WInny & "Dry Joints" -- Another Myth?

[Ezekiel]

Nelson:

Here is a writeup that I seen on practically every bodybuilding / AAS forum out there... in exactly the same format, so obviously it's been recycled many, many times... I don't really have time at the moment, but I couldn't readily find a RELIABLE source (e.g. Pub Med) to verify it any of the information or claims... but here you go:



While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of anabolic steroids which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use anabolic steroids like sus, testosterone cypionate, or testosterone enanthate.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , Anavar, or Primobolan - methenolone - as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , anavar and Primobolan - methenolone - will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - .

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies doenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other anabolic steroids, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle Clomid use. Here they are:

Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - : 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, human growth hormone - somatropin - at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , Primobolan - methenolone - , anavar, and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain anabolic steroids, the decision is up to you.

who wrote this article? Are then any others like it supporting its claims?

 

[C.K.]

Is there anything else that works as well as deca for joint lubrication that doesnt sacrifice your penor?

 

[burnthiscorpse]

Is there anything else that works as well as deca for joint lubrication that doesnt sacrifice your penor?

REad the article bro. EQ, Anavar, Primo. Even Anadrol will flood your joints with sinovial fluid.

 

[njmuscleguy]

I think that post that njmuscleguy posted is the kind of thing that Nelson was talking about. That thing has been cut and pasted for years now, and I still haven't seen anyone provide an original source for it, or any source studies. So for all we know, I could have written it, guesstimated the numbers, and everyone takes it as the gospel. A while back, I used to refer to it, but then I realized that there is really no background info on it... So, take it with a grain of salt.

that's why I prefaced it the way I did... I didn't do a full search (yet) for any supporting medical / scientific research... but, it makes you think... at least anecdotally, most deca users swear that their joints feel better when they're on and then they feel like crap when they're off... same thing goes for Winny (but in reverse)... as far as dosages, percentages, etc... I couldn't tell you... I just thought it was interesting that when I ran a search on "collagen synthesis" and "deca", this article popped up on practically every major forum and AAS site

 

[C.K.]

REad the article bro. EQ, Anavar, Primo. Even Anadrol will flood your joints with sinovial fluid.

Good stuff looks like ill add a lil EQ thanks

 

[needtogetaas]

Ok looking around We can see much evidence that sex hormones ie estrogen,test,and progesterone DO HAVE AN EFFECT ON
1.protein and collagen content in joints
2.decrease bone mineral density (low estrogen and low progesterone causes this)
3.Collagen is improved by addition of estrogen and progesterone
4.DHT administration has been found to decrease estrogen levels through a variety of mechanisms
5.DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues, either by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding.
6.DHT also has a negative effect on Progesterone biosynthesis in cells
7.Lowering estrogen will reduce water retention, but it will also limit your body's ability to produce estrogen-mediated anti-inflammatory reactions.
8.androgen have documented effects on corticosteroids, which have documented effects on bone and joint pain.
9.Progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). which means, progesterone has anti-inflammatory action
10. deca,tren,npp, stimulate progesterone HMMMMMMMM
11. winny,masterone,proveron,beastdrol are all dht's HMMMMMM

So I will say it load and proud
sex hormones ie estrogen,test,and progesterone DO HAVE AN EFFECT ON BONES AND JOINT IN MANY WAYS


And of course we know
test,deca,winny,masterone what ever all have effects on sex hormones ie test,estrogen,progesterone

 

[Barch]

that's why I prefaced it the way I did... I didn't do a full search (yet) for any supporting medical / scientific research... but, it makes you think... at least anecdotally, most deca users swear that their joints feel better when they're on and then they feel like crap when they're off... same thing goes for Winny (but in reverse)... as far as dosages, percentages, etc... I couldn't tell you... I just thought it was interesting that when I ran a search on "collagen synthesis" and "deca", this article popped up on practically every major forum and AAS site

Yeah, it wasn't a dig on you, it just kind of scares me how this one post has gotten posted over and over and people use it as a references for cycles when we don't know where it came from, who wrote it, what the substantiating evidence is (if any), etc. Even on this thread we already have people thinking about changing cycles due to the info in that post...

I think we all should try to be more informed consumers, not just taking some anonymous post as the gospel. Just kind of freaks me out.

I should add that I, too, read that post a while back and took it as fact. Then someone on one of the BBs brought up the fact that there is no supporting information for any of the claims. Afterall, they came up with exact percentages and numbers, so you'd think there was some studies providing that information...

 

[njmuscleguy]

Well, the same can be said for MOST advice dispensed on any given AAS site...alot of it is repeated information and no one really knows where it originated from...and most people don't take the time to verify it with say, pub med, etc.

Yeah, it wasn't a dig on you, it just kind of scares me how this one post has gotten posted over and over and people use it as a references for cycles when we don't know where it came from, who wrote it, what the substantiating evidence is (if any), etc. Even on this thread we already have people thinking about changing cycles due to the info in that post...

I think we all should try to be more informed consumers, not just taking some anonymous post as the gospel. Just kind of freaks me out.

I should add that I, too, read that post a while back and took it as fact. Then someone on one of the BBs brought up the fact that there is no supporting information for any of the claims. Afterall, they came up with exact percentages and numbers, so you'd think there was some studies providing that information...

 

[mr.nitro]

I would actually like to know if deca is masking the pain or actually repairing the joints somehow????


How do your joints feel when you stop taking the deca? If it was really healing joints they should continue to feel great when use stops.

unfourtunitly I belive its just masking the pain. after coming off deca my elbows hurt pretty bad.

 

[Barch]

Well, the same can be said for MOST advice dispensed on any given AAS site...alot of it is repeated information and no one really knows where it originated from...and most people don't take the time to verify it with say, pub med, etc.

True, but usually when something is posted as a whole over and over, you can usually at least find out who wrote it. The thing is that a lot of people, including myself have tried to verify it on Pubmed and other sources to see if there were any studies that might support this, but I still haven't seen any. Honestly, if it were shown to be factual, it would be great, since it would be a nice guideline for us all to use...