Things You Don't Need

[Nelson Montana]

It seems almost anti-message board to dismiss some the things people spend time discussing, but in all my years in the sport I've come to realize there are some substances that either don't have merit, aren't as good as once believed, or have been replaced with something better. So my question is; Why still use them?

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex:

This was the brainchild of Dan Duchaine. He was thr first to realizr that if steroids convert to estrogen, use an anti estrogen! It prevented gyno in guys who were using high dosages of dbol. Very smart, But nolva isn't the greatest anti e. It lowers IGF. Destroys HDL and oblitarates libido in most guys. In short, it sucks. Even Dan admitted it didn't work all that well and there were better choices. This was in 1998. 10 years later, people still use it. And in 99% of the cases it does nothing.

Deca:

Another good idea that just doesn't pan out. By being a NOR androgen they thought they could circumvent the androgenic side effects of steroids, but the concept backfired. It is MORE suppressive than straight testosterone. It also bloats every bit as much as testosterone and the bloat comes from an increase in progesterone, not prolactin -- making dosinex useless to combat the bloat and impotence. (Though people keep trying).

Clenbuterol:

How a stimlant, which is catabolic became known as an anti catabolic is beyond me. The effects of Clen are very short lived and the sides are horrible. OTC stims are just as good at fat loss, but using stims for fat loss isn;t the best idea. Most OTC are the same but I have to give a shout to Omega's Lipoflame. It kicks ass and sicne the ingredients of most products are the same, you might as well get something that's a good price and supports the site.

Insulin:

Want to increase insulin after a workout? Drink a jug of Gatordade! Vanadyl sulfate increases insulin as well. And I'll go on the record as saying taking a BIG BLAST after each workout will work as well, if not better. And it won't kill you if you take too much.


Clomid:

Oh, how I hate this shit. I also love how people say it increases seninal volume. Pure rumor, myth and wishful thinking. It LOWERS it. It effects mood, causes depression, can impair sight, cause cancer and in some guys like myself, completely kill libido. This is a drug that was never intended for men. It is an estrogen. Chances are , if it "worked" for you, it was IN SPITE of using it, not because of it. Clomid seems to be benificial in about 20% of the people using it and disastrous in the rest. Today, with products like Alpha Sustain and POST CYCLE as well as superior anti e's like arimidex and aromasan, taking Clomid is like using a rotary phone. There's really no point.

Proviron:

I love Proviron. But UNLEASHED is so damn close to it and it's non supressive and non toxic, I really can't justify using Proviron for the anti SHBG effects.

T3:

It's nuts to use this stuff to burn fat. It will only suppress your thyroid and the 5 pounds you lose will quickly come back and you run the risk of having a sub par thyroid the rest of your life. Don't be an asshole! Use ZIP to hype the tyroid safely.

Growth Hormone:

The most overrated compound in bodybuilding. Sure, if you're a pro and need that extra 2%, you have to use it. But compare the results you'd get from $100 of GH to $100 of testosterone. No contest. GH also is far more dangerous than many are willing to accept. Bodybuilding dosages put you at the risk of many cancers. No worth it. You want GH? Squat and sleep!

Anavar:

First of all, there's nothing var dos that primo doesn't do better. Secondly, I'd stack 25 mgs a day of dbol against 50 mgs of var and the dbol wins. Sure, you get some bloat but a little DEFINITION takes care of that as long as you work up a sweat in your workouts. Besides, a little bloat increases size and strength. Var is weak, overpriced and overrated. There are better options -- mainly, almost any other oral.

Dostinex:

I'm not saying this is NEVER needed but it's need a lot less often than people think. Before you use Dos, CHECK YOUR PROLACTIN LEVEL:S. Don't assume. It has serious side effects. And Mucana Purians lowers prolactin naturally pretty well as does zinc, Vit E and B6.

HCG:

I've never been impressed with HCG but it had its place. It never really "cured" anything but it does give the HPTA a little jump start which helps in recovery. The problem is , people think it actually helps restore the HPTA, which it does not. Also, we've all heard about "Ledig sensitization" though no one can gauge it. After using HCG only once every other month for 2 years I have to say, it seems to do nothing anymore. HMG is the shit. Instead of mimicking LH, it actually increases it, getting the body to work in a more natural manner. It can be used to take a break from gear, as a recovery agent and as an adjunct to HRT. It also is the most powerful sex stimulant on the planet.


That's it bros. Add your own if you like. And although there may be some who will disagree at first, it will become evident that this list is accurate. These are obsolete compounds. It's time to move into the 21st century of anabolic enhancement. That means becoming aware of better products, better techniques, and most importantly, letting go of outdated thinking.

 

[aquatic_glories]

at least 10-page arguement I smell!!

 

[mwm5]

plug.............lol

 

[HAYEZ]

come on man...you must have been really bored to come up with this load of crap....lololololol...got to give it to ya you sure do like contraversy...some of the best compounds on there and pct meds to date

 

[Nelson Montana]

at least 10-page arguement I smell!!

Bring it on!

But please do try to present an perspective. Simply disagreeing or saying this is bullshit is not a response.

 

[bblazer]

The HCG concept has always intrigued me.

If it is so good at raising natural test levels, why not just do an HCG cycle? In some anti-aging clinics it is used first to see if levels are raised before test is given.

Just thinking out loud here...

B-

 

[aquatic_glories]

The HCG concept has always intrigued me.

If it is so good at raising natural test levels, why not just do an HCG cycle? In some anti-aging clinics it is used first to see if levels are raised before test is given.

Just thinking out loud here...

B-

I have heard some sportsmen using it that way. But my mind is not clear on it. Raising below-normal to normal is different than raising normal to supra-normal.

 

[kidd73]

I'm pulling up a chair and sittin' back for this one. Should be fun!

 

[Stillnatural]

Brave post Nelson. I would have to agree with you on most of these substances. I hate clomid. Used it and thought it did nothing for my recovery. Is aplpha sustain and Post Cycle really the answer?

 

[aquatic_glories]

Let me start a bit.

Now this article tells the things we dont need. Sure we might need HCG as we hear a lot from bro's that it made their cycle and recovery easier. Well I use a different kind of pct so I really cant say any exact thing about that.
But I am sure that you weren't thinking like that before you tried HMG , and your posts prove it right??

Sure we dont need insulin. We dont need AAS. We dont even need protein powders. But we use them. If we look from that way, your results will be nowhere close to insulin cycle if you drink Gatorade after a workout, nowhere.
Yes , insulin is overdosed just like most AAS but it's effects certainly shouldnt be underestimated.

What do you think of NPP???

 

[perryscoon]

I like this post.

 

[perryscoon]

I'm actually really surprised you don't have tren on that list. I thought you hated tren for some reason Nelson.

 

[footballstud]

I'm actually really surprised you don't have tren on that list. I thought you hated tren for some reason Nelson.

Because it's so damn good! Embrace the road rage and night sweats

 

[perryscoon]

Because it's so damn good! Embrace the road rage and night sweats

Word to your mother!

 

[flex229]

hey, sweet plug! now i'll never buy one of your products.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Let me start a bit.

Now this article tells the things we dont need. Sure we might need HCG as we hear a lot from bro's that it made their cycle and recovery easier. Well I use a different kind of pct so I really cant say any exact thing about that.
But I am sure that you weren't thinking like that before you tried HMG , and your posts prove it right??

Sure we dont need insulin. We dont need AAS. We dont even need protein powders. But we use them. If we look from that way, your results will be nowhere close to insulin cycle if you drink Gatorade after a workout, nowhere.
Yes , insulin is overdosed just like most AAS but it's effects certainly shouldnt be underestimated.

What do you think of NPP???

BAd analogy bro. You can't make the same gains without sterods so the "need" is not a factor. I was talking about things that are no better than what's available.

As for haydez--lol is not a argument to the contrary.

I hate Tren, but I won't argue its effectiveness.

flex 229 -- no problem. Your loss. You never bought them anyway. How do I know? Because if you did, you'd know they work.

 

[kidd73]

What about conjugated linoleic acid? Its been a staple for me for years. Any thoughts?

 

[aquatic_glories]

ok. I still didn't get answer to most.
And u think insulin is no better than what's avaible????

You certainly haven't realised its effects then bro...

 

[Nelson Montana]

ok. I still didn't get answer to most.
And u think insulin is no better than what's avaible????

You certainly haven't realised its effects then bro...

You can say the same thing about DNP.


CLA is fine, but I don;t use it. Olive oil, salmon, nuts, primrose oil...all good and stuff I use regularly.

 

[needtogetaas]

at least 10-page arguement I smell!!

Yes!!!!!!!! I love it. Well not the argument part. We will cal it a 10 page "discussion". O and that is what it better be. I see kid shit and I am handing out banned camp tickets.

 

[skaman007]

can we do a poll on those still using clomid/nolva pct against those who have now moved to sustain /post cycle or similiar?

 

[needtogetaas]

Let me start a bit.

Now this article tells the things we dont need. Sure we might need HCG as we hear a lot from bro's that it made their cycle and recovery easier. Well I use a different kind of pct so I really cant say any exact thing about that.
But I am sure that you weren't thinking like that before you tried HMG , and your posts prove it right??

I am going to back you on this part at least. Hcg on cycle is pretty good shit. It makes recovery a lot more easy.

Some people do need it. I say this with feed back and experence from members. I have seen hundreds of people try everything in the book for pct, and non of it worked. Did a little hcg then did pct over and bam worked like a charm.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I am going to back you on this part at least. Hcg on cycle is pretty good shit. It makes recovery a lot more easy.

Some people do need it. I say this with feed back and experence from members. I have seen hundreds of people try everything in the book for pct, and non of it worked. Did a little hcg then did pct over and bam worked like a charm.

I'm not saying HCG doesn't work. Up to this point it's been necessary and I use and recommend it every time. But HMG is simply a better option.

It maybe was unfair to put HCG in this group since it is effective, but I think as more people use HMG, they'll be saying goodbye to HCG.

 

[needtogetaas]

I'm not saying HCG doesn't work. Up to this point it's been necessary and I use and recommend it every time. But HMG is simply a better option.

It maybe was unfair to put HCG in this group since it is effective, but I think as more people use HMG, they'll be saying goodbye to HCG.

Availability has to come into play at some point though.

 

[HAYEZ]

can we do a poll on those still using clomid/nolva pct against those who have now moved to sustain /post cycle or similiar?

i stick by nolva as being a great recovery tool... u make the poll

 

[needtogetaas]

can we do a poll on those still using clomid/nolva pct against those who have now moved to sustain /post cycle or similiar?

What about the people who use both or a combo using different things to include some or all of them.

 

[skaman007]

What about the people who use both or a combo using different things to include some or all of them.

good point,,the reason i said ,why doesnt SOMEONE start a poll on the differnt pcts ,,and not MYSELF, WAS due to the fact that im sure a vet here could word it better and produce a better response.

 

[needtogetaas]

good point,,the reason i said ,why doesnt SOMEONE start a poll on the differnt pcts ,,and not MYSELF, WAS due to the fact that im sure a vet here could word it better and produce a better response.

Remind me and I will do one.

 

[halfcenturian]

 

[sensational]

It seems almost anti-message board to dismiss some the things people spend time discussing, but in all my years in the sport I've come to realize there are some substances that either don't have merit, aren't as good as once believed, or have been replaced with something better. So my question is; Why still use them?

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex:

This was the brainchild of Dan Duchaine. He was thr first to realizr that if steroids convert to estrogen, use an anti estrogen! It prevented gyno in guys who were using high dosages of dbol. Very smart, But nolva isn't the greatest anti e. It lowers IGF. Destroys HDL and oblitarates libido in most guys. In short, it sucks. Even Dan admitted it didn't work all that well and there were better choices. This was in 1998. 10 years later, people still use it. And in 99% of the cases it does nothing.

Deca:

Another good idea that just doesn't pan out. By being a NOR androgen they thought they could circumvent the androgenic side effects of steroids, but the concept backfired. It is MORE suppressive than straight testosterone. It also bloats every bit as much as testosterone and the bloat comes from an increase in progesterone, not prolactin -- making dosinex useless to combat the bloat and impotence. (Though people keep trying).

Clenbuterol:

How a stimlant, which is catabolic became known as an anti catabolic is beyond me. The effects of Clen are very short lived and the sides are horrible. OTC stims are just as good at fat loss, but using stims for fat loss isn;t the best idea. Most OTC are the same but I have to give a shout to Omega's Lipoflame. It kicks ass and sicne the ingredients of most products are the same, you might as well get something that's a good price and supports the site.

Insulin:

Want to increase insulin after a workout? Drink a jug of Gatordade! Vanadyl sulfate increases insulin as well. And I'll go on the record as saying taking a BIG BLAST after each workout will work as well, if not better. And it won't kill you if you take too much.


Clomid:

Oh, how I hate this shit. I also love how people say it increases seninal volume. Pure rumor, myth and wishful thinking. It LOWERS it. It effects mood, causes depression, can impair sight, cause cancer and in some guys like myself, completely kill libido. This is a drug that was never intended for men. It is an estrogen. Chances are , if it "worked" for you, it was IN SPITE of using it, not because of it. Clomid seems to be benificial in about 20% of the people using it and disastrous in the rest. Today, with products like Alpha Sustain and POST CYCLE as well as superior anti e's like arimidex and aromasan, taking Clomid is like using a rotary phone. There's really no point.

Proviron:

I love Proviron. But UNLEASHED is so damn close to it and it's non supressive and non toxic, I really can't justify using Proviron for the anti SHBG effects.

T3:

It's nuts to use this stuff to burn fat. It will only suppress your thyroid and the 5 pounds you lose will quickly come back and you run the risk of having a sub par thyroid the rest of your life. Don't be an asshole! Use ZIP to hype the tyroid safely.

Growth Hormone:

The most overrated compound in bodybuilding. Sure, if you're a pro and need that extra 2%, you have to use it. But compare the results you'd get from $100 of GH to $100 of testosterone. No contest. GH also is far more dangerous than many are willing to accept. Bodybuilding dosages put you at the risk of many cancers. No worth it. You want GH? Squat and sleep!

Anavar:

First of all, there's nothing var dos that primo doesn't do better. Secondly, I'd stack 25 mgs a day of dbol against 50 mgs of var and the dbol wins. Sure, you get some bloat but a little DEFINITION takes care of that as long as you work up a sweat in your workouts. Besides, a little bloat increases size and strength. Var is weak, overpriced and overrated. There are better options -- mainly, almost any other oral.

Dostinex:

I'm not saying this is NEVER needed but it's need a lot less often than people think. Before you use Dos, CHECK YOUR PROLACTIN LEVEL:S. Don't assume. It has serious side effects. And Mucana Purians lowers prolactin naturally pretty well as does zinc, Vit E and B6.

HCG:

I've never been impressed with HCG but it had its place. It never really "cured" anything but it does give the HPTA a little jump start which helps in recovery. The problem is , people think it actually helps restore the HPTA, which it does not. Also, we've all heard about "Ledig sensitization" though no one can gauge it. After using HCG only once every other month for 2 years I have to say, it seems to do nothing anymore. HMG is the shit. Instead of mimicking LH, it actually increases it, getting the body to work in a more natural manner. It can be used to take a break from gear, as a recovery agent and as an adjunct to HRT. It also is the most powerful sex stimulant on the planet.


That's it bros. Add your own if you like. And although there may be some who will disagree at first, it will become evident that this list is accurate. These are obsolete compounds. It's time to move into the 21st century of anabolic enhancement. That means becoming aware of better products, better techniques, and most importantly, letting go of outdated thinking.

Agree on Nolvadex.

Agree with what you said about deca except I like using it at a lose dose to help with my joints...it seems to help more than any other compound.

I also hate clenbuterol or any beta-2 agonist used in bodybuilding. There are much safer ways to lose weight.

Insulin: While drinking a gatorade will spike your insulin, it will not be as effective as supplementing with it. I would put this in the category as elite bodybuilder use only, along with GH and T-3.

Clomid does suck, I hate it.

Proviron: I love the stuff. I would love to see a free test comparison with Unleashed to evaluate just how necessary proviron is.

T3: Should not be trifled with by your average joe. However, it is the great potentiator hormone and can augment the effects of other hormones in the body. Should go in the elite bodybuilders arsenal only.

GH: Its expense, along with its risk and minimal effects are not worth it unless you are elite bber.

Anavar: I have to disagree Nelson. I love var, its just ridiculously expensive, but it has its place in bbing. Remember that each person's physiology is slightly different and will respond to different compounds differently. Just because you responded poorly does not mean someone else will not respond amazingly to it.

Dostinex: Should be used to alleviate prolactin induced effects only. Its expense along with its potential side effects are not worth the purchase usually.

HCG: What needto said mimics my sentiments.

One compound I would like to add:

Winstrol: I love the effects of it and how it sheds sub-Q water and lowers SHBG by a large degree. But it is so harsh on the joints, it can inhibit training and possibly be more of a hindrance than a help at a certain point. I think we should always encourage and small dose of deca or NPP with the use of winny. Shit is harsh and messes up your blood lipid profile bad.

Also: A bber does not need cinnamon rolls or donuts. Good Lord I love them, but if i buy them I instantly spike my blood sugar and add a good 500-1k of shit calories to my diet. The goal is to add quality muscle, not a bunch of shitty looking mass imo.

 

[JslJsl22]

What you guys must realize is Nelson isnt trying to be like "whatever he says goes." He is trying to spark a lively debate. What we must realize is that we all respond differently to each compound and the amounts of the compound. What works for someone MAY NOT work for you. There is no RIGHT or WRONG protocol to take steroids, but there are smarter and safer ways. K to you Nelson, let the lively debate begin and thanks for continuously making us realize we all react differently so we dont fall into one or just a few methods of doing things.

 

[needtogetaas]

What you guys must realize is Nelson isnt trying to be like "whatever he says goes." He is trying to spark a lively debate. What we must realize is that we all respond differently to each compound and the amounts of the compound. What works for someone MAY NOT work for you. There is no RIGHT or WRONG protocol to take steroids, but there are smarter and safer ways. K to you Nelson, let the lively debate begin and thanks for continuously making us realize we all react differently so we dont fall into one or just a few methods of doing things.

Hell ya.

 

[needtogetaas]

I will take deca with me to the grave to.

 

[rikishi]

I'm sorry sir, but i do not think that unleashed is "so damn close" to proviron. sorry. i know you are trying to sell your product, but come on.

 

[access]

HMG may be better than HCG (actually yes it is better) but at present it's availability is limited and it's cost is prohibitive so I think it was unfair to lump HCG in there and for anybody that doesn't know better then please use HCG on cycle as it will certainly assist with recovery.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I would never suggest NOT taking HCG because HMG is better. But HMG is better. And it's popping up all over the place and the cost for the generic is not that bad -- maybe 20 bucks more for a monthly dosing of HCG.

I am taken aback at some of the concerns of "cost." This is you body bros. We're not talking about paper towels. If you're going to do this, splurge for the extra 20 bucks. It's the price of a couple of sandwiches for crisssakes. If you can;t afford that you shouldn;t be injecting foreign substances into your bloodstream.

UNLEASHED is pretty damn close to Proviron. Safer. Better with ED. And can used indefinitely.

 

[mr.nitro]

huh. my ealyer post was deleted.

all I said was I was keeping my deca,clen,insulin, and t3.

 

[Nelson Montana]

huh. my ealyer post was deleted.

all I said was I was keeping my deca,clen,insulin, and t3.

No it wasn't bro. You were being disrespectful. This is a discussion board. If you have something to add, feel free. If you want to be snotty, you'll be deleted.

And taking T3 and insulin isn't smart. You can do what you want, but we've lost too many members as it is.

I don;t know you and it won't change my life if you're another casualty. But I have to try and at least give a warning because a life lost is a tragedy anyway you slice it. Just don't give me grief about it, okay?

 

[mr.nitro]

No it wasn't bro. You were being disrespectful. This is a discussion board. If you have something to add, feel free. If you want to be snotty, you'll be deleted.

And taking T3 and insulin isn't smart. You can do what you want, but we've lost too many members as it is.

I don;t know you and it won't change my life if you're another casualty. But I have to try and at least give a warning because a life lost is a tragedy anyway you slice it. Just don't give me grief about it, okay?

not at the same time with the t3 and insulin. and If I say I don't need your products, which is 100% true why is that a big deal.its not like I was saying they don't work.

 

[joe d]

Bring it on!

But please do try to present an perspective. Simply disagreeing or saying this is bullshit is not a response.

im in

this is to your and a lot of others claims that nolva is useless. it is a less effective ai than others but for pct. it is one of the best. yes i coppied this from the net. yes it is true.

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (2)(3). The best (rough) estimate I can give you from my research is that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (5)...and this would of course greatly aid post-cycle-recovery. What this means to us is that if you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. In fact, if I were limited to just one compound to aid me in post-cycle-recovery, Nolvadex would be my choice. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRL (5), after 6 weeks.

 

[Nelson Montana]

im in

this is to your and a lot of others claims that nolva is useless. it is a less effective ai than others but for pct. it is one of the best. yes i coppied this from the net. yes it is true.

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (2)(3). The best (rough) estimate I can give you from my research is that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (5)...and this would of course greatly aid post-cycle-recovery. What this means to us is that if you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. In fact, if I were limited to just one compound to aid me in post-cycle-recovery, Nolvadex would be my choice. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRL (5), after 6 weeks.

That's fine, but I think whoever wrote that is wrong. Nolva raise T 150%? I say bullshit. If that were true, Nolva would be used for HRT. MAybe if your T is 100, it may get it to 250, but time will do that anyway.

Also, if it raise T so much why do so many guys lose their sex drive while on it?

 

[joe d]

That's fine, but I think whoever wrote that is wrong. Nolva raise T 150%? I say bullshit. If that were true, Nolva would be used for HRT. MAybe if your T is 100, it may get it to 250, but time will do that anyway.

Also, if it raise T so much why do so many guys lose their sex drive while on it?

the loss of sex drive is a side of the drug. i guess i cannot say the numbers are to accurate when the writer even says they are not but the fact is it does do a damn good job of all of these things making it one of the best. by the way i dont know how many have these bad sides sides from nolva but what i get is an increased appetite, better sleap, great anabolic support, and no bad sides at all not to mention a smooth recovery. of course i take recovery stack with it.

also i forgot to mention on my last cycle i was running adex .5 eod and started getting gyno so i started the nolva and dropped the adex and the gyno cleared up in a few days.

 

[alcatraz1662]

It seems almost anti-message board to dismiss some the things people spend time discussing, but in all my years in the sport I've come to realize there are some substances that either don't have merit, aren't as good as once believed, or have been replaced with something better. So my question is; Why still use them?

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex:

This was the brainchild of Dan Duchaine. He was thr first to realizr that if steroids convert to estrogen, use an anti estrogen! It prevented gyno in guys who were using high dosages of dbol. Very smart, But nolva isn't the greatest anti e. It lowers IGF. Destroys HDL and oblitarates libido in most guys. In short, it sucks. Even Dan admitted it didn't work all that well and there were better choices. This was in 1998. 10 years later, people still use it. And in 99% of the cases it does nothing.

Deca:

Another good idea that just doesn't pan out. By being a NOR androgen they thought they could circumvent the androgenic side effects of steroids, but the concept backfired. It is MORE suppressive than straight testosterone. It also bloats every bit as much as testosterone and the bloat comes from an increase in progesterone, not prolactin -- making dosinex useless to combat the bloat and impotence. (Though people keep trying).

Clenbuterol:

How a stimlant, which is catabolic became known as an anti catabolic is beyond me. The effects of Clen are very short lived and the sides are horrible. OTC stims are just as good at fat loss, but using stims for fat loss isn;t the best idea. Most OTC are the same but I have to give a shout to Omega's Lipoflame. It kicks ass and sicne the ingredients of most products are the same, you might as well get something that's a good price and supports the site.

Insulin:

Want to increase insulin after a workout? Drink a jug of Gatordade! Vanadyl sulfate increases insulin as well. And I'll go on the record as saying taking a BIG BLAST after each workout will work as well, if not better. And it won't kill you if you take too much.


Clomid:

Oh, how I hate this shit. I also love how people say it increases seninal volume. Pure rumor, myth and wishful thinking. It LOWERS it. It effects mood, causes depression, can impair sight, cause cancer and in some guys like myself, completely kill libido. This is a drug that was never intended for men. It is an estrogen. Chances are , if it "worked" for you, it was IN SPITE of using it, not because of it. Clomid seems to be benificial in about 20% of the people using it and disastrous in the rest. Today, with products like Alpha Sustain and POST CYCLE as well as superior anti e's like arimidex and aromasan, taking Clomid is like using a rotary phone. There's really no point.

Proviron:

I love Proviron. But UNLEASHED is so damn close to it and it's non supressive and non toxic, I really can't justify using Proviron for the anti SHBG effects.

T3:

It's nuts to use this stuff to burn fat. It will only suppress your thyroid and the 5 pounds you lose will quickly come back and you run the risk of having a sub par thyroid the rest of your life. Don't be an asshole! Use ZIP to hype the tyroid safely.

Growth Hormone:

The most overrated compound in bodybuilding. Sure, if you're a pro and need that extra 2%, you have to use it. But compare the results you'd get from $100 of GH to $100 of testosterone. No contest. GH also is far more dangerous than many are willing to accept. Bodybuilding dosages put you at the risk of many cancers. No worth it. You want GH? Squat and sleep!

Anavar:

First of all, there's nothing var dos that primo doesn't do better. Secondly, I'd stack 25 mgs a day of dbol against 50 mgs of var and the dbol wins. Sure, you get some bloat but a little DEFINITION takes care of that as long as you work up a sweat in your workouts. Besides, a little bloat increases size and strength. Var is weak, overpriced and overrated. There are better options -- mainly, almost any other oral.

Dostinex:

I'm not saying this is NEVER needed but it's need a lot less often than people think. Before you use Dos, CHECK YOUR PROLACTIN LEVEL:S. Don't assume. It has serious side effects. And Mucana Purians lowers prolactin naturally pretty well as does zinc, Vit E and B6.

HCG:

I've never been impressed with HCG but it had its place. It never really "cured" anything but it does give the HPTA a little jump start which helps in recovery. The problem is , people think it actually helps restore the HPTA, which it does not. Also, we've all heard about "Ledig sensitization" though no one can gauge it. After using HCG only once every other month for 2 years I have to say, it seems to do nothing anymore. HMG is the shit. Instead of mimicking LH, it actually increases it, getting the body to work in a more natural manner. It can be used to take a break from gear, as a recovery agent and as an adjunct to HRT. It also is the most powerful sex stimulant on the planet.


That's it bros. Add your own if you like. And although there may be some who will disagree at first, it will become evident that this list is accurate. These are obsolete compounds. It's time to move into the 21st century of anabolic enhancement. That means becoming aware of better products, better techniques, and most importantly, letting go of outdated thinking.

Having an extensive background in sales, it is notable that this thread has dual purposes; not just for debate/conversation sake, so I will take everything with a grain of salt and remain open to everything. Having only tried "Sustain", I was unimpressed with the results. And after dropping 50 on a failed PCT, I have stuck with the "outdated" products since.

This is my intake on the following list:

nolva: love it
clomid: love it
HCG: love it
clen: never got anything from it (even at over 200mcg)
insulin: never tried it, never will. just the possibility of going hypo scares the shit out of me. am also a big fan of gatorade post workout.
prov: never tried it, but always wanted to.
t3: never tried it, thyroid risk was always an issue for me too.
GH: the first area i agree 100% with
var: the second area i agree 100% with (unless you have the $$ to blow, not worth it IMO)
dost: never tried it, had it planned for the next time i ran tren but that time will never come again,

-things to add perhaps: anadrol? gains and sides versus dbol not worth it IMO
-i have been reading about HMG for a while and it seems like a KO to hcg, however, i also don't think it's availability (in comparison to hcg) has reached the point to where HCG should be put on this list as of yet.
-now as far as nolva and clomid go, (i might be asking for trouble) but until i see sufficient evidence of a product readily available (or as available) as the before mentioned two, I will stick by my guns. i apologize ahead of time if this steers this thread into a product promotion.....in that case, point me to a thread, nelson? thanks,

~Alc

 

[bblazer]

OK, some of the GH comments bug me. I have yet to see a study that shows a direct link to GH as a cause of cancer. I have seen studies that lead me to believe that if there are cancer cells present in a body GH can increase their growth and multiplication, however. GH is not asbestos or cigarette smoke.

To my point, GH therapy in the AI Clinic world is contra-indicated in patients who have or have had any form of cancer.

B-

 

[Nelson Montana]

OK, some of the GH comments bug me. I have yet to see a study that shows a direct link to GH as a cause of cancer. I have seen studies that lead me to believe that if there are cancer cells present in a body GH can increase their growth and multiplication, however. GH is not asbestos or cigarette smoke.

To my point, GH therapy in the AI Clinic world is contra-indicated in patients who have or have had any form of cancer.

B-

That's true but it can be speculated that we all have a perpensity to develop cancer and some things aggravate it. So it's kinda 6 of one, half dozen of the other. People can smoke their whole life and never get cancer but it certainly will aggravate the potential.

Alcatraz, if you love clomid, you're a lucky dude. One of the few. It makes most people feel like shit. I'm still uncertain why that is. No one knows.

As for nolva, it's good for gyno, but if you're getting gyno while taking dex, you're using too much gear.

Sustain isn;t my product and I don;t think anyone, including needto recommends it as a sole anti e.

If anyone wants evidence that UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE work, either try it, or ask someone who has.

You know, there's no "evidence" that HCG works because it isn't a drug designed for men. But it does. So does UNLEASHED.

Nolva and clomid aer also drugs, not designed for PCT. It's all based on speculation. So why be in such a hurry to dismiss a better option?

 

[JslJsl22]

Why is everyone focusing on the aspect that Nelson is trying to push his products? Sure, everyone wants to sell more products, but I dont think Nelson is desperate enough to push his products every post because hes not doing business. He is a man that stands behind his products. I have used Unleashed, Post Cycle and Big Blast and stand behind them 100%. I think some of you are too stubborn when it comes to trying new OTC PCT drugs. They provide a much safer alternative than Clomid and Nolva. If Nolva and Clomid work for you, then great, but no reason to accuse Nelson of pushing his products (this is not directed at you alcatraz). If you have something to debate, then by all means debate it, but lets not get foolish and say this thread was designed to peddle Nelson's items.

 

[needtogetaas]

the loss of sex drive is a side of the drug. i guess i cannot say the numbers are to accurate when the writer even says they are not but the fact is it does do a damn good job of all of these things making it one of the best. by the way i dont know how many have these bad sides sides from nolva but what i get is an increased appetite, better sleap, great anabolic support, and no bad sides at all not to mention a smooth recovery. of course i take recovery stack with it.

also i forgot to mention on my last cycle i was running adex .5 eod and started getting gyno so i started the nolva and dropped the adex and the gyno cleared up in a few days.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...very-stack-if-your-user-post-up-608230-7.html

good shit. i just started my pct with recovery stack. i also ran dermacrine during my cycle and no shit my balls didnt shrink at all. my last cycle without dermacrine was a lower dose of test and not only did they shrink a lot but they hurt like i was kicked (just not as bad) after sex. i dont know about pp's other stuff but i will use dermacrine on every cycle and test recovery stack for every pct.

the problem there is that i have no comparison. on my first cycle i had no dermacrine and the one i just ended did so i could see the difference. but i used the recovery stack on both and i will continue to use on all . i have no problems recovering using your recovery stack and nolva together. i haven't tried anything else.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...very-stack-if-your-user-post-up-608230-8.html

 

[joe d]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...very-stack-if-your-user-post-up-608230-7.html





http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...very-stack-if-your-user-post-up-608230-8.html

 

[Tatyana]

ok. I still didn't get answer to most.
And u think insulin is no better than what's avaible????

You certainly haven't realised its effects then bro...

Insulin is so easy to manipulate naturally I really don't get why people would use it.

Even though I hear many say the risks are over-rated, really, it is a pro-BBer drug IMHO, and high levels of insulin are linked to so many diseases as of late.

I think the worst thing with insulin is that too many use it to get big and end up getting fat.

 

[bmcadoo44]

Explain to me why HGH would not be good for an injury?

 

[lartinos]

lol, one of the worst posts ever..... sorry nelson

 

[alcatraz1662]

Alcatraz, if you love clomid, you're a lucky dude. One of the few. It makes most people feel like shit. I'm still uncertain why that is. No one knows.

As for nolva, it's good for gyno, but if you're getting gyno while taking dex, you're using too much gear.

Sustain isn;t my product and I don;t think anyone, including needto recommends it as a sole anti e.

If anyone wants evidence that UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE work, either try it, or ask someone who has.

You know, there's no "evidence" that HCG works because it isn't a drug designed for men. But it does. So does UNLEASHED.

Nolva and clomid aer also drugs, not designed for PCT. It's all based on speculation. So why be in such a hurry to dismiss a better option?

yeah, clomid never bothered me....no impaired vision, was a little moody one time but for the most part clomid never got to me.

i agree with your statement on nolva, a low dose of adex is usually sufficient throughout any of my cycles.

also, i wasn't referring to sustain as your product. it's just one of the only 2 products that i have tried in placement of ai's and serms.....the second being aifm which actually was somewhat effective in helping me recover (which i won't go into for obvious reasons).

like i said, i will continue to be a supporter of nolva and clomid; however everything deserves a chance and i will read about UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE. cheers,

 

[HAYEZ]

i believe otc supps should be used along side standard pct meds....not to replace them ever...unless we get a group of people and use only otc products along with bloodtests on everyone weekly then thats the only way to back up any product that is to replace what is tried and known for years

 

[Nelson Montana]

i believe otc supps should be used along side standard pct meds....not to replace them ever...unless we get a group of people and use only otc products along with bloodtests on everyone weekly then thats the only way to back up any product that is to replace what is tried and known for years

I agree...to a point.

The problem is, NOTHING is tried and true. I'm a big believer in using anything, be it natural or drug, to acheive a purpose in the best possible way. And suppsa can enhance drugs. Sometimes drugs are the better option. Sometimes natural substances are the better option. I recommend dex for any PCT from aromatizing compounds. Using the supps allows you to use LESS though.

The thing is, for thousands of people, Clomid is a nightmare. And the use of dex and the supps works as well, if not better. So why should those people suffer when they don't have to? That's the whole point.

 

[UA_Iron]

Unleashed is a good product. I tried it and got testy, it was cool. I honestly didnt expect much. It's certainly not a replacement for what a pharmaceutical was meant to do. Herbal concoctions with mixed applicable empirical studies cannot compete with what pharmaceuticals use to verify drugs.

Nolvadex *raised* HDL levels in me. Nolvadex, niacin, omega 3's, and a high fiber diet - I went from HDL of 8 to 40 in almost exactly one month.

Replace Deca with Anadrol and I'd agree with you. I wonder what Mike Mentzer's nuts looked like - dude used to go up to 6g's + week of deca.

Var isnt overpriced when compared to primo. Primo is overpriced and faked 100x more than var. You've been told this multiple times, yet you ignore this fact whenever you post your attack against var. Var isnt even that overpriced for an AAS. The price argument is a moot point. I do not know which one is more effective. Isn't HMG outrageously expensive?

 

[Nelson Montana]

..

 

[mighty-musculus]

I thought it was ok to talk about the way a mod does his job. I am now perma banned and I will never be coming back to the site. Fuck I should have remembered I was on the aas/training forum where they don't take any of my childish shit. If I had a complaint I should have taken it to admin,a mod in a pm,or called the help desk. I was a dumb ass though and I thought it would be cool to cause trouble and disrupt the forum.

I guess needto and the rest of the mods run a tight ship and take no shit.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I thought it was ok to talk about the way a mod does his job. I am now perma banned and I will never be coming back to the site. Fuck I should have remembered I was on the aas/training forum where they don't take any of my childish shit. If I had a complaint I should have taken it to admin,a mod in a pm,or called the help desk. I was a dumb ass though and I thought it would be cool to cause trouble and disrupt the forum.

I guess needto and the rest of the mods run a tight ship and take no shit.

EF isn't the kind of place that bans or censors people for having a difference of opinion. But a certain amount of respect is expected.

Discuss, debate or disagree. But just don't complain. And don't be an ass just for the sake of it. Too many serious bros here for that.

 

[needtogetaas]

EF isn't the kind of place that bans or censors people for having a difference of opinion. But a certain amount of respect is expected.

Discuss, debate or disagree. But just don't complain. And don't be an ass just for the sake of it. Too many serious bros here for that.

lol... I am getting sick of the childish shit going on around here in the last week. I am putting the word out to all mods and mentors its time to tighten up ship again. Its always a few who fuck up the fun for every one else.

I cant say this enough. You want to disagree with sponsors or people that is fine. You want to debate that is fine to. You want to call people names,act like a child, or do nothing but complain about the site. Well then you don't need to be here. We have thousands of other members who know how to be adults. hundreds of thousands of other people who know how to talk like one. Thousands of people who love ef and like a nice clean board with out the fighting and kid shit. I think I rather keep these members happy and not the ass hats.

 

[AnonCanada]

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex: It reduces IGF. Fair enough.

Deca:

Some of us have no problems with Deca whatsoever. I cant be alone on this.

Clenbuterol:

Agreed. And now they think it may affect heart valves.

Insulin:

Yep. Too damn dangerous.


Clomid:

Ok

Proviron: never Tried it




Growth Hormone:

Agreed

Anavar:

Whoa Nelly. Ill take Anavar over Primo or Dbol any day of the week. Anavar is the only drug that I know of that is able to decrease visceral fat in the abdominal area. There is anecdotal and imperical data to support this. Furthermore, Anavar is a safe choice fo those concerned with hairloss compared to a DHT based anabolic such as Primo.

Dostinex:

neve tried it.

HCG:

This stuff has been one of teh biggest tools in my arsenal. I will never do antoher cycle without HCG on had.

 

[Tatyana]

Explain to me why HGH would not be good for an injury?

I am not convinced GH is everything that everyone makes out it is.

There are a couple of issues, there are close to 100 different isoforms of GH in the bloodsteam, hGH is cloned, so it will only be one or two of these forms.

It triggers IGF-1 and maybe IGF-2 (sorry can't be bothered to check). IGF-1 does have a wide influence on growth, but there are other growth factors.

If you google growth factors, you will find a huge list of them, these are just a few:



Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β)
Granulocyte-colony stimulating factor (G-CSF)
Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF)
Nerve growth factor (NGF)
Neurotrophins
Platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF)
Erythropoietin (EPO)
Thrombopoietin (TPO)
Myostatin (GDF-8)
Growth differentiation factor-9 (GDF9)
Acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF or FGF-1)
Basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF or FGF-2)
Epidermal growth factor (EGF)
Hepatocyte growth factor (HGF)


As GH is so popular, there is also an issue with quality.

 

[needtogetaas]

I am not convinced GH is everything that everyone makes out it is.

There are a couple of issues, there are close to 100 different isoforms of GH in the bloodsteam, hGH is cloned, so it will only be one or two of these forms.

It triggers IGF-1 and maybe IGF-2 (sorry can't be bothered to check). IGF-1 does have a wide influence on growth, but there are other growth factors.

If you google growth factors, you will find a huge list of them, these are just a few:



Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β)
Granulocyte-colony stimulating factor (G-CSF)
Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF)
Nerve growth factor (NGF)
Neurotrophins
Platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF)
Erythropoietin (EPO)
Thrombopoietin (TPO)
Myostatin (GDF-8)
Growth differentiation factor-9 (GDF9)
Acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF or FGF-1)
Basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF or FGF-2)
Epidermal growth factor (EGF)
Hepatocyte growth factor (HGF)


As GH is so popular, there is also an issue with quality.

Ta has a vagina. Its a nice one too. Good post btw

 

[the_alcatraz]

I thought it was ok to talk about the way a mod does his job. I am now perma banned and I will never be coming back to the site. Fuck I should have remembered I was on the aas/training forum where they don't take any of my childish shit. If I had a complaint I should have taken it to admin,a mod in a pm,or called the help desk. I was a dumb ass though and I thought it would be cool to cause trouble and disrupt the forum.

I guess needto and the rest of the mods run a tight ship and take no shit.

Pwnd!

 

[Nelson Montana]

ta has a vagina. Its a nice one too. Good post btw

what?!!!

 

[ryno9000]

hey, sweet plug! now i'll never buy one of your products.

LOL! Nelson, I really like you man. But seriously, your repeated plugs of UNLEASHED and Big Blast are so in your face that it reminds me of a pushy car salesman. Hmm, why is he so anxious to get me to buy this car? Because it sucks and he wants it off his lot! JK. But seriously it would be nice to hear an opinion once in a while that was based solely on the reason you dislike other drugs w/o forcing comparison of one of your own.

Your products may actually be the shit, I haven't tried them so I can't say. Know why I haven't tried them? Because CLOMID WORKS, I have 0% side effects and I recover quickly and easily every single time. Now if you don't tolerate it well that is one thing, and you should then advertise your stuff as an alternative. But when you put down a chemical that is tried and true and say that yours is simply better than I hate to say but that destroys credibility.

As far as things like deca goes, you are right about it being suppressive. But many people including myself have used it with great success and minimal sides. Plus it has additional benefits such as joint relief etc. that most other steroids cannot offer. So it has its place, just in more moderate doses than you'd run other long esters.

And I fully understand why you don't like insulin. It's not a beginner or even an intermediate thing to use in bodybuilding. But are you SERIOUSLY going to say that BIG BLAST boosts slin levels the same as injecting insulin? I mean, would the top pros be the same as they are now by simply using big blast? I do love Protein Factory stuff, but this is a very bold (and dumb) claim.

I'd type more but I'm tired.

 

[airsmith2k]

It seems almost anti-message board to dismiss some the things people spend time discussing, but in all my years in the sport I've come to realize there are some substances that either don't have merit, aren't as good as once believed, or have been replaced with something better. So my question is; Why still use them?

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex:

This was the brainchild of Dan Duchaine. He was thr first to realizr that if steroids convert to estrogen, use an anti estrogen! It prevented gyno in guys who were using high dosages of dbol. Very smart, But nolva isn't the greatest anti e. It lowers IGF. Destroys HDL and oblitarates libido in most guys. In short, it sucks. Even Dan admitted it didn't work all that well and there were better choices. This was in 1998. 10 years later, people still use it. And in 99% of the cases it does nothing.

Deca:

Another good idea that just doesn't pan out. By being a NOR androgen they thought they could circumvent the androgenic side effects of steroids, but the concept backfired. It is MORE suppressive than straight testosterone. It also bloats every bit as much as testosterone and the bloat comes from an increase in progesterone, not prolactin -- making dosinex useless to combat the bloat and impotence. (Though people keep trying).

Clenbuterol:

How a stimlant, which is catabolic became known as an anti catabolic is beyond me. The effects of Clen are very short lived and the sides are horrible. OTC stims are just as good at fat loss, but using stims for fat loss isn;t the best idea. Most OTC are the same but I have to give a shout to Omega's Lipoflame. It kicks ass and sicne the ingredients of most products are the same, you might as well get something that's a good price and supports the site.

Insulin:

Want to increase insulin after a workout? Drink a jug of Gatordade! Vanadyl sulfate increases insulin as well. And I'll go on the record as saying taking a BIG BLAST after each workout will work as well, if not better. And it won't kill you if you take too much.


Clomid:

Oh, how I hate this shit. I also love how people say it increases seninal volume. Pure rumor, myth and wishful thinking. It LOWERS it. It effects mood, causes depression, can impair sight, cause cancer and in some guys like myself, completely kill libido. This is a drug that was never intended for men. It is an estrogen. Chances are , if it "worked" for you, it was IN SPITE of using it, not because of it. Clomid seems to be benificial in about 20% of the people using it and disastrous in the rest. Today, with products like Alpha Sustain and POST CYCLE as well as superior anti e's like arimidex and aromasan, taking Clomid is like using a rotary phone. There's really no point.

Proviron:

I love Proviron. But UNLEASHED is so damn close to it and it's non supressive and non toxic, I really can't justify using Proviron for the anti SHBG effects.

T3:

It's nuts to use this stuff to burn fat. It will only suppress your thyroid and the 5 pounds you lose will quickly come back and you run the risk of having a sub par thyroid the rest of your life. Don't be an asshole! Use ZIP to hype the tyroid safely.

Growth Hormone:

The most overrated compound in bodybuilding. Sure, if you're a pro and need that extra 2%, you have to use it. But compare the results you'd get from $100 of GH to $100 of testosterone. No contest. GH also is far more dangerous than many are willing to accept. Bodybuilding dosages put you at the risk of many cancers. No worth it. You want GH? Squat and sleep!

Anavar:

First of all, there's nothing var dos that primo doesn't do better. Secondly, I'd stack 25 mgs a day of dbol against 50 mgs of var and the dbol wins. Sure, you get some bloat but a little DEFINITION takes care of that as long as you work up a sweat in your workouts. Besides, a little bloat increases size and strength. Var is weak, overpriced and overrated. There are better options -- mainly, almost any other oral.

Dostinex:

I'm not saying this is NEVER needed but it's need a lot less often than people think. Before you use Dos, CHECK YOUR PROLACTIN LEVEL:S. Don't assume. It has serious side effects. And Mucana Purians lowers prolactin naturally pretty well as does zinc, Vit E and B6.

HCG:

I've never been impressed with HCG but it had its place. It never really "cured" anything but it does give the HPTA a little jump start which helps in recovery. The problem is , people think it actually helps restore the HPTA, which it does not. Also, we've all heard about "Ledig sensitization" though no one can gauge it. After using HCG only once every other month for 2 years I have to say, it seems to do nothing anymore. HMG is the shit. Instead of mimicking LH, it actually increases it, getting the body to work in a more natural manner. It can be used to take a break from gear, as a recovery agent and as an adjunct to HRT. It also is the most powerful sex stimulant on the planet.


That's it bros. Add your own if you like. And although there may be some who will disagree at first, it will become evident that this list is accurate. These are obsolete compounds. It's time to move into the 21st century of anabolic enhancement. That means becoming aware of better products, better techniques, and most importantly, letting go of outdated thinking.

ur insane hgh is prolly one of the best drugs ever created...and if you have a good source for it its not even expensive at all anymore....the stuff completely transformed my body.....also i have no idea why everyone hates deca its a great drug

 

[Nelson Montana]

I thought I was clear but I guess some people misunderstood what I was trying to say.

As for HCG, I merely said that there is a better option. That's the truth. I never said it didn't work or you shouldn't use it. Just that there's a better option. I can't be any clearer.

I give plenty of opinions that have nothing to do with my products.

I promote them because A: They're good. And B: I can;t afford 3 page ads in the magazines. I don;t know about anyone else, but I used a product that worked well, I wouldn't be complaining that it's being advertised. I'd be thankful.

And lastly, everyone has to stop comparing themselves to pros. You're not even close! At that level they'd take rat poison if they thought it might give them an extra ounce. And let's face it, these days aesthetics don't even matter in competitions. It's all about size, and yes, insulin will give size, but not much. YES YOU CAN GROW JUST AS MUCH ON BIG BLAST BECAUSE YOU"RE NOT 320 POUNDS WITH 4% BODY FAT!!! Once you get to that level, fine, do insulin to get to 330 pounds.

And one more thing, BIG BLAST has more IGF-1 than anything on the market. Pros don't need that. But you do.

 

[yankees5677]

This may be a stupid question and Im probably going to realize the answer when I see it.

Whats HMG?

 

[Big_Joe]

Insulin is so easy to manipulate naturally I really don't get why people would use it.

I think the worst thing with insulin is that too many use it to get big and end up getting fat.

Truer words have not been said. Insulin latches on to glucose. It will either shutle it into a mucle cell or a fat cell. And there is really no way to control waht cell it goes to.

This is why type 2 diabetics, insulin resistant, get so fat. The insulin can't get into the muscle cells so it all goes into the fat cells. The muscles are starving and the fat is getting fatter.

 

[access]

This may be a stupid question and Im probably going to realize the answer when I see it.

Whats HMG?

HMG - Human Menopausal Gonadotropin

Human menopausal gonadotropin contain both LH (luteinizing hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and is considered a superior treatment to just HCG which only contains a hormone to mimic LH andf both would be used for PCT or on cycle therapy to halt testes atrophy.

 

[Chrisco915]

I'm not saying HCG doesn't work. Up to this point it's been necessary and I use and recommend it every time. But HMG is simply a better option.

It maybe was unfair to put HCG in this group since it is effective, but I think as more people use HMG, they'll be saying goodbye to HCG.

Do you think that is true of he HRT clinics? After reading this I called a few to see if HMG was an option instead of HCG and they didn't even know what it was.

 

[aquatic_glories]

Insulin is so easy to manipulate naturally I really don't get why people would use it.

Even though I hear many say the risks are over-rated, really, it is a pro-BBer drug IMHO, and high levels of insulin are linked to so many diseases as of late.

I think the worst thing with insulin is that too many use it to get big and end up getting fat.

Also we should note that most people use slin in idiotic dosages, that's the main reason..

 

[ryno9000]

I thought I was clear but I guess some people misunderstood what I was trying to say.

As for HCG, I merely said that there is a better option. That's the truth. I never said it didn't work or you shouldn't use it. Just that there's a better option. I can't be any clearer.

Nelson...it's not clear because look at the title of your post. THINGS YOU DON'T NEED! Maybe if you titled it "Drugs That Have Better Alternatives" People would not get so up in arms. And yes, I did read your post and yes even under the new title I would still disagree about clomid and several others.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Do you think that is true of he HRT clinics? After reading this I called a few to see if HMG was an option instead of HCG and they didn't even know what it was.

Most of those so called "clinics" are jokes -- just dentists and such who can write scripts and do do for everything they can get away with at a hefty profit. I'm not surprised they don't know about HMG, but they will soon enough.

 

[needtogetaas]

LOL! Nelson, I really like you man. But seriously, your repeated plugs of UNLEASHED and Big Blast are so in your face that it reminds me of a pushy car salesman. Hmm, why is he so anxious to get me to buy this car? Because it sucks and he wants it off his lot! JK. But seriously it would be nice to hear an opinion once in a while that was based solely on the reason you dislike other drugs w/o forcing comparison of one of your own.

Your products may actually be the shit, I haven't tried them so I can't say. Know why I haven't tried them? Because CLOMID WORKS, I have 0% side effects and I recover quickly and easily every single time. Now if you don't tolerate it well that is one thing, and you should then advertise your stuff as an alternative. But when you put down a chemical that is tried and true and say that yours is simply better than I hate to say but that destroys credibility.
I am sorry but I have more credibility then anyone on this board and I will outright say it myself I feel products like unleashed,sustain alpha test recovery stack are way better then clomid or nolva for pct. Or at least adding then in with the clomid/nolva is a way better pct.
As far as things like deca goes, you are right about it being suppressive. But many people including myself have used it with great success and minimal sides. Plus it has additional benefits such as joint relief etc. that most other steroids cannot offer. So it has its place, just in more moderate doses than you'd run other long esters.

And I fully understand why you don't like insulin. It's not a beginner or even an intermediate thing to use in bodybuilding. But are you SERIOUSLY going to say that BIG BLAST boosts slin levels the same as injecting insulin? I mean, would the top pros be the same as they are now by simply using big blast? I do love Protein Factory stuff, but this is a very bold (and dumb) claim.

I'd type more but I'm tired.

Meh

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson...it's not clear because look at the title of your post. THINGS YOU DON'T NEED! Maybe if you titled it "Drugs That Have Better Alternatives" People would not get so up in arms. And yes, I did read your post and yes even under the new title I would still disagree about clomid and several others.

So people are "up in arms" because the title should have been a little less provocative.

Touchy, bunch, ain't they?

I stand by all the claims. Even if Clomid works for you, you don't really need it.

 

[heavyset04]

That's fine, but I think whoever wrote that is wrong. Nolva raise T 150%? I say bullshit. If that were true, Nolva would be used for HRT. MAybe if your T is 100, it may get it to 250, but time will do that anyway.

Also, if it raise T so much why do so many guys lose their sex drive while on it?

just learned in my neuropsychology class that testosterone doesnt plau a role in sex drive for males, ie high test doesnt mean the person will have a high sex drive.. one of the points that was made was that orchidectomies were performed on sex offenders to lower their sex drives and they little or no effect.. just thought id throw that out there, never used gear so i cant really say much more

 

[ryno9000]

So people are "up in arms" because the title should have been a little less provocative.

Touchy, bunch, ain't they?

I stand by all the claims. Even if Clomid works for you, you don't really need it.

meh.

 

[Nelson Montana]

just learned in my neuropsychology class that testosterone doesnt plau a role in sex drive for males, ie high test doesnt mean the person will have a high sex drive.. one of the points that was made was that orchidectomies were performed on sex offenders to lower their sex drives and they little or no effect.. just thought id throw that out there, never used gear so i cant really say much more

Testosterone is indeed a factor in libido but not the SOLE factor.

Your neuropsychology professor should be smart enough to realize that sex crimes are not a result of excessive desire but are acts of violence, which are actually more likely in those with LOW testosterone.

 

[lartinos]

I am not convinced GH is everything that everyone makes out it is.

There are a couple of issues, there are close to 100 different isoforms of GH in the bloodsteam, hGH is cloned, so it will only be one or two of these forms.

It triggers IGF-1 and maybe IGF-2 (sorry can't be bothered to check). IGF-1 does have a wide influence on growth, but there are other growth factors.

If you google growth factors, you will find a huge list of them, these are just a few:



Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β)
Granulocyte-colony stimulating factor (G-CSF)
Granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF)
Nerve growth factor (NGF)
Neurotrophins
Platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF)
Erythropoietin (EPO)
Thrombopoietin (TPO)
Myostatin (GDF-8)
Growth differentiation factor-9 (GDF9)
Acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF or FGF-1)
Basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF or FGF-2)
Epidermal growth factor (EGF)
Hepatocyte growth factor (HGF)


As GH is so popular, there is also an issue with quality.

Its good for injuries, but expecially post cycle. Igf-1 by itself is just as good if nit better post cycle. I speak from experience, there arev studies to back up igf-1 as well.

 

[lartinos]

reminds me of the old JA V. Nelson threads.

 

[Nelson Montana]

reminds me of the old JA V. Nelson threads.

Nah, not at all. JA was just a shitbag gnat who liked to harass me and the reigning mods did nothing about it because they had an agenda where they'd monopolize the board.

In doing so, they could say what they wanted and do what they wanted and have complete control over what products were promoted -- their own of course.

The site was sinking into a cesspool of cronyism. This is NOTHING like that!

The site is a thousand times improved, more versatile, more open, more respectful with better information and smarter members. Discussions are lively without nastiness and if anyone makes personal attacks, they're slapped down right quick. Props to Rick, George, Frank, and the current mods for that.

 

[joe d]

just learned in my neuropsychology class that testosterone doesnt plau a role in sex drive for males, ie high test doesnt mean the person will have a high sex drive.. one of the points that was made was that orchidectomies were performed on sex offenders to lower their sex drives and they little or no effect.. just thought id throw that out there, never used gear so i cant really say much more

then why im i hornier than a 13 yr old boy at a lesbo sex party on my test cycles?

 

[Wulfgar]

Fact of the matter is MOST guys dont NEED anything but proper food/ a few vitamins/ hard training/ and adequate rest to achieve all their goals

 

[Juicin]

Truer words have not been said. Insulin latches on to glucose. It will either shutle it into a mucle cell or a fat cell. And there is really no way to control waht cell it goes to.

This is why type 2 diabetics, insulin resistant, get so fat. The insulin can't get into the muscle cells so it all goes into the fat cells. The muscles are starving and the fat is getting fatter.

Not really the way it works but you have the right idea. also insulin resistance causes lack of insulin activity in all cells not just muscle cells.

 

[aquatic_glories]

Not really the way it works but you have the right idea. also insulin resistance causes lack of insulin activity in all cells not just muscle cells.

Can you tell us the things you know please??
How exactly does that work??

thanks

 

[Juicin]

Can you tell us the things you know please??
How exactly does that work??

thanks

sure
Insulin binds to insulin receptors in cell membranes of almost all cells in the body. The insulin receptor if i remember correctly is a JAK (tyrosine kinase) that autophosphorylates itself for action. The Insulin bound receptor complex is subsequently internalized by the cell, where under various and complicated mechanisms activates glucose transporters mainly the glut-4 transporter. The glut-4 transporter when not acted on by insulin remains packaged intracellularly. When it s activated, the glut-4 is translocated to the cell membrane where it can facillitate the uptake of glucose into the cell.

So it is not insulin that carries glucose into the cell, but it does facillitate its uptake.

Insulin not only affects the uptake of glucose into cells, but also the uptake of amino acids and the uptake of fats and triglycerides into adipose (fat) cells.

 

[the_alcatraz]

Fact of the matter is MOST guys dont NEED anything but proper food/ a few vitamins/ hard training/ and adequate rest to achieve all their goals

Well, they're not going to look like you fuck I wish I did, but you're right...most think steroids are magic...they're not...they're not everything

 

[viciousness]

It seems almost anti-message board to dismiss some the things people spend time discussing, but in all my years in the sport I've come to realize there are some substances that either don't have merit, aren't as good as once believed, or have been replaced with something better. So my question is; Why still use them?

Here is my list of things you do not need.

Nolvadex:

This was the brainchild of Dan Duchaine. He was thr first to realizr that if steroids convert to estrogen, use an anti estrogen! It prevented gyno in guys who were using high dosages of dbol. Very smart, But nolva isn't the greatest anti e. It lowers IGF. Destroys HDL and oblitarates libido in most guys. In short, it sucks. Even Dan admitted it didn't work all that well and there were better choices. This was in 1998. 10 years later, people still use it. And in 99% of the cases it does nothing.

Deca:

Another good idea that just doesn't pan out. By being a NOR androgen they thought they could circumvent the androgenic side effects of steroids, but the concept backfired. It is MORE suppressive than straight testosterone. It also bloats every bit as much as testosterone and the bloat comes from an increase in progesterone, not prolactin -- making dosinex useless to combat the bloat and impotence. (Though people keep trying).

Clenbuterol:

How a stimlant, which is catabolic became known as an anti catabolic is beyond me. The effects of Clen are very short lived and the sides are horrible. OTC stims are just as good at fat loss, but using stims for fat loss isn;t the best idea. Most OTC are the same but I have to give a shout to Omega's Lipoflame. It kicks ass and sicne the ingredients of most products are the same, you might as well get something that's a good price and supports the site.

Insulin:

Want to increase insulin after a workout? Drink a jug of Gatordade! Vanadyl sulfate increases insulin as well. And I'll go on the record as saying taking a BIG BLAST after each workout will work as well, if not better. And it won't kill you if you take too much.


Clomid:

Oh, how I hate this shit. I also love how people say it increases seninal volume. Pure rumor, myth and wishful thinking. It LOWERS it. It effects mood, causes depression, can impair sight, cause cancer and in some guys like myself, completely kill libido. This is a drug that was never intended for men. It is an estrogen. Chances are , if it "worked" for you, it was IN SPITE of using it, not because of it. Clomid seems to be benificial in about 20% of the people using it and disastrous in the rest. Today, with products like Alpha Sustain and POST CYCLE as well as superior anti e's like arimidex and aromasan, taking Clomid is like using a rotary phone. There's really no point.

Proviron:

I love Proviron. But UNLEASHED is so damn close to it and it's non supressive and non toxic, I really can't justify using Proviron for the anti SHBG effects.

T3:

It's nuts to use this stuff to burn fat. It will only suppress your thyroid and the 5 pounds you lose will quickly come back and you run the risk of having a sub par thyroid the rest of your life. Don't be an asshole! Use ZIP to hype the tyroid safely.

Growth Hormone:

The most overrated compound in bodybuilding. Sure, if you're a pro and need that extra 2%, you have to use it. But compare the results you'd get from $100 of GH to $100 of testosterone. No contest. GH also is far more dangerous than many are willing to accept. Bodybuilding dosages put you at the risk of many cancers. No worth it. You want GH? Squat and sleep!

Anavar:

First of all, there's nothing var dos that primo doesn't do better. Secondly, I'd stack 25 mgs a day of dbol against 50 mgs of var and the dbol wins. Sure, you get some bloat but a little DEFINITION takes care of that as long as you work up a sweat in your workouts. Besides, a little bloat increases size and strength. Var is weak, overpriced and overrated. There are better options -- mainly, almost any other oral.

Dostinex:

I'm not saying this is NEVER needed but it's need a lot less often than people think. Before you use Dos, CHECK YOUR PROLACTIN LEVEL:S. Don't assume. It has serious side effects. And Mucana Purians lowers prolactin naturally pretty well as does zinc, Vit E and B6.

HCG:

I've never been impressed with HCG but it had its place. It never really "cured" anything but it does give the HPTA a little jump start which helps in recovery. The problem is , people think it actually helps restore the HPTA, which it does not. Also, we've all heard about "Ledig sensitization" though no one can gauge it. After using HCG only once every other month for 2 years I have to say, it seems to do nothing anymore. HMG is the shit. Instead of mimicking LH, it actually increases it, getting the body to work in a more natural manner. It can be used to take a break from gear, as a recovery agent and as an adjunct to HRT. It also is the most powerful sex stimulant on the planet.


That's it bros. Add your own if you like. And although there may be some who will disagree at first, it will become evident that this list is accurate. These are obsolete compounds. It's time to move into the 21st century of anabolic enhancement. That means becoming aware of better products, better techniques, and most importantly, letting go of outdated thinking.

LOL no joke this was the illest plug ive ever read. people should by the products just on the strength of the obama like mind controling!

 

[Nelson Montana]

LOL no joke this was the illest plug ive ever read. people should by the products just on the strength of the obama like mind controling!

Obama -like mind controlling? Whoa! Well, I think there are some legitimate issues here. And sure, there are a few alternatives (some of which not my products) but keep in mind, I designed my products to be alternatives to what I found to be lousy drugs. As for HMG, that's just a recent discovery and I was giving a heads up. No one has to try it and it would change my bank account one dime. But as bodybuilders who see themselves on the cutting edge, it's something we should all know about.

 

[fast_lane]

Truer words have not been said. Insulin latches on to glucose. It will either shutle it into a mucle cell or a fat cell. And there is really no way to control waht cell it goes to.

This is why type 2 diabetics, insulin resistant, get so fat. The insulin can't get into the muscle cells so it all goes into the fat cells. The muscles are starving and the fat is getting fatter.

U cant control in witch cell it go like u say,but if u dont have any fat cells like the pros...IT will have to go in a muscle cell...

 

[aquatic_glories]

I believe it has much to do with insulin sensitivity. If you are at low BF%, slin should work better for you. Because BF% usually have connections with slin sensivity.
Fish oil,cinnamon,apple vinegar also helps, especailly fish oil.
And don't abuse carbs!! Even if you are on grams of gear!!

 

[Wulfgar]

Insulin Sensitivity is what it is all about

My top list of OTC supps to increase sensitivity are
Taurine
Glutamine
Corsolic acid
fenugreek seed(4-hydroxyisoluecine)
D-Ribose
Omega 3 supps
FIBER!!
Argninine

if you want to go the pharm route Glip is good amongst others

 

[needtogetaas]

Insulin Sensitivity is what it is all about

My top list of OTC supps to increase sensitivity are
Taurine
Glutamine
Corsolic acid
fenugreek seed(4-hydroxyisoluecine)
D-Ribose
Omega 3 supps
FIBER!!
Argninine

if you want to go the pharm route Glip is good amongst others

What??? some one at pro level using sups??????? This is un herd of.

 

[Nelson Montana]

What??? some one at pro level using sups??????? This is un herd of.

LOL. I'd say 90% of the pros I've interviewed say they use supps. What they DON'T take is shit like prohormones or psuedo anti e's. No need, really. Also, they may not take T boosters because, again, why? When you're doing 2 grams of test a week it really doesn;t matter. But to the guy who does a couple of cycles a year and wants to make the most of his "natty" time, they can make a difference. If they're good.

 

[needtogetaas]

LOL. I'd say 90% of the pros I've interviewed say they use supps. What they DON'T take is shit like prohormones or psuedo anti e's. No need, really. Also, they may not take T boosters because, again, why? When you're doing 2 grams of test a week it really doesn;t matter. But to the guy who does a couple of cycles a year and wants to make the most of his "natty" time, they can make a difference. If they're good.

Ya I pretty much know the deal. I was just saying it for the people that love to say. "all I use is juice" I have sent no money to sup companies. Look at me I am doing just fine" You might have seen a post like this around ef in the last month

 

[doogle]

so you would you say 4iu of hgh a day for 6 month would have or could have cancer effects?? i know you said body building doses but what do you class as body building doses 15 iu a day?? my main question is 4iu aday a big deal?

 

[doogle]

bump give me answer bro

 

[doogle]

bump

 

[doogle]

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