Taking steroids before you reach your genetic limit

[cyrex]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Why would someone want to wait until they reach their genetic limit to take steroids. Let's face it, we have a limited amount of time on this earth and the sooner we can get big and strong the more BB competitions, strongment competitions, powerlifting competitions, hot chicks to fuck, etc there will be.

Let's take a deeper look into what steroids do.
Steroids influence muscle growth. They are a catalyst for protein synthesis. If you train hard and eat just as hard, you will grow muscle at a much accelerated rate compared to not taking AAS. When a young man is 18 years old, he has a lot of extra testosterone running through his veins anyway so he is able to gain muscle at an accelerated rate compared to the rest of his life. Am I saying that he should take steroids to get bigger and stronger faster? Absolutely NOT.

Basic terminology:
LBM - Lean Body Mass
HGH - Human Growth Hormone
Steroids - Any questionable substances that serve as a catalyst of muscle growth (for the sake of simplicity, let us include things like HGH, Insulin, IGF-1, etc in this definition)
Adult - Anyone who's growth plates have fused and natural bone structure is no longer growing.
Let's make up some terminology here for the sake of discussion.
Base Velocity of Muscle Growth (BVMG):

This is the base amount of muscle growth that occurs naturally in the human body.

It may be calculated by the following formula:
BVMG = ([After LBM] - [Before LBM]) / ([Before] - [After])
Where:
After is a specific time when final measurements are taken
Before is a specific time when initial measurements are taken
​

Elapsed Time (ET):

This is any reasonable amount of time that measurements will be taken in. For the subject of this discussion, let's assume a 12 week period as this allows for the easiest measurements to produce accuracy. If we were to shorten this period to hours, we would need to take a biopsy of muscle tissue and study the protein synthesis occuring through a microscope. I'm not sure how many of us here want to measure our gains with a biopsy . . .​

Acceleration Due to Catalysts (ADC):

This is the 'boost' given by increasing natural factors for muscle growth. This does not 'necessarily' require steroids, but does require maximizing protein synthesis by any means possible. Rest, diet, hormone levels, HGH and other health levels will determine what is required to reach this.
For the following discussion we will assume that ADC requires maximizing to one's best ability ALL controlable factors.
The reason this assumption must be made is because the formula to obtain the actual ADC is the following:

ADC = ([TVMG] - [BVMG])/[ET]

This formula causes a problem when we look at the formula below for TVMG. It is cyclical. There are other, much more complicated formulas we could use, but they involve more confounds dealing with accurate measurements.
​

Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (TVMG):

This is the maximum amount of muscle and strength one can gain safely. This should take into account factors such as body weight increase and the extra load it puts on the heart in the period of time. There are issues such as tendon and ligament strength and how well the body is able to increase those factors along with the muscle growth. Obviously there is a maximum amount of food, training and rest that one can obtain, and lastly the body may have a physical limit to the amount of protein synthesis that can occur based on other internal factors.

TVMG can be calculated with the following formulas:
TVMG = [BVMG] + [ADC] * [ET]

A simple explanation to this is "The most muscle you can gain in a given time(TVMG) is determined by adding together your base natural muslce growth rate(BVMG) plus maximizing synthesis using catalysts(ADC) over the period of time in question(ET)"
​

Natural Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (NTVMG):

NTVMG is simply TVMG minus any use of steroids
NTVMG = [BVMG] + (([ADC] - Steroids) * [ET])
​

Back to the discussion.
Q. When is it logical to begin taking steroids?
A. When the pros outweight the cons
Yes this is the 'easy' answer, but how do we know when the pros outweigh the cons. First, there are legal and health issues. I will leave these OUT of this conversation and assume that legalities are not an issue and that you are a healthy male Adult. After these requirements are met, I would like to argue that the pros outweight the cons when (TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG). Translation: When taking steroids gives you faster gains compared to maximizing everything other than steroid use (diet, rest, training) as opposed to maximizing those things compared to what you would consider your BVMG.

Tossing out my terminology, simply when hardwork alone compared to your normal lifestyle gives less gains than steroids + hardwork compared to hardwork alone.

Again, let me reiterate this because I feel this is the most important point of my argument. Taking steroids is smartest when the use of them gives you more of an advantage than just training hard and eating right does. For example, if Brutus, an all star wrestler is gaining 1 lb of muscle per week by eating a great diet, training hard, and getting more than enough rest(NTVMG) and we assume that Brutus would only gain 1 lb of muscle per month or 0.23 lb of muscle per week if his diet was not on track(BVMG), but adding in his choice of steroid(s)(TVMG) he is able to gain 1.5 lb of muscle per week then using the formula I suggested ((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
1.5 - 1 > 1 - .23
or
.5 > .77
As any 5th grader will tell you, .5 is NOT greater than .77 so it would NOT be efficient for brutus to use steroids.

Of course not, Brutus is only 19 years old. He is done growing but those nuts of his are pumping out testosterone like crazy.

Let's look at Alfred's situation. He is a fitness model and wants to pack on some muscle. He eats right, rests well, and trains as hard as he can, but only packs on 0.125 lbs of muscle per week (NTVMG). This is nothing to be ashamed of as it is a good solid 5 lbs of muscle in a 20 week period. Alfred has a super high metabolism and when he isn't eating 4000+ calories a day, he gains absolutely no muscle at all or 0 lbs per week (BVMG). This explains why this 6'0" guy is only 170 lbs. Now let's assume that Alfred can gain a good 0.5 lb of muscle each week(TVMG) while using only 500mg of Test/week. Over the course of a 10 week cycle he can gain a full 10 lbs of LBM. Now let's look at our formula:
((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
0.5 - 0.125 > 0.125 - 0
or
0.375 > 0.125

Not only is 0.375 greater than 0.125, it is a full 3 times MORE. That means Alfred can gain 3 times more muscle in a given period using steroids compared to not using them. To me, that is a no brainer

Now looking at these two situations, we see that Brutus could gain something by using steroids, but not too much of an edge, only about 27% more than what he is already gaining. However Alfred can gain 300% more with the addition to steroids. This conflicts with much of the advice given on this forum when Alfred the 6' tall 170 lb guy comes in asking about what cycle he should do to put on some mass. You hear people say, "you can get to 215 lbs naturally no problem". Of course he can, but it will take over 90 weeks of training to reach that. Where with the addition of steroids, he could get there MUCH faster.

Now I would like to point out that the advice "you should wait until you get to weight X before starting a cycle" is almost always spot on, but NOT for the reason that they need to meet a 'genetic limit', but because these people typically are not bothering with their NTVMG. They aren't eating enough, training right, getting enough rest, or any combination of those. While, I still do not think that someone who wants results fast should wait until they do get to their NTVMG and reach that magic weight naturally, I only think that they need to get their diet, training, etc down and make it a habit before starting steroids. This may only be 2 months of training for the hardcore and fast learners. Some of the people out there don't learn too quick and it may take them 4 years, but I do not see the logic behind giving arbitrary numbers like the following:
Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.


DISCUSS

 

[immortalis]

jesus fuckin christ Cy...

nice post.

 

[cyrex]

jesus fuckin christ Cy...

nice post.

DUDE you didn't read it.. you posted less than 1 min after I posted this...

CHEATER

 

[itlnstln]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Why would someone want to wait until they reach their genetic limit to take steroids. Let's face it, we have a limited amount of time on this earth and the sooner we can get big and strong the more BB competitions, strongment competitions, powerlifting competitions, hot chicks to fuck, etc there will be.

Let's take a deeper look into what steroids do.
Steroids influence muscle growth. They are a catalyst for protein synthesis. If you train hard and eat just as hard, you will grow muscle at a much accelerated rate compared to not taking AAS. When a young man is 18 years old, he has a lot of extra testosterone running through his veins anyway so he is able to gain muscle at an accelerated rate compared to the rest of his life. Am I saying that he should take steroids to get bigger and stronger faster? Absolutely NOT.

Basic terminology:
LBM - Lean Body Mass
HGH - Human Growth Hormone
Steroids - Any questionable substances that serve as a catalyst of muscle growth (for the sake of simplicity, let us include things like HGH, Insulin, IGF-1, etc in this definition)
Adult - Anyone who's growth plates have fused and natural bone structure is no longer growing.
Let's make up some terminology here for the sake of discussion.
Base Velocity of Muscle Growth (BVMG):

This is the base amount of muscle growth that occurs naturally in the human body.

It may be calculated by the following formula:
BVMG = ([After LBM] - [Before LBM]) / ([Before] - [After])
Where:
After is a specific time when final measurements are taken
Before is a specific time when initial measurements are taken
​

Elapsed Time (ET):

This is any reasonable amount of time that measurements will be taken in. For the subject of this discussion, let's assume a 12 week period as this allows for the easiest measurements to produce accuracy. If we were to shorten this period to hours, we would need to take a biopsy of muscle tissue and study the protein synthesis occuring through a microscope. I'm not sure how many of us here want to measure our gains with a biopsy . . .​

Acceleration Due to Catalysts (ADC):

This is the 'boost' given by increasing natural factors for muscle growth. This does not 'necessarily' require steroids, but does require maximizing protein synthesis by any means possible. Rest, diet, hormone levels, HGH and other health levels will determine what is required to reach this.
For the following discussion we will assume that ADC requires maximizing to one's best ability ALL controlable factors.
The reason this assumption must be made is because the formula to obtain the actual ADC is the following:

ADC = ([TVMG] - [BVMG])/[ET]

This formula causes a problem when we look at the formula below for TVMG. It is cyclical. There are other, much more complicated formulas we could use, but they involve more confounds dealing with accurate measurements.
​

Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (TVMG):

This is the maximum amount of muscle and strength one can gain safely. This should take into account factors such as body weight increase and the extra load it puts on the heart in the period of time. There are issues such as tendon and ligament strength and how well the body is able to increase those factors along with the muscle growth. Obviously there is a maximum amount of food, training and rest that one can obtain, and lastly the body may have a physical limit to the amount of protein synthesis that can occur based on other internal factors.

TVMG can be calculated with the following formulas:
TVMG = [BVMG] + [ADC] * [ET]

A simple explanation to this is "The most muscle you can gain in a given time(TVMG) is determined by adding together your base natural muslce growth rate(BVMG) plus maximizing synthesis using catalysts(ADC) over the period of time in question(ET)"
​

Natural Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (NTVMG):

NTVMG is simply TVMG minus any use of steroids
NTVMG = [BVMG] + (([ADC] - Steroids) * [ET])
​

Back to the discussion.
Q. When is it logical to begin taking steroids?
A. When the pros outweight the cons
Yes this is the 'easy' answer, but how do we know when the pros outweigh the cons. First, there are legal and health issues. I will leave these OUT of this conversation and assume that legalities are not an issue and that you are a healthy male Adult. After these requirements are met, I would like to argue that the pros outweight the cons when (TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG). Translation: When taking steroids gives you faster gains compared to maximizing everything other than steroid use (diet, rest, training) as opposed to maximizing those things compared to what you would consider your BVMG.

Tossing out my terminology, simply when hardwork alone compared to your normal lifestyle gives less gains than steroids + hardwork compared to hardwork alone.

Again, let me reiterate this because I feel this is the most important point of my argument. Taking steroids is smartest when the use of them gives you more of an advantage than just training hard and eating right does. For example, if Brutus, an all star wrestler is gaining 1 lb of muscle per week by eating a great diet, training hard, and getting more than enough rest(NTVMG) and we assume that Brutus would only gain 1 lb of muscle per month or 0.23 lb of muscle per week if his diet was not on track(BVMG), but adding in his choice of steroid(s)(TVMG) he is able to gain 1.5 lb of muscle per week then using the formula I suggested ((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
1.5 - 1 > 1 - .23
or
.5 > .77
As any 5th grader will tell you, .5 is NOT greater than .77 so it would NOT be efficient for brutus to use steroids.

Of course not, Brutus is only 19 years old. He is done growing but those nuts of his are pumping out testosterone like crazy.

Let's look at Alfred's situation. He is a fitness model and wants to pack on some muscle. He eats right, rests well, and trains as hard as he can, but only packs on 0.125 lbs of muscle per week (NTVMG). This is nothing to be ashamed of as it is a good solid 5 lbs of muscle in a 20 week period. Alfred has a super high metabolism and when he isn't eating 4000+ calories a day, he gains absolutely no muscle at all or 0 lbs per week (BVMG). This explains why this 6'0" guy is only 170 lbs. Now let's assume that Alfred can gain a good 0.5 lb of muscle each week(TVMG) while using only 500mg of Test/week. Over the course of a 10 week cycle he can gain a full 10 lbs of LBM. Now let's look at our formula:
((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
0.5 - 0.125 > 0.125 - 0
or
0.375 > 0.125

Not only is 0.375 greater than 0.125, it is a full 3 times MORE. That means Alfred can gain 3 times more muscle in a given period using steroids compared to not using them. To me, that is a no brainer

Now looking at these two situations, we see that Brutus could gain something by using steroids, but not too much of an edge, only about 27% more than what he is already gaining. However Alfred can gain 300% more with the addition to steroids. This conflicts with much of the advice given on this forum when Alfred the 6' tall 170 lb guy comes in asking about what cycle he should do to put on some mass. You hear people say, "you can get to 215 lbs naturally no problem". Of course he can, but it will take over 90 weeks of training to reach that. Where with the addition of steroids, he could get there MUCH faster.

Now I would like to point out that the advice "you should wait until you get to weight X before starting a cycle" is almost always spot on, but NOT for the reason that they need to meet a 'genetic limit', but because these people typically are not bothering with their NTVMG. They aren't eating enough, training right, getting enough rest, or any combination of those. While, I still do not think that someone who wants results fast should wait until they do get to their NTVMG and reach that magic weight naturally, I only think that they need to get their diet, training, etc down and make it a habit before starting steroids. This may only be 2 months of training for the hardcore and fast learners. Some of the people out there don't learn too quick and it may take them 4 years, but I do not see the logic behind giving arbitrary numbers like the following:
Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.


DISCUSS

I seriously see where you are going with this, and I agree with your opinions also.
I just think it's "safe" to tell a newbie (hate that word) to wait until he's 25. But if the subject is 20, satisfied with his growth (height), has his diet dial in, and has reached the point where AAS would take him to the next lever - I say go for it.

Great Read Cy

 

[c3bodybuilding]

The problem is the Alfred types usually do think they are eating enough and training properly. When you tell them a bowl of cereal, a shake and a subway sandwich a day isn't going to cut it, they tell you how they couldn't possibly eat anything more. Then when you tell them their cable crossover, hammer strength routine is shit, they either are polite and pretend to listen but go back to the cable routine. Or they just flat out argue with you and tell you what a great routine it is and how his friend's cousin's cousin friend is bigger than you and does that routine.

Not all are like that. There are a few out there who really want to learn and do things right. But those types who do the research and learn the proper way to train, eat and cycle are rarely the ones you see posting here asking if they can drink winny or how to get brad pitt's fight club body before spring break.

As for the 'Brutus' guy, that pretty much sums up the training board. Those guys know their stuff. They eat until they can't eat anymore, train their heart out on compound lifts and rest. Most are bigger and in better shape than here on the anabolic board. They know they could do a little more with steroids, but why bother when they gain so well without.

 

[cyrex]

The problem is the Alfred types usually do think they are eating enough and training properly. When you tell them a bowl of cereal, a shake and a subway sandwich a day isn't going to cut it, they tell you how they couldn't possibly eat anything more. Then when you tell them their cable crossover, hammer strength routine is shit, they either are polite and pretend to listen but go back to the cable routine. Or they just flat out argue with you and tell you what a great routine it is and how his friend's cousin's cousin friend is bigger than you and does that routine.

Not all are like that. There are a few out there who really want to learn and do things right. But those types who do the research and learn the proper way to train, eat and cycle are rarely the ones you see posting here asking if they can drink winny or how to get brad pitt's fight club body before spring break.

As for the 'Brutus' guy, that pretty much sums up the training board. Those guys know their stuff. They eat until they can't eat anymore, train their heart out on compound lifts and rest. Most are bigger and in better shape than here on the anabolic board. They know they could do a little more with steroids, but why bother when they gain so well without.

I do agree, but there are some TRUE Alfreds out there.

I also think that Brutus gets to the point when he is older and producing less natural test that steroids will give him better than 50% gains.

 

[MASSIVEMONSTER]

thats awesome

 

[karachi183]

If you don't wait until a certain age then having to starting HRT early on is almost a given in alot of cases. 2-4 Months of harcore training is a joke. What i get from your post basically is your trying to promote rationalization in using AAS early on and without training experience which IMO is dangerous to all the young bucks who know nothing about the game and jump into it way too early thinking a few months in is enough experience to delve.... If my assumption is wrong then i take it back!!!!!!

 

[cyrex]

If you don't wait until a certain age then having to starting HRT early on is almost a given in alot of cases. 2-4 Months of harcore training is a joke. What i get from your post basically is your trying to promote rationalization in using AAS early on and without training experience which IMO is dangerous to all the young bucks who know nothing about the game and jump into it way too early thinking a few months in is enough experience to delve.... If my assumption is wrong then i take it back!!!!!!

absolutely not..
I am saying that you need to get to the NTVMG
and for most people I think that would take a few years.
2-4 months maybe for someone who has had years of experience in the past, but come back from an injury or other situation.

 

[karachi183]

absolutely not..
I am saying that you need to get to the NTVMG
and for most people I think that would take a few years.
2-4 months maybe for someone who has had years of experience in the past, but come back from an injury or other situation.

Point made...

 

[cyrex]

thanks for your input though karachi. I do encourage anyone who sees holes in my logic to speak up. I'll make any edits where necessary.

 

[swordfish151]

Why should one wait until they've reached their genetic potential


by Zen42


For some it’s about pride and paying dues. Many have shed sweat and blood, persevered through injury and personal sacrifice to build a physique few people will ever achieve. It’s disconcerting to see a newbie walk, take a few pills and then believe they are on the same level. Hard core lifting is more than just knowing and taking the right pharmacology.

For most of us it’s a genuine concern for the newbie. It takes more than gear to get exceptional results.

Before starting you should know your goals...are you looking to increase your strength, improve your looks, become famous, help your career, improve health, improve your self-esteem, get big, get approval or for protection (physical or mental)? The answer to that question determines the paths that are appropriate for you.

Every BODY is different. Do you know how your body acts and reacts? How many calories does it take for you to maintain? What food and feeding schedule can you tolerate? How much water do you need to drink? How much sleep do you need and how much good sleep can you get? What parts of your body respond to higher reps? What parts respond better to lower reps? How many sets give you the best results? What split works best? How many rest days do you need? What medical conditions do you have to adjust for? What exercises work for you and which ones don't? Do you know how to treat your injuries? Do you know how tell if you’re injuring yourself?

Then there are the things that only time and experience can give you: The skill of using dedication and determination to achieve long term goals. The knowledge that you can push yourself past limits, some you didn't even know you had. The experience and knowledge on how to use the equipment properly. The strength to adhere to STRICT form during your lifts. The strength to not give into ego and risk hurting yourself. The strength to adhere to a training program. The knowledge to know when its time to back off and the knowledge to know when to press on. The strength to acknowledge your weaknesses and the wisdom to adjust for them. The knowledge and respect of the dangers of impatience. Additionally, time in the gym gives your bones, tendons and ligaments a chance to strengthen in order to handle the loads additional muscle will require.

By taking the time to learn what your body requires to grow, learning your limitations and strengths, identifying your true goals and developing the skills in the weight room you give yourself the best chance to use steroids successfully.

If you don't do this prep work you put yourself at risk. By not knowing your body, it'll take you longer to realize you need to adjust your dosages. Failing to eat, drink and rest properly will limit your gains. A lack of dedication and determination will waste your effort. An ill prepared body is more prone to soft tissue damage. An ill-informed user is far more likely to use steroids that are wrong for the wanted goal. A person with a weak ego will put themselves at greater risk in and out of the weight room. An inexperienced lifter will be slower to recognize the positive and negative effects of their steroids and not know how to make the appropriate adjustments. An ill-informed lifter will waste a ton of money and possibly a portion of their health.

Steroids offer benefits and risks. Surprisingly little is truly known about how they really work, their interactions and their long-term effects. If a 'newbie' takes the time to develop their base and their knowledge they have a high chance of successfully using steroids to achieve their goals. If they take this time they will be able to take pride in knowing that it really was them that achieved their goals, not what was in the pill or in the syringe.

One thing is certain…you know less than you think you know. (That’s true for all of us.)

 

[the-short-one]

I do agree, but there are some TRUE Alfreds out there.

I also think that Brutus gets to the point when he is older and producing less natural test that steroids will give him better than 50% gains.

At what age do a man's test levels show a significant drop, and what would you consider "older"? Do you mean a man over 40, or just any guy who's in their late 20's and up?

 

[cyrex]

At what age do a man's test levels show a significant drop, and what would you consider "older"? Do you mean a man over 40, or just any guy who's in their late 20's and up?

no numbers

only way to check that is for an individual to get blood tests

 

[tiggerizme]

It took me like twenty minutes to get to the bottom of this thread. Damn... Nice point's of view though.

 

[cyrex]

This is a horrible title ... this isn't about reaching a genetic potential. It's about getting experienced and smart. Absolutely nothing in here adresses genetic potential....

Why should one wait until they've reached their genetic potential


by Zen42


For some it’s about pride and paying dues. Many have shed sweat and blood, persevered through injury and personal sacrifice to build a physique few people will ever achieve. It’s disconcerting to see a newbie walk, take a few pills and then believe they are on the same level. Hard core lifting is more than just knowing and taking the right pharmacology.

For most of us it’s a genuine concern for the newbie. It takes more than gear to get exceptional results.

Before starting you should know your goals...are you looking to increase your strength, improve your looks, become famous, help your career, improve health, improve your self-esteem, get big, get approval or for protection (physical or mental)? The answer to that question determines the paths that are appropriate for you.

Every BODY is different. Do you know how your body acts and reacts? How many calories does it take for you to maintain? What food and feeding schedule can you tolerate? How much water do you need to drink? How much sleep do you need and how much good sleep can you get? What parts of your body respond to higher reps? What parts respond better to lower reps? How many sets give you the best results? What split works best? How many rest days do you need? What medical conditions do you have to adjust for? What exercises work for you and which ones don't? Do you know how to treat your injuries? Do you know how tell if you’re injuring yourself?

Then there are the things that only time and experience can give you: The skill of using dedication and determination to achieve long term goals. The knowledge that you can push yourself past limits, some you didn't even know you had. The experience and knowledge on how to use the equipment properly. The strength to adhere to STRICT form during your lifts. The strength to not give into ego and risk hurting yourself. The strength to adhere to a training program. The knowledge to know when its time to back off and the knowledge to know when to press on. The strength to acknowledge your weaknesses and the wisdom to adjust for them. The knowledge and respect of the dangers of impatience. Additionally, time in the gym gives your bones, tendons and ligaments a chance to strengthen in order to handle the loads additional muscle will require.

By taking the time to learn what your body requires to grow, learning your limitations and strengths, identifying your true goals and developing the skills in the weight room you give yourself the best chance to use steroids successfully.

If you don't do this prep work you put yourself at risk. By not knowing your body, it'll take you longer to realize you need to adjust your dosages. Failing to eat, drink and rest properly will limit your gains. A lack of dedication and determination will waste your effort. An ill prepared body is more prone to soft tissue damage. An ill-informed user is far more likely to use steroids that are wrong for the wanted goal. A person with a weak ego will put themselves at greater risk in and out of the weight room. An inexperienced lifter will be slower to recognize the positive and negative effects of their steroids and not know how to make the appropriate adjustments. An ill-informed lifter will waste a ton of money and possibly a portion of their health.

Steroids offer benefits and risks. Surprisingly little is truly known about how they really work, their interactions and their long-term effects. If a 'newbie' takes the time to develop their base and their knowledge they have a high chance of successfully using steroids to achieve their goals. If they take this time they will be able to take pride in knowing that it really was them that achieved their goals, not what was in the pill or in the syringe.

One thing is certain…you know less than you think you know. (That’s true for all of us.)

 

[sweed]

i was satisfied when i did my first cycle at 22.... my avi was taken after my first cycel.. and i am still satisfied.. althought im still young and got oodles of time to grow more

 

[gstacker]

interesting views, i believe you should at least have a verry solid foundation before considering steroids, its jus sickining to hear when a guy wants bigger biceps and never did a squat in his life but wants to use gear. im 34yrs old and never used till i was 33, but thinking back to when i was in my prime all natural in my twenties i wonder what i would of been......hmmmmm

 

[Apexx]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Why would someone want to wait until they reach their genetic limit to take steroids. Let's face it, we have a limited amount of time on this earth and the sooner we can get big and strong the more BB competitions, strongment competitions, powerlifting competitions, hot chicks to fuck, etc there will be..............................................................................Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.
DISCUSS

Good post brah. If training, diet, knowledge of AAS and how to safely us them were not an issue, I would agree 100% with this.

 

[maldorf]

Ive seen many young guys start steroids before they have even a year of hard training naturally. These people usually end up only lifting consistently when they are on. They find the work:reward ratio way too low when they are natural and so their motivation lacks. They havent built up the experience of lifting naturally, and are not accustomed to the condition. When they go back 'on" again they hit the gym with more vigor, but as soon as its time to go off you dont see them in the gym again for months. Their physique never really advances much because they loose most of their gains when natural since they dont lift consistently. Eventually they stop bodybuilding altogether, years down the road.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Excellent thread Cy!

PM back at ya!

 

[LT3]

i agree, i started at 18 and i keep all my gains.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Genetic Limit can only be 100% accurately measured in retrospect, no? So waiting for your "genetic limit" to be reached means you're constantly waiting for what? An arbitrary time length period of no gaining? I think that's kind of silly.

And yes, you can fuck more hot girls, if you look better-sooner. Thats a given...

 

[LT3]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to anthony roberts again.

i agree. i think u just need a solid base. like i said i always found it odd that i never lost my gains, but it makes perfect sense. also i always recover fast.

 

[PolfaJelfa]

Good post bro i skimmed over it honestly.
Ill tell you i think its fair to say that people should wait till they know what they are doing and know what kind of gains they get naturally so that they appreciate the extra they get while on.

 

[mlong23]

Seemed like a good read, didn't read it all though.

It would be impossible to wait, because how could we really tell when our potential has been reached. By that time, age is upon us.

 

[karachi183]

Seemed like a good read, didn't read it all though.

It would be impossible to wait, because how could we really tell when our potential has been reached. By that time, age is upon us.

You know you've reached your limits when u stay either at the same weight or you don't move up in strentgh when you've been lifting hard and dieting etc..

 

[karachi183]

thanks for your input though karachi. I do encourage anyone who sees holes in my logic to speak up. I'll make any edits where necessary.

ur welcome k at ya for the post!

 

[dugie65]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Why would someone want to wait until they reach their genetic limit to take steroids. Let's face it, we have a limited amount of time on this earth and the sooner we can get big and strong the more BB competitions, strongment competitions, powerlifting competitions, hot chicks to fuck, etc there will be.

Let's take a deeper look into what steroids do.
Steroids influence muscle growth. They are a catalyst for protein synthesis. If you train hard and eat just as hard, you will grow muscle at a much accelerated rate compared to not taking AAS. When a young man is 18 years old, he has a lot of extra testosterone running through his veins anyway so he is able to gain muscle at an accelerated rate compared to the rest of his life. Am I saying that he should take steroids to get bigger and stronger faster? Absolutely NOT.

.....
.....

DISCUSS

Unfortunately, what you are doing is posting hypothetical situations, not testimony.

Tossing out my terminology, simply when hardwork alone compared to your normal lifestyle gives less gains than steroids + hardwork compared to hardwork alone.

I do not see how this point is relevant in any way whatsoever.

Of course steroids will give you an advantage in gaining muscle over ordinary workouts...



In my opinion, many people use steroids as a means to an end.
These 160 pound guys see these compounds as a miracle drug, something they will take and automatically gain 10-15lbs just by sticking themselves.

Are these undertrained athletes at their potential? Hell no. Do they take steroids anyway? Of course, i mean if they can gain 10-15 pounds and just eat a healthy diet and regimine while on, why not.


You might ask, "Well if my diet is on-track just while i'm on steroids then I will gain just as quickly and be just as safe, right?"

Wrong.

A healthy testosterone production at any age is usually attribulted to your diet and nutrition (Excluding those with deformalities of course.) That is why if you see a decrease in your gains due to a drop in testosterone, try a diet with increased food intake mainly consisting of high protein and non-processed foods. Maximize your natural test production through diet and workouts beforehand(hell, why not on your way to your natural potential?) and you will see a much healthier person afterwards.

Those unhealthy without the use of AAS will definately not get the full benifits from a spike in testosterone levels.

So ultimately the genetic potential does play a role in when you should take steroids. You cannot expect some who does not utilize what they have now to suddenly jump on the 'healthy train' and get the full benifits of a FOREIGN SUBSTANCE in the body.

I'm sorry if this seems like a flame, but most of the people I see/meet in this world on AAS are a discrace to the bodybuilding community. Remember, you fuck around with your hormones wrongly and you're stuck with it...

Good post BTW your terminoligy is definately new and interesting.

 

[karachi183]

Unfortunately, what you are doing is posting hypothetical situations, not testimony.




I do not see how this point is relevant in any way whatsoever.

Of course steroids will give you an advantage in gaining muscle over ordinary workouts...



In my opinion, many people use steroids as a means to an end.
These 160 pound guys see these compounds as a miracle drug, something they will take and automatically gain 10-15lbs just by sticking themselves.

Are these undertrained athletes at their potential? Hell no. Do they take steroids anyway? Of course, i mean if they can gain 10-15 pounds and just eat a healthy diet and regimine while on, why not.


You might ask, "Well if my diet is on-track just while i'm on steroids then I will gain just as quickly and be just as safe, right?"

Wrong.

A healthy testosterone production at any age is usually attribulted to your diet and nutrition (Excluding those with deformalities of course.) That is why if you see a decrease in your gains due to a drop in testosterone, try a diet with increased food intake mainly consisting of high protein and non-processed foods. Maximize your natural test production through diet and workouts beforehand(hell, why not on your way to your natural potential?) and you will see a much healthier person afterwards.

Those unhealthy without the use of AAS will definately not get the full benifits from a spike in testosterone levels.

So ultimately the genetic potential does play a role in when you should take steroids. You cannot expect some who does not utilize what they have now to suddenly jump on the 'healthy train' and get the full benifits of a FOREIGN SUBSTANCE in the body.

I'm sorry if this seems like a flame, but most of the people I see/meet in this world on AAS are a discrace to the bodybuilding community. Remember, you fuck around with your hormones wrongly and you're stuck with it...

Good post BTW your terminoligy is definately new and interesting.

K right at ya!

 

[cyrex]

interesting views, i believe you should at least have a verry solid foundation before considering steroids, its jus sickining to hear when a guy wants bigger biceps and never did a squat in his life but wants to use gear. im 34yrs old and never used till i was 33, but thinking back to when i was in my prime all natural in my twenties i wonder what i would of been......hmmmmm

absolutely!
I'm not saying that any 19 yr old newb should jump in after a year of going to the weight room 3x a week.

For example I took the plunge myself a few months ago. I'm 24 I weighed 258 lbs @ 6'4" 15-16% bf I've had some injuries in the past and 1 year ago I was up to 301 lbs with a lot of fat. I worked hard, dropped that fat got my diet back on track where it should be for regular maintenance and trained hard. I decided I wanted to grow some muscle faster and went on a cycle. I've gained around 40 lbs (muscle, fat, water, whatever) but my bodyfat is down 1-2%, my pants are fitting looser and my strength has increased by 40%+

Am I at my 'genetic limit' absolutely not. Could I have gotten these gains without injecting testosterone? Absolutely. It would have taken longer though.

I have a great solid background in training. I wrestled in high school, threw shot and discus and had access to the best high school gym in the state which I used 4-5 times a week. I continued that commitment to the gym while I was in college but destroyed my knee in an intramural football game. I gained 50-60 lbs over the course of the year that I was injured, had surgery and was in PT, but I got off my butt and got back in gear again.

I had a solid background in training, I have a solid understanding of proper nutrition and diet, and I understand all the aspects of what taking steroids involves and more specifically EXACTLY what could happen with the substances I decided to use well before I began.

 

[cyrex]

Good post brah. If training, diet, knowledge of AAS and how to safely us them were not an issue, I would agree 100% with this.

Exactly. That is a given. Training, diet, knowledge of the AAS, all are definite requirements as well as pure dedication.

 

[DieselGunz]

For me I just wanted to see what i could do with what god gave me. I always looked apon guys in my gym that used AAS and had no idea so they would blow up then loose it all. I took pride in the fact I was natty and just as big or as hard as all the other people. I knew in my heart i did this alone with no "help" and that was good enough for me.

Then I came on here and saw what a smart laid out cycle could do AND that with AAS i could look pretty damn good. I know I could not look like machine/mak/carth without AAS so i decide to do it.

But I waited until I was ready both mentally,physically and nutritionally before i started. I was happy with my first now on my second and things are going well, i have my goals and there is no rush I plan on being on the earth for a while longer

 

[cyrex]

Ive seen many young guys start steroids before they have even a year of hard training naturally. These people usually end up only lifting consistently when they are on. They find the work:reward ratio way too low when they are natural and so their motivation lacks. They havent built up the experience of lifting naturally, and are not accustomed to the condition. When they go back 'on" again they hit the gym with more vigor, but as soon as its time to go off you dont see them in the gym again for months. Their physique never really advances much because they loose most of their gains when natural since they dont lift consistently. Eventually they stop bodybuilding altogether, years down the road.

you describe 2 of my coworkers exactly. One is this guy and the other one is convinced he is gonna go on an EQ cycle to look good for his ex GF who is coming to visit in 8 weeks. They talk to me about it, but they do not fully know what I know about AAS or that I am currently using them. I am urging him to NOT bother with the EQ at all and just diet properly, but he absolutely will not listen. This guy played semi-pro soccer when he was in college, but now he has a bit of a belly and chubby face. I'd put him at about 22-25% bf at the moment. He does NOT workout in the gym ever. He did get a membership a year ago and went to play raquet ball about 5 or 6 times and he plays coed sports throughout the year but that is the extent of his exercise. I don't know if this guy even knows how to build a basic workout routine and he is convinced a cycle of EQ will do him good.

If he hadn't paid so much for the EQ he got 4 months ago (he paid at least 5x) I'd see if he would sell it to me for his cost and have him use that $$ to go out and buy the foods he needs to get his diet in check. But there is absolutely no way I'd pay that much for some EQ lol. I know he doesn't have any sort of PCT planned even though I told him to not consider a cycle without it.

 

[cyrex]

Genetic Limit can only be 100% accurately measured in retrospect, no? So waiting for your "genetic limit" to be reached means you're constantly waiting for what? An arbitrary time length period of no gaining? I think that's kind of silly.

And yes, you can fuck more hot girls, if you look better-sooner. Thats a given...

hehe.. exactly, but even the imaginary 'genetic limit' that happens when a 5'8" guy gets to when he is 26 years old and 220 lbs (as commonly mentioned in various threads on this and many other boards)

Although I'm not saying that we shouldn't be telling people to get up to 200 lbs, I'm saying our reasons are WRONG. We should say get up to 200 lbs naturally as a generic way to gain the experience and knowledge they do not have yet. But yet there are those guys out there at 5'8" 150 lbs that have a good 3-4 years of smart training under their belt, have been on a proper bulking diet a few times and eating properly the rest of the time for maintenance, but have only been back in the gym for 3 or 4 months because of personal problems, working too much, medical problems, etc that I think are great candidates for steroids if they so choose to get where they want to be faster.

 

[cyrex]

Good post bro i skimmed over it honestly.
Ill tell you i think its fair to say that people should wait till they know what they are doing and know what kind of gains they get naturally so that they appreciate the extra they get while on.

Great point to touch on! I hadn't though of that one. The whole appreciation aspect. I fully agree with a requirement that they need to know what they are doing, I'd like to address the appreciation aspect with an analogy:

Erica gives worst blowjobs
Jenny gives the best blowjobs

PJ should get blowjobs from Erica for a year before ever getting one from Jenny so that he can appreciate how good Jenny's blowjobs are.

LOL it was the best I could come up with. Now assume that PJ got some mediocre blowjobs for years from Adrienne, I think he should just go ahead and skip Erica and go for Jenny right away . . . lol

 

[cyrex]

You know you've reached your limits when u stay either at the same weight or you don't move up in strentgh when you've been lifting hard and dieting etc..

I can almost promise you that anyone at this point who is not a professional natty bodybuilder can do SOMETHING to get gains happening again.

 

[letsrun4it]

I think the main reason is many guys on here want to achieve a look that is absolutely possible naturally. Yesterday someone posted a pic of a guy and asked if it was possible naturally and he was 185 pounds!

 

[cyrex]

Unfortunately, what you are doing is posting hypothetical situations, not testimony.




I do not see how this point is relevant in any way whatsoever.

Of course steroids will give you an advantage in gaining muscle over ordinary workouts...

You need to read more carefully you are comparing steroid use directly to ordinary workouts... that is not what I said.
I said when the GAINS of steroid use COMPARED TO HARDWORK (proper diet, training, etc) is GREATER than the hardwork compared to normal lifestyle.

comparing the difference, not comparing using steroids to not using steroids.

Your interpretation of my formula is completely wrong:

Mine
X - Y > Y - Z
Yours
X > Z

Also, please reread the post.. I'm not talking about Jim who weighs 160 lbs and eats like shit but when he does a cycle his diet is on track, or even Greg who does a cycle and still eats like shit..

i'm talking about someone who knows how to diet and DOES IT already, knows how to train and DOES IT already. That guy. And he may NOT have been doing this for the last 3 years consecutively, but does have the knowledge and determination to do it and continue to do it.

 

[cyrex]

I think the main reason is many guys on here want to achieve a look that is absolutely possible naturally. Yesterday someone posted a pic of a guy and asked if it was possible naturally and he was 185 pounds!

huh?...

 

[silver_shadow]

The problem is the Alfred types usually do think they are eating enough and training properly. When you tell them a bowl of cereal, a shake and a subway sandwich a day isn't going to cut it, they tell you how they couldn't possibly eat anything more. Then when you tell them their cable crossover, hammer strength routine is shit, they either are polite and pretend to listen but go back to the cable routine. Or they just flat out argue with you and tell you what a great routine it is and how his friend's cousin's cousin friend is bigger than you and does that routine.

Not all are like that. There are a few out there who really want to learn and do things right. But those types who do the research and learn the proper way to train, eat and cycle are rarely the ones you see posting here asking if they can drink winny or how to get brad pitt's fight club body before spring break.

As for the 'Brutus' guy, that pretty much sums up the training board. Those guys know their stuff. They eat until they can't eat anymore, train their heart out on compound lifts and rest. Most are bigger and in better shape than here on the anabolic board. They know they could do a little more with steroids, but why bother when they gain so well without.

I do agree, but there are some TRUE Alfreds out there.

I also think that Brutus gets to the point when he is older and producing less natural test that steroids will give him better than 50% gains.

he-he, who says brutus doesn't use AAS. just that he uses it less than alfred (considering a body weight to gms of AAS ratio)

At what age do a man's test levels show a significant drop, and what would you consider "older"? Do you mean a man over 40, or just any guy who's in their late 20's and up?

i read a post some weeks ago. some guy had (late 20s or just about 30) got his testosterone level checked. it seems the doc told him that many guys over 25 have such low testosterone that they'd be HRT candidates. this is a bit surprising, but if i'm not mistaken, factors like stress (job/bills and such things) & pollution (just off the top of my head) can result in significant reduction in endogeneous test production.

 

[cyrex]

he-he, who says brutus doesn't use AAS. just that he uses it less than alfred (considering a body weight to gms of AAS ratio)

Brutus doesn't use AAS.. I SAY lol I made the dude up..

 

[immortalis]

DUDE you didn't read it.. you posted less than 1 min after I posted this...

CHEATER

I can speed-read, yo!



Im even more dangerous when words scroll, and I dont have to turn pages! MWAHAHAhahahaha

 

[steelmass]

Now I would like to point out that the advice "you should wait until you get to weight X before starting a cycle" is almost always spot on, but NOT for the reason that they need to meet a 'genetic limit', but because these people typically are not bothering with their NTVMG. They aren't eating enough, training right, getting enough rest, or any combination of those. While, I still do not think that someone who wants results fast should wait until they do get to their NTVMG and reach that magic weight naturally, I only think that they need to get their diet, training, etc down and make it a habit before starting steroids. This may only be 2 months of training for the hardcore and fast learners. Some of the people out there don't learn too quick and it may take them 4 years, but I do not see the logic behind giving arbitrary numbers like the following:
Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.

I agree. I think one can start the second they get their NTVMG correct, which takes time.

 

[njmuscleguy]

For me I just wanted to see what i could do with what god gave me. I always looked apon guys in my gym that used AAS and had no idea so they would blow up then loose it all. I took pride in the fact I was natty and just as big or as hard as all the other people. I knew in my heart i did this alone with no "help" and that was good enough for me.

Then I came on here and saw what a smart laid out cycle could do AND that with AAS i could look pretty damn good. I know I could not look like machine/mak/carth without AAS so i decide to do it.

But I waited until I was ready both mentally,physically and nutritionally before i started. I was happy with my first now on my second and things are going well, i have my goals and there is no rush I plan on being on the earth for a while longer

You and I sound like twins - that's exactly what I would've said. For years, before starting my first cycle (I was 29!), it was awesome hearing people ask me "You're juicing right?" And I would just smile and say "Nope!" It was a great sense of accomplishment even though I knew most people didn't believe me! And I would laugh thinking: "Ok, I'm really not that big and these guys think I'm on something.... imagine if I actually WERE juicing?"

It just goes to show that people don't train long or hard enough naturally because they feel the only way they're going to get any sort of body is by juicing. And these may well also be the same people that feel they've hit their "limit" (they haven't!) and jump on board too quickly. I have to admit, I've gained more muscle and weight now, being "off", than during any of my 2 previous cycles... (but that's a story for another time!).

 

[Pro80]

Very good post cyrex...i understand what your trying to say...i totally agree.

 

[cyrex]

You and I sound like twins - that's exactly what I would've said. For years, before starting my first cycle (I was 29!), it was awesome hearing people ask me "You're juicing right?" And I would just smile and say "Nope!" It was a great sense of accomplishment even though I knew most people didn't believe me! And I would laugh thinking: "Ok, I'm really not that big and these guys think I'm on something.... imagine if I actually WERE juicing?"

It just goes to show that people don't train long or hard enough naturally because they feel the only way they're going to get any sort of body is by juicing. And these may well also be the same people that feel they've hit their "limit" (they haven't!) and jump on board too quickly. I have to admit, I've gained more muscle and weight now, being "off", than during any of my 2 previous cycles... (but that's a story for another time!).

I absolutely agree with both of you guys on this if you are one of those people (and there are tons out there) that are doing this for the accomplishment factor. "Look what I have done with my hardwork!"
Unfortunately when I know I can get something done faster and I'm not giving up much to get it faster, I'm willing to go the easy route within reason ;-)

But I have much more respect for you two guys than I would for someone like myself.

 

[dugie65]

You need to read more carefully you are comparing steroid use directly to ordinary workouts... that is not what I said.
I said when the GAINS of steroid use COMPARED TO HARDWORK (proper diet, training, etc) is GREATER than the hardwork compared to normal lifestyle.

comparing the difference, not comparing using steroids to not using steroids.

Your interpretation of my formula is completely wrong:

Mine
X - Y > Y - Z
Yours
X > Z

Also, please reread the post.. I'm not talking about Jim who weighs 160 lbs and eats like shit but when he does a cycle his diet is on track, or even Greg who does a cycle and still eats like shit..

i'm talking about someone who knows how to diet and DOES IT already, knows how to train and DOES IT already. That guy. And he may NOT have been doing this for the last 3 years consecutively, but does have the knowledge and determination to do it and continue to do it.

so how long is enough?
6mo, 1yr, 18 mo. of training?

c'mon man, steroids are the most hardcore thing out there - not something to be used as supplementation.

Just because you can get there quicker doesnt mean it's safe. IMO all users should wait until they are at least approaching their genetic potential.

 

[cyrex]

dugie65 you are completely missing my point
I'm saying there is no amount of time to use for people

it all depends on the person and whether or not using steroids will be the most efficient for them.

For many people it might take years of hard training and dieting and dedication, for others less.. it depends

 

[dugie65]

dugie65 you are completely missing my point
I'm saying there is no amount of time to use for people

i'm not 'missing the point'..

just trying to play devil's advocate.

 

[cyrex]

i'm not 'missing the point'..

just trying to play devil's advocate.

well keep it up, but bring up some valid stuff LOL
i like devil's advocate.. I can switch gears and do it too if ya'll want
I love to argue my own points

 

[Tweakle]

If Arnie can go on at 15 then why not Little Johnny who wants to fuck bitches in cancun or little Timmy who wants get all jacked so he can knock a nigga out and shit, yo.

Bottom line, most people using juice are fucking choads and shouldn't be using anything stronger than creatine but in an ideal world I would agree with you.. if someone knew all about their bodies response to training and diet before they popped then they could juice to get to their 'limit' and then come off and maintain that limit naturally, especially if they were young and weren't seriously shut down the way some older guy are post cycle.

if they'd been training a year or 10 it wouldn't matter. But in the real world those people do not exisit, hence the 3-5 years hard training rule before even touching juice/

 

[cyrex]

If Arnie can go on at 15 then why not Little Johnny who wants to fuck bitches in cancun or little Timmy who wants get all jacked so he can knock a nigga out and shit, yo.

Bottom line, most people using juice are fucking choads and shouldn't be using anything stronger than creatine but in an ideal world I would agree with you.. if someone knew all about their bodies response to training and diet before they popped then they could juice to get to their 'limit' and then come off and maintain that limit naturally, especially if they were young and weren't seriously shut down the way some older guy are post cycle.

if they'd been training a year or 10 it wouldn't matter. But in the real world those people do not exisit, hence the 3-5 years hard training rule before even touching juice/

i have basically supported everything you've just said in all my posts/replies on this thread

 

[cityhick]

Good post. Im a young buck but I will be starting soon.

 

[cyrex]

Good post. Im a young buck but I will be starting soon.

BTW this post was not to say ppl should start sooner, it was more that they should WAIT but for a different more logical reason other than some arbitrary numbers

if you fall into that specific reason than GO FOR IT

 

[cityhick]

You should no me better by now. And I will go for it

 

[dugie65]

If Arnie can go on at 15 then why not Little Johnny who wants to fuck bitches in cancun or little Timmy who wants get all jacked so he can knock a nigga out and shit, yo.

Bottom line, most people using juice are fucking choads and shouldn't be using anything stronger than creatine but in an ideal world I would agree with you.. if someone knew all about their bodies response to training and diet before they popped then they could juice to get to their 'limit' and then come off and maintain that limit naturally, especially if they were young and weren't seriously shut down the way some older guy are post cycle.

if they'd been training a year or 10 it wouldn't matter. But in the real world those people do not exisit, hence the 3-5 years hard training rule before even touching juice/

only prob is at that age you can completely destroy your natural test production making it almost impossible to maintain what SHOULD have been your potential.

i agree with you completely about the douches out there just wanting the quick route to getting big. Most of them don't even get there, but what the hell, i give up, let them kill their bodies they're stuck with for the rest of their lives.

but hey i'm stuck with mine so i think i'll take care of it.

 

[dugie65]

BTW this post was not to say ppl should start sooner, it was more that they should WAIT but for a different more logical reason other than some arbitrary numbers

if you fall into that specific reason than GO FOR IT

right right.. i'm very far under 20 but have trained competitively for 3-4 years now. I'm at 191@ 5'8 11%BF but nowhere near the height I want to be... the only thing holding me back. Luckily i'm nowhere near my genetic potential.

 

[cyrex]

I think my next post will be about how an efficient bulking cycle should include a % or 2 increase in fat % we'll see how my though process, and further research goes

 

[maccer]

good thread, been a few recently k

 

[maccer]

I got to admit i regret doing my cycle in some ways - mainly because after I had finished i lost motivation for training!!! I had to take a few months off!!! I want to cycle again but just worry that after i finish i will lose motivation for the gym!!

 

[cyrex]

You should no me better by now. And I will go for it

I do .. i do just general disclaimer i have to make hehe

 

[cyrex]

right right.. i'm very far under 20 but have trained competitively for 3-4 years now. I'm at 191@ 5'8 11%BF but nowhere near the height I want to be... the only thing holding me back. Luckily i'm nowhere near my genetic potential.

well if you are under 20 you may be growing still in which case taking steroids should not even be an option.
if you have't grown any taller for the last 3 years, then maybe you could consider it

 

[cyrex]

^^^

 

[dugie65]

well if you are under 20 you may be growing still in which case taking steroids should not even be an option.
if you have't grown any taller for the last 3 years, then maybe you could consider it

nah i keep thinking i'll get taller. Prob won't happen but it's the only thing holding me back.

 

[cyrex]

growth hormone might help that . . .

not sure though

 

[steelmass]

Anavar wouldn't stunt growth and actually can cause height increases.

 

[cyrex]

Anavar wouldn't stunt growth and actually can cause height increases.

Anavar is the one where the sides are low, however the main argument on why to not do anavar only is that it is far too expensive when it comes to dosage : $$ compared to injectables and comparing the synergistic properties of injectables + anavar compared to taking each compound alone make anavar stacked with something like Test a much better choice

 

[*Bunny*]

Sorry for the bump guys ... I wanted to read this.

Nice post Cy

 

[dugie65]

Anavar is the one where the sides are low, however the main argument on why to not do anavar only is that it is far too expensive when it comes to dosage : $$ compared to injectables and comparing the synergistic properties of injectables + anavar compared to taking each compound alone make anavar stacked with something like Test a much better choice

is there anything compared to anavar in injectable form (a non aromatizing inj) ?

 

[mrp3652]

is there anything compared to anavar in injectable form (a non aromatizing inj) ?

Primobolan, winny, and trenbolone all are injectables that don't aromatize and Equipoise only slightly aromatizes for most users. Primo would be the closest compared to var.

 

[cyrex]

Sorry for the bump guys ... I wanted to read this.

Nice post Cy

thanks

I'd say there is more discussion that could come of it if someone else wanted to post their opinions or dispute any of my logic

 

[cyrex]

Primobolan, winny, and trenbolone all are injectables that don't aromatize and Equipoise only slightly aromatizes for most users. Primo would be the closest compared to var.

Yep.. However I assume that you are wanting non-aromatizing compounds because you want to avoid sides. if that is the case, Tren would NOT be a good choice since it binds very strongly to androgen receptors and is highly androgenic (and anabolic).

 

[dugie65]

Yep.. However I assume that you are wanting non-aromatizing compounds because you want to avoid sides. if that is the case, Tren would NOT be a good choice since it binds very strongly to androgen receptors and is highly androgenic (and anabolic).

no not avoiding side effects besides estrogen buildup(the reason for your growth stopping).

 

[cyrex]

figured this needed a bump.

 

[cyrex]

bada BUMP!
....
any more opinions??

 

[sweed]

ya... i wish i started sooner, lol

 

[SgtSlaughter]

bump...

I think my next post will be about how an efficient bulking cycle should include a % or 2 increase in fat % we'll see how my though process, and further research goes

Since you're back in "town" (EF town)... do you have anything written up on the efficient bulking cycle?

 

[solidspine]

You don’t want to limit your growth in terms of height, 18 years old your bone plates (episis) are not sealed, and you could still grow.

You have plenty of time to add muscle, reach your genetic limit first, and then consider gear.

I did my first cycle when I was 47 years old.

 

[needtogetaas]

what about people who do take aas before there genetic potential,but then want to return to not using.how screwed are they.what if after a few cycles they still are not even in good shape.say some one that fucked up.cuz they are out there.can they still get in good shape with out aas later on in life.lots of young kids in life have prob fucked up at a young age and now kick them self in the ass for it but is there still hope for them to grow with out aas.

 

[cyrex]

I figured I might bring this post back to life one last time to see if there is any additional discussion on this.

 

[forget_genetics]

Good post. I agree with what your saying. As long as you know how to work out and actually understand how much you do need to eat and not just say im eating stacks when your not. As long as your building muscle without aas and can keep up the routine of working out I dont see a problem starting before you reach your genetic limit. (as long as your not underage). I can honestly say almost everyone on here probably never waited till they reached their limit before they jumped on the juice. I never was and started on just dianabol 50mg a day (high dose I know) for 4 weeks and gained 10lbs. It just speeds things up. Some experienced lifters dont like people doing that cause they spent years in the gym gaining all this muscle and getting lean when this so called newbie comes along and with a strict diet and training regeme their just as big as they are in less than half the time.
Just my two cents.

 

[-SD-]

Im almost 35 I aint waiting

 

[jumpmaster82]

This is a good post and a great topic that isn't talked about near enough.

 

[Vancouver]

This is a fantastic thread!!!

I'm one of those guys who's researching their fist cycle, I'm also one of those guys who's nowhere near their genetic limit. The guys who are currently using to get past their genetic limit would argue that I shouldn't even consider using. My argument would be that my limit is not genetic, but lifestyle and circumstance, my genetics weren't great to begin with (but not terrible). Performance enhancers will get me past my barriers to success, but for different reasons than the guy trying to max out. Just like the 155 lbs MMA contender has a different reason for using...

My background. I'm 36, currently 5'8" 175 lbs and 18-20% BF. I've trained weights off and on since I was 16. I was extremely athletic until age 20 and remained moderately athletic until age 34. I was in the best shape of my life at age 29, 165 lbs and 8% BF, so I carried around 15 lbs more lean muscle than the average guy my hight. I had to work my ass off with good nutrition and supplements to achieve this. I'm a very experienced lifter. Fast forward 7 years; I have 4 kids, 2 businesses and work around 60-70 hrs/week, one day you wake up, walk onto your office, look at the pile of paperwork and emails in you in-box and wonder how this happened. I have not seriously lifted in 4 years and in the past 3 years I've gained at least 20 lbs of fat and lost 10 lbs of muscle. I would not trade my kids and business success for the body I once had, but I'd like it back (it literally took 10 years to get it). This will never happen without some help and trust me I'm not looking for an easy fix, I'm being realistic. My hormones were at their best when I was 29, my current business drive and stress as a result of it, does not improve my hormone profile. I'm not looking at doing major high dose stacks, just enough low dose non aromatizing agent that will equal the playing field with the 20 somethings. Honestly I'm not interested in waiting another 5 years to get the results I want. I will of course train hard for 3-4 moths before starting.

So I'm looking at doing 2 cycles over 12-15 months, low-moderate dose Primo (200-400mg/week) or Anavar(30-40mg/day). If I can add 10-15 lbs of lean muscle and lose 10 lbs of fat at the same time, I will be extremely pleased.

I do have a few questions though. I keep hearing that your first cycle should alway be test only; apart from cost, why would I not stick with the above mentioned options. I have read that i should replace my natural test during the cycle and this makes sense, so I was thinking of addding 50-100mg of test. I just have not read a real good reason to start with test only (for my particular goals).

I've read posts that state once you start, you can't go back...Why? Why can I not do a few low dose cycles to knock a few years off my training and go back to training natural like it never happened. I haven't read anything about dependency, once your natural hormone levels return. Is this just a figure of speech directed at those young kids that want to juice up and gain 20 lbs in 8-12 weeks...

Thanks for you comments and any advice

 

[soupeater]

bump and so as not to create more threads...

for all of us who are like 'vancouver' above and just looking to knock a few years off our training, or gradually add 10 pounds of lean mass to our frames, get a great beach body, whatever... but who have not reached our genetic potential yet - what conservative cycles would you reccomend and why? obviously there are different goals for different users so hopefully we can address the goals of the above mentioned group. also, since we have not reached our genetic potential would it be more realistic for the gains made on cycle to remain (of course talking of lean quality gains, not bulking cycle mass gains) than for the user who has pushed past his genetic potential (all other things being the same)? interesting thought..

 

[stevesmi]

bump and so as not to create more threads...

for all of us who are like 'vancouver' above and just looking to knock a few years off our training, or gradually add 10 pounds of lean mass to our frames, get a great beach body, whatever... but who have not reached our genetic potential yet - what conservative cycles would you reccomend and why? obviously there are different goals for different users so hopefully we can address the goals of the above mentioned group. also, since we have not reached our genetic potential would it be more realistic for the gains made on cycle to remain (of course talking of lean quality gains, not bulking cycle mass gains) than for the user who has pushed past his genetic potential (all other things being the same)? interesting thought..

a conservative cycle can be achieved different ways but here is my 2 cents

1. a short cycle. like <10 weeks
2. a low side roid like deca or anavar
3. test, but not a ton of it
4. a solid PCT and time off to recover
5. supps to use on and to bridge until your next cycle

also in regards to the thread, unless you want to be posting "i only gained 1 pound on my cycle whats wrong?" or "I cant get stronger after 5 weeks, when should this kick in?" then you should wait until your diet and training is as sharp as a needle. this way you wont blow a G and waste your time.

 

[needtogetaas]

a conservative cycle can be achieved different ways but here is my 2 cents

1. a short cycle. like <10 weeks
2. a low side roid like deca or anavar
3. test, but not a ton of it
4. a solid PCT and time off to recover
5. supps to use on and to bridge until your next cycle

also in regards to the thread, unless you want to be posting "i only gained 1 pound on my cycle whats wrong?" or "I cant get stronger after 5 weeks, when should this kick in?" then you should wait until your diet and training is as sharp as a needle. this way you wont blow a G and waste your time.

deca is not so low side for some. But good info non the less my friend.

 

[soupeater]

thanks steve

 

[cyrex]

man this was a long time ago.

 

[strongectogenes]

great post. thanks for spending the time to write that all down and share that with us

 

[ChickDiesel@MGN]

Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.


DISCUSS

^Enough said right there! All the above is great detailed information for an elite athlete or someone more educated on where they want to go physically in this sport. But, for the beginner/novice...the last part is really the most important rule!

 

[-SD-]

What if Im 37 and dont have time to fuck around but really know how to train and diet

 

[MattJS]

I began AAS use last year after just 2 years training, during those 2 years I went from 150lbs 8% (my avatar pic) to 170lbs 8%, I dieted extremely hard (virtually no supplements) each and every day, during those two years I missed a total of two workouts, in the beginning I got a group of friends involved we worked out together but within a few weeks they began missing workouts, constantly slacked on their diets, continued partying pretty hard and eventually gave up within six months... I battled on alone and right now I'm on my second cycle, I'm 196lbs @15%... I feel that starting cycling 'early' has helped to make up for starting weights later in life than ideal (26) and I feel that my goal of 200lbs 8% would be very hard for me to attain naturally from that starting point, while I understand other peoples frustrations with people starting 'early' (I have friends who use AAS and do not even train or diet at all) I think the formula makes sense and a persons dedication/commitment should def be considered, if a person is an adult, has proved themselves for a couple of years natty and desires a more extreme result than can be attained through continuing that way then provided they do adequate research and are smart about it why not....

 

[-SD-]

I began AAS use last year after just 2 years training, during those 2 years I went from 150lbs 8% (my avatar pic) to 170lbs 8%, I dieted extremely hard (virtually no supplements) each and every day, during those two years I missed a total of two workouts, in the beginning I got a group of friends involved we worked out together but within a few weeks they began missing workouts, constantly slacked on their diets, continued partying pretty hard and eventually gave up within six months... I battled on alone and right now I'm on my second cycle, I'm 196lbs @15%... I feel that starting cycling 'early' has helped to make up for starting weights later in life than ideal (26) and I feel that my goal of 200lbs 8% would be very hard for me to attain naturally from that starting point, while I understand other peoples frustrations with people starting 'early' (I have friends who use AAS and do not even train or diet at all) I think the formula makes sense and a persons dedication/commitment should def be considered, if a person is an adult, has proved themselves for a couple of years natty and desires a more extreme result than can be attained through continuing that way then provided they do adequate research and are smart about it why not....

What results are your friends getting that use roids without training or diet?

 

[RickRock13]

I don't think anyone needs to wait until they reach their genetic potential before starting AAS, but I do think there are conditions that should grade before you start...

1) Age....I know its accepted on this forum to not start until at least 21, but I think that is still way too early. I think people should wait until at least their later 20s if not early 30s before starting. I didn't start until 35, and I'm glad I waited.
2) body composition: You need to have a great base at least before you start. That means you have built a solid foundation of muscle that is respectable, and also have your bodyfat at a reasonable level in the lower to mid teens.

3) Diet: Your diet needs to be in check. You need to be able to eat for the gains that you seek. If you can't do that, then cycling is not for you.

3) Training: Your training needs to compliment your goals before starting AAS. You need to lift big to get big...etc..and know how to properly do this to build muscle and allow the proper time to recover.

4) cycle knowledge: You need to know enough to prepare your self for everything on cycle that can hapien including dosing, side effects, supports, PCT, and health.

5) HAVE EVERYTHING ON HAND BEFORE STARTING!!! This means all ancillaries, supports, AIs, PCT...etc

6) No health issues: If you are injured or have any health condition that could be effected by cycling DONT START!!

 

[Mh48500]

I don't think anyone needs to wait until they reach their genetic potential before starting AAS, but I do think there are conditions that should grade before you start...

1) Age....I know its accepted on this forum to not start until at least 21, but I think that is still way too early. I think people should wait until at least their later 20s if not early 30s before starting. I didn't start until 35, and I'm glad I waited.
2) body composition: You need to have a great base at least before you start. That means you have built a solid foundation of muscle that is respectable, and also have your bodyfat at a reasonable level in the lower to mid teens.

3) Diet: Your diet needs to be in check. You need to be able to eat for the gains that you seek. If you can't do that, then cycling is not for you.

3) Training: Your training needs to compliment your goals before starting AAS. You need to lift big to get big...etc..and know how to properly do this to build muscle and allow the proper time to recover.

4) cycle knowledge: You need to know enough to prepare your self for everything on cycle that can hapien including dosing, side effects, supports, PCT, and health.

5) HAVE EVERYTHING ON HAND BEFORE STARTING!!! This means all ancillaries, supports, AIs, PCT...etc

6) No health issues: If you are injured or have any health condition that could be effected by cycling DONT START!!

Really good advice, especially an easily overlooked one like having everything on hand before starting. I remember starting an early cycle with not enough gear because I had some coming...never showed up, cycle interrupted and a waste of time and money.