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Guinness5.0
New member
This things a hundred bucks (that's like 4 Euros rightanotherbutters said:
):http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1220
just thought you might like to know....
Repair and prepare - my journal on the road back to 5x5
- Thread starter anotherbutters
- Start date
):http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/prodinfo.asp?number=1220
just thought you might like to know....
blut wump
New member
Can you do hack squats? Some people call them behind the legs deadlifts. There's the device G5.0 indicated too.
Hypers/Reverse Hypers: for now I'd just do them for volume and, maybe, speed. Go for total reps in sets of, say, 10 or 15. With the hypers, I usually go a shade above parallel but not crazy past since that's bad.
I started taking the CEE tablets on Wednesday night. My workout today felt affected by the stuff. I'm taking 3g per day.
If moral support could heal you'd be cured already. Good luck with your back. Believe me, I know the grief.
Hypers/Reverse Hypers: for now I'd just do them for volume and, maybe, speed. Go for total reps in sets of, say, 10 or 15. With the hypers, I usually go a shade above parallel but not crazy past since that's bad.
I started taking the CEE tablets on Wednesday night. My workout today felt affected by the stuff. I'm taking 3g per day.
If moral support could heal you'd be cured already. Good luck with your back. Believe me, I know the grief.
anotherbutters
New member
Fricken A! I knew such a thing existed. Thanks a lot G5.0!
After wiping the CEE off my credit card, I've ordered one. I guess I might have it in a week or so, via airmail. Woohoo!
BW: I thought about hack squats, but I really want to start working my legs hard (that sounds horribly isolation-like) and didn't like the idea of including my back in the chain. Thanks for the reverse/hyper info. I find them really easy, as though I could knock out 20 reps without thinking about it. I might start out with 3x8 and take it from there. You're right about the moral support
EDIT: Ah, I thought you said total 10-15 reps. I see, sets of 10-15 reps. That sounds more like it.
After wiping the CEE off my credit card, I've ordered one. I guess I might have it in a week or so, via airmail. Woohoo!
BW: I thought about hack squats, but I really want to start working my legs hard (that sounds horribly isolation-like) and didn't like the idea of including my back in the chain. Thanks for the reverse/hyper info. I find them really easy, as though I could knock out 20 reps without thinking about it. I might start out with 3x8 and take it from there. You're right about the moral support
EDIT: Ah, I thought you said total 10-15 reps. I see, sets of 10-15 reps. That sounds more like it.
Last edited:
Guinness5.0
New member
Insert obligatory "metal pole b/t your legs" joke here.
A
Anthrax Invasion
Guest
Avoid OHPing. Compressive loading of the spine isn't what you're looking for, and doing those (especially heavy) will do just the opposite of what you want.
I have three bulging discs, as you probably know. That said, I think I have some pretty solid input to give regarding the back and how to go about healing it by now.
First, focus on local muscular endurance. Core/trunk/back/ab (whatever the fuck you wanna call it all) should be done daily. I wouldn't do it within the first two or three hours of waking, for reasons I don't feel like going in to.
Anyway, do planks, side bridges, and birddogs. If you need descriptions, just ask and I'll post 'em up, but I'd bet you can find them online as well. Anyway, you do these movements semi-statically. By this I mean, you get in the plank position and hold for 7-8 seconds maximum. After 7-8 seconds, let your core relax and rest on your knees for a brief moment. After a second of that, go back into the plank and hold for 7-8 seconds. Each hold of 7-8 seconds is a rep. Do these for a single set once (or twice, but see if once works for you, no reason to go twice if you don't need it) a day, probably 8-10 repetitions. You should be pretty fried by then. The same goes for side bridges and birddogs. Longer than 7-8 seconds has been shown to be no less beneficial, and the short break allows the exercise to work better (again, not going into it here).
Once you've built up to a satisfactory level of endurance, you can try planks on the swiss ball (much more difficult), side bridges with various progressions (get there then ask, I'll describe 'em), and birddogs with light ankle/wrist weights. As you progress to the higher levels, you'll be building more strength while maintaining your endurance. Eventually, you'll continue with the core work and slowly work back into the main lifts (squats, deadlifts, OHP) that will give your core real strength. Don't do ab work with weights, especially with an injured back. There's no reason for it. The trunk will get strong from compounds. The endurance is something you want to focus on more, considering it's used statically most of the time, and when doing squats or deadlifts you need that durability.
The only thing you may want to work on is some dynamic flexion/extension plane movements, 'cause when you squat or deadlift, if you don't stay tight, you'll bend forward. Being strong dynamically in this plane will decrease your chance of injury. In order to do this, you'll want to do curlups.
No, not situps. Curlups. You lay on the floor, one leg extended (doesn't matter which, alternate if you want) and one bent with the foot planted on the floor. Place your palms on the ground, and slide your hands under your lower back. This will help keep the natural curve of your spine. If you have to, make fists to support your back. Don't use your elbows to prop yourself up off the floor with the movement, which is esentially curling yourself upward. Keep the cervical & thoracic spine aligned (i.e., don't curl the head forward or bend the neck - keep it stiff!) while raising the head and shoulders (haha, shampoo) slightly off the floor. Do not raise too far! The goal is to rotate only at the mid-thoracic spine. You should have your elbows on the floor (no support, though), and the shoulders 1-2" away from it. Hold in this position (again, 7-8 seconds, work up to 10 reps or so) then slowly lower. These are an amazing way to build endurance in the rectus abdominis. In fact, I'd do these over planks, but some people can't understand how to do them correctly, so planks would be better initially.
Oh, and also, do pushups with one hand each on basketballs. This will definitely strengthen the abdominals. The above will all suffice though, this is just a neat thing to try.
Finally, don't use the valsalva maneuver for supporting the back. It's not as effective as Rippetoe thinks (and I can cite a bunch of stuff on this if I have to). Instead, try using the abdominal bracing technique. No pushing the stomach out, no sucking it in. Just tighten your abs. This keeps the erectors sturdy. Breathe normally, but keep the abs tightened.
If you have trouble flexing the abs while steadily breathing (or breathing heavily while liftng) then you need more conditioning. Try riding a stationary cycle for 3-5 minutes on a high setting, then getting off, standing tall and working on breathing while holding the abs flexed.
I think that's all for now, but I may have forgotten something. I feel like I wanted to say something else.
I have three bulging discs, as you probably know. That said, I think I have some pretty solid input to give regarding the back and how to go about healing it by now.
First, focus on local muscular endurance. Core/trunk/back/ab (whatever the fuck you wanna call it all) should be done daily. I wouldn't do it within the first two or three hours of waking, for reasons I don't feel like going in to.
Anyway, do planks, side bridges, and birddogs. If you need descriptions, just ask and I'll post 'em up, but I'd bet you can find them online as well. Anyway, you do these movements semi-statically. By this I mean, you get in the plank position and hold for 7-8 seconds maximum. After 7-8 seconds, let your core relax and rest on your knees for a brief moment. After a second of that, go back into the plank and hold for 7-8 seconds. Each hold of 7-8 seconds is a rep. Do these for a single set once (or twice, but see if once works for you, no reason to go twice if you don't need it) a day, probably 8-10 repetitions. You should be pretty fried by then. The same goes for side bridges and birddogs. Longer than 7-8 seconds has been shown to be no less beneficial, and the short break allows the exercise to work better (again, not going into it here).
Once you've built up to a satisfactory level of endurance, you can try planks on the swiss ball (much more difficult), side bridges with various progressions (get there then ask, I'll describe 'em), and birddogs with light ankle/wrist weights. As you progress to the higher levels, you'll be building more strength while maintaining your endurance. Eventually, you'll continue with the core work and slowly work back into the main lifts (squats, deadlifts, OHP) that will give your core real strength. Don't do ab work with weights, especially with an injured back. There's no reason for it. The trunk will get strong from compounds. The endurance is something you want to focus on more, considering it's used statically most of the time, and when doing squats or deadlifts you need that durability.
The only thing you may want to work on is some dynamic flexion/extension plane movements, 'cause when you squat or deadlift, if you don't stay tight, you'll bend forward. Being strong dynamically in this plane will decrease your chance of injury. In order to do this, you'll want to do curlups.
No, not situps. Curlups. You lay on the floor, one leg extended (doesn't matter which, alternate if you want) and one bent with the foot planted on the floor. Place your palms on the ground, and slide your hands under your lower back. This will help keep the natural curve of your spine. If you have to, make fists to support your back. Don't use your elbows to prop yourself up off the floor with the movement, which is esentially curling yourself upward. Keep the cervical & thoracic spine aligned (i.e., don't curl the head forward or bend the neck - keep it stiff!) while raising the head and shoulders (haha, shampoo) slightly off the floor. Do not raise too far! The goal is to rotate only at the mid-thoracic spine. You should have your elbows on the floor (no support, though), and the shoulders 1-2" away from it. Hold in this position (again, 7-8 seconds, work up to 10 reps or so) then slowly lower. These are an amazing way to build endurance in the rectus abdominis. In fact, I'd do these over planks, but some people can't understand how to do them correctly, so planks would be better initially.
Oh, and also, do pushups with one hand each on basketballs. This will definitely strengthen the abdominals. The above will all suffice though, this is just a neat thing to try.
Finally, don't use the valsalva maneuver for supporting the back. It's not as effective as Rippetoe thinks (and I can cite a bunch of stuff on this if I have to). Instead, try using the abdominal bracing technique. No pushing the stomach out, no sucking it in. Just tighten your abs. This keeps the erectors sturdy. Breathe normally, but keep the abs tightened.
If you have trouble flexing the abs while steadily breathing (or breathing heavily while liftng) then you need more conditioning. Try riding a stationary cycle for 3-5 minutes on a high setting, then getting off, standing tall and working on breathing while holding the abs flexed.
I think that's all for now, but I may have forgotten something. I feel like I wanted to say something else.
anotherbutters
New member
I hope it wasn't that you're going to test me on all that! That's a lot of good info. Thanks for taking the time. "You must spread k around before giving it to anyone"Anthrax Invasion said:
I came across this article whilst looking up side bridges (which, as I expected, turn out to be what I call planks on the side). Several people have recommended static holds for core strength, but that article explained why:
I'll include the first of their exercises, which "involves recruiting the transversus abdominis, pelvic floor and deep muscles of the lower back" by contracting the pelvic floor. I wish they gave a name for it because that's a bit of a mouthful. 'Pelvic floor exercise' will do.
I'll also do planks, side bridges and curl ups. Bird dogs sound like super heroes, but done on your knees, not lying on your stomach. Is there any particular reason for choosing one over the other? I'll include one of those too.
I didn't know about the back flexion in the morning issue, so thanks for pointing that out. I found some more good info here, on t-nation regarding morning workouts and core work. I'm already pushed for time trying to work out in the mornings before work, so I skimp on warming up and stretching, even though I know it's important for injury prevention
. I don't really want to get up any earlier (already 5:45am), so I think I'll have to go back to working out in the evenings. The only trouble is, the evenings are the only time when I get a good meal full of veggies, so I might have to start taking food into work again.I'll drop the OHP work. You're right, it makes sense. So, I'm thinking of a daily routine of the following (this is probably what it should have been anyway):
* 10 min walk (coming home from the train)
* 5 easy mins on the rowing machine to get properly warmed up
* planks, side bridges, bird dogs/super heroes, curl ups, pelvic floors - 8 sets of 8 seconds each (in series, not circuit)
I thought I'd throw the rower in there because I'm usually cold after getting in, but is this wise, given that it uses a lot of back? I'd only be getting my heart up to say 140bpm.
My workout days are fairly bastardized, now that I'm skipping OHP too. I'll be getting the 'squat from the hip' gizmo soon, so how does the following sound, done after the above routine?
Mon: hip squats, bench, row, hyper, reverse hyper
Tue: chins
Wed: hip squats, incline bench, hyper, reverse hyper
Thu: chins
Fri: hip squats, bench, row, hyper, reverse hyper
I thought increasing the frequency (and volume) of chins might help them, since I've always struggled with them. Incline bench is in place of OHP, but how inclined dare I go? Just 30', 45', or should I not do them at all? Hypers and reverse hypers, I'll do a few sets of 12-15 reps at bodyweight for now. Is the frequency ok or should I do more/less? I'll also do a decent amount of stretching after every workout.
anotherbutters
New member
Since I was ordering the hip-squat device from Iron Mind, I thought I might as well order a Coc #1 (20 bucks, or 1 euro, lol). It'll be interesting to see how it compares with the Ivanko at the so-called same setting.
A
Anthrax Invasion
Guest
Nah, not gonna test you, AB. Not yet, anyway.
The exercises I listed work all the same muscles their pelvic floor exercise will. Don't bother with theirs. The "big three" I suggested are from Stuart McGill, an authority on lower backs. I'd do the curlup, followed by the side bridge, and finally the birddog.
Yes, there's a reason for the birddog over the superman, and you're right about how it's done. It's on the knees, one arm and opposite leg lifted, no hiking the hip, etc. The birddog has the same effect (though takes longer, 'cause you gotta do both sides seperately) but puts much less in way of compressive force on the spine. Hellish forces, in fact. Better to be safe than sorry.
I will say this, though - I did sky-divers (another name for the supermen) in the past and didn't feel any problems with 'em. Could be 'cause my problem isn't so bad, or 'cause I didn't do 'em long enough. I'd play it safe and try birddogs, but it's up to you.
McKenzie/Cobra pushups are great too. You do a pushup with your pelvis against the floor, looking straight ahead. You raise to the top, pause, let your lower back sag lightly, then slowly lower. Works great for relieving back pains. Throw these in if you want.
Don't stretch prior to a workout anyway. Ride the stationary bike, and maybe throw in some calisthenics. Quick warmup in five minutes. Stretch after, mainly the important muscles (postural-related and back related). Warmups - just make 'em more cardio like by going through 'em a little quicker by cutting rest times, if you can. Good for warming up at the same time, anyway. I agree with Rippetoe on squats being great for a total body warmup. Bodyweight squats would work just as well.
8 sets of 8 secs? I guess you meant 8 reps of 8 secs, but whatever. Just don't wanna get lost here, thinking you're gonna do 8x8 - for 8 seconds each. I wouldn't do all those. Do the following:
Curlups - 5 reps @ 5 seconds each - work up to 10 reps @ 8 seconds each
Side Bridges - same as above
Birddogs - same as above
Just saw you mentioned the rower - that should work just fine, up to you. Just don't let the back round at all, pull the shoulder blades together, keep upright, etc. Or do what I suggested.
Forget hypers and reverse hypers. Do the other stuff. No reason to throw in all that crap, it'll be too much. Also, do the core stuff after your lifting.
Increased frequency for chins will be fine, as long as it doesn't adversely impact your recovery, which it shouldn't.
Incline bench at 30 degrees will be fine. Good choice.
Honestly, the routine isn't that bastardized. For athleticism it might suck, but for general health, strength and size, it should be fine. You've got the squats (though less effective, still good to maintain), bench, incline bench (your OHP shouldn't suffer too greatly, but it will need some work), rows (honestly, the support only takes the lower back out of the movement, which can be used both dynamically or statically - and this gets worked in other ways. The muscles that need to be worked will still be worked. CCJ does 'em supported, and I don't think he's got a problem.), and chins.
Honestly, I like the routine as it is. Deadlifts are missing (big deal), and you can't OHP. Oh well. Could be much worse.
The exercises I listed work all the same muscles their pelvic floor exercise will. Don't bother with theirs. The "big three" I suggested are from Stuart McGill, an authority on lower backs. I'd do the curlup, followed by the side bridge, and finally the birddog.
Yes, there's a reason for the birddog over the superman, and you're right about how it's done. It's on the knees, one arm and opposite leg lifted, no hiking the hip, etc. The birddog has the same effect (though takes longer, 'cause you gotta do both sides seperately) but puts much less in way of compressive force on the spine. Hellish forces, in fact. Better to be safe than sorry.
I will say this, though - I did sky-divers (another name for the supermen
) in the past and didn't feel any problems with 'em. Could be 'cause my problem isn't so bad, or 'cause I didn't do 'em long enough. I'd play it safe and try birddogs, but it's up to you.McKenzie/Cobra pushups are great too. You do a pushup with your pelvis against the floor, looking straight ahead. You raise to the top, pause, let your lower back sag lightly, then slowly lower. Works great for relieving back pains. Throw these in if you want.
Don't stretch prior to a workout anyway. Ride the stationary bike, and maybe throw in some calisthenics. Quick warmup in five minutes. Stretch after, mainly the important muscles (postural-related and back related). Warmups - just make 'em more cardio like by going through 'em a little quicker by cutting rest times, if you can. Good for warming up at the same time, anyway. I agree with Rippetoe on squats being great for a total body warmup. Bodyweight squats would work just as well.
8 sets of 8 secs? I guess you meant 8 reps of 8 secs, but whatever.
Just don't wanna get lost here, thinking you're gonna do 8x8 - for 8 seconds each. I wouldn't do all those. Do the following:Curlups - 5 reps @ 5 seconds each - work up to 10 reps @ 8 seconds each
Side Bridges - same as above
Birddogs - same as above
Just saw you mentioned the rower - that should work just fine, up to you. Just don't let the back round at all, pull the shoulder blades together, keep upright, etc. Or do what I suggested.
Forget hypers and reverse hypers. Do the other stuff. No reason to throw in all that crap, it'll be too much. Also, do the core stuff after your lifting.
Increased frequency for chins will be fine, as long as it doesn't adversely impact your recovery, which it shouldn't.
Incline bench at 30 degrees will be fine. Good choice.
Honestly, the routine isn't that bastardized. For athleticism it might suck, but for general health, strength and size, it should be fine. You've got the squats (though less effective, still good to maintain), bench, incline bench (your OHP shouldn't suffer too greatly, but it will need some work), rows (honestly, the support only takes the lower back out of the movement, which can be used both dynamically or statically - and this gets worked in other ways. The muscles that need to be worked will still be worked. CCJ does 'em supported, and I don't think he's got a problem.
), and chins.Honestly, I like the routine as it is. Deadlifts are missing (big deal), and you can't OHP. Oh well. Could be much worse.
anotherbutters
New member
The description I read for the superman was lifting the opposite arm and leg as in bird dogs, but whatever, I'll do the bird dogs. I don't really have a preference, but I tried them both earlier and noticed the compressive forces on the superman/sky divers.
I forgot to mention the cobras. That was another one I was thinking of doing, although it was already looking like the kichen sink wouldn't be out of place.
I work out at home and don't have a stationary bike (well, apart from the pushbike I haven't used in 8 years). The rowing machine is all I have for warmups, which is why I mentioned it. I'll either do that or some calisthenics. Either way, I'll make sure I warm up more than I've done in the past (usually bar x 2 x 9 squats).
Yeah, I meant 8 reps of 8 secs at those exercises, lol. Reverse hypers seem to be highly recommended by everyone that mentions them, which is why I threw them in. I might leave them in, if only for peace of mind.
Core stuff after lifting, check.
You're right, the routine doesn't look too bad, and things could be a lot worse. Cheers.
I forgot to mention the cobras. That was another one I was thinking of doing, although it was already looking like the kichen sink wouldn't be out of place.
I work out at home and don't have a stationary bike (well, apart from the pushbike I haven't used in 8 years). The rowing machine is all I have for warmups, which is why I mentioned it. I'll either do that or some calisthenics. Either way, I'll make sure I warm up more than I've done in the past (usually bar x 2 x 9 squats).
Yeah, I meant 8 reps of 8 secs at those exercises, lol. Reverse hypers seem to be highly recommended by everyone that mentions them, which is why I threw them in. I might leave them in, if only for peace of mind.
Core stuff after lifting, check.
You're right, the routine doesn't look too bad, and things could be a lot worse. Cheers.
