*The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruising*

[needtogetaas]

When one hormone stimulates the production of a second, the second suppresses the production of the first.meh

 

[samoth]

AMEN, and PERFECTLY well articulated.

The FACTS are FACTS.

I am done arguing for tonight, I will let him FEEL LIKE he is correct..LOL

Bottom line, HPTA suppression can not be TOTALLY AVOIDED, but it certainly CAN be reduced.

Dude, you're the one proposing a new theory, so you're responsible for defending it -- and constantly saying X IS FACT doesn't cut it. You have to prove that x is indeed fact, which you seem to be adamantly avoiding for some reason.

To break your OP down:

1) "At the end of your cycle's duration, you are COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN"

This is incorrect. It entirely depends on the compounds used, time on cycle, among other factors.

2) "This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover."

As we both agreed prior, there's no such thing as a non-inhibitory anabolic steroid. Which are you arguing?

3) "Dianabol [among others] WILL NOT shutdown the HPTA"

You're obfuscating the complete shutdown and partial shutdown syntax again. Dianabol most definitely does inhibit the HPTA. What evidence do you have for other drugs "completely" shutting one down? That graph you posted several times doesn't show the line crossing the x-axis, so you're arguing something that graph does not show -- and you didn't even reference where you got this piece of information from! There's far too many variables involved to put things in such simple yes/no or it-does/it-doesn't terms. The effects of steroids on the system far exceeds only considering a general case of three single receptors.

If you're going to present numerous new ideas generated from the internet instead of medical science, you really need to reference where you get your supposed facts from. The idea that supression cannot be totally avoided but can be reduced is nothing new at all... and arguing smaller nuances like how much drugs shut one down relative to another is something you better have some damn good research backing, because without any, you're just thinking out loud here, not presenting any facts or substantiated information.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Samoth, check any EBM published journal. It is generally understood that the majority of older medical research used poor research methods. Thats the reason that EBM came about. With all your knowledge I would think you would know that. I'm not questioning your knowledge but you really should have known that. As for the ability to say that about any study, that's not true. The true mark of a good study is the ability of it to be repeated. Newton's studies are able to be repeated, and therefore it's results can not be refuted. However some of these studies done earlier weren't double blind studies and weren't using the best research methods. Look into it if you want, it is what it is.

Samoth really isn't arguing a point, per se. Granted, I've only skimmed this thread, but from what I'm reading, Samoth is not arguing his own point on steroids (and if so, only as an afterthought), but rather (mostly) asking for references and presenting some standard logical guidelines that he thinks the author of the thread ought to adhere to when coming to conclusions regarding anabolics.

Samoth can, of course, correct me if I'm wrong; but this is how I'm reading things....

 

[njmuscleguy]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

i would favor selegilene, B6, tyrosine, maca, etc. there is a tendency for prolactin levels to be amplified with age and/or progestin use so i think these users need to be somewhat more mindful of prolactin management.

I've tried selegiline before, not sure if I'm a fan. I didn't know that B6, tyrosine, and maca reduce prolactin. Is this documented? (too lazy to search right now)

 

[njmuscleguy]

Ok, so Samoth, Ross... can we just basically sum up your last 5 pages or so into a nice concise post? Ross, I have a handle of what you're advocating, regardless of proof backing it up.... Samoth, so you're saying that none of Ross' proposal on "Pre-PCT" has merit (no documented proof)? Do you agree with any of Ross' regimen? (ie. Jumpstart, base, finisher...etc).

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

I've tried selegiline before, not sure if I'm a fan. I didn't know that B6, tyrosine, and maca reduce prolactin. Is this documented? (too lazy to search right now)

B6 also reduces androgen transcription.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

B6 also reduces androgen transcription.

so does that mean one would be less responsive to androgen if taking B6?

 

[samoth]

Samoth really isn't arguing a point, per se. Granted, I've only skimmed this thread, but from what I'm reading, Samoth is not arguing his own point on steroids (and if so, only as an afterthought), but rather (mostly) asking for references and presenting some standard logical guidelines that he thinks the author of the thread ought to adhere to when coming to conclusions regarding anabolics.

Samoth can, of course, correct me if I'm wrong; but this is how I'm reading things....

Bingo!

Ok, so Samoth, Ross... can we just basically sum up your last 5 pages or so into a nice concise post? Ross, I have a handle of what you're advocating, regardless of proof backing it up.... Samoth, so you're saying that none of Ross' proposal on "Pre-PCT" has merit (no documented proof)? Do you agree with any of Ross' regimen? (ie. Jumpstart, base, finisher...etc).

It's an interesting theory that could have theoretical merit... but not in the way the OP is presenting it. The premises of his theory are flawed, his logical processes are skewed, he has given no substantive evidense, he doesn't know how to read a graph, and overall his defense demonstrates a lack of understanding of the subject as a whole.

"Jumpstarting" has been around for many years; That's nothing new, regardless of cute names. The "finisher" area of cycle theories nowadays are relatively new to me, at least their popularity and following. It's always been around and discussed, but it was seen as largely unnecessary with few applications.



So the upshot here, generally speaking, is that the Pre-PCT idea has far too many holes, and the author is unable to defend his ideas. This is usually considered, well, fishy, in academia...

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

so does that mean one would be less responsive to androgen if taking B6?

Exactly. People who reccomend b6 are operating off of a flawed assumption, and usually a lack uf understanding of the superfamily of steroid receptors.

I put the B6 information on reducing androgen gene transcription up on steroid.com several months ago, and I think it's starting to become common knolwedge now.

 

[jmead]

so basically ross cant disprove anything sammoth is saying.. and has no medical proof that any of this is true..

id like to see the bloodwork you keep talking about that proves this whole theory