*The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruising*

[samoth]

85% of medical research is bunk. That's why there's a new movement in health sciences called EBM(Evidence Based Medicine). Before believing wholeheartedly in any study, I would first check to see if it follows the EBM process of research. Studies that have been proven have also been disproven based on invalid research methods. I'm not saying anyone's suggested studies are bunk, but there's a good chance some of it is based on the numbers.

Where would one acquire such evidence? Certainly not on the anonymous internets wherein people discuss their use of illegal substances.

However, to be able to adequately analyze any research or study, one must first be familar with the material in which they're analyzing. This usually requires formal education in such subjects, which, generally speaking, is not representative of most people posting on steroid boards.

Arguing "invalid research methods" really gets at the heart of pretty much what all research is based on. For a basic example, Newton's calculation of the gravitational constand was certainly limited by his, by today's standards, invalid research methods. Yet, the principles and concepts remain. They are merely expounded upon with modern-day technology and techniques unavailable yesterday. Every area of science is this way, medicine and pharmacology included. It's pretty much a given from the get-go; that is, everyone already knows this.

And stating that "85% of medical research is bunk" is quite a statement. I'd love to hear where that nice, even number comes from.

 

[Ross]

Every anabolic steroid will cause a negative feedback loop affecting one's HPTA. By the same reasoning, every steroid can theoretically cause "absolute" shutdown, and, conversely, every steroid has the potential to not cause "absolute" shutdown. Dancing in circles leads nowhere and shows nothing.

Your flaw in reasoning is seeing this "shutdown" as an absolute black-and-white idea. This is incorrect.



Please provide publications demonstrating the latter.

Oh, wait, you're referring to this absolute shutdown concept again, aren't you?



I really don't think any anabolic steroid will cause this absolute complete shutdown you keep mentioning. The axis to which you're referring is not thought of in such terms, thus your argumentative foundation cannot be expounded.



Incorrect.



Umm... you know what that graph is of, right? Hint: Check the axes. It says absolutely nothing regarding endogeneous hormone production, merely the decay rate in time as a function of plasma concentrations for different esterifications of nandrolone administered at different sites.



I'm really starting to wonder if this is a joke account or something. You keep reiterating stuff that doesn't make sense while backing it up with either unrelated or unsubstantiated attempt at evidence.

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

I POSTED THE WRONG IMAGE, check again, I changed it.

BOTTOM LINE, although all steroids can "theoretically cause SHUTDOWN", used at their effective dosages, Primobolan, Anavar, Dianabol, Turinabol, Proviron and Masteron cause MUCH LESS HPTA SUPPRESSION than Tren, Deca, Test, and Drol.

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

 

[samoth]

he seems like a good bro but i agree seems like a computer or something sometimes. we went at it over dost opinions and he just keeps spewing the same advertisment looking responses. but maybe he just sticks by his point that firmly. either way he copy and pastes

LOL, his editor certainly does a good job. What confuses me is that he doesn't seem to be trying to sell anything!

Hmm... maybe he's ESL or something, lol.

I think it's encouraging to see ideas in anabolic theory explored, however, a basic working knowledge is of the utmost importance. Endocrinologists earn an average of around $500k a year (give or take a couple hundred thousand) after a rigerous 10-15 years of undergrad, med school and residency. This subject simply isn't something that can be thoroughly analyzed and discussed without at least some basic education (and non-internet based knowledge). Presenting ideas and theories are great, but one can never do so with adamant certainty. This isn't something that's in basic black and white by any stretch of the imagination, and those attempting to make it appear so are only deluding themselves and those who might be to naive to know any better. Heck, I'd say the finer details of the HTHP axis and it's supression are beyond the knowledge of every single person in this thread... and probably every person who actively posts on this forum, lol.

 

[Ross]

You seem to have missed this:

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

I POSTED THE WRONG IMAGE, check again, I changed it.

BOTTOM LINE, although all steroids can "theoretically cause SHUTDOWN", used at their effective dosages, Primobolan, Anavar, Dianabol, Turinabol, Proviron and Masteron cause MUCH LESS HPTA SUPPRESSION than Tren, Deca, Test, and Drol.

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

 

[ProtienFiend]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

LOL, his editor certainly does a good job. What confuses me is that he doesn't seem to be trying to sell anything!

Hmm... maybe he's ESL or something, lol.

I think it's encouraging to see ideas in anabolic theory explored, however, a basic working knowledge is of the utmost importance. Endocrinologists earn an average of around $500k a year (give or take a couple hundred thousand) after a rigerous 10-15 years of undergrad, med school and residency. This subject simply isn't something that can be thoroughly analyzed and discussed without at least some basic education (and non-internet based knowledge). Presenting ideas and theories are great, but one can never do so with adamant certainty. This isn't something that's in basic black and white by any stretch of the imagination, and those attempting to make it appear so are only deluding themselves and those who might be to naive to know any better. Heck, I'd say the finer details of the HTHP axis and it's supression are beyond the knowledge of every single person in this thread... and probably every person who actively posts on this forum, lol.

I'm glad someone stepped in here to put our "experts" in check (albeit smugly). Samoth brings up a good point that most "Experts" aren't even educated in the sciences in the least. Its like, would you let one of these guys do surgery on you after reading a internet tutorial on the subject? NO!

Ive always liked Nelson because he doesn't spout as much crap about potentially harmful subjects that he has no knowledge of. He knows hes not a scientist!

 

[samoth]

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

I POSTED THE WRONG IMAGE, check again, I changed it.

Okay, I see the y-axis now reads "testosterone" instead of "nandrolone". There's still no real information in the graph. I mean, it's pretty and stuff, but what is it trying to say?

BOTTOM LINE, although all steroids can "theoretically cause SHUTDOWN", used at their effective dosages, Primobolan, Anavar, Dianabol, Turinabol, Proviron and Masteron cause MUCH LESS HPTA SUPPRESSION than Tren, Deca, Test, and Drol.

200mg of Primo = MILD SUPPRESSION
200mg of DECA= SEVERE HPTA INHIBITION

Whether much less or much more suppression seems to destroy your theory of going from complete shutdown -> inhibited -> recovered. Since the formermost element is removed, it reduces to inhibited -> recovered, which has been the basic post-cycle theory for the past few decades.

What makes you believe that, given initial HTHP axis suppression a, use of less androgenic (and thus less suppressive) anabolic steroids will lead to a secondary suppression state b, b < a, where the initial suppressionary state (as a function of time and compounds used) is independent of state b, b(components,time_2)? The secondary state is dependent on the initial components and their respective times as well as it's own components and times. You cannot simply assume non-dependence and linearity -- the initial suppression a is not reduced to a lesser state b simply by changing the components of the cycle.

The less inhibitory components are nonetheless still inhibitory, and when used with an already-suppressed HPTA still impart suppressive characteristics on the system. The system will remain suppressed so long as supraphysiological amounts of exogeneous hormone exist within the organism. I see where you're trying to come from, but this part of the body doesn't work that way in time frames consistant with the average cycle. (Thsi may, however, be interesting to apply to long-term anabolic steroid use.)

As an analogy of another suppressive/regressive system in the body, take the effect on acetylcholine by a user of MDMA: The "crash" and depletion of ACh cannot be avoided simply by using MA instead of MDMA based on the reasoning that MA depletes ACh to a lesser extent than MDMA. The already-suppressed levels of ACh in the PFC do not regress with administration of a weaker version of the same compound causing this inhibition; rather, it continues to remain suppressed until all use of ACh-inhibiting substances has ceased and the system is allowed to return to equilibrium. Reuptake inhibitors and MAOI's here would be analogous to chorionic gonadotropin and clomiphene.

 

[samoth]

Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

I'm glad someone stepped in here to put our "experts" in check (albeit smugly).

LOL. I wouldn't be so smug if people would go to the trouble of opening up a single damn book on this subject before talking about how others should self-administer controlled drugs.

Supply and demand has been booming in the steroid market over the past few years, and with that, so have the inherent dangers of using these injectable and often basement-produced drugs.

Many people want results, and they want results now -- but without some time gathering a basic understanding of what they're doing and how they're affecting their body, I fear the whole steroid scene will bust... not unlike the booms of numerous other illegal drugs before...

Knowledge has been passed over by the ease and entertainment of the internet, likewise safety by the low-cost of imported powders. Sadly, I don't think many people, especially the younger crowd, really appreciate the importance of good health... and they shouldn't have to realize this after it's already too late...

 

[Ross]

Okay, I see the y-axis now reads "testosterone" instead of "nandrolone". There's still no real information in the graph. I mean, it's pretty and stuff, but what is it trying to say?



Whether much less or much more suppression seems to destroy your theory of going from complete shutdown -> inhibited -> recovered. Since the formermost element is removed, it reduces to inhibited -> recovered, which has been the basic post-cycle theory for the past few decades.

What makes you believe that, given initial HTHP axis suppression a, use of less androgenic (and thus less suppressive) anabolic steroids will lead to a secondary suppression state b, b < a, where the initial suppressionary state (as a function of time and compounds used) is independent of state b, b(components,time_2)? The secondary state is dependent on the initial components and their respective times as well as it's own components and times. You cannot simply assume non-dependence and linearity -- the initial suppression a is not reduced to a lesser state b simply by changing the components of the cycle.

The less inhibitory components are nonetheless still inhibitory, and when used with an already-suppressed HPTA still impart suppressive characteristics on the system. The system will remain suppressed so long as supraphysiological amounts of exogeneous hormone exist within the organism. I see where you're trying to come from, but this part of the body doesn't work that way in time frames consistant with the average cycle. (Thsi may, however, be interesting to apply to long-term anabolic steroid use.)

As an analogy of another suppressive/regressive system in the body, take the effect on acetylcholine by a user of MDMA: The "crash" and depletion of ACh cannot be avoided simply by using MA instead of MDMA based on the reasoning that MA depletes ACh to a lesser extent than MDMA. The already-suppressed levels of ACh in the PFC do not regress with administration of a weaker version of the same compound causing this inhibition; rather, it continues to remain suppressed until all use of ACh-inhibiting substances has ceased and the system is allowed to return to equilibrium. Reuptake inhibitors and MAOI's here would be analogous to chorionic gonadotropin and clomiphene.

The hypothalamus has ANDROGEN, ESTROGEN, and PROGESTERONE receptors.

SOME steriods activate the ESTROGEN receptor(Testosterone, Dianabol, Deca), while some steroids do NOT activate the estrogen receptor AT ALL(Primobolan, Anavar, Masteron).

Some steroids activate the PROGESTERONE receptor. (Trenbolone, Deca)

ALL steroids activate the ANDROGEN receptor to varying degrees.

This is why SOME steroids cause SHUTDOWN(by oversaturating the receptors), while others do NOT(do NOT activate enough receptors for the hypothalamus to respond by shutting down the HPTA).

The ONLY WAY that the HPTA can remain in a state of shutdown, is if the various hormone receptors in the Hypothalamus remain ACTIVATED.

When you are OFF cycle and simply running 200mgs Primo/50mgs Proviron, you are NOT providing sufficient substrate to cause overactivation of the hormone receptors in the hypothalamus and subsequently cause SHUTDOWN.

LH/FSH output will resume when the Hypothalamus detects a DECREASE in the number of androgen receptors activated, which INEVITABLELY happens.

It is difficult to QUANTIFY how quickly one will recover while running a Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), as it depends GREATLY on the individual. Having said that, it is pretty safe to assume that just about ANYONE with a relatively healthy HPTA would recover 50% testosterone production using 300mgs Primobolan for 6 weeks. After the HPTA has 50% recovered, and you STILL continued to make gains, now you can start your AGRESSIVE PCT regimen.

EVEN a 25% recovery would be enough to COMPLETELY AVOID a POST CYCLE CRASH. This is the objective.

 

[samoth]

This is why SOME steroids cause SHUTDOWN(by oversaturating the receptors), while others do NOT(do NOT activate enough receptors for the hypothalamus to respond by shutting down the HPTA).

If by "shutdown", you're referring to a complete shutdown of the HPTA, I argue this and request literature from a peer-reviewed journal or similar source to verify what you're trying to say.

There's always some degree of inhibition. There exists no absolute or total lack of inhibition or shutdown when using anabolic steroids.

The ONLY WAY that the HPTA can remain in a state of shutdown, is if the various hormone receptors in the Hypothalamus remain ACTIVATED.

... by the presence of excessive exogeneous androgens, yes.

When you are OFF cycle and simply running 200mgs Primo/50mgs Proviron, you are NOT providing sufficient substrate to cause overactivation of the hormone receptors in the hypothalamus and subsequently cause SHUTDOWN.

Dude, if you're using steroids, you're not off cycle.

LH/FSH output will resume when the Hypothalamus detects a DECREASE in the number of androgen receptors activated, which INEVITABLELY happens.

So, by this logic, going from 5g/week of steroid x to 4.9g/week of steroid y for any given choice of x and y based upon your theory, than this would similarly remain true.

However, it does not hold, thus your premise is flawed.

... it is pretty safe to assume that just about ANYONE with a relatively healthy HPTA would recover 50% testosterone production using 300mgs Primobolan for 6 weeks.

And where do you derive this statement? Has this been explicitly demonstrated and catalogued, or did you just made this up? This certainly doesn't hold in the limiting cases, so your assumption partially holds at best.

After the HPTA has 50% recovered, and you STILL continued to make gains, now you can start your AGRESSIVE PCT regimen.

Well, you can still make gains with a completely non-functional HPTA, too, by supplementing oneself with the lacking hormones.

Further, the idea that post-cycle drugs are dependent solely on HPTA suppression is incorrect. If there exist remaining exogeneous hormones in the organism, all this fancy PCT stuff won't do much good. Regression of the thalamous-pituitary axis is dependent on baseline levels of hormones -- meaning little or no remaining steroids.

EVEN a 25% recovery would be enough to COMPLETELY AVOID a POST CYCLE CRASH. This is the objective.

No, actually, this is subjective.

 

[Ross]

If by "shutdown", you're referring to a complete shutdown of the HPTA, I argue this and request literature from a peer-reviewed journal or similar source to verify what you're trying to say.

There's always some degree of inhibition. There exists no absolute or total lack of inhibition or shutdown when using anabolic steroids.



... by the presence of excessive exogeneous androgens, yes.



Dude, if you're using steroids, you're not off cycle.



So, by this logic, going from 5g/week of steroid x to 4.9g/week of steroid y for any given choice of x and y based upon your theory, than this would similarly remain true.

However, it does not hold, thus your premise is flawed.



And where do you derive this statement? Has this been explicitly demonstrated and catalogued, or did you just made this up? This certainly doesn't hold in the limiting cases, so your assumption partially holds at best.



Well, you can still make gains with a completely non-functional HPTA, too, by supplementing oneself with the lacking hormones.

Further, the idea that post-cycle drugs are dependent solely on HPTA suppression is incorrect. If there exist remaining exogeneous hormones in the organism, all this fancy PCT stuff won't do much good. Regression of the thalamous-pituitary axis is dependent on baseline levels of hormones -- meaning little or no remaining steroids.



No, actually, this is subjective.

Not all steroids are EQUAL.

Primobolan does NOT affect the HPTA as profoundly as DECA. This is a FACT, I don't know what we are debating.

As for being able to PARTIALLY RECOVER while administering Primobolan, I have done it NUMEROUS TIMES my man. WHO WOULD WANT TO GO DIRECTLY FROM A STATE OF TOTAL HPTA INHIBITION, DIRECTLY INTO PCT???

You can actually REDUCE HPTA INHIBITION just by using an AROMATASE INHIBITOR! THAT is a FACT, jack.

Furthermore, prolactin sensitizes the HPTA. Reducing prolactin to subnormal levels whilst on cycle wil enable the user to TRICK THE HPTA into thinking it is NOT on cycle.

There are many ways to reduce HPTA inhibition/suppression. Though, the POINT IS, not ALL steriods cause signifcant HPTA inhibition! This is a MYTH, not based on SCIENCE.