whyyyyy do beginners always feel the need

[[CinnamonBuns]]

to do advanced programs?
noramaly "advanced" entails slower progress, for the veteran trainers
i honestly swear that if the 5x5 was changed to "superadvancedronniecolemanprogram"
everybody would be significantly larger

endrant

 

[cmarcell]

Shitty magazines. Friends already doing stupid programs. Ego.

There you go.

 

[Bigpimpin10]

they want to be up to par .with the big guys in the gyms ill see little kids..instead of trying to curl 30-35s properly with good form theyll try 45-50...which they cannot get a rep out of..ive seen a kid blow out his back becasue of it.. you try explaining but you just cant get to them..

 

[Jocques Straap]

I like watching beginners try and curl and they end up maintaining their elbow angle and using their shoulders for the entire movement. Then they flash me a look, like I should be impressed. HA!

I think people like complexity. They think that a complex program will be best, and give them the greatest gains. That's why you see so many of them with the idea that the more exercises the better. When in reality, most beginners would be better off focusing on the main lifts.

 

[Big_BK]

I don't know exactly what causes is but there are many contributing factors. Since ive started lifting ive seen maybe 2-3 people i know out of GYMS worth of people were talking 2-3 gyms total members i have worked out at, progress. Everyone is still doing the same stupid shit and getting nowhere. My first routine was super simple, something like this:

Deadlift
wide grip chins
rows
curls

bench
dips
shoulder press
another iso tri exercise

squats
leg press
calves

 

[dabuffguy]

I don't know exactly what causes is but there are many contributing factors. Since ive started lifting ive seen maybe 2-3 people i know out of GYMS worth of people were talking 2-3 gyms total members i have worked out at, progress. Everyone is still doing the same stupid shit and getting nowhere. My first routine was super simple, something like this:

Deadlift
wide grip chins
rows
curls

bench
dips
shoulder press
another iso tri exercise

squats
leg press
calves

Exactly what I see BK. I see only 2 or 3 guys in my gym that get bigger or stronger, and guess what? Yep they are already the biggest and strongest guys in the gym. Imagine that.

 

[needtogetaas]

Exactly what I see BK. I see only 2 or 3 guys in my gym that get bigger or stronger, and guess what? Yep they are already the biggest and strongest guys in the gym. Imagine that.

That is only because they are juicing. Thats what the people watching them grow say anyway.

 

[SaiBoT]

The journey within is the longest and hardest... They will learn!

 

[brad34]

to do advanced programs?
noramaly "advanced" entails slower progress, for the veteran trainers
i honestly swear that if the 5x5 was changed to "superadvancedronniecolemanprogram"
everybody would be significantly larger

My answer is SO WHAT?!

I don't think this is a real big mystery..let me explain as not long ago (8 months) I was what you big guys consider a "beginner" and am still a beginner (maybe ready to graduate)

First, I read every bit of information I could find: magazines, library, internet, this forum. There is 1000! different opinions on what works.

When your new you think the more variety of lifts the better. You see all these bigger guys in the gym doing all sorts of different lifts. When I first read the 5x5 I thought to myself that can't be enough variety!

Then I started getting more structured and had a experienced friend put together a "program" for me. That program consisted of A LOT of different lifts. I ran that program for a while and eventually it evolved into the 5x5, now I focus on deadlifts, squats, bench, military press and rows. And secondary to that I will do some curls, dips, sit ups, etc.

As SaiBot says: The journey within is the longest and hardest..they will learn!

I expect to never stop learning while working towards my goals.

Don't be so judgemental

 

[Big_BK]

IMO if you base your workouts around squats, deads, bench, mil press, dips, etc. Lifts that are not ISO and require you to bust your ass then you will grow. Go heavy all the time. 5-8 reps. You should be pretty wiped out after doing these and not want to do isolation crap and if you do then your not pushing hard enough. On my squat and deadlift days i always need a good 5-10min break to get back into reality because im pushing so hard. Bench doesnt take that much out of me because its not one of my best lifts but you should be pushing to your breaking point every workout.

 

[FunFun]

but you should be pushing to your breaking point every workout.

IMO this is a road to nowhere. You'll end up burnt out, injured and on a plateau (if you're lucky), or going backwards.

Periodization is the only way to go. Break it up by combining heavy weight workouts with lighter higher volume workouts. As you slowly get stronger, your light weights will start looking quite heavy too.

 

[LucSulla]

IMO if you base your workouts around squats, deads, bench, mil press, dips, etc. Lifts that are not ISO and require you to bust your ass then you will grow. Go heavy all the time. 5-8 reps. You should be pretty wiped out after doing these and not want to do isolation crap and if you do then your not pushing hard enough. On my squat and deadlift days i always need a good 5-10min break to get back into reality because im pushing so hard. Bench doesnt take that much out of me because its not one of my best lifts but you should be pushing to your breaking point every workout.

Bench isn't one of my best either. I know I thought I would throw some iso work in when i started a 5 x5, and that lasted for the first several weeks. It takes me several minutes just to get it back together enough to put the plates back up after squats and deadlifts. Lol, sometimes the bottom of my lats are so sore on DL day that I have to wait 15 or 20 minutes just so I can stear my vehicle safely.

 

[sensational]

IMO if you base your workouts around squats, deads, bench, mil press, dips, etc. Lifts that are not ISO and require you to bust your ass then you will grow. Go heavy all the time. 5-8 reps. You should be pretty wiped out after doing these and not want to do isolation crap and if you do then your not pushing hard enough. On my squat and deadlift days i always need a good 5-10min break to get back into reality because im pushing so hard. Bench doesnt take that much out of me because its not one of my best lifts but you should be pushing to your breaking point every workout.

I agree with everything but "heavy all the time".

Bust your ass all the time, but the strain on tendons and joints produced by consisently training heavy can eventually be a detriment rather than an asset.

 

[Bigpimpin10]

big_bk...im kind of with him ...i usually go haevy ...on the big muscles...5-8 reps..usually 5...and i go 5-10 reps for bis and tris..

 

[[CinnamonBuns]]

My answer is SO WHAT?!

I don't think this is a real big mystery..let me explain as not long ago (8 months) I was what you big guys consider a "beginner" and am still a beginner (maybe ready to graduate)

First, I read every bit of information I could find: magazines, library, internet, this forum. There is 1000! different opinions on what works.

When your new you think the more variety of lifts the better. You see all these bigger guys in the gym doing all sorts of different lifts. When I first read the 5x5 I thought to myself that can't be enough variety!

Then I started getting more structured and had a experienced friend put together a "program" for me. That program consisted of A LOT of different lifts. I ran that program for a while and eventually it evolved into the 5x5, now I focus on deadlifts, squats, bench, military press and rows. And secondary to that I will do some curls, dips, sit ups, etc.

As SaiBot says: The journey within is the longest and hardest..they will learn!

I expect to never stop learning while working towards my goals.

Don't be so judgemental

my question was more directed to those who have been told otherwise by more experienced trainers, but choose to ignore, not the kid whos in the gym for the first time.

 

[Big_BK]

We are talking about begginers here, 3 days in the gym doing push/pull/legs as heavy as you can all the time is not going to kill them. Plenty of days for recovery.

 

[Blane]

We are talking about begginers here, 3 days in the gym doing push/pull/legs as heavy as you can all the time is not going to kill them. Plenty of days for recovery.

Beginner here.

My definition of beginner is someone who has not worked out consistantly for at least 3 years.

My current program:

day 1: Squat( 3 sets 8 reps 245lbs last workout no wraps or belt), leg press, calvs

day 2: off

day 3: off

day 4: DL( 3 sets 8 reps 300lbs last workout, no straps or hooks ), barbell curls, hammer curls

day 5ff

day 6:Standing barbell mil press(3 sets 8 reps 115 lbs last workout)

day 7: off

day 8: Bench( 3 sets 8 reps 245 lbs last workout), incline bench, dips and tries

iv managed to stay injury free. and im growing.

for a 41 yr old im happy...

i increase 5 lbs a week till i fail to get my 8 reps. i stick at the weight till i get 3 sets of 8.

Ill go back down to 5 rep sets after this cycle. then the following cycle i go up to 10 reps.

in the beginning i felt the need to do lower reps to put more poundage on the bar. now i dont give a crap about what others think...i want to stay injury free and grow....so i will change cycles each quarter.

 

[Jocques Straap]

^^^this program is not balanced. There is no horizontal pull or vertical pull. -- Is there a reason for this?

 

[Knoxfan]

Im with BK and pimpin on this one. However, I dont think that the same shit that works for 1 guy works for another. Im not a huge fan of Valentino, but I agree 100% with him in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvitFh8A0zI

 

[b fold the truth]

Beginners are ignorant...

They need to spend weeks in the gym doing only:
abs
rotators
lower back

before they ever touch a weight.

 

[Blane]

^^^this program is not balanced. There is no horizontal pull or vertical pull. -- Is there a reason for this?

dead lift.....that is the best form of pulling.......imo

i did the dumbell rows, seated cable rows. Waste of my time. i will add wide grip pullups in a few years.

im thinking of letting go of the incline bench. and doing shoulders the same day as chest and tries. thoughts all?

 

[Knoxfan]

beginners are ignorant...

They need to spend weeks in the gym doing only:
Abs
rotators
lower back

before they ever touch a weight.

ding!!!

 

[ExtraMile]

Beginner here.

My definition of beginner is someone who has not worked out consistantly for at least 3 years.

My current program:

day 1: Squat( 3 sets 8 reps 245lbs last workout no wraps or belt), leg press, calvs

day 2: off

day 3: off

day 4: DL( 3 sets 8 reps 300lbs last workout, no straps or hooks ), barbell curls, hammer curls

day 5ff

day 6:Standing barbell mil press(3 sets 8 reps 115 lbs last workout)

day 7: off

day 8: Bench( 3 sets 8 reps 245 lbs last workout), incline bench, dips and tries

iv managed to stay injury free. and im growing.

for a 41 yr old im happy...

i increase 5 lbs a week till i fail to get my 8 reps. i stick at the weight till i get 3 sets of 8.

Ill go back down to 5 rep sets after this cycle. then the following cycle i go up to 10 reps.

in the beginning i felt the need to do lower reps to put more poundage on the bar. now i dont give a crap about what others think...i want to stay injury free and grow....so i will change cycles each quarter.

Just wondering were you got that workout from? Iv not seen anyone reccomend a workout with more moves for chest and arms than for back ...

 

[Blane]

Just wondering were you got that workout from? Iv not seen anyone reccomend a workout with more moves for chest and arms than for back ...

after i dl my back is done. it hits the entire back. ...and i feel it.

Im not recommending it to anyone. i posted it for people to make observations and give opinions. I thank you for yours.

I used to do rows, pulldowns and other back exercises. i was overtraining and not growing. through experimentation and time i am noticing what my body responds to best.

Any time our hands wrap around a bar we are using secondary or stabalized muscles(usually in the arms)..that includes the squat.

To your point: " workout with more moves for chest and arms than for back "

I am naturally moving away from smaller movements to the largest movements. example. im going to explore deleting incline bench and do shoulders on chest day.

in addition i am going to omit the leg press and do 3 additional working sets on the squat.

adding rowing movements/pulldowns for back will lead to overtraining and injuries.....How do i know? im injury free since i deleted them.

Your thoughts about the deletion of incline benching and extra sets on the squat omiting the leg press?

 

[heavydutyhit]

They are plagued with the childhood idea that more is better. More jelly beans are better than less jelly beans, so more training must be better than less training right?

 

[Blane]

They are plagued with the childhood idea that more is better. More jelly beans are better than less jelly beans, so more training must be better than less training right?

Ty Sir. Yes i need to continually remind myself more is not allways better. in fact its usually a bad thing.lol imo.