Israel has some big nuts

[the nature boy]

I did not put any words in your mouth - you used the phrase "bring them to light," and that means something. I'm not being overly pedantic, I'm just pointing out that the words you use have connotations, and that's why I explained what exactly my objections are. Also, for the sake of keeping this in perspective, the Arab side is presented by numerous countries, not just the Palestinians. In the War of 1948, the invading armies of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria all butchered Jews.

I hate to nitpick, but both of my posts mentioned pali's and arabs. Did they not?

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

I hate to nitpick, but both of my posts mentioned pali's and arabs. Did they not?

You're right. Let's relax now.

 

[the nature boy]

You're right. Let's relax now.

agreed. (I guess this is sort of a relaxed looking icon)

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

As I've mentioned in my previous post, before the declaration of statehood in 1948, the Jewish community in Palestine, called the Yishuv, was very well-organized and was involved in the economic and cultural development of that country. In the 1930's, as anti-Semitism intensified in Europe, many Jewish scientists came to British-ruled Palestine, as others went to the US. Oppenheimer and his friends were from this same cultural milieu. These scientists established schools and universities in what later became Israel, such as the Technion, that are some of the most prestigious scientific institutions in the world.

Israel received a lot of help from the US over the years, but the massive US support of Israel did not begin until the late 1960's. That's a fact. Please do a little research and obtain some basic info before you post. The fact is that the Israelis worked with the French during the 1940's and 50's to get their nukes. I'm not saying that there were no covert actions on the part of Israelis, but for the most part their nuclear program has been developed thanks to their native resources and their cooperation with the French (and the French probably received some help from the US.)

(Israel may very well have worked with the French in developing Nukes, but don't you think the VAST majority of their knowledge came from Jewish scientists who previously worked on the manhatten project, which cost the U.S billions?? I really don't think Israel has the land to conduct underground tests like the U.S had. That's probably why they worked with the French because at that time the French were conducting underground tests. But I guarantee you that without the manhatten project, Israel would have been "nuke less" for quite some time. I don't think Israel had any supercolliders in the 40's and 50's either.

Israel's existence rests on numerous factors. I'm not underestimating US support (which has been important), but to claim that's the sole reason why they're still around is ignorant.

(Of course their still around regardless of U.S support, but there wouldn't have been an Israel in the first place without U.S and UK intervention. No, they're doing just fine on their own now.)


Israel did not receive any US help in the wars of 1948, 1956, and only some in 1967. There was some assistance and American arms in the Israeli Army in 1967, but much of the weaponry was non-American. So, that thesis of constant specter of US support is very shaky to say the least. However, I'm not denying that today Israel has US support, but they also cooperate heavily with the Russians and the Turks.


(Were not U.S bought planes used in the 6 day war as well as Russian planes??)



Also, the constant incongruities in your description of possible military scenarios deserve a rebuttal. The Israelis never had any desire to march into Iraq and Iran, not only because they have no political ambitions in that part of the Middle East, but because those countries are located hundreds of miles away from Israel. Israel had to defend its borders against states that did not recognize UN resolutions concerning the peaceful resolution and partition of that area.



(I know Israel has no desire to invade any of those countries, they're not big enough to. I was responding to someone else who insinuated that Israel could invade and occupy Iran, Irag, Syria etc... which is absolutely ludicrous)


As for the sheer size of all Arab armies, well, of course they have that as a plus. In a military conflict that would stretch out for a long period of time, that would definitely tip the scale in their favor, however, this presupposes Arab unity, and that is something that has been impossible to achieve in the past, and is unlikely to happen any time soon.


(You're absolutely right, there really is no Arab unity....I pointed that out in earlier post as being one of Israels strengths, they know that full well and use it to thier advantage. However, if Israel really goes over the line at some point, they'll see Arab unity, they'll see it awfully well. But yes it is unlikely to happen because Israel knows full well what would happen if it did. In fact, i almost wish it would happen so that Israel say's fuck it and nukes the whole region)

I'd also like to add that when a group is said to be Syrian-backed or Iranian-backed, as in the Palestinian DFLP or the Lebanese Hezbollah, all that means is that most of their funding is derived from those states' governments (Syria and Iran, respectively.) It doesn't mean that the actual activists or fighters are from those countries.


(You're right on this when it comes to recruiting suicide bombers. Why would an Iranian or Lebanese run into a night club or supermarket with a chest full of C-4?? He wouldn't, they leave that to desperate palestinians whom they can easily prey on. But the core leadership and the "non-expendable" personell come from the respective countries who finance the shit baggers)



Hamas, which was formed in 1987 as the first Intifada gained momentum, is an extremist Islamic organization that seeks the destruction of Israel (a parliamentary democracy), and wishes to build a pure Islamic state in its place (yes, that means the annihilation of the Jews if they refuse to leave. Also, the Christian Arabs, such as Dr. Hanan Ashrawi would not be allowed to stay.)- this conflicts with the objectives of the Palestinian Authority, who, for the most part, accept UN Resolutions 181 and 242 and have agreed to the "two peoples, two states" solution. Hamas receives their funding from some extremist elements in the Palestinian Diaspora, from such militant organizations as the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood (who were responsible for the Luxor massacre in 1999) as well as from such states as Iran. The Islamic Jihad's network is not extensive as Hamas's (their cadres are not as well trained or educated), but they also get a lot of support and money from Iran. Let's not forget that despite the election of a more moderate (that term is very misleading) leader, Khatami, Iran is still a theocracy that is very much influenced by the Revolutionary Guards that gained a lot of power in Iran following the Islamic Revolution in 1979.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Please refer to various League of Nations documents and UN Resolution 181. You're being extremely ignorant if you think that the Jews appeared out of nowhere - please pick up an objective history book that does not deny either the continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for millennia, nor the Arab cultural, political, social, and religious attachment to that land as well. It works both ways - the purely dogmatic, rejectionist stand is for the ignorant. You should look into what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh says about this.

.

stumpy,

I believe that the majority of Palestine, before 1948 were Arab, Muslims. Jewish people who lived there at the time were a small minority and their rights to the lands IMHO are nil. I am sure you know as well as I do.

After the British handed over Palestine to the Jews, 50% of them immigrated from Eastern Europe and the ME (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt and Yemen)

And that thread by weapon X "what is Palestine", is quite absurd & pretty offending IMHO, especially towards Palestinians.

Claiming a land after centuries, is pretty ludicrous dont you think??

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

stumpy,

I believe that the majority of Palestine, before 1948 were Arab, Muslims.

Strong_Man20,

Yes, only someone who's very ignorant would deny that fact. You're right, the majority of the population was Muslim Arabs, but there were significant minorities of Christian Arabs of various sects, Armenians, Circassians, Greeks, and Jews (who had never left the land in the first place.) Also, within the Muslim Arab community there were people with roots in Bosnia. You should ask your older relatives if they remember how many Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim Slav) villages there were in northern Palestine.

Jewish people who lived there at the time were a small minority and their rights to the lands IMHO are nil. I am sure you know as well as I do.

I agree they were a small minority, but I disagree with you about their claims to the land as being limited (or as you put it - nil). I'm sure you know of the modern Armenians having their independent country only on like 20% of historic Armenia. In fact, some of the territory of the modern state of Armenia was historically Azeri Turkish, but they've gained it, or re-gained as some would say, during some bitter fighting at the beginning of the 20th century. Some territory is still claimed by both Armenians and Azeris (the Karabakh). The same thing applies to the Kurds in Iran (and other countries). I'm covering these related issues so that you would see how a minority in a land can claim that land because of that group's continuous presence there for centuries, as well as the deep emotional, cultural, religious, and historical significance of it to their very identity.

Why am I bringing all this up? Just so you would know that such conflicts are not unique. Because you're seeing this from only one perspective (I understand why), you can't seem to understand that it's possible to accept the moderate claims of both peoples. If a rejectionist, whether Arab or Jewish, can only see one side and refuses to accept that this isn't black or white, then, sorry to put it so bluntly, they lack the ability to fully comprehend this conflict. Your stance seems very rejectionist. I'm pointing this out, and I don't think you're getting it.

After the British handed over Palestine to the Jews, 50% of them immigrated from Eastern Europe and the ME (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt and Yemen).

Again, I recommend that you look into some League of Nations documents (specifically, The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, issued in 1922), UN Resolutions 181 and 242. The Mandate documents provides some basic legal understanding of the Jewish claims to Palestine, while UN Resolution 181, it was passed in 1947, calls for the partition of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state. UN Resolution 242 concerns the outcome of the War of 1967 and explicity addresses Palestinian rights.

There were several waves of immigration that added to the number of Jews already living in Palestine, starting in 1880. You're leaving out some very important details that make your argument seem very one-sided. First, the Jews didn't emigrate from Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, and Yemen following the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948. In the late 1940's, the Jews were massacred in all of the aforementioned countries (as well other Arab and Muslim countries.) Then hundreds of thousands of Jews fled those countries to come to Israel (no one else was taking them in.)

As for the Jews in eastern Europe, they faced the possibility of renewed carnage after the Nazi Holocaust. That's right - AFTER. After two thirds of all Jews in Europe were slaughtered, most people in Europe could care less about them. In fact, in places like Poland (where close to 90% of all Jews were exterminated) there were massacres after the war (the Kielce pogrom in Poland, in 1946).

Very few countries in the world even wanted to accept these Jewish refugees. Most of them had nowhere else to go but Israel. Can you blame them?

Now, I'm not denying Palestinian rights in any way, nor am I denying their history and the crimes that have been committed against them. I'm just exposing some things that have been probably presented to you through a propaganda prism, or not presented at all.

And that thread by weapon X "what is Palestine", is quite absurd & pretty offending IMHO, especially towards Palestinians.

I agree. You should scroll up this thread and see what I had posted in regards to that article (it's there, you'll just have to look hard.)

Claiming a land after centuries, is pretty ludicrous dont you think??

Please refer to my comments above for I've already answered that question. Also, I recommend doing a little research on what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh and Prof. Edward Said say on this matter (I hope you know who they are. I don't agree with many things that Said says, but some of the stuff he has penned is brilliant).

I'm also curious to find out what you think needs to be done to solve the problem there. Please, no memorized propaganda/rhetoric either - just your personal opinions that are, hopefully, not based on emotion and vengeance but on a desire to seek justice and peace (and try to be pragmatic, i.e. let's try to avoid unnecessary violent bloodbath scenarios.)

Salam/Shalom

 

[~HOUNDOG~]

What the fuck?
Who with more than half a brain cell would listen to stumpy dick?

 

[brainiac]

I believe we found our first Nazi of the board. Mr. brainiac. "They all deserve to die" Dude that is not even funny in a twisted way. Wasn't 6.5 million documented and probably twice that undocumented enough for your sick, twisted ass?

I didn't mean for it to come across so literally-and if you thought I was refering to just the Israelis you misread me. Both sides are fucked beyond all repair. I am sick of their fighting-and the fact that it is religious oriented pisses me off even more. If thet can't solve their fucking problems soon I still hope they all die-BOTH SIDES.

 

[brainiac]

Actually, both Einstein and Oppenheimer were involved with the organized Jewish community in Germany. Einstein was a major spokesman for Zionism until his death; he was also asked by Israel to become their first president, but he respectfully declined. The fact is that both Einstein and Oppenheimer, as well as other important personages like Freud, were persecuted by the Nazis because they were Jews.

OK, now I see where you are coming from...hahahahaha. Einstein and Zionism? What did you say about 'objective' viewpoints? Hahahahaha. Einstein was agnostic and lived his life based on truth and what we know to be REAL. He did speak out against Jewish persecution but he was far from Zion. Here is the link....

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Both sides are fucked beyond all repair. I am sick of their fighting-and the fact that it is religious oriented pisses me off even more. If thet can't solve their fucking problems soon I still hope they all die-BOTH SIDES.

It's mostly politics. Yes, religion plays a part, but it's mostly an ethno-political conflict.

OK, now I see where you are coming from...hahahahaha. Einstein and Zionism? What did you say about 'objective' viewpoints? Hahahahaha. Einstein was agnostic and lived his life based on truth and what we know to be REAL. He did speak out against Jewish persecution but he was far from Zion. Here is the link....

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

Do you even know what Zionism is? Do you know what it means to be a Jew? He was asked to become Israel's first president - that's a fact, and he was also a Zionist. You shouldn't talk about things that you don't fully understand.

Here's a link: http://www.sofitec.lu/misc/einstein.htm

Please read it.