Israel has some big nuts

[brainiac]

Do you even know what Zionism is? He was asked to become Israel's first president - that's a fact, and he was also a Zionist. You shouldn't talk about things that you don't fully understand.

Here's a link: http://www.sofitec.lu/misc/einstein.htm

Please read it.

Oh, I understand the full situation-and you are trying too hard to hide your bias. He turned it down because....why? Check out my link again pal. And all this, still based on beliefs that no one ever can or will prove true. I know what Zionism is-and Einstien, as compassionate as he was for fellow people(all people really) of Jewish decent could care less whether they got Palastine for a country of their own or North Africa. He just wanted peace and for people to stop fighting over stupid bullshit. You started out on this post making sense...but I see now you are biased, intelligent, but biased still. Now I am really done with tis post. You are smoked out. Buh-by.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Oh, I understand the full situation-and you are trying too hard to hide your bias.

Uh, no you don't understand the full situation. Point out my bias.

He turned it down because....why? Check out my link again pal. And all this, still based on beliefs that no one ever can or will prove true.

Your link did not mention Zionism even once. You don't even know what that means. It's largely a secular movement.

I know what Zionism is-and Einstein, as compassionate as he was for fellow people(all people really) of Jewish decent could care less whether they got Palestine for a country of their own or North Africa.

No, that not he wanted for the Jews. And I still believe that you don't understand what Zionism is. It's not the same thing as Judaism. Judaism is a religion and ethno-cultural heritage, Zionism is a political/cultural movement. I can't believe you think that you know what you're talking about.

He just wanted peace and for people to stop fighting over stupid bullshit. You started out on this post making sense...but I see now you are biased, intelligent, but biased still. Now I am really done with tis post. You are smoked out. Buh-by.

I'm still making sense. You point out where exactly I was being biased. Go ahead, point it out. You won't be able to. Even the link that you provided did not mention Zionism once. I can't understand why you would even say the things you're saying. You're obviously ignorant of some basic facts.

You've given up on this thread? Hmmm... how convenient.

 

[brainiac]

Uh, no you don't understand the full situation. Point out my bias.

Your link did not mention Zionism even once. You don't even know what that means. It's largely a secular movement.

No, that not he wanted for the Jews. And I still believe that you don't understand what Zionism is. It's not the same thing as Judaism. Judaism is a religion and ethno-cultural heritage, Zionism is a political/cultural movement. I can't believe you think that you know what you're talking about.

I'm still making sense. You point out where exactly I was being biased. Go ahead, point it out. You won't be able to. Even the link that you provided did not mention Zionism once. I can't understand why you would even say the things you're saying. You're obviously ignorant of some basic facts.

You've given up on this thread? Hmmm... how convenient.

The origin of the word "Zionism" is the biblical word "Zion", often used as a synonym for Jerusalem -and the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael)-of which used to also be called be Palestine. . Zionism is an ideology which expresses the yearning of Jews the world over for their historical homeland - Zion, the Land of Israel. Einstein could care less where land to form a country was given to them -but since only one tract of land was truly in the picture his support for peace for Jews in Israel was misunderstood.

And Zionism was not mentioned in my link about Albert's most famous quotes because....com'mon, I know you can finish a thought yourself without memorized propaganda or rhetoric...I am an equal opportunity hater. Biased: You and attack posts here with statements supporting one side of the argument. And that is why you are no more fun and I am somewhere else on this board.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Israel may very well have worked with the French in developing Nukes, but don't you think the VAST majority of their knowledge came from Jewish scientists who previously worked on the manhatten project, which cost the U.S billions?? I really don't think Israel has the land to conduct underground tests like the U.S had. That's probably why they worked with the French because at that time the French were conducting underground tests. But I guarantee you that without the manhatten project, Israel would have been "nuke less" for quite some time. I don't think Israel had any supercolliders in the 40's and 50's either.

Most of the Jewish scientists who came to the US in the 1930's stayed here. I don't how many of them were involved with the nuclear programs in the USSR, France, or what became Israel. I think most of them concentrated their efforts on the "Manhattan Project." Maybe some of them were spies, I don't know, but I do know that the USSR, France, and the scientific community of pre-state Israel carried out some very intensive programs that relied on native resources. Of course, there was some spying involved (duh... the Russkies!), but the French and the Israeli network spy networks have not been sensationalized to the same degree. Who knows what kind of shady crap took place behind the scenes. We can only speculate.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Of course their still around regardless of U.S support, but there wouldn't have been an Israel in the first place without U.S and UK intervention. No, they're doing just fine on their own now.

Actually, it was mostly the intervention of several international bodies - first, the League of Nations, then the UN. Both organizations worked on settling the emerging conflict peacefully, and called for a partition. Also, Israel received diplomatic approval from many nations upon the declaration of independence in 1948, from US, USSR, and other countries. Nowadays, Israel has peace treaties with both Jordan and Egypt. Hopefully, in the near future, the right-wingers in Israel will be put in their place and the negotiations on the final-status agreements between Israel and Palestine can resume (i.e., the return of refugees, the removal of settlements, demilitarization of the whole area, etc.) In the best case scenario, both Syria and Iran would begin supporting the more moderate forces among the Palestinians, and stop their funding of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. The militants are not only undermining the Palestinian Authority but the Palestinian cause. That's what the PA Chief of security thinks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
Were not U.S bought planes used in the 6 day war as well as Russian planes??

You're right. That's why I said Israel received some military assistance in 1967, but significantly more in 1973. To keep things in perspective: the Russkies supplied both the Syrians and the Egyptians with their best weapons in 1973.

Originally posted BigPhysicsBastard
I know Israel has no desire to invade any of those countries, they're not big enough to. I was responding to someone else who insinuated that Israel could invade and occupy Iran, Irag, Syria etc... which is absolutely ludicrous.

It's not just the size, but their overall political ambitions. I now understand the context in which you said that, and I agree with you.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
You're absolutely right, there really is no Arab unity....I pointed that out in earlier post as being one of Israels strengths, they know that full well and use it to thier advantage. However, if Israel really goes over the line at some point, they'll see Arab unity, they'll see it awfully well. But yes it is unlikely to happen because Israel knows full well what would happen if it did. In fact, i almost wish it would happen so that Israel say's fuck it and nukes the whole region

I don't think war is good for anyone, especially nuclear war. The right-wing in Israel, like Sharon and his buds, are really dangerous and fucking nuts. The problem is that the US supports those elements unconditionally, and doesn't give a fuck about the moderates there. This, in turn, is really bad for the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. I hope the moderates, on both sides, can somehow influence a more evenhanded US approach to this. I really hope so.

Originally posted by BigPhysicsBastard
You're right on this when it comes to recruiting suicide bombers. Why would an Iranian or Lebanese run into a night club or supermarket with a chest full of C-4?? He wouldn't, they leave that to desperate palestinians whom they can easily prey on. But the core leadership and the "non-expendable" personell come from the respective countries who finance the shit baggers.

Well, about the Hamas. It's true that they got much of their funding from abroad, however, their leaders are Palestinian who happen to be very well-educated professionals. (http://www.palestine-info.com/hamas/) The US media demonizes them and focuses exclusively on their military wing, but they're not a bunch of idiots. They run schools, hospitals, summer camps, and take care of the poor. They provide a basic support network in the face of constant bullshit from the Israeli right-wing (and that has claimed many innocent Palestinian lives.)

However, they remain extremist militants and killing innocent Israeli civilians is not a crime to them. Most Palestinians are fed up with the situation. But how many of them do you think can rationalize about this calmly in terms of politics when they have nothing to eat, when they have to wait for hours to get through a checkpoint just to get to work in, let's say, east Jerusalem? They're desperate people, just like regular Israelis (I'm not comparing their economic or political situation, just the emotional stress derived from their daily existence) who vote right-wingers into office based on often meaningless promises of better security.

So, how can the moderates on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides get out of the vicious cycle? The US government needs to stop unconditionally supporting the Israeli right-wing, and should start worrying about both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Conversely, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, and especially the Syrians, the Iraqis and the Iranians (all three support the extreme right-wing among the Palestinians) need to put pressure on the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad (as well as the Lebanese Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon). Will it happen any time soon? We'll see. Maybe the Russians will step up their diplomatic efforts (they wield a lot of influence in the Arab world - the history of Russo-Arab cultural exchange dates back to the days of the ancient Rus and early Islamic caliphates), but they will only act if they can secure further deals with the IMF and World Bank and get better loan guarantees from the EU and the US.

The collapse of the Soviet Union really left a power vacuum in the world. Hopefully, the EU, Russia, China, the moderates in the Arab world and Israel, and other nations of the world can somehow recalibrate the scale that has tipped into a state of complete American mono-polarism after the collapse of the USSR. At least bi-polarism provided some balance during the Cold War. Now, I think it's time for world multi-polarism - with moderates prevailing everywhere. However, the transition period between mono-polarism (that has resulted in a lot of crap) and a more balanced world multi-polarism will depend greatly on whether regular people here in the US will realize US's actual role in world affairs. Our people need to do some serious thinking, because only we can change the situation on the ground. I think 9/11 showed what can result if the American people don't demand accountability from their leaders. It really is up to us - either we continue living in a state of denial and ignore what really goes on the world, or we act. I prefer the latter, and I sincerely hope others feel the same way.

It is a pleasure to discuss these matters with you, BPP.

Peace.

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

The origin of the word "Zionism" is the biblical word "Zion", often used as a synonym for Jerusalem -and the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael)-of which used to also be called be Palestine. . Zionism is an ideology which expresses the yearning of Jews the world over for their historical homeland - Zion, the Land of Israel.

That's a pretty decent definition. Note that it's a theoritical framework, and like any such broad concept , it can evolve and change according to the times, even if it means discarding some basic tenets for the sake of peace and justice. That means if a just peace between Israelis and Palestinians would require some reworking of certain Israeli institutions, well those changes would have to be implemented. The same approach should apply to the civil and legal codes of the Palestinian Authority (Palestine).

Einstein could care less where land to form a country was given to them -but since only one tract of land was truly in the picture his support for peace for Jews in Israel was misunderstood.

Please show me where exactly he had said that. Maybe you could cite your sources? When and where did he say that he doesn't care where the Jews get national sovereignty?

And Zionism was not mentioned in my link about Albert's most famous quotes because.....

Because that site addresses Einstein's attitudes on the epistemology of religion. That site has nothing to do with either politics, or Jewish rights in Palestine. Do you understand the difference between these two completely unrelated subjects?

com'mon, I know you can finish a thought yourself without memorized propaganda or rhetoric...I am an equal opportunity hater.

Oh, wow, you're a hater. That's nice to know. Tell me exactly where I've responded with "memorized propaganda or rhetoric"-generated replies. You can point out what you disagree with in specific sentences, can you not? Or are you going to just accuse me of something, and then conveniently run away?

Biased: You and attack posts here with statements supporting one side of the argument. And that is why you are no more fun and I am somewhere else on this board.

I'll repeat this again (this is getting really tiresome ). If you state something of such accusatory nature, i.e. "you're biased," then you need to show me where you disagree with me. Do you understand how that works? It's called a discussion. That's what BigPhysicsBastard and I are doing - he and I comment on a particular subject, and then we find what we disagree with and what we agree on. Then we move on from there. You can observe that in action if you scroll up this thread.

So far you've not produced one shred of evidence to support your claim. Point out the words, the ideas or anything that you disagree with, how that demonstrates how biased I am, and then we'll take it from there.

I've already explained why that link you provided is not applicable to this discussion. It doesn't support your stance, because it's completely irrelevant to what you were saying.

Did you run away again? You think you can just blurt something out and then leave like a child who's pissed that he didn't get his cookies before bed? At least have the decency to respond to this.

 

[BigPhysicsBastard]

stumpy seems pretty even keeled to me......don't know why there has to be insultes flung. It's good discussion, why bring in the insults??

 

[Strong_Man20]

Strong_Man20,

Yes, only someone who's very ignorant would deny that fact. You're right, the majority of the population was Muslim Arabs, but there were significant minorities of Christian Arabs of various sects, Armenians, Circassians, Greeks, and Jews (who had never left the land in the first place.) Also, within the Muslim Arab community there were people with roots in Bosnia. You should ask your older relatives if they remember how many Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim Slav) villages there were in northern Palestine.



I agree they were a small minority, but I disagree with you about their claims to the land as being limited (or as you put it - nil). I'm sure you know of the modern Armenians having their independent country only on like 20% of historic Armenia. In fact, some of the territory of the modern state of Armenia was historically Azeri Turkish, but they've gained it, or re-gained as some would say, during some bitter fighting at the beginning of the 20th century. Some territory is still claimed by both Armenians and Azeris (the Karabakh). The same thing applies to the Kurds in Iran (and other countries). I'm covering these related issues so that you would see how a minority in a land can claim that land because of that group's continuous presence there for centuries, as well as the deep emotional, cultural, religious, and historical significance of it to their very identity.

Why am I bringing all this up? Just so you would know that such conflicts are not unique. Because you're seeing this from only one perspective (I understand why), you can't seem to understand that it's possible to accept the moderate claims of both peoples. If a rejectionist, whether Arab or Jewish, can only see one side and refuses to accept that this isn't black or white, then, sorry to put it so bluntly, they lack the ability to fully comprehend this conflict. Your stance seems very rejectionist. I'm pointing this out, and I don't think you're getting it.



Again, I recommend that you look into some League of Nations documents (specifically, The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, issued in 1922), UN Resolutions 181 and 242. The Mandate documents provides some basic legal understanding of the Jewish claims to Palestine, while UN Resolution 181, it was passed in 1947, calls for the partition of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state. UN Resolution 242 concerns the outcome of the War of 1967 and explicity addresses Palestinian rights.

There were several waves of immigration that added to the number of Jews already living in Palestine, starting in 1880. You're leaving out some very important details that make your argument seem very one-sided. First, the Jews didn't emigrate from Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, and Yemen following the declaration of Israeli statehood in 1948. In the late 1940's, the Jews were massacred in all of the aforementioned countries (as well other Arab and Muslim countries.) Then hundreds of thousands of Jews fled those countries to come to Israel (no one else was taking them in.)

As for the Jews in eastern Europe, they faced the possibility of renewed carnage after the Nazi Holocaust. That's right - AFTER. After two thirds of all Jews in Europe were slaughtered, most people in Europe could care less about them. In fact, in places like Poland (where close to 90% of all Jews were exterminated) there were massacres after the war (the Kielce pogrom in Poland, in 1946).

Very few countries in the world even wanted to accept these Jewish refugees. Most of them had nowhere else to go but Israel. Can you blame them?

Now, I'm not denying Palestinian rights in any way, nor am I denying their history and the crimes that have been committed against them. I'm just exposing some things that have been probably presented to you through a propaganda prism, or not presented at all.



I agree. You should scroll up this thread and see what I had posted in regards to that article (it's there, you'll just have to look hard.)



Please refer to my comments above for I've already answered that question. Also, I recommend doing a little research on what Dr. Sari Nusseibeh and Prof. Edward Said say on this matter (I hope you know who they are. I don't agree with many things that Said says, but some of the stuff he has penned is brilliant).

I'm also curious to find out what you think needs to be done to solve the problem there. Please, no memorized propaganda/rhetoric either - just your personal opinions that are, hopefully, not based on emotion and vengeance but on a desire to seek justice and peace (and try to be pragmatic, i.e. let's try to avoid unnecessary violent bloodbath scenarios.)

Salam/Shalom

Stumpy,

You make valid points. The holocaust was a traumatic period for the Jews, however this does not mean that their right to the region is justifiable.

Not only have they taken the land, but also they have behaved in the same way Germany did during WW2. That may sound a little extreme but I don’t see much difference between someone like Ariel Sharon or Adolph Hitler...do you??

The facts speak for its self. Just a few days ago he ordered 50 homes to be bulldozed, which left hundreds homeless in the middle of winter. He has also been involved in countless atrocities, which resulted in thousands of innocent Palestinians massacred.

Have you ever been to this region?? I have, and when you see places like Tel Aviv, where life is pretty good comparing to even European standards. Then you will be shocked to know, that only 40 minutes away there are areas were people cant even afford to feed them selves, and streets full of sewage.
They are treated like 3rd class citizens in there own country, and no one gives a rat’s ass.

The Israeli public supports these acts; otherwise they would not have elected Sharon. They knew the score with this asshole, and knew what to expect from him.

Palestinians should fight fire with fire until they recognise that Palestinians have a right to there land.

I don’t think the ME is a very secure location for the Israelis. They don’t have any sense of security; they are surrounded; by countries that hate their guts because of the way they have behaved. Dictators like king Abdullah of Jordan are what is keeping the ME divided, and this is were Israel get their strength.

One day I hope the people will wake up, and clean out these traitors...then the state of Israel will be in trouble and justice will be prevailed

 

[Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)]

Stumpy,

You make valid points. The holocaust was a traumatic period for the Jews, however this does not mean that their right to the region is justifiable.

Strong_Man20,

If the world community has recognized Jewish rights in their historic homeland (you do know where the word 'Jew' comes from, right? Judea, as in the modern West Bank.), then don't you think they can live there? I'm not justifying any crimes that have been committed against the Palestinians, i.e. Al-Nakba or the Palestinian Catastrophe, but to claim that the Jews don't belong there at all, no matter how they behave or what their government is is also pretty absurd, don't you think?

Not only have they taken the land, but also they have behaved in the same way Germany did during WW2. That may sound a little extreme but I don’t see much difference between someone like Ariel Sharon or Adolph Hitler...do you??

I wouldn't compare Israel's behavior to what the Nazis did in WWII (in fact, I think your analogy reeks of anti-Semitism), but I agree with the fact that massacres of the Palestinians did take place - whole villages were destroyed and people forced out. But some of the Arab armies in the war of 1948, like the Syrians and the Egyptians also raped and killed innocent Jews that happened to be civilians. Do you think that was justifiable?

While Ariel Sharon is most certainly a right-wing extremist and he's guilty of numerous crimes, I would not compare him to Hitler. The core of the ideologies are completely different - you really are comparing apples and oranges here. The Nazis exterminated people based on race and claimed lands for the Germans that were never historically German. How can you compare Jewish claims in what is historically their land (not just their land, obviously) to what the Nazis did to millions of completely innocent people? Are you really that prejudiced?

However, I'm not going to argue that Sharon is a nice guy. You draw your own conclusion.

The facts speak for its self. Just a few days ago he ordered 50 homes to be bulldozed, which left hundreds homeless in the middle of winter. He has also been involved in countless atrocities, which resulted in thousands of innocent Palestinians massacred.

I'm not going to argue with what is obviously true.

Have you ever been to this region?? I have, and when you see places like Tel Aviv, where life is pretty good comparing to even European standards. Then you will be shocked to know, that only 40 minutes away there are areas were people cant even afford to feed them selves, and streets full of sewage.
They are treated like 3rd class citizens in there own country, and no one gives a rat’s ass.

I've lived in Haifa, been all over Israel, been to Palestine (Jericho), Jordan, and Egypt. You're right, the contrast between Tel-Aviv and Jericho was striking - it was like going from a trendy spot in Southern California to some part of the Third World.

Did you read one of my posts above? I explained the conditions of despair that the Palestinians live in. I know their overall situation sucks. But I really don't think that violence is going to achieve anything. I really don't. Only economic and political cooperation between the Israelis and the Palestinians will bring about peace.

The Israeli public supports these acts; otherwise they would not have elected Sharon. They knew the score with this asshole, and knew what to expect from him.

The Israeli public is emotionally naive as the Palestinians - they rely more often on their instincts and emotions as opposed to logic. Can you blame them? They support corrupt, right-wing politicians because the right-wingers promise them security and more jobs. If you were an Israeli mother whose daughter was ripped to shreds in a blast while waiting in line to get into a technoclub, would you not support some right-winger who insists on going after the animals who killed innocent Israeli teenagers?

Palestinians should fight fire with fire until they recognise that Palestinians have a right to there land.

Did you read what the PA chief of security said? Here, take a look again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

The Palestinians do have a right to their land. Is the Palestinian Authority not the official government in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

Violence never solves anything. It really doesn't. Look at what Sharon is doing - do you think that's going to bring peace to Israel? Of course, not. But neither will any sort of a violent campaign on the part of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad do anything to help the situation. You're being very naive if you think that those guys want a just peace.

I don’t think the ME is a very secure location for the Israelis. They don’t have any sense of security; they are surrounded; by countries that hate their guts because of the way they have behaved. Dictators like king Abdullah of Jordan are what is keeping the ME divided, and this is were Israel get their strength.

Their state is a reality that you have to deal with. You really believe that the Israelis are just going to pack their bags and leave? Where are they going to go? And if they refuse to leave at gunpoint, what are going to do - kill them? Then you're just as bad as Sharon.

Btw, I hope you realize that not all Israelis are Jews. Many Palestinians have Israeli citizenship (like in Nazareth, and other places in the Galilee). Are you going to kill them, too? Or just the Israeli Jews?

You call Abdullah a dictator. I'm curious now, what types of government do you support? Theocracies of the Iranian kind? Or do you favor a democracy?

One day I hope the people will wake up, and clean out these traitors...then the state of Israel will be in trouble and justice will be prevailed.

See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood would then support Hamas, and what does that mean? You're right, they'll launch a war against the whole country of Israel. And you would support that? Would you cheer on the street and hug your friends because the Jews are being butchered in Israel by fundamentalists who have don't even represent true Islam?

What do you want? You want peace, or do you want more blood? You really think that the annihilation of Israel (we're talking wholesale slaughter of civilians) will bring justice? If you answer "yes," then I'm sorry, but I don't think I can consider you sane.

 

[Strong_Man20]

Strong_Man20,

If the world community has recognized Jewish rights in their historic homeland (you do know where the word 'Jew' comes from, right? Judea, as in the modern West Bank.), then don't you think they can live there? I'm not justifying any crimes that have been committed against the Palestinians, i.e. Al-Nakba or the Palestinian Catastrophe, but to claim that the Jews don't belong there at all, no matter how they behave or what their government is is also pretty absurd, don't you think?



I wouldn't compare Israel's behavior to what the Nazis did in WWII (in fact, I think your analogy reeks of anti-Semitism), but I agree with the fact that massacres of the Palestinians did take place - whole villages were destroyed and people forced out. But some of the Arab armies in the war of 1948, like the Syrians and the Egyptians also raped and killed innocent Jews that happened to be civilians. Do you think that was justifiable?

While Ariel Sharon is most certainly a right-wing extremist and he's guilty of numerous crimes, I would not compare him to Hitler. The core of the ideologies are completely different - you really are comparing apples and oranges here. The Nazis exterminated people based on race and claimed lands for the Germans that were never historically German. How can you compare Jewish claims in what is historically their land (not just their land, obviously) to what the Nazis did to millions of completely innocent people? Are you really that prejudiced?

However, I'm not going to argue that Sharon is a nice guy. You draw your own conclusion.





I'm not going to argue with what is obviously true.



I've lived in Haifa, been all over Israel, been to Palestine (Jericho), Jordan, and Egypt. You're right, the contrast between Tel-Aviv and Jericho was striking - it was like going from a trendy spot in Southern California to some part of the Third World.

Did you read one of my posts above? I explained the conditions of despair that the Palestinians live in. I know their overall situation sucks. But I really don't think that violence is going to achieve anything. I really don't. Only economic and political cooperation between the Israelis and the Palestinians will bring about peace.



The Israeli public is emotionally naive as the Palestinians - they rely more often on their instincts and emotions as opposed to logic. Can you blame them? They support corrupt, right-wing politicians because the right-wingers promise them security and more jobs. If you were an Israeli mother whose daughter was ripped to shreds in a blast while waiting in line to get into a technoclub, would you not support some right-winger who insists on going after the animals who killed innocent Israeli teenagers?



Did you read what the PA chief of security said? Here, take a look again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1747000/1747683.stm

The Palestinians do have a right to their land. Is the Palestinian Authority not the official government in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

Violence never solves anything. It really doesn't. Look at what Sharon is doing - do you think that's going to bring peace to Israel? Of course, not. But neither will any sort of a violent campaign on the part of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad do anything to help the situation. You're being very naive if you think that those guys want a just peace.



Their state is a reality that you have to deal with. You really believe that the Israelis are just going to pack their bags and leave? Where are they going to go? And if they refuse to leave at gunpoint, what are going to do - kill them? Then you're just as bad as Sharon.

Btw, I hope you realize that not all Israelis are Jews. Many Palestinians have Israeli citizenship (like in Nazareth, and other places in the Galilee). Are you going to kill them, too? Or just the Israeli Jews?

You call Abdullah a dictator. I'm curious now, what types of government do you support? Theocracies of the Iranian kind? Or do you favor a democracy?



See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood would then support Hamas, and what does that mean? You're right, they'll launch a war against the whole country of Israel. And you would support that? Would you cheer on the street and hug your friends because the Jews are being butchered in Israel by fundamentalists who have don't even represent true Islam?

What do you want? You want peace, or do you want more blood? You really think that the annihilation of Israel (we're talking wholesale slaughter of civilians) will bring justice? If you answer "yes," then I'm sorry, but I don't think I can consider you sane.

Stumpy,

I find it very difficult to believe that a diplomatic approach is the solution of getting justice for Palestinians. Israel has made it clear that they are not interested in peace. The problem with Israel is that they want everything in there plate and they are not willing to share.

It seems to me that Israel will not accept that Palestine belongs to them also, more so than the Jews. Israel’s idea of solving this conflict is by killing as many Palestinians as possible, they have broken every law by accordance with the Geneva conventions act. So I ask you, how can you talk about peace when they have shown only brutality towards the Palestinians?? It seems to me that Israel will only speak one language, and that is of violence.

So what would be the next step for Palestinians?? Continue fighting until Israel realise that they are not going no where either, until they allow Palestinians to declare there own independent state in the west bank.

And with; regards to your question about Hitler being in the same category as Sharon. Well just because he has not declared that he hates Palestinians, and would not like to see all of them killed does not mean he doesn’t.

And he may not have killed the same amount of people as Hitler did...but numbers don’t mean anything. Are you trying to tell me that someone like Timothy Mcveigh is not in the same category as the one who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks because he did not claim as many lives??

Like I said in my previous post, he was responsible for countless exterminations of Palestinians. One in mind was during the 1980's at a refugee camp in Beirut, which claimed thousands of lives.

See, I had hoped that you would avoid a violent scenario, but you insist on going there. Tell me, if the moderate leaders, the "traitors" that you speak of, are ousted, what kind of people will come to power in places like Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon?

. [/B]

The type of government I would support, is one that is there to serve the interest of the people and not the US or Israel. I favour a law that abides with Islam. One were you are allowed the freedom of speech and to vote.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The type of government I would support, is one that is there to serve the interest of the people and not the US or Israel. I favour a law that abides with Islam. One were you are allowed the freedom of speech and to vote.

Explain further. "Islamic" countries - those where the majority of the citizens practice Islam generally provide the fewest freedoms.

The only Middle Eastern country where an Arab or Muslim can vote is Israel. Israel provides more freedoms to Muslim citizens than any other country in the region.

Help me here.