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All in all, good post Nelson.


Nelson Montana said:
Of course, if we all got together in person we'd probably get along great. But in this enviorment, it's all about reactions.
Click to expand...
This is something I've said a lot on this forum. If you have an interest in physiology, athletics, and nutrition (as well as many other subjects) and like to discuss them, I gurantee you that you would enjoy sitting down face to face with me to do so.



In regard to your complaints:

"This all reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain. He said: "If you make people think you're making them think, they'll love you. But if you REALLY make them think, they'll dispise you."

Truer words have never been spoken and this board personifies the sentiment."

I agree. You must understand, however, that this cuts both ways. You are not immune to this Nelson. All of us think we are the center of the universe and we react adversly when our little world is shook. Subjectivly, you may be missing the fact that you are often as guilty of this as anyone of us here.





"Now, I on the other hand, am not interested in regurgitating inforation or telling people what they want to hear. My gig is to challange conventional thought and to offer efficaceous alternatives."

This is great. This is what drives progress. However, in making this your "gig" you are predisposing yourself to look for predominant theory to be wrong as opposed to pure truth.

You must understand that sometimes you will be wrong. Take this whole high GI thing. I know you still do not agree with me, but lets look at it from the "challanging conventional thought" point of view.

Your assertion is not just a challange to current theory - it is a retreat to old and outdated conventional thought. It is right out of the outdated textbooks that were tossed out in the 1980's. Your assertion is not cutting through the crap - it's a move backwards.

The "conventional thought" you are challanging in this case, and some other cases as well, is actually the well established and supported findings of those cutting edge researchers who challanged conventional thought before you.





"This brings us to the "prove it" mentality on these boards."
>
>
"As far as my failure to "explain" things. I think that's just a low blow that has become a cliche'. I explain plenty.

Again, this is your subjective observation of yourself. I do not ask for studies for everything - but I do seek references for that which defies science or well established principles. It would be foolish not to.

In addition, I do not believe you "explain plenty" in many occasions. I believe you re-state often. No bashing. This is what I percieve through my observation on this forum.




Perhaps some day we will meet. When we do, BE READY! :) I WILL challange you on certain issues! You will find that I will also be perfectly willing to listen and, no doubt, there will be much I can learn. What you must understand is that there is plenty you can learn from me as well.






Fukkenshredded, just pulled up your post in my "preview reply." Go back and check out my first post in this thread on page 1. What do you think of that recomendation? :)
 
Juice Authority said:
If Nelson actually took the time to speak with Fonz over the phone he would find that Fonz is not some arrogant Mr."Know it all", but rather a very nice and helpful guy. Fonz has helped countless people over the years here for fun and for free.
Click to expand...

You have Fonz's phone number? You lucky dog. :)

C-ditty
 
Nelson Montana said:

Well, I was through with tis thread, but this post was so articulate I had to respond.

I agree weth everything you say. The only contention would be with the perspective. And this is impossible for people to determine since I don't expect anyone to go through every post and analyze what transpired, so I can only give my perception.

I may make bold statements. I may even sound arrogent in doing so, But I NEVER -- NEVER attack another person, unless they have total disregard for any civility in the way they respond to me. Then, I admit, the gloves come off. I'm only human. And I'm in a precarious situation since many of my battles are against mods and most members are not going to get behind someone is at odds with the mods. There have been a few more ballsy individuals who have spoken up, and I thank them. But most will understandably sit back
and observe. And naturally, there will always be the guy who likes to get a cheap shot in when a man is down. It goes with the territory. Of course, if we all got together in person we'd probably get along great. But in this enviorment, it's all about reactions.

I believe you, like most members are using the thinking, "where there's smoke, there's fire." If most of Nelsons threads turn into flamefests, or if most threads involving Nelson are flamefests, it therefore must be Nelson's fault. But I maintain it is peoples reaction to me and the allowence -- dare I say the ENCOURAGEMENT of a couple of mods that allow it to be so. A good example is Juice's Clomid thread. All I said was that it would be great if we could discuss this without the negitivity, AND WITHOUT MAKING ANOTHER POST, there were already 4 or 5 antagonistic statements toward me. What does that tell you?

This all reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain. He said: "If you make people think you're making them think, they'll love you. But if you REALLY make them think, they'll dispise you."

Truer words have never been spoken and this board personifies the sentiment.

Case in point.

Fonz recently cut and pasted some literature from a supplement website, and presented it as an original idea. EVERYONE LOVED IT! Why? Because they didn't have to think. It was free useful information. Who cares if it's taken from somewher else? Give me my piece.

Now, I on the other hand, am not interested in regurgitating inforation or telling people what they want to hear. My gig is to challange conventional thought and to offer efficaceous alternatives. It comes with a price. To some, this is much appreciated. But to others, they despise it. They resent it. They reject it. Why? Because it forces them to think.

This brings us to the "prove it" mentality on these boards. Everyone wants to see studies. Well, a study is just a pre-existing notion. If all we did was accept pre-existing notions we'd all be using leeches and mercury to treat diseases. We must think progressively if we are to evolve. But most people like to stay right where they are. Oh sure, they want to THINK they're progressive. But they want their progress along with comfort. Sometimes you have to shatter the old to bring on the new.

As far as my failure to "explain" things. I think that's just a low blow that has become a cliche'. I explain plenty. But when explanations becomes demands, and then dares, and then antagonism, and then personal attacks, I refuse. And suddenly all the help I've provided is meanlingless. What have you done for me lately.

This is what upsets me. Not the fact that the attacks are against me. Who cares? What's psetting to me is when people use anger and hatred to diminish another human being. No one who read this thread can honestly say that Fonz's remarks were beneath the acceptable level for even the most uncooth individual. But the thread is about me. It's my fault. Citueside made claims that he knew weren't true. He even wrote to me to say that he did so because "others" did so. That would never hold up in a court of law, and Citrue is a lawyer. But he made that decision ayway. But it's about me. So it's okay.

Look, I'm no genius, but I know that everyone and anyone in the history of the world who had a new way of looking at things has been rejected by some people. Vince Gironda was loathed by a lot of people. But he was right. Take your pick -- Socrates, Pasteur, Van Gogh, Stravinsky...all rejected. They were the ones who thought differently. They were the "trouble makers." I wonder how long they'd last on the message boards.

I'm not in the catogory of these men. I'm just a writer who loves bodybuilding and loves sharing new ideas. But I'm also a guy who grew up in the 60's in Brooklyn New York. And where I come from, you don't take shit. You stick up for yourself. Somebody pushes, you push back harder. I'm sorry if it offends anyone. But that's me.

This ordeal has been draining. And it once again has made me realize that I'm spending too much time where I'm not wanted. Time for a little distance. I have other things I can do, need to do, should do. I just love bodybuilding so much and love it when someone gets a kick out of my work. It's addicting. But there are certain realities I must face.

Thank you for hanging in there, reading this post. But I know anything that is extracted from it will be short lived and within a day or two everyone fogets and goes back to seeking easy answers and searching for other people who will confirm their current beliefs. But that's the way of the world, isnt it?
Click to expand...

"Fonz recently cut and pasted some literature from a supplement website, and presented it as an original idea. EVERYONE LOVED IT! Why? Because they didn't have to think. It was free useful information. Who cares if it's taken from somewher else? Give me my piece".


Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall....seriously.

#1 People want things simplified so that they will be able to understand them better. I can put up posts with such huge amount of scientific jargon that very few people would understand them.

What excatly is the point of that?

Absolutely none.

This board is about EQUAL sharing of information. Not just between a select few with the necessary educational backgrounds.

If I see an explanation to ANY supplement that I deem to be concise, precise, and easy to understand AT ANY SITE I will use it. Its THAT simple. I'd rather everybody understand me than just a few dozen people.

And once again, you missed the ENTIRE point of my cholesterol post.

My post was aimed at providing REAL LIFE evidence of the effects of policosanol through a 2-month period involving 2 separate blood tests.

Its one thing to read...."This does this and that....blah, blah. blah"....from whatever site. And its another thing entirely to provide real-life evidence that supports the claims being made by those sites.

That little post right there Nelson took me 4 months to research. Yes, 4 entire months.

And you have the gall to call me a "cut&paste" guy?

LMFAO

You're simply out-classed by several people on here half your age, and thats what you can't stand. Just don't bother typing anymore because everything that comes from your keyboard I consider a cyber toxic event.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:

You're simply out-classed by several people on here half your age, and thats what you can't stand. Just don't bother typing anymore because everything that comes from your keyboard I consider a cyber toxic event.

Fonz
Click to expand...


That was a good one. 1 point for Fonz.
 
Can't we all just get along? Otherwise I am giving this guy full permission to go Hulkamaniac wild on your asses!

2O0I40GTLPYTJ.jpg
 
Eviscerator, looking stacked what are your current stats?
 
No its mixing protien shakes with cream or better yet throw in a stick of butter.

Wait a second why the fuck would I do that when I can go to Mcdonalds and get the caloric equivelant from a quarter pounder with cheese.
 
Jesus sweet ever-loving FUCK! I cant believe that I just read this post for the first time! The whole 11 pages ... probably took me almost a half hour. I feel fuckin wiped!!

This was like a big story unfolding. So what is going to happen next. You guys have to put some kinda closure to this? It seems like it was going in this direction near the end. Yes there were some gang ups, then there seemed to be some truths coming out.

I will make 1 comment. This is to you Nelson. I have never had a problem with you before, and I am not taking anyones side here. I usually enjoy reading your posts for the most part, they do get me thinking "outside the box" sometimes.

"Take your pick -- Socrates, Pasteur, Van Gogh, Stravinsky...all rejected. They were the ones who thought differently. They were the "trouble makers."

Yes ... it does take people like this to make new breakthrough discoveries. Look at Christopher Columbus for example. When he proposed to reach India by sailing west from Spain, he KNEW that the Earth was round. India was the source of precious spices and other rare goods, but reaching it by sailing east was difficlut, becaus Africa blocked the way. On a round globe, however, it he thought it should be possibel to reach India by sailing west, and this was wat Columbus proposed to do (FYI ... he wasn't the first one to suggest this).

Columbus first saw the islands of the "new world", landing in the Bahamas. Later in the month, he sailed to Cuba, and to Hispaniola (now Haiti). He thought he had reached the East Indies, the islands off Southeast Asia (silly columbus).

Contrary to popular belief, most educated individuals in the 15th century, and especially sailors, already knew that teh earth was round. What was not realised by Columbs, however, was just how big a globe it was. Columbus seriously understimated the size of the planet.

What I am trying to get at here is that these people at the time didnt try to prove these points for the sake of going against what others thought. But most importantly what I am trying to ge at, is that these great people with great breakthrough discoveries have MADE MISTAKES! They have often learned through trial and error, and sometimes it took them many tries and had to look at many different views of others to come up with their theories.

Am I suggesting that you be a little more open minded and take in what others may have to say or share? Well ... thats ultimately up to you to decide.

I am not taking any sides on this stupid argument. But ... it really does take a bigger man to acknowledge that he may be wrong or that others may be right. Sometimes you need to do this to grow intellectually and see the big picture. I am not saying to fess up to something that you dont believe in, but if you really do think that others may have a better point, it is a much more respected point to give credit where it belongs. If you honestly dont, then by all means hold your ground. I think that you should just try to see where other people are coming from sometimes. Give them a chance to explain.

Fuck ... sorry for the long ass reply, but after reading all of that I sure dont care. Just had to give my opinion after putting the energy in to read that.

Mavy
 
Can't much add anything to Mavy's s statement above. Very diplomatically put.
 
Mavy hits the nail on the head!

But I must ask this:

Why is that statement directed just to me?

Wh can't others keep an open mind as well as to what I say?

The truth of the matter is, most of my methodologies are not from some supreme scientific expertise (as others claim to have) but from good old trial and error. If others disagree, that's their perogative. But it is not their perogative to berate another human being. THAT was the problem with this thread. The actual difference of opinion is secondary. Regardless who you may side with, or who is even wrong or right, I believe Fonz stepped over the line of decency. No one else sees that? I'd rather be dead wrong than speak in a manner that he finds acceptable. It's sickening. But hopefully one day he'll grow up.

And a final note to Fonz: It took you 4 months of research to find that site and cut and paste the information???

Oh, you mean you had a blood test and 4 months later you had another. I've done that too and posted the results. So have others. It's not like you discovered penicillin you know.

You attack the simplicity of my posts yet defend your own posts that lack scientific explanations. Interesting. Then again, it's all about you , isn't it?

Look man, I don't care what you think of me or my ideas, but what do you say we just stay out of each other's way? It seems like you wait until a thread gets heated and then you come on with the insults and tell everybody how brilliant you are. It's getting old already. It offers nothing. Just go back to your little "cut and paste" posts that so many people seem to like and don't bother me and I won't bother you. Deal?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Mavy hits the nail on the head!

But I must ask this:

Why is that statement directed just to me?

Wh can't others keep an open mind as well as to what I say?

The truth of the matter is, most of my methodologies are not from some supreme scientific expertise (as others claim to have) but from good old trial and error. If others disagree, that's their perogative. But it is not their perogative to berate another human being. THAT was the problem with this thread. The actual difference of opinion is secondary. Regardless who you may side with, or who is even wrong or right, I believe Fonz stepped over the line of decency. No one else sees that? I'd rather be dead wrong than speak in a manner that he finds acceptable. It's sickening. But hopefully one day he'll grow up.

And a final note to Fonz: It took you 4 months of research to find that site and cut and paste the information???

Oh, you mean you had a blood test and 4 months later you had another. I've done that too and posted the results. So have others. It's not like you discovered penicillin you know.

You attack the simplicity of my posts yet defend your own posts that lack scientific explanations. Interesting. Then again, it's all about you , isn't it?

Look man, I don't care what you think of me or my ideas, but what do you say we just stay out of each other's way? It seems like you wait until a thread gets heated and then you come on with the insults and tell everybody how brilliant you are. It's getting old already. It offers nothing. Just go back to your little "cut and paste" posts that so many people seem to like and don't bother me and I won't bother you. Deal?
Click to expand...

I'm an engineer by profession Nelson. I dedicate myself to solving problems. Same thing applies here. You on the other hand are a writer with little knowledge of what he's talking about. If what I've been reading is true, you've done 2 pea-sized cycles yet you claim to be the "Guru" when it comes to AAS usage.
Now that I find quite hilarious. I might have a lot of knowledge when it comes to the science behind AAS, but I always pay attention to those people who have decades of experience regarding AAS. Over the years, I've learned a lot from them.
You on the other hand, have zero experience and zero scientific knowledge.......it just doesn't get worse than that IMO. Componding this problem even further, is the fact that you have a rather large propensity to not learn anything because you redefine the term narrow-minded. You just don't listen to anyone.

Anyways,

This is the chain of thoughts that went through my head for the cholesterol post:

1. Cholesterol levels are high while on AAS

2. Supplements A,B,C,D,E, and F have been shown to have an effect on cholesterol levels.

3. Take a pre-supplement blood test.

4. Measure the statistical variances that each supplement has on my cholesterol levels.

5. Eliminate the supplements that show little variance.

6. Stay on the one supplement that shows the highest statistical variance for a period of time.

7. Take another blood test and contrast to pre-supplement blood test.

See, the inherent problem here...is you have nothing else to do except sit on your ass all day long on the internet and bitch and moan, and call people names when they disagree with you. I attend grad school and I also play competitive soccer....so my free time is extremely limited.

The fact that I gave up my free time to do this test should give you a small inkling of what it means to actually have a passion for the sport(Or physiological enhancement in general). You certainly don't. You're just a greedy old man that thinks insulting me is going to get you anywhere. Its not. It'll simply get you banned faster. So please keep at it. The funny part is you don't even realize you're digging your own grave, which in retrospect is not exactly surprising considering your abrasive personality.

Fonz
 
Silent Method--

Yep. I agree with that advice.

One factor that has not really been addressed thogoughly in this entire debate is the issue of the time window. It is just as important to consider that the feeding in question be consumed within a certain time frame after the workout. Fifteen minutes tops, and five is best, if I remember correctly?

Maybe you could elaborate on this aspect a bit?
 
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There goes Fonz. Proving that he is misinformed once again.

I asked if we can stay out of each others way: You won't do it.

I ask that there be no more insults: You call me a narrow minded greedy old man.

Okay, let's take your points one by one.

It's time to play...


"EVERYONE SEE HOW WRONG FONZ CAN BE"


1: You say I did "2 little cycles".

WRONG

I did 2 little cycles prior to my competiting in the NPC Championships.


2: You seem to know me well enough to make an additional dispataging statement about me. (Notice the pattern here. The guy can't talk in non-condesending terms unless people kiss his ass).

I sit around all day?

Well, besides being a writer, I work as musician in New York, the zenith of culture, arts and entertainment. I play seven instruments. I also work as an actor having appearing on ABC, NBC, CBS, and have worked with top directors including Woody Allen. I've also worked as a model, a therapist, and an artist. I've done design for advertising firms. I also teach music. I have also raised a son who is quite succesfull and I have a beautiful wife.

But wait a minute...

FONZ GOES TO SCHOOL!

HE PLAYS SOCCOR!!!!

My god, what was I thinking!?!??!! Of course, you're more important! Soccor! WOW!!!


Now, I could go on, but actually, I don't like blowing my own horn. I'm doing this as a favor to FONZ. You see, in "grown up land" you learn not to make presumtions so quickly. You just come off looking like a dip shit. But you're a hot shot student and you think you know all the answers. You play soccor and you think people give a fuck. Put that on your resume when it's time to get a job and see how far it gets you.

The thing is this; I have actually done things in life. And maybe some day you will too. I hope you do great things. But that hasnt happened tet. And when you attempt to tear down others who have done more than you have even began to fathom, you just make a jackass out of yourself whether you know it or not. (Some of the senior members might help explain this to you).

You're a big shot on EF. That, is the extent of your credentials.

Get over yourself already.
 
Nelson Montana said:
<snip> Well, besides being a writer, I work as musician in New York, the zenith of culture, arts and entertainment. I play seven instruments. I also work as an actor having appearing on ABC, NBC, CBS, and have worked with top directors including Woody Allen. I've also worked as a model, a therapist, and an artist. I've done design for advertising firms. I also teach music. I have also raised a son who is quite succesfull and I have a beautiful wife.
Click to expand...
You play seven instruments? Just play them, or play them well? <j/k> Also, playing the kazoo doesn’t count. <j/k> All kidding aside, that is impressive. I play the guitar fairly well myself.
 
Where is High Intensity to make sense of this all... ?

Honestly, I don't really want to lock this thread ... but if Fonz feels he would like to... by all means, you have my vote.

C-ditty
 
benevolent anarchist said:
You play seven instruments? Just play them, or play them well? <j/k> Also, playing the kazoo doesn’t count. <j/k> All kidding aside, that is impressive. I play the guitar fairly well myself.
Click to expand...


Kazoo! I forgot that one!:)

Main instruments (the ones where I perform and record professionally ) are bass and drums and vocals.

I also play guitar, upright bass, piano, and harmonica.


Oh, one more point I forgot to address was Fonz claim that I have no experience. I'm not sure if this qualifies as "experience" but I was training, and training other people, before Fonz was alive. I was speaking with Dan Duchaine when Fonz was popping his first pimple. I have the phone numbers of just about everyone in the industry, both past and present. Who's numbers are in your phone book Fonz? Your soccor coach?

But hey, what do I know? You're the man Fonz. I know that because you keep saying so.
 
Citrue: Why lock the thread? Everyone is being civil besides Fonz. If this thread gets locked it would be for no other reason other than Fonz has been proven wrong, he's embarassed, and he won't face it like a man.
 
Nelson Montana said:



Kazoo! I forgot that one!:)

Main instruments (the ones where I perform and record professionally ) are bass and drums and vocals.

I also play guitar, upright bass, piano, and harmonica.


Oh, one more point I forgot to address was Fonz claim that I have no experience. I'm not sure if this qualifies as "experience" but I was training, and training other people, before Fonz was alive. I was speaking with Dan Duchaine when Fonz was popping his first pimple. I have the phone numbers of just about everyone in the industry, both past and present. Who's numbers are in your phone book Fonz? Your soccor coach?

But hey, what do I know? You're the man Fonz. I know that because you keep saying so.
Click to expand...

LOL@you speaking to Dan Duchaine...haha

You weren't even worthy enough to lick his shoes, let alone talk to him.

Don't even presume to be as smart as DD, because you're an absolute MORON compared to him.

See.....
"BodyOpus"

Thats what i call a REAL bodybuilding book. Cutting edge. Just downright amazing.

Yours on the other hand is a complete joke.

Talked to DD......LMFAO

This is getting better and better.

Everybody has caught up with your little internet charade Nelson. Consider your little honeymoon period over. You're a non-entity now.

Fonz
 
poantrex said:
Okay, I just want to voice that I believe Nelson adds nothing positive to this site - why is he here?
Click to expand...

I won't comment on that because its not my place to, but lets just say he's walking an exceedingly thin tight rope over a very tall building at the moment.

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


LOL@you speaking to Dan Duchaine...haha

You weren't even worthy enough to lick his shoes, let alone talk to him.

Don't even presume to be as smart as DD, because you're an absolute MORON compared to him.

See.....
"BodyOpus"


Thats what i call a REAL bodybuilding book. Cutting edge. Just downright amazing.

Yours on the other hand is a complete joke.

Talked to DD......LMFAO

This is getting better and better.

Everybody has caught up with your little internet charade Nelson. Consider your little honeymoon period over. You're a non-entity now.

Fonz
Click to expand...


Let's play...

"LET"S SEE HOW WRONG FONZ CAN BE -- PART II"

Notice how Fonz only insults me but doesn't dismiss the fact that I dealt with Dan personally. (Then he tries to throw you off track by praising Dan.)

Exactly how am I an non-entity? Because you think so? Are you that delusional.

Now lets count the times Fonz negates his own signature (which isn't really his quote, it's from Eleanor Roosevelt, but Fonz figured nobody knew that so he just took credit for it.)

He calls me a moron, total joke, not worthy of licking shoes. Classy. Oh so classy.
That's the best you got? How about being a man and addressing the issue instead of throwing hollow insults? You're wrong and you know it.


poantrex. I believe I can dig up about 100 posts where people have thanked me for the information I provided. Show us one post where you've helped anyone. Until then...ssssh.
 
In replay to Nelson's last post, last paragraph...

Fonz, thanks for the information you provided. It's been extremely helpful!

usta think fonz was a just flaming, but dammit, he's the one that keeps getting back to bodybuilding in his replies
 
Fukkenshredded said:
Silent Method--

Yep. I agree with that advice.

One factor that has not really been addressed thogoughly in this entire debate is the issue of the time window. It is just as important to consider that the feeding in question be consumed within a certain time frame after the workout. Fifteen minutes tops, and five is best, if I remember correctly?

Maybe you could elaborate on this aspect a bit?
Click to expand...
Sure. For all practicality you hit the nail on the head already. I have a meeting very shortly so I'll scrape some stuff off the top of my head.

Immediately after (but not necessarily during) exercise, the enzymes floating around in your gut and the general state of you digestive and endocrine systems are ripe for the absorption of the nutrients AS WELL AS the shift into the advantageous hormonal state the nutrients will push your body into.

During exercise, such response in it's entirety is blunted. Save post-exercise FOR post exercise. If the exercsie ceases abruptly, it's best to wait 5 minutes or so before consuming the meal. If we cool down (like we are suposed to! :)) the post exercise meal can be consumed without delay.

The longer one waits the less optimal the conditions in regard to taking advantage of the shake. I've seen research from Colgan (the man is the definition of cutting edge athletic nutrition) that suggests that 15 minutes is the perfect windo reference.




Sorry for the spelling errors...no time to check...got to run.....
 
So Nelson....Your a writer that DOESN'T know how to spell the word SOCCER correctly(the WRITER spells soccer "SOCCOR" 10 different times), Your also a musician that plays seven instruments, your also an actor thats been on ABC NBC CBS, Your also a model, a therapist (to who your self??), and an artist (more like CONartist)...And you forgot elitefitness.com GURU

I'd call someone with that many professsions a GYPSY. Get a real job, one job would be enough for you...even if it is a CONARTIST.

And just like your bullshit claims that you have no proof to back up....So is your claim to your relationship to D.D...Did he ever publish anything that gave reference to you? Mention you? Even piss on you? NOPE.

All that being said, your a chump, and probably dont have much to show for in life other than your little scheme to sell your book...This thread really exposed you for what you are...
 
Fuck all you guys that try to Shit on NELSON!
you are just jelous because he makes money and you don't.... is like Puffy Daddy said, "the more money we come around the more problems we see"... I started lifting weights about 3 weeks ago. and if it wasn't for Nelson's book I would have gotten scamed by those supplement f*ckers. I owe Nelson more money for helping me steer clear of the lies in bodybuilding, that I spend on his book....
I think that some of these so-called on-line steroid gurus have it all wrong... Just because they have been doing steroids for years and have had a chance to exchange information with hundreds of other bodybuilders over the past few years, about the effects of various drugs, it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about!!!
I was on Platnium chat today(I have money to spend, unlike most of you) I was chating with HUCK FINN and I was like..... " Hey HUCK, does Clomid work?" and then HUCK was like " It does for me" and then I was like " Nelson said it is worthless, I think it only works for you because of the placebo effect" and then HUCK was like "LOL"
I think some of you "gurus" are drinking HATORade.
for my first cycle, I was going to do a gram of test per week with 400mg of DECA and some D-bol for the first 4 weeks, then I was going to clean my receptors with a short cycle of Clambuteroil. but now I'm going to hold off on AS use for a couple more months until i max out my gains, then I'm going to do one of those short 4-week cycles that Neson suggested, I think that would be the best approach. I'm also going to hold off on HGH use, i don't think I need it just yet, I think after I graduate High School I'll be ready for HGH since it can make me grow and stuff.
Any way.... leave Neson alone, he is a good guy just trying to make a living.... Legaly! not like his brother Tony Montana, we all know what happened to him. hey Montana, say hello to your little friend for me.
 
I.B. Orpheus. said:
Fuck all you guys that try to Shit on NELSON!
you are just jelous because he makes money and you don't.... is like Puffy Daddy said, "the more money we come around the more problems we see"... I started lifting weights about 3 weeks ago. and if it wasn't for Nelson's book I would have gotten scamed by those supplement f*ckers. I owe Nelson more money for helping me steer clear of the lies in bodybuilding, that I spend on his book....
I think that some of these so-called on-line steroid gurus have it all wrong... Just because they have been doing steroids for years and have had a chance to exchange information with hundreds of other bodybuilders over the past few years, about the effects of various drugs, it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about!!!
I was on Platnium chat today(I have money to spend, unlike most of you) I was chating with HUCK FINN and I was like..... " Hey HUCK, does Clomid work?" and then HUCK was like " It does for me" and then I was like " Nelson said it is worthless, I think it only works for you because of the placebo effect" and then HUCK was like "LOL"
I think some of you "gurus" are drinking HATORade.
for my first cycle, I was going to do a gram of test per week with 400mg of DECA and some D-bol for the first 4 weeks, then I was going to clean my receptors with a short cycle of Clambuteroil. but now I'm going to hold off on AS use for a couple more months until i max out my gains, then I'm going to do one of those short 4-week cycles that Neson suggested, I think that would be the best approach. I'm also going to hold off on HGH use, i don't think I need it just yet, I think after I graduate High School I'll be ready for HGH since it can make me grow and stuff.
Any way.... leave Neson alone, he is a good guy just trying to make a living.... Legaly! not like his brother Tony Montana, we all know what happened to him. hey Montana, say hello to your little friend for me.
Click to expand...

LOL when you graduate High School? I wonder if Nelson would support your AS use. I don't think so, he would call you an idiot

Clambuteroil? Must be a new drug.

You just started lifting 3 weeks ago?

Let me ask you this, if someone surfed 10 times and another guy surfed 200 times assuming they are at the same level of intelligence, who's advice is more likely to be accurate?

Now replace surfing with anabolic steroids.
 
Fukkenshredded said:
I'm beginning to think Fonz and Nelson are one and the same person.
Click to expand...

I would bet $1,000,000 that they are not the same person.
 
I.B. I really don't even know where to start with you kid. How the fuck do you have 6 karma dots...damn I didn't know the karma system was THAT whack.
Really though, WTF is wrong with you man...clambuteroil? You started working out 3 weeks ago, shit your probably as big as Nelson after 20 years of BBing.

I'm sorry but really get a clue. I'm laughing so hard right now... Thanks kid you just brightened my whole day up with that post.
 
jubei said:
I.B. I really don't even know where to start with you kid. How the fuck do you have 6 karma dots...damn I didn't know the karma system was THAT whack.
Click to expand...

It's called the Chat forum.
 
you guys are just hating on me because you probaly got scamed by the supplement f*ckers, since you couldn't afford to buy nelson's book and you are not platnium. Yeah i have a lot of Karma because I give the Bros a lot of good advice. my mother gave me her credit card and said i could do research on elite as long as I didn't look at porn or meet with strangers. I look and post on the pictures of men and pictures of women forum all the time but she doesn't know. I met this cool guy named AAP I talk to him on PM all the time, this guys from the pictures of men forum sent me a PM saying that he has the Soloflex at his house and it makes you grow faster than regular weights so I'm coming over to work out with him, but I'm going to tell my mom that I'm studing at my friends house so she won't be mad. After i get out of High School and do my HGH cycle I'm going to be bigger than all of you, because you probably cant afford HGH because is like $20 IU but I found this website where the guy sells all this tuff witha credit card, so I'm going to order some gear and HGH from him cause I want to try just a littlebit before I do a whole cycle, and I'm getting some pins from 2thick but I have to send him money and I can't use the creditcard but my mon will give me the money because if she doesn't then i'm going to tell my dad that she was kissing her personal trainer then he is going to divorce her and not have to give her money so she has to do what i say.
 
I.B. Orpheus. said:
you guys are just hating on me because you probaly got scamed by the supplement f*ckers, since you couldn't afford to buy nelson's book and you are not platnium. Yeah i have a lot of Karma because I give the Bros a lot of good advice. my mother gave me her credit card and said i could do research on elite as long as I didn't look at porn or meet with strangers. I look and post on the pictures of men and pictures of women forum all the time but she doesn't know. I met this cool guy named AAP I talk to him on PM all the time, this guys from the pictures of men forum sent me a PM saying that he has the Soloflex at his house and it makes you grow faster than regular weights so I'm coming over to work out with him, but I'm going to tell my mom that I'm studing at my friends house so she won't be mad. After i get out of High School and do my HGH cycle I'm going to be bigger than all of you, because you probably cant afford HGH because is like $20 IU but I found this website where the guy sells all this tuff witha credit card, so I'm going to order some gear and HGH from him cause I want to try just a littlebit before I do a whole cycle, and I'm getting some pins from 2thick but I have to send him money and I can't use the creditcard but my mon will give me the money because if she doesn't then i'm going to tell my dad that she was kissing her personal trainer then he is going to divorce her and not have to give her money so she has to do what i say.
Click to expand...
Are you real?
 
LMFAO...Bro you are fucking awesome.
 
I.B. Orpheus. said:
Fuck all you guys that try to Shit on NELSON!
you are just jelous because he makes money and you don't.... is like Puffy Daddy said, "the more money we come around the more problems we see"... I started lifting weights about 3 weeks ago. and if it wasn't for Nelson's book I would have gotten scamed by those supplement f*ckers. I owe Nelson more money for helping me steer clear of the lies in bodybuilding, that I spend on his book....
I think that some of these so-called on-line steroid gurus have it all wrong... Just because they have been doing steroids for years and have had a chance to exchange information with hundreds of other bodybuilders over the past few years, about the effects of various drugs, it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about!!!
I was on Platnium chat today(I have money to spend, unlike most of you) I was chating with HUCK FINN and I was like..... " Hey HUCK, does Clomid work?" and then HUCK was like " It does for me" and then I was like " Nelson said it is worthless, I think it only works for you because of the placebo effect" and then HUCK was like " Maybe" SEE... even HUCK FINN can admit that he is wrong and Nelson is right.
I think some of you "gurus" are drinking HATORade.
for my first cycle, I was going to do a gram of test per week with 400mg of DECA and some D-bol for the first 4 weeks, then I was going to clean my receptors with a short cycle of Clambuteroil. but now I'm going to hold off on AS use for a couple more months until i max out my gains, then I'm going to do one of those short 4-week cycles that Neson suggested, I think that would be the best approach. I'm also going to hold off on HGH use, i don't think I need it just yet, I think after I graduate High School I'll be ready for HGH since it can make me grow and stuff.
Any way.... leave Neson alone, he is a good guy just trying to make a living.... Legaly! not like his brother Tony Montana, we all know what happened to him. hey Montana, say hello to your little friend for me.
Click to expand...

OMG!!!! This was the funniest damn post I've read in a while. I especially enjoyed his reference to Huck, Hatorade, Tony Montana, and Clambuteroil :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol:
 
Fukkenshredded said:
I'm beginning to think Fonz and Nelson are one and the same person.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that be funny :D Sort of like that movie Identity with John Cusak! LOL!
 
I.B. Orpheus. said:
I think that some of these so-called on-line steroid gurus have it all wrong... Just because they have been doing steroids for years and have had a chance to exchange information with hundreds of other bodybuilders over the past few years, about the effects of various drugs, it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about!!!
Click to expand...

Ok.....that by far is the stupidest statement I have ever read since I came on the boards.

I guess you don't understand the concept of a DISCUSSION board.

I think some of you "gurus" are drinking HATORade.
for my first cycle, I was going to do a gram of test per week with 400mg of DECA and some D-bol for the first 4 weeks, then I was going to clean my receptors with a short cycle of Clambuteroil. but now I'm going to hold off on AS use for a couple more months until i max out my gains, then I'm going to do one of those short 4-week cycles that Neson suggested, I think that would be the best approach. I'm also going to hold off on HGH use, i don't think I need it just yet, I think after I graduate High School I'll be ready for HGH since it can make me grow and stuff.
Any way.... leave Neson alone, he is a good guy just trying to make a living.... Legaly! not like his brother Tony Montana, we all know what happened to him. hey Montana, say hello to your little friend for me.
Click to expand...

Real smart. GH levels peak at age 21. You graduate HS at 18 and you think its a good idea to run GH then....???? LOL........you best read up a little bit more before you end up hurting yourself.

And oh yeah.........I'm going to be 10 feet tall, 300lbs, and run the 100m dash on 7.0s after a couple of those amazing Nelson 4-weekers...... :)

I hope your post was some kind of sadistic sarcasm because if it wasn't........delete yourself, and save us the trouble of ignoring you

Fonz
 
Fonz said:


Ok.....that by far is the stupidest statement I have ever read since I came on the boards.

I guess you don't understand the concept of a DISCUSSION board.



Real smart. GH levels peak at age 21. You graduate HS at 18 and you think its a good idea to run GH then....???? LOL........you best read up a little bit more before you end up hurting yourself.

And oh yeah.........I'm going to be 10 feet tall, 300lbs, and run the 100m dash on 7.0s after a couple of those amazing Nelson 4-weekers...... :)

I hope your post was some kind of sadistic sarcasm because if it wasn't........delete yourself, and save us the trouble of ignoring you

Fonz
Click to expand...

he was joking
 
IB is JOKING. Come on people; the clues are right in front of you.

"Clambutteroil"?? That's a dead give away in itself. Also, all the bad spelling, bad grammer, rediculous steroid and HGH usage before even getting out of HS are pretty good indicators he is just yanking your chains.
 
BigAndy69 said:
Lol, it was funny. I had a feeling but who knows.
Click to expand...

After being on the boards for 4 years...I can honestly say one thing.....

I have not seen it all. And nothing is too weird to be true.

Fonz
 
Fonz is just like drinking massive amounts of HATORade, I was on Platnium chat today and i was like: " Hey fonz" and then he was like "what?" then i was like "HATORade.... is it in you?" and then Fonz was like "My sweat is green with HATORade" ...
I think he was mad at me and stuff cause he never read Nelson's book so he got Scamed by those supplement f*ckers, and then I looked on the platnium search engine(cause I pay for it) and there was this post of Fonz when he was a newbie asking if he should shoot himself with the Finaplix-H gun.... and then he got flamed like a crakpipe by all the Gurus, but then he like got embarased and stuff, started getting knowledge and giving good advice and bought all of George's books so he got smart, but E2 made a post about how Fonz became a guru, and he got mad... One day I'm going to be smart enough to become a Mod, so i can argue with Nelson about Clomid and stuff.... I think fonz shouldn't hate, he should congratulate. and those are shiti looking shades you are wearing in you Avantar.




Cheerio
 
I dunno but whatever anyone has been or not been in the past is not progress just like training?????

shouldn't we always try to learn an get better

if so, then I think FONZ is a testament to that human endevour

whatever he was before he knows his shit know, and not only that he is 10 fold stonger because of it, I spot no weakness

then again he always appeared smart to me =)


not focusing on the invividuals here I.B. so please do not take offense just focusing on the premise of learning and becoming learned, the mind and body and spirit respond to a need

and if the will is willing, dramatic things can happen

this goes for anyone again forget the idividuals involved and think about the idea =)

take care
 
OMEGA said:
I dunno but whatever anyone has been or not been in the past is not progress just like training?????

shouldn't we always try to learn an get better

if so, then I think FONZ is a testament to that human endevour

whatever he was before he knows his shit know, and not only that he is 10 fold stonger because of it, I spot no weakness

then again he always appeared smart to me =)


not focusing on the invividuals here I.B. so please do not take offense just focusing on the premise of learning and becoming learned, the mind and body and spirit respond to a need

and if the will is willing, dramatic things can happen

this goes for anyone again forget the idividuals involved and think about the idea =)

take care
Click to expand...




You like Dragon Ball-Z ??? WOW DUDE! YOUR AVAReTAR LOOKS COOL MAN!
I like it when Goku fight Fagita and they fly, then they stop to POWER UP they are like Arrrrrrrrhhghghrhr and then the other guy is powering up and he goes like ARRRRRgrgrgrgrgrg and then the other guys gets like ripping biceps like he is using HGH and then goes like ARRRRRRggggggg and then the other guy starts to get on fire like if he is Hot becuase he is using DNP and then he goes like ARRRRRRRRRGGG and then the episode ends and the guy is like "Will Goku beat Fagita? watch tomorrow and find out" then I have to go do my homework,.
 
yes I wont apologize for it, I have lost many girlfreinds becuase if my love for this show

,but I do indeed love it watch five consequetive episodes and you'll be hooked, is it stupid at times???? yes
is it good at its core messgae and what it tries to teach kids? abslolutley


yes its a cartoon, I don't care =)
its by far the best cartoon to come out for kids proabably ever.
 
DBZ is the shiznit. I have probably watched every single episode too.
 
if you can set aside your "mature ego" and just give it a chance you'll apreciatte something about it =)

I think with DB+BBZ+DBGT + extra movies+ plus extra episodes

were talking about 600 plus 20 minute episodes all in one long interconnected story

in a nutshell it about staying good in the face of adversity and evil
either within your self or against others.
on top of it you have to balance your self out and help others to rise to a level of being a true hero

thats what are kids should try to aspire to

but now its just about getting the next cool toy, and the indusrty seeks to condition our kids to be a bunch of self interested materilistic bastards, so they can feed the market economy through purchase of goods that tell our children they will be better if they just get this next "thingamabob"
 
BBBWWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!! I just spent the last 10 minutes laughing HAHAHAHHA I.B. you are a crackup man seriously thanks for the laugh!!!!!! Oh that was funny as!!!!

And you guys that r arguing are pretty funny as well, a lot of energy for typing there!!!!

I wanna pay to see the monkey do a shit hahahahahahaha!!!!
 
Nelson Montana said:



Let's play...

"LET"S SEE HOW WRONG FONZ CAN BE -- PART II"

Notice how Fonz only insults me but doesn't dismiss the fact that I dealt with Dan personally. (Then he tries to throw you off track by praising Dan.)

Exactly how am I an non-entity? Because you think so? Are you that delusional.

Now lets count the times Fonz negates his own signature (which isn't really his quote, it's from Eleanor Roosevelt, but Fonz figured nobody knew that so he just took credit for it.)

He calls me a moron, total joke, not worthy of licking shoes. Classy. Oh so classy.
That's the best you got? How about being a man and addressing the issue instead of throwing hollow insults? You're wrong and you know it.


poantrex. I believe I can dig up about 100 posts where people have thanked me for the information I provided. Show us one post where you've helped anyone. Until then...ssssh.
Click to expand...

Can't believe I missed this reply.....

"poantrex. I believe I can dig up about 100 posts where people have thanked me for the information I provided. Show us one post where you've helped anyone. Until then...ssssh."

100 posts on what?

Let me take a gander...."Can I drink Winny"......most likely.

"Exactly how am I an non-entity? Because you think so? Are you that delusional".

Non-entity means nobody cares about what you have to say anymore. Hopefully your pea-sized intellect will comprehend this. Everybody now knows you don't care about anything but promoting your book. You're not here to advance the science of bodybuilding, or to advance the science of supplements. You're here for money pure and simple. The fact that you don't admit this openly is quite funny.......do you seriously think people are that naive? I seriosuly hope not.

"Now lets count the times Fonz negates his own signature (which isn't really his quote, it's from Eleanor Roosevelt, but Fonz figured nobody knew that so he just took credit for it.)"

Don't go there again...because I already severely steamrolled over one of you internet cronies when he tried to accuse me of plagiarism. I will show no mercy doing the same thing to you.

I suggest you look the post up before I make you look like a fool for the upteenth time.

And no offense, but for a "writer"(I say that term loosely in your case).....your vocabulary isn't exactly impressive. I know first year english lit. students who can write far better than you can.

"He calls me a moron, total joke, not worthy of licking shoes. Classy. Oh so classy.
That's the best you got? How about being a man and addressing the issue instead of throwing hollow insults? You're wrong and you know it."

I reserve my respect for those that have earned it. Respect is earned, not simply given away. And you have yet to earn it. Writing a book does not enttitle you in any way to earn my respect.

All I can honestly say, if I turn out to be as materialistic and full of himself as you are at age 50, I'd jump off the tallest building i could find ASAP.

Thats my final word on the matter.

Fonz
 
;)

So as a recap to this entire post :

Silent Method said:
Are you looking for meal supplementation or post-exercise recovery drinks?


Most "mass gainers" you will find are simply combinations of very high glycemic carbohydrates, protein, and maybe some fat. Quite frankly, they suck for so called "meal replacement." Eat them frequently and they will pack on the same kind of mass as load of sugar cookies and milk.

If you are looking for a good post-exercise recovery/anabolism stimulatory drink, many of these mass gainers fit the bill quite nicely.


If you are looking for what the current science says is the most optimal post-exercise recovery drink, shoot for something that has a 4 to 1 ratio of high glycemic carbohydrate to high BV protein. A good combo would be maltodextrin (which has the ability to rapidly restore muscle glycogen during post-exercise conditions without throwing out exessive free radicals) and a quality whey such as hydrolized whey, ion exchange, or CFM.

For a recreational athlete, 100 grams of maltodextrin and 25 grams of a good whey fit the bill nicely. For an advanced athlete engaged in high intensity training, double those numbers for 200 grams of maltodextrin and *50 grams of protein.

*Please note that 50 grams of protein as prescribed here WILL NOT be fully absorbed UNLESS a hydrolized whey is used.


Small amounts of fat may be used, but don't go overboard as they will slow the absorption of both the carbohydrate and protein - both of which your body will attempt to absorb like a sponge post-exercise.
Click to expand...
And a thanks to Fukkenshredded for bringing up the issue of a time-window in which this nutrient combo works it's anabolic magic. Hit it right after exercise within 15 minutes. Enjoy.:D
 
Silent Method said:
;)

So as a recap to this entire post :


And a thanks to Fukkenshredded for bringing up the issue of a time-window in which this nutrient combo works it's anabolic magic. Hit it right after exercise within 15 minutes. Enjoy.:D
Click to expand...

And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you're on the threadmil or walking home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout? What if the workout is 30 minutes or one hour? When does the 15 minutes start? See, these are the points that make the whole issue un-gaugeable.

Fonz: I'm not even going to address your points, because they're too idiotic to do so. You are a plagerist. It's been proven. Anyone can do a search and find out that even your signiture is plagerized. You can't show one time I plagerized something. You just make idle threats. And you give the most irresponsible advice of anyone on this board -- except in cases where you just offer mundane advice (under the pretense that you've conducted exaustive studies) that anyone can find with a simple search.

Now let's see if you can keep your word and not say anything else on this matter -- not that you've said anything worthwhile up to this point.
 
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Nelson Montana said:
And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you'r on the threadmil or waling home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout? What if the workout is 30 minutes or one hour? When does the 15 minutes start? See, these are the points that make the whole issue un-gaugeable.
Click to expand...
I thought you said glycogen replenishment didn't matter? Why are you even addressing their points?:o

"And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you'r on the threadmil or waling home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout?"
Why don't you ask fukkenshredded or silent method? Actually I think they already addressed how the body "knows" it's 15 minutes after exercise.

Unguageable? Just that you don't get it, or fail to admit that you get it, doesn't mean it isn't valid. That's akin to someone rejecting evolution because they can't/don't see how it could possibly work. Fukkenshredded addressed your points. It doesn't seem that you gave any thought to it.
 
OK, time for IB to chime in and back Nelson while simultaniously rejecting evolution and describing DBZ fight scenes.

Seriously, this is getting tiresome. Please just let this thread die.
 
plornive said:
I thought you said glycogen replenishment didn't matter? Why are you even addressing their points?:o

"And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you'r on the threadmil or waling home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout?"
Why don't you ask fukkenshredded or silent method? Actually I think they already addressed how the body "knows" it's 15 minutes after exercise.

Unguageable? Just that you don't get it, or fail to admit that you get it, doesn't mean it isn't valid. That's akin to someone rejecting evolution because they can't/don't see how it could possibly work. Fukkenshredded addressed your points. It doesn't seem that you gave any thought to it.
Click to expand...


Your first sentance makes no sense. Why don't YOU tell me how you can gauge exactly how much lygogen has been lost at a specific time after a workout. You don't know what you're talking about, but you keep talking.

Your second sentance is the most un-analogeus comparison I've ever read...

I tried to address the points and you say I didn't give it any thought when the truth is you are incapable of understanding it.
Actually I dont believe you and some of the others are that stupid. You ust don't WANT to learn. Someone makes a post that suggests the way to gain mass is to take in more protein, increase good fats and not neglect carbs (i.e. eat more) and everyone gives him karma.

I'm not looking for karma. I just thought I could help. But, you can drag a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


















Now watch, someone will say, "I thought you didn't like using EQ and you can't drink it!"
 
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The only way to settle this argument is for all the main players to meet in an agreed upon location and form a line. There they will, after an expert examination to determine no doping has occured, urinate with as much force as possible.

The subject with the furthest urine landing wins.

This is referred to as a pissing contest, it's commonly used througout the world to settle scientific disputes.
 
genarr3 said:
The only way to settle this argument is for all the main players to meet in an agreed upon location and form a line. There they will, after an expert examination to determine no doping has occured, urinate with as much force as possible.

The subject with the furthest urine landing wins.

This is referred to as a pissing contest, it's commonly used througout the world to settle scientific disputes.
Click to expand...


Agreed! But I ask to be excluded simply for the fact that every post I've made was not to prove I'm right. I know I'm right. I was to just defend myself against a barrage a vicious personal attacks and hopefully in doing so, make more members aware that Fonz is a disturbed individual with illusion of grandeur.

Healthy adults don't go around bragging about how smart they are. And no one past the ninth grade uses the words "owning" when debating an issue. Some of the others who have chimed in here are just little ball breakers who don't know any better. I would be curious as to what Silent Method will say about gauging when the body needs that magical high GH drink. If he doesn't understand that, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Eiter way doesn't make one fucking iota of difference. But Fonz will still be Fonz.

Come on genarr, step up to the plate. You know what's going on here.
 
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This will go on forever, there's zero room for agree to disagree on this thread, and if you don't agree with me you're an asshole.

It's good to have some "outside the box" opinions. They need not be beaten into submission. I've noticed an anti-Clomid trend as of late, I think the jury is still out on it, but it has me trying different things. If I'm not mistaken Nelson started that.

There's some good information on this thread if you can weed through the childish bullshit, and there's way too much of it. A lot of it coming from sources that really shouldn't be engaging in it. It makes you look bad. Takes you down a notch on my respect ladder.

As to the posters chiming in with witty criticisms, use your real handle and be a man. How much of a coward are you? It's the Internet for gods sake.
 
I can pee for over 12 feet after drinking beer. Its true...well maybe..I cant remember I was too drunk...but I know I can write my name in snow with my pee TOP THAT!
 
This is the thread that never ends, and it goes on and on my friend, some people starting singing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it forever just because this is thread that never ends.....
 
Nelson Montana said:
And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
How does it know if you're on the threadmil or walking home from the gym?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
Is it determined by low glycogen?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
What if the workout is 30 minutes or one hour?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
When does the 15 minutes start?
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Nelson Montana said:
See, these are the points that make the whole issue un-gaugeable.
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
 
kronk said:
I can pee for over 12 feet after drinking beer. Its true...well maybe..I cant remember I was too drunk...but I know I can write my name in snow with my pee TOP THAT!
Click to expand...
Write your name? Sorry bro that's a different competition. It's like comparing figure skating to the long jump. Everyone knows that the long jump is a better test of athletic prowess.
 
genarr3 said:

Write your name? Sorry bro that's a different competition. It's like comparing figure skating to the long jump. Everyone knows that the long jump is a better test of athletic prowess.
Click to expand...

Pfft... :rolleyes:

Do you have any references? No you don't because they don't exist.

Everyone knows that figure skating is more athletically demanding. I have 20 years experience in this field and I have talked to many pros. Tonya Harding supports what I say, she even thinks I'm cute.
 
genarr3 said:

Write your name? Sorry bro that's a different competition. It's like comparing figure skating to the long jump. Everyone knows that the long jump is a better test of athletic prowess.
Click to expand...

I truly don't think its all together different. Here are some statistics and information to back my claims:

"The winter olympics newest demonstration sport has a long and fabled tradition. From the frozen north comes Snow Peeing! Although not yet an official sport, Snow Peeing dates back to prehistoric times. Cave drawings found in Scotland depict large scale competitions... "

Snow Peeing

Here is a quote:

"It's as Real as Ice Dancing!"

After some harsh words from the American press, U.S. Pee Team co-captain Larry "No Drip" Roberts made the following statement, "It's a sport. Have you seen ice dancing? Have you seen curling for Christ's sake? How about that gymnastics crap when they're running around with that ribbon? I'm sick of this holier than thou attitude from the media and my fellow athletes." Snow peeing does have a long history in those countries with an abundance of snow and beer, but is a relative newcomer as a competitive sport in the U.S

I rest my case..ice dancers, figure skaters, long pee's aint got nothing on the snow pee!
 
kronk said:


I truly don't think its all together different. Here are some statistics and information to back my claims:

"The winter olympics newest demonstration sport has a long and fabled tradition. From the frozen north comes Snow Peeing! Although not yet an official sport, Snow Peeing dates back to prehistoric times. Cave drawings found in Scotland depict large scale competitions... "

Snow Peeing

Here is a quote:

"It's as Real as Ice Dancing!"

After some harsh words from the American press, U.S. Pee Team co-captain Larry "No Drip" Roberts made the following statement, "It's a sport. Have you seen ice dancing? Have you seen curling for Christ's sake? How about that gymnastics crap when they're running around with that ribbon? I'm sick of this holier than thou attitude from the media and my fellow athletes." Snow peeing does have a long history in those countries with an abundance of snow and beer, but is a relative newcomer as a competitive sport in the U.S

I rest my case..ice dancers, figure skaters, long pee's aint got nothing on the snow pee!
Click to expand...

Here you go again relying on personnal insults. You are a liar, I never said ice skating is more athletic than snow peeing. You know what I meant; ice skating is just as athletic as snow peeing.

Some people refuse to beleive the truth. I know the truth, most of you are idiots and you listen to "vets" and "mods". Please. I have 20 years experience in both sports and many big names support my ideas inculding Tonya Harding and Brian Boitano.

Get off your high horse.
 
Silent Method said:
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
Click to expand...

Apparently I gave you too much credit. I thought if I gave you a logical response, you'd respond logically. But you can't. You are incapable of it. Your loss.

genarr made a good point. I think most of the people here listen and discern, but most of the people who post aren't really looking to learn or share ideas. They're looking to hide behind an internet persona and be disruptive. They want attention.
In some cases they just want to back the guy whohas the momentum but in some cases their goal is to be "king of the boards."

Grow up guys. This is nothing. This is the internet where an idiot can say anything. It doesn't matter if it's Steven Hawking or some kid in grade school. They both have equal say, except that the grade school kid will have more friends to chime in and say what a jerk Steven Hawking is. It's meaningless. But I hope you're happy thinking that you've accomplished something. In reality all you've accomplished is refusing to have a better understand of things -- the very essense of what these boards are supposed to be about. Instead, you're this weeks hot shot on the anabolic forum. Be proud.

It's a shame. These boards are kind of like Communisim. In theory ,it's a wonderful idea but it just doesn't work.
 
kronk said:


I truly don't think its all together different. Here are some statistics and information to back my claims:

"The winter olympics newest demonstration sport has a long and fabled tradition. From the frozen north comes Snow Peeing! Although not yet an official sport, Snow Peeing dates back to prehistoric times. Cave drawings found in Scotland depict large scale competitions... "

Snow Peeing

Here is a quote:

"It's as Real as Ice Dancing!"

After some harsh words from the American press, U.S. Pee Team co-captain Larry "No Drip" Roberts made the following statement, "It's a sport. Have you seen ice dancing? Have you seen curling for Christ's sake? How about that gymnastics crap when they're running around with that ribbon? I'm sick of this holier than thou attitude from the media and my fellow athletes." Snow peeing does have a long history in those countries with an abundance of snow and beer, but is a relative newcomer as a competitive sport in the U.S

I rest my case..ice dancers, figure skaters, long pee's aint got nothing on the snow pee!
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I expected from you, a link to a biased site promoting snow peeing. You are obviously in this just to promote your book "Snow peeing made easy". That sport is riddled with corruption, I can point to the recent Russian/French deal that we all know about. Anytime judges are involved the results are always in question. There is also an unfair advantage to the colder climate countries. Where is the African snow pee team supposed to practice? Dirt? It has a different consistency then snow. I'm not going to come right out and say it, but there could be some racism involved.
Now peeing for distance is indisputable. The furthest urine landing wins. All can practice with no one having an advantage. As most pee athletes are not professional and holding down jobs to support their families, they can pee anywhere in the workplace if they so choose. Although out of respect for their employers they should avoid carpeted areas.
This is a growing sport. The less powerful pee athlete can focus on their pee accuracy, and participate in the growing sport of pee combat.
In the end it will turn out that I'm right and you're wrong. Snow peeing will go the way of fecal tossing.
 
genarr3 said:

This is exactly what I expected from you, a link to a biased site promoting snow peeing. You are obviously in this just to promote your book "Snow peeing made easy". That sport is riddled with corruption, I can point to the recent Russian/French deal that we all know about. Anytime judges are involved the results are always in question. There is also an unfair advantage to the colder climate countries. Where is the African snow pee team supposed to practice? Dirt? It has a different consistency then snow. I'm not going to come right out and say it, but there could be some racism involved.
Now peeing for distance is indisputable. The furthest urine landing wins. All can practice with no one having an advantage. As most pee athletes are not professional and holding down jobs to support their families, they can pee anywhere in the workplace if they so choose. Although out of respect for their employers they should avoid carpeted areas.
This is a growing sport. The less powerful pee athlete can focus on their pee accuracy, and participate in the growing sport of pee combat.
In the end it will turn out that I'm right and you're wrong. Snow peeing will go the way of fecal tossing.
Click to expand...

WE must also realisze that snow peeing is still only popular among other snow pee'ers and will most likely not be accepted by the general public. Attendance is way down even at the elite level compititions. Sure, last year Long Dong Daniels was senational -- but ask the average person who Long Dong Daniels is, and they haven't got a clue! I say it's the money. If there was more money given to these athletes it would elevate their status. As it is, by the time they pay for beer, lasix, and snow shovels, they barely have enough to cover expenses. Fucking Joe Weider. It's all his fault.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Apparently I gave you too much credit. I thought if I gave you a logical response, you'd respond logically. But you can't. You are incapable of it. Your loss.
Click to expand...

Nelson, in all seriousness I meant what I said. "Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns."

Your comments to which I made the reply demonstrate a lack of understanding of exercise and physiological response patterns - period. No slam, no shit.

Nelson Montana said:
genarr made a good point. I think most of the people here listen and discern, but most of the people who post aren't really looking to learn or share ideas. They're looking to hide behind an internet persona and be disruptive. They want attention.
In some cases they just want to back the guy whohas the momentum but in some cases their goal is to be "king of the boards."

Grow up guys. This is nothing. This is the internet where an idiot can say anything. It doesn't matter if it's Steven Hawking or some kid in grade school. They both have equal say, except that the grade school kid will have more friends to chime in and say what a jerk Steven Hawking is. It's meaningless. But I hope you're happy thinking that you've accomplished something. In reality all you've accomplished is refusing to have a better understand of things -- the very essense of what these boards are supposed to be about. Instead, you're this weeks hot shot on the anabolic forum. Be proud.

It's a shame. These boards are kind of like Communisim. In theory ,it's a wonderful idea but it just doesn't work.
Click to expand...
The obvious first reaction to this is "YES YES! I AGREE!"

The next reaction, the one that baffles me, is why, having written that can you not SEE it? Your writting about yourself Nelson.


You simply lack the knowledge to debate head to head on this Nelson. I know that sounds like a personal slap in the face. Get over it. There should be no shame in legetimate ignorance given that you attempt to correct it. Arrogance, however, is quite disgraceful.
 
Silent Method said:


Nelson, in all seriousness I meant what I said. "Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns."

Your comments to which I made the reply demonstrate a lack of understanding of exercise and physiological response patterns - period. No slam, no shit.


The obvious first reaction to this is "YES YES! I AGREE!"

The next reaction, the one that baffles me, is why, having written that can you not SEE it? Your writting about yourself Nelson.


You simply lack the knowledge to debate head to head on this Nelson. I know that sounds like a personal slap in the face. Get over it. There should be no shame in legetimate ignorance given that you attempt to correct it. Arrogance, however, is quite disgraceful.
Click to expand...



I'm glad you feel that way. It means there's hope that will try to do something about your lack of understanding in this matter. I forgive your ignorance. You simply can't comprehend the components. No slam. You're still young. You think I base everything solely on personal experience because you can't see beyond your own personal experience It's called "projecting."

One more time: I have over two hundred published works in this field. I have the endorsements of some of the top people in the industry. You, are a nobody on the internet who says I'm wrong. Fine. We have a difference of opinion. Yours just happens to be wrong. But that's okay. We're cool.

This thread is done. Unless anyone wants to further discuss the merits of pissing contests.
 
Nelson Montana said:
poantrax: Fair enough. And it's okay if you think my theories are quakery. As long as they work. And they do. All great minds are thought of as quacks until the common mind catches up to them. :)

Silent: I know you're just chomping at the bit trying toput me down, but don't make a fool of yourself. Apparently my knowledge of exercise phisiology is good enough for Powerlfting Champ Dennis Weiss, and for Mr. Universe Dave Draper and Exercise authority Lou Shuler. Hey, I admit, there no Silent Method, but they aint bad. Oh yeah, there are also the thousands of people who've benefited from my programs. Guess they don't count either.
Click to expand...

Ahh yes, sarcasm...used correctly, can be very overwhelming..great response Nelson...
 
Well now, about that glycogen window. As it turns out, there are some actual exact numbers and data that can be used to determine just when the body is finished exercising. Bear in mind that there is a distinct difference between exercise and movement.

Now Nelson, you asked how the body can distinguish between types of exercise. Well, what it can distinguish is rate of caloric expenditure, and we can deduce from a huge body of work that there is a definitive difference in fuel sources during exercise, depending on factors such as VO2max.

In fact, the Total Quality Management (TQM) as used to improve the competitiveness of Australian swimmers, By Dr. Robert Treffene - Future Splash, Oct. 14 - 17, 1995, very specifically addresses such componenets of exercise as type of muscle fiber used, rate of glycogen expenditure, fat expenditure, glycogen replenishment, workload, exertion, etc.

Here is an excerpt:

Glycogen has a limited holding space in the muscles. When used in training programs the total quantity available will be dissipated at different rates dependent on the speed used by the swimmer.

The replacement rate depends on many factors including (1) the type of muscles (white or red fast twitch or slow twitch) used at the selected speed and also (2) the type of exercise immediately following the fast set and what has been done in the previous session and what is done in the following sessions.

Replacement of the glycogen to the muscles takes from 12 hours to 3 days.

Table 1 gives a guide as to the rules for the glycogen recovery time which are used to set up fast and slow work within a weekly program. This enables race pace work in a program throughout the training season.

Table 1.
work load %VO2max event dominant fuel dominant fibre glycogen time replace time references
10-30 channel fat I NA NA 28,32
30-50 magnetic fat I NA NA 28,32
50-70 long dis fat-gly I 2 hr 24hr 12,13,25,29,4 4
70-85 1500m (sprint) gly I-IIA <80 min 24hr-12hr 2,3,12,20,25,2 8,44
85-100 1500m (dist) gly IIA-I <80 min 12hr-24hr as above
100 800m gly IIA-I 40 min 12hr-24hr 2,31
110 400m gly IIA-I-IIB 30 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 2,11,43
120 200m gly IIA-I-IIB 20 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 11,12,30,39
140 100m gly IIA-IIB 15 min 12hr-3days 1,30,39
> 140 50m-25m CP-gly IIB 8 min 20sec-3days 1,14,30,39

The above replacement times are slower if there is any muscle damage.

I & IIA glycogen replacement time is based on the total stores lasting for 40 minutes at Vcr(or 100% VO2max).

IIB glycogen time based on stores of 8 minutes at 200% VO2max.
It is assumed that energy required for swimming propulsion is proportional to velocity cubed and at 100m pace energy used is 140% VO2max.

The cube root of 200/140 is 1.125 so:

if swimmer can swim 100m in 50s their 200% 50m time = 22.2 sec
if swimmer can swim 100m in 54s their 200% 50m time = 24 sec.
The glycogen utilisation is assumed to drop to low levels close to anaerobic threshold (AT) as below this level the synthesis of glycogen seems capable of equalling the removal rate in the type I fibres.

Note that a set of 12 X 300m or more swum at a speed between 75% to 85% VO2max in a session within 12 to 24 hours before a high intensity set will give a possibility of the IIB fibres being depleted for the second session as well as large depletion of the other two fibre groups.

By suitable positioning of fat metabolism swimming (70% of the total program) then high intensity sets swum near maximum heart rate (heart rate sets) and race pace sprint sets can be programmed each week.

Just one example of how specific knowledge is utilized to optimize exercise.

So the key here is simple…we just refer to the time frame immediately following EXHAUSTIVE exercise, see?

We don’t need to know if the body is finished moving, we just need to know the output threshold of that particular exercise on that particular person, which can easily be calculated with heart rate and resistance variables.

Generally, common sense tells us that as soon as we finish our last set of squats and then start walking home, or on the treadmill to cool down, we have finished out 'exhaustive exercise'...we don't need charts to figure that one out.

Pretty easy, really. The fifteen minutes start when you are FINISHED GIVING YOUR BEST EFFORT.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I'm glad you feel that way. It means there's hope that will try to do something about your lack of understanding in this matter. I forgive your ignorance. You simply can't comprehend the components. No slam. You're still young. You think I base everything solely on personal experience because you can't see beyond your own personal experience It's called "projecting."
Click to expand...


That was sure a long winded version of "I'm rubber you're glue..."

Nelson Montana said:
One more time: I have over two hundred published works in this field. I have the endorsements of some of the top people in the industry. You, are a nobody on the internet who says I'm wrong. Fine. We have a difference of opinion. Yours just happens to be wrong. But that's okay. We're cool.
Click to expand...
Shall I run through it again for you?

"I have over two hundred published works in this field.'
Sad, then, that you have such poor command of the subject.

(BTW, show me one of your published "works" on the physiology of exercise response in a post-exercise model.)

"I have the endorsements of some of the top people in the industry.'
Ah, yes. Top people? Or top bussinessmen and bussiness models in the industry? Do they agree with everything you say?

"You, are a nobody on the internet who says I'm wrong. Fine. .'
You are a wanabe in reality who is wrong. Very fine.

"We have a difference of opinion. Yours just happens to be wrong. But that's okay. We're cool.'
This is the kicker - you lack the knowledge to form an opinion other than agree or disagree on this subject. You have very poor understanding of exercise responce patterns.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I'm not sure if this qualifies as "experience" but I was training, and training other people, before Fonz was alive.
Click to expand...

Really? According to your web page http://www.nelsonmontana.com/gallery.html you were still a stick at 38. Obviously you didn't know what you were doing up until then. Either with yourself or with any people insane enough to have allowed you to train them. Why would you list that time as experience?

Nelson Montana said:
I have over two hundred published works in this field.
Click to expand...

So in the last 8-10 years, you've written a bunch of articles for T-mag.
 
Fukkenshredded said:
Well now, about that glycogen window. As it turns out, there are some actual exact numbers and data that can be used to determine just when the body is finished exercising. Bear in mind that there is a distinct difference between exercise and movement.

Now Nelson, you asked how the body can distinguish between types of exercise. Well, what it can distinguish is rate of caloric expenditure, and we can deduce from a huge body of work that there is a definitive difference in fuel sources during exercise, depending on factors such as VO2max.

In fact, the Total Quality Management (TQM) as used to improve the competitiveness of Australian swimmers, By Dr. Robert Treffene - Future Splash, Oct. 14 - 17, 1995, very specifically addresses such componenets of exercise as type of muscle fiber used, rate of glycogen expenditure, fat expenditure, glycogen replenishment, workload, exertion, etc.

Here is an excerpt:

Glycogen has a limited holding space in the muscles. When used in training programs the total quantity available will be dissipated at different rates dependent on the speed used by the swimmer.

The replacement rate depends on many factors including (1) the type of muscles (white or red fast twitch or slow twitch) used at the selected speed and also (2) the type of exercise immediately following the fast set and what has been done in the previous session and what is done in the following sessions.

Replacement of the glycogen to the muscles takes from 12 hours to 3 days.

Table 1 gives a guide as to the rules for the glycogen recovery time which are used to set up fast and slow work within a weekly program. This enables race pace work in a program throughout the training season.

Table 1.
work load %VO2max event dominant fuel dominant fibre glycogen time replace time references
10-30 channel fat I NA NA 28,32
30-50 magnetic fat I NA NA 28,32
50-70 long dis fat-gly I 2 hr 24hr 12,13,25,29,4 4
70-85 1500m (sprint) gly I-IIA <80 min 24hr-12hr 2,3,12,20,25,2 8,44
85-100 1500m (dist) gly IIA-I <80 min 12hr-24hr as above
100 800m gly IIA-I 40 min 12hr-24hr 2,31
110 400m gly IIA-I-IIB 30 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 2,11,43
120 200m gly IIA-I-IIB 20 min 12hr-24hr- 3days 11,12,30,39
140 100m gly IIA-IIB 15 min 12hr-3days 1,30,39
> 140 50m-25m CP-gly IIB 8 min 20sec-3days 1,14,30,39

The above replacement times are slower if there is any muscle damage.

I & IIA glycogen replacement time is based on the total stores lasting for 40 minutes at Vcr(or 100% VO2max).

IIB glycogen time based on stores of 8 minutes at 200% VO2max.
It is assumed that energy required for swimming propulsion is proportional to velocity cubed and at 100m pace energy used is 140% VO2max.

The cube root of 200/140 is 1.125 so:

if swimmer can swim 100m in 50s their 200% 50m time = 22.2 sec
if swimmer can swim 100m in 54s their 200% 50m time = 24 sec.
The glycogen utilisation is assumed to drop to low levels close to anaerobic threshold (AT) as below this level the synthesis of glycogen seems capable of equalling the removal rate in the type I fibres.

Note that a set of 12 X 300m or more swum at a speed between 75% to 85% VO2max in a session within 12 to 24 hours before a high intensity set will give a possibility of the IIB fibres being depleted for the second session as well as large depletion of the other two fibre groups.

By suitable positioning of fat metabolism swimming (70% of the total program) then high intensity sets swum near maximum heart rate (heart rate sets) and race pace sprint sets can be programmed each week.

Just one example of how specific knowledge is utilized to optimize exercise.

So the key here is simple…we just refer to the time frame immediately following EXHAUSTIVE exercise, see?

We don’t need to know if the body is finished moving, we just need to know the output threshold of that particular exercise on that particular person, which can easily be calculated with heart rate and resistance variables.

Generally, common sense tells us that as soon as we finish our last set of squats and then start walking home, or on the treadmill to cool down, we have finished out 'exhaustive exercise'...we don't need charts to figure that one out.

Pretty easy, really. The fifteen minutes start when you are FINISHED GIVING YOUR BEST EFFORT.
Click to expand...
Damn Nelson, I'd say it's time to concede man. Every time you start in and ask for a reference or try to argue what you believe to be a "common sense" point, you get your ass handed to you on a platter.

Let's recap (not necessarily in order).

Nelson: "And how does he body know it's 15 minutes after exercise? How does it know if you're on the threadmil or walking home from the gym? Is it determined by low glycogen? Then wouldn't it matter ow much food was in your stomach prior to the workout? What if the workout is 30 minutes or one hour? When does the 15 minutes start? See, these are the points that make the whole issue un-gaugeable."

Fukkinshredded: (see above quote)

Nelson: "Show me one reference that proves a high gycemic drink post workout grows more muscle than not taking in a high glycemic drink.

And don't post some bullshit about carbs replenishing glycogen storage. We all knew that before you were alive. Prove to me exactly how and why it grows more muscle. I'll be waiting."

Nelson: "Still waiting for those references Silent....Any time you're ready."

Nelson: "SHOW A REFERENCE THAT PROVES SOMEONE WILL GROW MORE MUSCLE BY INGESTING A HIGH GI CARB THAN SOMEONE WHO JUST EATS WHEN HE'S DAMN GOOD AND READY".

AND YOU DIDN'T. YOU COULDN'T. THEY DON'T EXIST."

Silent Method: "*Driskell, J. (2000). Nutritional applications in exercise and sport. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Groff, J. and Gropper, S. (2000). Advanced nutrition and human metabolism. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Burke, E. Optimal muscle recovery. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Wolinsky, I. (1997). Nutrition in exercise and sport. Third edition. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Ratzin-Jackson, C. (2000). Nutrition and the strength athlete. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Kleiner, S. (1998). Power eating: build muscle, gain energy, lose fat <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Colgan, M. (1993) Optimum Sports Nutrition. <and his other, more recent books that I will not type out, as well as the myriad of journal citations within his books >

*Berning, J. and Steen, S. (1998). Nutrition for sport and exercise. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

*Maughan, R and Murray, R. (2000) Sports drinks: basic science and practical aspects. <and the myriad of journal citations within the book>

A few studies:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance exercise on substrate availability and markers of catabolism.
Lundberg <found this one on microfice, sorry, I'm not typing it out, but if you are serious about the subject, you'll want to look it up>

Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise.
Chandler RM, Byrne HK, Patterson JG, Ivy JL
J Appl Physiol 1994 Feb 76:839-45
J Appl Physiol • Volume 76 • Issue 2

Carbohydrate ingestion/supplementation or resistance exercise and training.
Conley MS, Stone MH
Sports Med 1996 Jan 21:7-17
Sports Med • Volume 21 • Issue 1

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training
B. D. Roy1, M. A. Tarnopolsky1,2, J. D. Macdougall1, J. Fowles1, and K. E. Yarasheski3

1 Department of Kinesiology and 2 Department of Neurology and Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1; and 3 Metabolism Division, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110
Received 16 September 1996; accepted in final form 10 February 1997.

Roy, B. D., M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall, J. Fowles, and K. E. Yarasheski. Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training. J. Appl. Physiol. 82(6): 1882-1888, 1997.

Ingestion of Protein Hydrolysate and Amino Acid-Carbohydrate Mixtures Increases Postexercise Plasma Insulin Responses in Men
Luc J. C. van Loon*2, Margriet Kruijshoop*, Hans Verhagen, Wim H. M. Saris* and Anton J. M. Wagenmakers*

* Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute NUTRIM, Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, the Netherlands and TNO Nutrition and Food Research Institute, Food and Non-Food Analysis Department, Zeist, the Netherlands

Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.
Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M
J Appl Physiol 1993 Aug 75:1019-23
J Appl Physiol • Volume 75 • Issue 2

An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise
Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch and Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas 77550

Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise.
Biolo G, Williams BD, Fleming RY, Wolfe RR
Diabetes 1999 May 48:949-57

Diabetes • Volume 48 • Issue 5


Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1
1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802


Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise.
Kreider RB
Sports Med 1999 Feb 27:97-110
Sports Med • Volume 27 • Issue 2


Muscle glycogen synthesis before and after exercise.
Ivy JL
Sports Med 1991 Jan 11:6-19

Sports Med • Volume 11 • Issue 1

TESTOSTERONE - PHYSIOLOGY AND FACTORS AFFECTING SERUM CONCENTRATION
David Woodhouse: MSc Sports Science "


These references are EXACTLY what you asked for. They are not just a bunch of references about "some bullshit about carbs replenishing glycogen storage."

Actually, if you had read and understood them, ALL of the references given were salient to your question. They addressed each of SM's points:
*Exercise elicits a catecholamine response.
*Catecholamines elicit a catabolic response.
*Intense bouts of exercise elicit a catabolic response.
*Carbohydrate elicits an insulin response.
*Insulin elicits an anabolic/anti-catabolic response.
*High GI carbohydrate elicits a greater insulin response more rapidly than low GI carbohydrate.
*High GI carbohydrate consumed post-exercise elicits a greater, more rapid anabolic/anti-catabolic effect than low GI carbohydrate.
Even if you didn't understand most of them, of particular note are the references that contain direct references to anabolism, catabolism, muscle growth, or protein metabolism in the title such as:

"Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance exercise on substrate availability and markers of catabolism."

"An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise"

"Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise."

"Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training "

Come on man, just face up to the fact you were mistaken. We all are once in a while. Keeping this whole thing going is really starting to make you look bad.

(Note that in this whole post, I have not personally attacked or insulted you once so please don't respond by saying otherwise.)
 
I don't get it either spidey? WTF is wrong with you Nelson?
 
Ooooh, such big numbers! Such impressive looking scientific calculations!

Look, it's obvious we're talking two different languages here. I've stated a dozen times now, this is not about glycogen loading and what do I get -- study after study, after study, after study, after study, aftsr study , after study about REPLENISHING GLLYCOGEN!!! FINE ! YOU WIN!!!

It's obvious you want to win. So I'll concede that you will never understandthis. So you, know.... You win! Happy? You're still wrong. I'm not going to lie.

Funken: Is the "pefect time" for that high GI drink 15 minutes after your last intense set the same if you make the last intense set the fourth or the fourteeth? Think about it.

AND I"LL SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME (not that it's getting through), but...

Do you really think it makes a rats ass hair of a difference in the long run in terms of muscle growth? I SAY NO. You say yes. You have absolutely NO PROOF that it does other than abstact studies which have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. But you don't understand that, so I can't help you. It's like saying that drinking a glass of water will grow 150 pounds of musclebeause there's documentation that a 150 pound man died of dyhydration. Had he gotten a glass of water he would have maintained 150 pounds. See? Do you get this? Do you understand how one thing really has nothing to do with the otherand that you can use statistics to enforce any point of view if you just skim over them? And that's what happens here all the time. I'll bet NO ONE actually read that studies. because if they did, they'd see that I'm right. And heaven forbid if that happened.

Mr . Trap. You can conclude I didn't know what I was doing, but in truth I knew quite a bit. I believe what my "before" pics show is just how much of a hardgainer I was. So , you're wrong.

You also make the assumption that I've only written for T-Mag. Wrong again.

This is so boring. Post after post after post I keep showing people that they're wrong and it means nothing. Because the goal here is to try and discredit me. But you can't. You can however, lie, misinterpret and/or continue to attack. Or in some cases simply not understand the issue. And in others simply disagree. So why is thread still going? How many more times do I have state my case and how many more times do I to show that these accusations are wrong? Somebody close this thread and save these people from themselves. Please.
 
"It's obvious you want to win. So I'll concede that you will never understandthis. So you, know.... You win! Happy? You're still wrong. I'm not going to lie."

You call yourself a writer?? This is nonsense.

The only reason you can't be discredited at this point is because you have no credibility. You didn't look like a hardgainer in the before pics, you looked like someone who had never picked up a weight in his life.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Funken: Is the "pefect time" for that high GI drink 15 minutes after your last intense set the same if you make the last intense set the fourth or the fourteeth? Think about it.
Click to expand...
Please, please study some exercise physiology and response patterns.
 
The fifteen minutes begins after the last set, whether it is the fourth or the fourteenth.

As long as you are able to do another set, you are not actually exhausted, so of course the issue is not as relevant in that case.

I didn't post that to put up big numbers and try to impress. I put that up to show one example of how our current knowledge about rates of exhaustion and muscle recovery is being utilized to enhance performance, and with success.

Proof, of anything, is elusive if we keep redefining terms. At times, Nelson, you redefine your own terms in the middle of your logic chain. Certainly nobody here has offered any proof that muscle growth is accelerated via the proposed mechanisms, but what we have done is make a fairly good case that it PROBABLY does.

There is a huge body of evidence in swimming, cycling, marathoning, and olympic lifting that seemingly ratifies the theories on which the practicises are based.

All I was doing was posting one of them, one of hundreds, with simple concepts and a basic framework that is easily understood by everyone.

I apologize if again this seems personal; of course it is not. The fact is, I could certainly be wrong.

But think about this: If those of us who believe this data are in the wrong, then so are the vast majority of current top athletic coaches for swimming, cycling, and running.


So what some of us are wondering is this:

What are the SPECIFIC reasons that you do NOT believe that these data are correct?

Have you been able to observe and document a series of events that contradict these findings? And if so, why don't I have any of your articles in my vault of studies, and why, when I search on the net for relevant studies in these fields, does your name never appear?
 
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