can prove my words son
 
You must have come from BB.com, where children play "tag, you're it" and end it "good day sir" to pretend they're mature. We don;t roll like that. Present your case and/or shut up. Stop asking me or others to do your homework for you.

You obviously do not understand how logic works. You can not prove a negative. In other words, you can't prove there wasn't an elephant in my living room last night.

Show me the proof that glutamine increases muscle growth. It'd be easy. Rats fed supplemental glutamine would grow more. We'd all know it. But it doesn't happen. Instead, all you'll find is speculation from supplement companies.

Show me one post where I said glutamine helped muscle growth.

I'll save you the time. I didn't.

Proving that glutamine does not make it intact through the gut is not proving a negative. It either does or it doesn't. I posted examples where testing showed that it did. You have not held up your end. I did my homework. You apparently have not or can not.

There is no logic more simple than fact or fiction.

I have shown my case with clear examples that glutamine levels do in fact increase after oral administration. My argument went no farther than that. I have made my case, you you tell me to put up or shut up. I went back and read this thread and found nothing from you other than global statements.

Look, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The vast majority of your advice is sound. You are even more than likely right about the affect of glutamine on the body (again a point I never argued), you were just wrong on how you got there.

We can keep up this fencing forever, but I will just end up getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all this typing and falsely blame it on a side effect of my GH supplementation.

If you feel you need the last word in all this, by all means take it. As long as it's not some ad hominem attack its all yours.

Peace,

B-
 
Great thread fellas. While bantering back & forth over glutamine's effects,or lack thereof, many of us learned a lot about it. I for one will no longer be purchasing glutamine as it appears to have little to no effect on muscle development or recovery. Besides, who fucking needs glutamine when you have test & primo?? :evil:

also the same reason i slow down to look at car accidents
 
i think most OTC supps are useless, if i take anything at all its..
protein
multi-v
fish oil
 
Show me one post where I said glutamine helped muscle growth.

I'll save you the time. I didn't.

Proving that glutamine does not make it intact through the gut is not proving a negative. It either does or it doesn't. I posted examples where testing showed that it did. You have not held up your end. I did my homework. You apparently have not or can not.

There is no logic more simple than fact or fiction.

I have shown my case with clear examples that glutamine levels do in fact increase after oral administration. My argument went no farther than that. I have made my case, you you tell me to put up or shut up. I went back and read this thread and found nothing from you other than global statements.

Look, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The vast majority of your advice is sound. You are even more than likely right about the affect of glutamine on the body (again a point I never argued), you were just wrong on how you got there.

We can keep up this fencing forever, but I will just end up getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all this typing and falsely blame it on a side effect of my GH supplementation.

If you feel you need the last word in all this, by all means take it. As long as it's not some ad hominem attack its all yours.

Peace,

B-

Okay, so it's a matter of splitting hairs here. Fair enough. We're cool. Bottom line: glutamine is not of great importance to bodybuilders.

Dave TSI : Most supps are worthless but many are a tremendous advantage to recovery, strength, libido, focus, hormonal balance, and general health -- if that matters. .
 
Which leads us back to the original point. What supplements help on cycle? For the most part, the answer to that is, whatever supplement works. Creatine isn't necessary because it increases water weight. VIGOR is my product and it isn;t necessary because steroids increase RBC already. It's better to be used AFTER the cycle. But I'd say a multi and UNLEASHED are a must to make the most of it.

Although creatine does have testosterone-like effects and causes some water weight,it doesn't act as a steroid hormone.Instead,it's a mediator of some of the androgens' anabolic effects.In fact,steroid users get far more out of their cycles if they take in massive amounts of creatine along with the drugs.Androgens are among the hormones that can force the entry of creatine into muscle cells.While there's a clear relationship between muscle strength gains and increases in muscle creatine stores.

Training increases the muscles sensitivity to the anabolic actions of creatine.T he anabolic effects of creatine are DIRECT,and not mediated by waterretention.In fact,in the 1970s American and Russian studies pointed out a DIRECT anabolic effect of creatine on muscle cells.)Testosterone increases the muscles'sensitivity to the anabolic properties of creatine in addition to enhancing the creatine buildup in muscle fibers.It's also obvious that part of the strength gains people experience while on steroids are mediated by an increase in muscle creatine stores.An interesting discovery A/S users have made is that they should dramatically increase their creatine intake during a cycle to boost the potency of the steroids.Thanks to creatine,people can build more muscle mass with fewer drugs.


There are probably good reasons for the increased creatine requirement when androgen levels are high.As mentioned above,steroids increase the muscle uptake of creatine,and if the muscles are ready to accept more creatine,why not give it to them?I also think that even though steroids enhance creatine synthesis,they may increase creatine degradation as well-so more creatine is used up every day.That could be due to an increase in muscle creatine turnover and also the fact that an elevated muscle protein synthesis rate will likely consume creatine at a faster rate.Other reasons for a higher creatine requirement may be indirect.Because the muscles of drug users are stronger and receive more training,they may waste greater amounts of creatine during training.Once inside the muscle,creatine provides not only an anabolic effect,but also a rapidly mobilized source of fuel.Muscle protein synthesis is a process that wastes great amounts of energy.Anabolism is an ATP-dependent process,which means that it's essential for protein synthesis.If the cellular level of ATP is reduced even a little,IT STOPS ANABOLISM.So even if you can increase the testosterone content of your muscles,nothing will happen if your ATP level is low.Creatine supports anabolism by providing energy to the muscle...
 
Thank you. Someone presenting real evidence. And look! It concurs what I've been saying. How about that.

So many issues to address -- where do I start?

As for mighty-musculus 's issue with aspirin, I'm not sure what your problem is. Aspitin was used for 100 years before they knew how it worked. Sure, now they can track that it effect prosaglandins which therefore sets off this chemical reaction and blah, blah, blah, but aspirin was not designed to do that. It was just something that DID it! That was my point. Avenacosides work, but it's not like there are a bunch of research teams trying to discover how it lowers SHBG. No money in that.

And not for nothin' but terms like; "You THINK you know what you're talking about!" And "You're full of shit!" And "You're wacko" ... are all insults. They offer no contrary debate. They're just petulant reactions. Try to exhibit more class in future posts, please.

Yes, And I am not going to keep repeating myself ether.
 
I think if everyone would stick to presenting their arguments with respect instead of directing attacks on each other when you have nothing to say, we can all have a much better argument / conversation and learn from each other.

I don't feel the need to stress that we need to keep this polite and professional.
 
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