BigPhysicsBastard said:
let's first get this out of the way, there would be no Israel WITHOUT THE U.S. Ok, now I fully realize that there were alot of jews behind the manhatten project, but what does that have to do with "Israel"?? Israel didn't exist until 1948, the manhatten project was started long before that. Now for some physics for you........DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR PROGRAM REQUIRES MORE THAN JUST A ROOMFUL OF SMART SCIENTISTS!! If all it took were smart people than China would be the leading nuclear power in the world. They have some of the most brilliant physicists on the planet, I know this personally due to my father and my Uncle. Up until a few years ago my Uncle ran THE PREMIER polymer physics program IN THE U.S, and therefore one of the top programs in the world. And both of them are invited to the Gordan conference every year. The reason I bring that up is because they are exposed to THE VERY BEST physicists in the world. So why is it than that China had to steal their program?? the logistics involved in a nuclear program just simply go beyond a few smart mother fuckers, or in China's case, a whole fucking shitload of smart mother fuckers. And of course once the physicists manage to spit a hydrogen atom, it's up to the engineers to deliver it in a feasible fashion. So no, Israel would not have had nuclear capability in such a short time without the U.S.......PERIOD!!
As I've mentioned in my previous post, before the declaration of statehood in 1948, the Jewish community in Palestine, called the Yishuv, was very well-organized and was involved in the economic and cultural development of that country. In the 1930's, as anti-Semitism intensified in Europe, many Jewish scientists came to British-ruled Palestine, as others went to the US. Oppenheimer and his friends were from this same cultural milieu. These scientists established schools and universities in what later became Israel, such as the Technion, that are some of the most prestigious scientific institutions in the world.
Israel received a lot of help from the US over the years, but the massive US support of Israel did not begin until the late 1960's.
That's a fact. Please do a little research and obtain some basic info before you post. The fact is that the Israelis worked with the French during the 1940's and 50's to get their nukes. I'm not saying that there were no covert actions on the part of Israelis, but for the most part their nuclear program has been developed thanks to their native resources and their cooperation with the French (and the French probably received some help from the US.)
Israel's existence rests on numerous factors. I'm not underestimating US support (which has been important), but to claim that's the sole reason why they're still around is ignorant.
BigPhysicsBastard said:
I'm no way shape or form doubting the Israeli military. I know damn well how tough they are. But making the six day war as an argument that they could have run over all the arab nations is a bit misleading. Without U.S jets in their arsenal they would not have done what they did. Plus, this was back in the sixties, most arab countries mech divisions consisted of WW2 machinery. So of course the Israeli airforce routed them. But were you honestly implying that Israel could have marched it's ground troops all over the mideast?? Had Israel moved into Iran, Syria, Iraq...whatever.....every able bodied muslim would have picked up an AK-47 and converged on Israel. The muslim world's own divisiveness and unstability has been Israels very strength. But you simply can't deny that without Nukes and the spector of U.S support......if the major Arab countries decided to get together and send troops into Israel, eventually they WOULD overrun it. I mean c'mon, the israeli army is VERY good, but not THAT good. We're talking about MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of muslims, untrained or not, flooding into a tiny country like Israel. Not only would they have the trained armies of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt to deal with......they'd also have the Jihad folks to deal with. Sorry, but both of you know this to be true.
Israel did not receive any US help in the wars of 1948, 1956, and only some in 1967. There was some assistance and American arms in the Israeli Army in 1967, but much of the weaponry was non-American. So, that thesis of constant specter of US support is very shaky to say the least. However, I'm not denying that today Israel has US support, but they also cooperate heavily with the Russians and the Turks.
Also, the constant incongruities in your description of possible military scenarios deserve a rebuttal. The Israelis never had any desire to march into Iraq and Iran, not only because they have no political ambitions in that part of the Middle East, but because those countries are located hundreds of miles away from Israel. Israel had to defend its
borders against states that did not recognize UN resolutions concerning the peaceful resolution and partition of that area.
As for the sheer size of all Arab armies, well, of course they have that as a plus. In a military conflict that would stretch out for a long period of time, that would definitely tip the scale in their favor, however, this presupposes Arab unity, and that is something that has been impossible to achieve in the past, and is unlikely to happen any time soon.
I'd also like to add that when a group is said to be Syrian-backed or Iranian-backed, as in the Palestinian DFLP or the Lebanese Hezbollah, all that means is that most of their funding is derived from those states' governments (Syria and Iran, respectively.) It doesn't mean that the actual activists or fighters are from those countries.
Hamas, which was formed in 1987 as the first Intifada gained momentum, is an extremist Islamic organization that seeks the destruction of Israel (a parliamentary democracy), and wishes to build a pure Islamic state in its place (yes, that means the annihilation of the Jews if they refuse to leave. Also, the Christian Arabs, such as Dr. Hanan Ashrawi would not be allowed to stay.)- this conflicts with the objectives of the Palestinian Authority, who, for the most part, accept UN Resolutions 181 and 242 and have agreed to the "two peoples, two states" solution. Hamas receives their funding from some extremist elements in the Palestinian Diaspora, from such militant organizations as the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood (who were responsible for the Luxor massacre in 1999) as well as from such states as Iran. The Islamic Jihad's network is not extensive as Hamas's (their cadres are not as well trained or educated), but they also get a lot of support and money from Iran. Let's not forget that despite the election of a more moderate (that term is very misleading) leader, Khatami, Iran is still a theocracy that is very much influenced by the Revolutionary Guards that gained a lot of power in Iran following the Islamic Revolution in 1979.
Whoa, I got to slow down here. Gotta give my fingers some rest.
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