New Guy Cycle Questions

[Toptoon1]

Long time listener, first time caller. I suppose I will start off by saying thanks in advance to all that reply. This is a great site full of information and that wouldn’t be possible without all you responders. I have read a lot of discussions here and the pattern seems to be after someone asks a question, the response is usually, what are your stats, So I guess I will go ahead and get that out of the way. Im 26, 5/11, 190lbs, around 20% BF. I have been working out for a year now. My workout is my own twist on Bill Stars 5x5, and is as follows.

Mon: Bench 5x5, Squat 5x5, Dead Lift 5x5,
Tue: Dips, pull ups, leg raises.
Wed: Bench 5x5, Squat 5x5, Dead Lift 5x5,
Thurs: Dips, pull ups, leg raises.
Fri: Bench 5x5, Squat 5x5, Dead Lift 5x5,
Sat: Rest day.
Sun: Rest day.


I also alternate every week. For example one week I will add (barbell curls and dumbbell lat raises) and the next week I will add (Behind the neck military presses and calf raises) So the basis of my workout consists of 4 compound exercises 3 times a week with an emphasis of increasing the weigh small amounts weekly and bi monthly for the 2 exercises I alternate.

I plan on doing a cycle in the future. The actual plan is to do it when I am able to complete my basic 3 lifts workout with no less then 4 plates 225lbs. Of course the one lagging is my bench. But I should be there conservatively in 6 months or so.
So my question is, being as this is my first cycle, is it a decent first cycle? Am I forgetting anything? Does it look like I have all my bases covered? Especially my ideas concerning PCT, cause from what I understand this is where the gains you make go by by, if its not up to par.

Week 1: Test E 500mg - Dianabol 20mgs/day
Week 2: Test E 500mg - Dianabol 20mgs/day
Week 3: Test E 500mg - Dianabol 20mgs/day
Week 4: Test E 500mg - Dianabol 20mgs/day
Week 5: Test E 500mg
Week 6: Test E 500mg
Week 7: Test E 500mg
Week 8: Test E 500mg
Week 9: Test E 500mg
Week 10: Test E 500mg
Week 11: Test E 500mg
Week 12: Test E 500mg


Now im torn between leaving that alone, or tapering it at the end, for example week 11 dropping the Test E to 400mg. And then week 12 dropping it to 300mg. I am also torn between adding Dianabol again week 9-10. I think maybe I should just leave it alone. Its basic and simple. Any suggestions?


Also I was wondering about the following during the 12 weeks.

1: Nizoral shampoo to help prevent baldness.

2: 1 to 1.25 mg of Finasteride a day to help prevent the Test E converting to DHT and thus helping to prevent baldness and enlarged prostate.

3: Low cholesterol diet.(heart attacks are bad)

4: 25mg of Nolva a day to help prevent testicular shutdown in the first place and also prevent Gyno. Or should I just use it as needed for the Gyno and use it for PCT?

Ok what I really need info on is PCT!
From what I understand I want to use HCG and Nolva is this correct? If it is how much and for how long? And also aren’t you supposed to stop one before the other? Something about since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

I think I got the Cycle down but PCT is making my head spin. Im pretty sure I need HCG and Nolva. So how much of each is recommended and for how long after the cycle?
Also what’s the deal with milk thistle? I understand its to help the liver cause all this stuff reeks havoc on the little guy. How much milk thistle is recommended and is there anything else to ease all these substances on the liver?
Yeah I know im all over the board with this post but im just trying to get it all straight. Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[joe d]

the cycle looks good. i would personally up the dbol to 30 or 40mg. you need adex during the cycle not nolva. adex dosage should start at .25 eod and be reased in incriments of .25 if needed keeping it eod. you can use hcg throughout the cycle to prevent shrinkage. but i will leave dosage to someone else because i have never used it. i would do the pct like this

14-17 nolva 20mg 2x per day
17-18 nolva 10mg 2x per day
14 -18 pp trs as directed

 

[sweed]

dbol 1-4
test e 1-12
thats a little bit easier! haha ya up dbol to 25-30 mgs.
would like to see you loose some fat before starting tho.
how long have you been working out?? JUST SAW ONLY 1 Year!! Stay off for 5 years minumim before even thinking about AS! Most guys on here wait almost 10 years before starting a cycle!

 

[Cardinal Slin]

looks good to me bro. good luck

 

[2evil]

Nice, well thought out post bro.

I think you should limit your cycle to 10 weeks for the first one.

For HCG use and PCT - I'd read over this: http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/ultimate-testosterone-recovery-stack-primordial-performance


Then come back with more questions. Look into the testosterone recovery stack from Primordial Performance. That, with a low dose of nolva will work very well for your PCT.

There is evidence that using Sustain Alpha 3 days on and 3 days off during a cycle will work like HCG. PP isn't really pushing this right now but it sounds promising. (I'll be dooing this during an 8 weeker starting in March. I will post LH/ FSH results here!)

As for the Milk thistle - it's good to run while you're on the orals. 1 gram per day split into 2 doses is generally the recommended dose. I like AI Cycle Support better and it includes the milk thistle as well as a lot of other ingredients for overall health - especially cardio health and lipid support. I use that with Liv52.

 

[Cardinal Slin]

Oh and my reasoning in sticking to what you have planned:
dbol can seriously cause water retention and that's in addition to the testosterone. For a first cycle you should experience some good results from what you have listed and may limit side effects by going with the selected doses.

 

[Toptoon1]

the cycle looks good. i would personally up the dbol to 30 or 40mg. you need adex during the cycle not nolva. adex dosage should start at .25 eod and be reased in incriments of .25 if needed keeping it eod. you can use hcg throughout the cycle to prevent shrinkage. but i will leave dosage to someone else because i have never used it. i would do the pct like this

14-17 nolva 20mg 2x per day
17-18 nolva 10mg 2x per day
14 -18 pp trs as directed

I think I may up the dbol a tad. As far as the Liquidex, which if I am not mistaken is the same as Arimidex (Anastrozole). I don’t think that would be a good choice. From what I understand Nolva does not stop the formation of estrogen, but stops the estrogen from exerting its effects by competitively taking up the receptors for this hormone. This allows them to stop any problems dead in their tracks, acting very fast, but upon discontinuation allowing for immediate influx of estrogen again as well. This has the benefit that it can be used as soon as problems arise, and discontinued when they subside, thereby only reducing estrogen-mediated gains for the time-span of the occurring problem (mostly gyno). on the other hand Liquidex is a Aromatase blocker which will pretty much stop eliminate all estrogen from my cycle. from what I understand you do want some estrogen in your cycle as it heavily promotes strength and gains as well (increases GH, upgrades the androgen receptor, improves glucose utilization). Again from what i understand is that eliminating the estrogen at the level liquidex does will make for cleaner gains but it greatly reduces gains as well, or makes them so much slower. Another reason why i want to go with Nolva is because it was that or clomid. from what i gather Nolva is way stronger pound for pound. And another benefit would be its dual uses. I can use the Nolva incase of Gyno flare ups and also use it for PCT. so it would have 2 uses and cut down on getting alot of different gear. What do you think?

Im not sure about the policy on siteing sources here. I don’t know if its recommended or shunned, but where I got this info(Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - 43 Full Steroid Profiles!)

 

[joe d]

dont use liqui anything. buy tabs eclenbuterol.com or 4rx.com. if you take to much adex it would completely eliminate estro. dosing it right will not. nolva only stops gyno while on cycle it does have other effects that are good for pct.

 

[Toptoon1]

12

 

[Toptoon1]

dont use liqui anything. buy tabs eclenbuterol.com or 4rx.com. if you take to much adex it would completely eliminate estro. dosing it right will not. nolva only stops gyno while on cycle it does have other effects that are good for pct.

Thanks for the link and the info. That stuff sounds amazing. Looks like it has everything you need for pct in it. As well it should for the msrp. Speaking of the msrp, I have to ask, have you ever patronized the establishment?

 

[Toptoon1]

dbol 1-4
test e 1-12
thats a little bit easier! haha ya up dbol to 25-30 mgs.
would like to see you loose some fat before starting tho.
how long have you been working out?? JUST SAW ONLY 1 Year!! Stay off for 5 years minumim before even thinking about AS! Most guys on here wait almost 10 years before starting a cycle!

dbol 1-4, test e 1-12. Yes that would have been a lot easier, LOL. Ill remember that for next time. Im curious as to the suggestion of losing "FAT" before starting. The only reasons I could come up with besides fat = bad is because maybe its due to the idea that I will be gaining a lot of weight in the form of water, fat, and hopefully muscle on the cycle. So my thinking as to your reasoning is that if I drop the Bf to say 10% and I gain another, I don’t know 15% on the cycle then my BF would be at 25% rather then 35%. This is all I could think of as to your reasoning. Was that your idea behind your dropping the fat suggestion or was it just because 20% is not all that great. Oh and I got to comment on the stay off the gear for 5 year suggestion. LOL, thanks for the advice but we both know that’s not gonna happen. I think I would rather do this same cycle once every year for 5 years then to wait 5 years to do it once. I totally realize the 5 year abstinence is sound advice seeing as I should wait to hit my natural potentiall then and only then use gear to help improve that, but my ideology is not based on getting to my natural peak in 5 years. Its just to make some nice advances and keep them there. Again thanks for your response and suggestions, they are appreciated.

 

[joe d]

Thanks for the link and the info. That stuff sounds amazing. Looks like it has everything you need for pct in it. As well it should for the msrp. Speaking of the msrp, I have to ask, have you ever patronized the establishment?

i buy from both of them. they are good

 

[joe d]

i keep my bf at 20% on and off. i will not cut until pre contest. i dont think it is a problem.

 

[EZ_E]

Toptoon1, welcome to EF....it looks like you've done your homework...

I like the switching up of the workout routine as you posted...

Good looking cycle, you've gotten some good words of wisdom here, good luck with it when you take the plunge

 

[sweed]

wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better. to each his own. You shouldn't gain any fat on cycle , maybe a percent or 2 at most if you know how to diet. 15% fat to gain on cycle is rediculous. I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally, because I know how to gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time. It's called experience.

 

[joe d]

wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better. to each his own. You shouldn't gain any fat on cycle , maybe a percent or 2 at most if you know how to diet. 15% fat to gain on cycle is rediculous. I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally, because I know how to gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time. It's called experience.

thats not really it. bulking is how you build bigger muscles faster. cutting is how you shed fat fastest doing both at the same time is getting some muscle gain (but not as much as you could) while staying thin. a lot of people do this because they want to look good all the time. others dont because they want to put on more size before they do that or because they compete and only need to look good for the show. if you are part or all endo you need to let your body carry that fat if you really want to grow. even straigt meso's would be good in the mid to upper teens. i tried that stay lean bulk stuff natty for years i froze at 169lbs at 5'5'' 11%bf was the last i logged before i forgot about looking good and started thinking about growing muscle only. i then jumped to 220 18% bf still natty before i got stuck again. now 3 cycles in im somewhere over 248 at 21%. if i stayed at my 11% id be lucky to be at 200lbs right now. how do i know this? It's called experience.

 

[micksnowdog]

i've just done a very similar cycle under the tutorage of need2.
500mg test e week 1-10
30mg dbol week 1-5.

i would go with joe d's advice, it is almost exactly what i would have said. with the hcg there's a lot of ways to do it, the way i was recommended was pretty simple one hit per week 500iu 6-10 that makes 5 hits tho think abuot it, the shit is only good in the fridge for 30days and only if you use bac water so get a 1500 and a 1000 iu vial, i started doing a lean bulk and then threw it all in and went all out and just ate every lean bit of protein i could shovel in. if heart attacks are going to be an issue i would forget it or at least consult a very good doc first, dbol sent my blood pressure through the roof, seriously. dbol is great you get strong and horny and you feel like you can lift anything anywhere. but everyone seems to be affected differently

 

[RADAR]

wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better. to each his own. You shouldn't gain any fat on cycle , maybe a percent or 2 at most if you know how to diet. 15% fat to gain on cycle is rediculous. I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally, because I know how to gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time. It's called experience.

Well I go against the grain here , i do the same thing as sweed, and the results are remarkable!



But! to each ,his own.

RADAR

 

[Toptoon1]

wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better. to each his own. You shouldn't gain any fat on cycle , maybe a percent or 2 at most if you know how to diet. 15% fat to gain on cycle is rediculous. I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally, because I know how to gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time. It's called experience.

I don’t believe this to be an issue of hard work. My personal philosophy on the matter is that of two roads. Suppose you have two roads that both lead to the same destination. One road winds and is made up of very rough terrain. The second road on the other hand leads straight to the destination and is paved. Now why would you want to take the longer road with the more rough terrain? I don’t know? You may like to hike, me personally, I dont like to hike. But I agree with what you said, to each his own. But at the same time if we are talking about the dislike of hard work being a character flaw, then why take steroids in the first place? Surely you can agree that with dedication, perseverance, knowledge, and enough time, everyone who applies themselves to the philosophy of weights can expect to reach there natural potential at some point in time. There are a couple different schools of thought concerning steroid gains. One particular theory that I happen to agree with states that a person cannot keep gains beyond what he is naturally able to sustain. For example, you peak at some point. everyone does. now to go beyond that peak you use steroids, the idea is that you have to stay on those steroids to keep the gains beyond what you are naturally able to achieve. So steroids can take you paste your peak but if you stop use you will ultimately drop back down to what you are naturally able to sustain. From what I understand the average person whose diet and training regime is inline can gain on average about 4lbs of lean muscle per every 100lbs of body weight yearly. Now on the other hand the average person on a cycle can expect to gain 8lbs of lean muscle per 100lbs body weight in a 12 week period. I guess im trying to justifiy or explain my reasons for seeking information on a proper cycle in response to your "wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better" comment, and in reality no justification is needed. I want to do what I want to do. As far as your answer to my question. Im lost. The 15% I mentioned earlier was obviously a hypothetical number used to exemplify the theoretical reasoning to your "Id like to see you lose weight" comment, who’s meaning has still not been clarified. And it wasn’t fat I was referring to specifically. It was fat, water, and muscle. So yeah, ( "I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally") No, actually I cant see. I am not equipped with a visual fat caliper, and no its not obvious to me why you would need to drop weight before a cycle. Also, that’s great that you can gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time, and thank you for letting me know that’s called experience. You cleared so much up for me with that post. You truly are a brilliant man. Thank you.

 

[needtogetaas]

I don’t believe this to be an issue of hard work. My personal philosophy on the matter is that of two roads. Suppose you have two roads that both lead to the same destination. One road winds and is made up of very rough terrain. The second road on the other hand leads straight to the destination and is paved. Now why would you want to take the longer road with the more rough terrain? I don’t know? You may like to hike, me personally, I dont like to hike. But I agree with what you said, to each his own. But at the same time if we are talking about the dislike of hard work being a character flaw, then why take steroids in the first place? Surely you can agree that with dedication, perseverance, knowledge, and enough time, everyone who applies themselves to the philosophy of weights can expect to reach there natural potential at some point in time. There are a couple different schools of thought concerning steroid gains. One particular theory that I happen to agree with states that a person cannot keep gains beyond what he is naturally able to sustain. For example, you peak at some point. everyone does. now to go beyond that peak you use steroids, the idea is that you have to stay on those steroids to keep the gains beyond what you are naturally able to achieve. So steroids can take you paste your peak but if you stop use you will ultimately drop back down to what you are naturally able to sustain. From what I understand the average person whose diet and training regime is inline can gain on average about 4lbs of lean muscle per every 100lbs of body weight yearly. Now on the other hand the average person on a cycle can expect to gain 8lbs of lean muscle per 100lbs body weight in a 12 week period. I guess im trying to justifiy or explain my reasons for seeking information on a proper cycle in response to your "wow people don't like real hard work these days. I guess the easy way out is better" comment, and in reality no justification is needed. I want to do what I want to do. As far as your answer to my question. Im lost. The 15% I mentioned earlier was obviously a hypothetical number used to exemplify the theoretical reasoning to your "Id like to see you lose weight" comment, who’s meaning has still not been clarified. And it wasn’t fat I was referring to specifically. It was fat, water, and muscle. So yeah, ( "I am 20 as you can see and need to drop obviously before cycle naturally") No, actually I cant see. I am not equipped with a visual fat caliper, and no its not obvious to me why you would need to drop weight before a cycle. Also, that’s great that you can gain lean muscle and loose fat at the same time, and thank you for letting me know that’s called experience. You cleared so much up for me with that post. You truly are a brilliant man. Thank you.

1. Sweed is talking to you like a grown up and you are talking back to him like a child. This right here shows me and everyone else you are to immature for steroids


2. Your health. A cycle of steroids can cause a lot of health risks. Cholesteral,bp,fatty liver, and more. These sides are magnified when you are over weight and using them.

3. You are using steroids to obtain a very easily obtainable goal that you could reach natural.
Forgoing the dedication,hard work, and training/diet knowledge You should be learning before you jump into steroids.

Sure you will obtain your goal. You will gain your muscle, maybe use another cycle to lose some fat.

Because you lack what it takes to obtain such easy goals naturally in the end you will become dependent on steroids for the rest of your life.

You will keep loosing your gains gaining the weight and going threw the same cycle over and over and it will get harder and harder each time. Maybe you will just say fuck it and stay on for life.


I mean why even come off steroids?? really though with your logic why even come off steroids bro? Just get on them now and just stay on them for life? right? Tell how your logic is any different then just saying fuck it and staying on for life. God damn think off the gains you can get and keep from that.


I don’t believe this to be an issue of hard work. My personal philosophy on the matter is that of two roads. Suppose you have two roads that both lead to the same destination. One road winds and is made up of very rough terrain. The second road on the other hand leads straight to the destination and is paved. Now why would you want to take the longer road with the more rough terrain?

Yup You are right, lets all just jump on steroids and stay on them for life. Lets all just get on 5g cycles to well we are at it. Why keep fucking around. With your logic if we can get from point a to point b with 5000mgs much faster then well why the hell not right? WHo cares about sides, who cares about learning about what diet and training works for you. Who cares about hard work and dedication.



If you can't achieve such a easy obtainable natural goal naturally. How do you expect to hold onto it? Because it takes just as much hard work and dedication to keep as is should to gain it. You think once you get there you are just going to stay there with out having to work to keep it?