how come native americans don't bitch as much as blacks do?

[gotmojo]

You think ghettos and barrios are bad?

Go to any reservation (over 50 people). They make black and mexican neighborhoods look like Beverly Hills.

70% are unemployed, 90% are uneducated, and 80% of males under 30 have see prison time.

Natives do it to themselves, and blame the white man for their problems. This allows them to be stupid and continue the same societal ills.

I generally like the majority of your posts, you seem to ask pretty insightfull questions for the most part. But on this you are so completely wrong! The fact that you can say this applies to ANY reservation is just complete and total trash. You seem to gloss over the fact that I don't dispute these types of reservations do exist or that the mentality is not there. Hell, I have stated that fact several times in this thread. You need to be a little more intuned to what you are talking about instead of condemming an entire race that you yourself happen to be a part of. The people you speak of exist in all races and they all have their own personal people or things to place blame upon. And your "stats" are so far of the the mark it's laughable.

2005 statistics.
Native Americans and African Americans are together, being right behind the White population in percetages of people living below the poverty line at only 25.6%.

Native Americans are third, just behind African Americans being second, right behind the White population in percetages of actual employment.
White = 61.6% of the population being employed with an unemployment rate of 5.7%.
African Americans = 56.7% of the population being employed with an unemployment rate of 13.2%.
Native Americans = 54.5% of the population being employed with an unemployment rate of 13.6%.

Not the numbers you would suggest.

So with these two together, that just blows the education and prison #'s you posted out of the water. There was a time when your #'s were sadly true, however, it's been a good 30 years since those #'s have been going the other direction.

How about these #'s:

On food stamps and TANF.
White = 41.6%
Black = 34.9%
Native = 1.6%

The # of Native Americans obtaining an Associates, Bachelors, and Masters degree has tripled in each category, not even close to that for any other race.
College enrollment alone is up for Native Americans by more than 90%.
The amount of college degrees earned is actually increasing for all races, and declining for whites.

The crime factor is actually so low a few factors couldn't even be gauged against the much higher numbers from other races.

It's all here:
http://factfinder.census.gov/home/aian/index.html
http://www.census.gov/statab/www/sa04aian.pdf

I chose to speak in this thread because blanket statements were being used to describe ALL Native Americans, and I for one take offense when somebody calls me a lazy worthless drunk, if that is something you can accept then sorry 'bout ya.
Yes there are reservations like that, not ALL. I have proved "visually" that mine for one is not. Yes there are Native Americans like that, not ALL. I have proven that I for one am not. I don't dispute the fact and experiences of others, however, there is no way that can or should be applied to an entire race of 4.5 million people.
I do not care what the reasoning is, what the, geography is, or anything else for that matter. What I do care about is the fact that these issues are not race specific and apply to EVERYONE on the flippin' planet, only difference is I choose not to pigeon hole and brow beat entire races of people for something that is as common within ALL races as getting a cold.

 

[jackangel]

you like the majority of razornav posts? you were doing so well up until that point.

 

[gotmojo]

you like the majority of razornav posts? you were doing so well up until that point.

You have to consider the # of them I actually read.

 

[gotmojo]

Much of the genocide was due to foreign illness rather than actual direct oppression. I know Indians have been fucked, but historically no more than anyone else. My ancestors were white and they lived as serfs in Europe, which was a form of virtual slavery with the Black Plague, smallpox, cholera and various other diseases visiting all the time. Everyones life sucked up until a few hundred years ago. Of course I do not directly experience any negative residual effects of what happened hundreds of years ago, which isn't really true for non-whites.

You are absolutely right!

Foreign illness was it!

Like say for instance, blankets that were deliberately infested with smallpox and given to entire tribes for the sole purpose of wiping them out.

 

[Lao Tzu]

You are absolutely right!

Foreign illness was it!

Like say for instance, blankets that were deliberately infested with smallpox and given to entire tribes for the sole purpose of wiping them out.

Yeah there was that. But much of the death was just due to immune system incompatibilities between Indians & westerners. That is like me claiming that rats and fleas committed genocide against my people because of the black plague.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I'll tell you something nice about being bombed (or at least on teh brink) you get to use tons of nice colors

 

[musclemom]

The "Native" American culture was stagnant for thousands of years. That may be cruel in your eyes, but destruction of that culture was inevitable.

Red, I like you, but that's a damned piece of paternalistic propaganda used as justification for wanton destruction. The pagan cultures were destroyed because they were, generally, nicer than the invaders and didn't have the cool things that killed people really well. They didn't have those weapons because, they hadn't needed them! They were basically peaceful. But the big thing is pagans basically believe, "You do your shit, I'll do my shit ... you're shit is weird, but if it makes you happy, whatever." And it's THAT philosophy that ended up getting them killed or converted. They were willing to ACCEPT these invaders, despite their differences, because people who live close to the earth believe in both the intrinsic goodness of all life, and everyone's basic right to do their own thing.

Just because pagan/heathen cultures didn't have technological advancement that the invading cultures recognize doesn't mean their culture was "stagnant." Culture is more than who can kill the most people efficiently, who can stuff the most people into the smallest space in walled up and disease ridden/crime infested cities, and who can grow the most wheat per acre, screw how depleted the soil becomes.

Culture is how well the individual fares among the collective, how "happy" people are, how creative, how healthy, how much crime the people suffer, etc. (and a lot more shit I can't think of right now). Based on THAT criteria, the pagen cultures were generally MORE successful than the cultures that destroyed them.

Oh, and before you bring up the whole written word and lack of written tradition as being indicative of lack of sophistication/cultural stagnation ... dismissal of oral tradition is something that comes DIRECTLY from judeo-christian philosophy. MOST pagan cultures had oral tradition. The concept that anything that isn't WRITTEN DOWN is invalid is a relatively recent one in human history (past 4,000 years).

 

[gotmojo]

Yeah there was that. But much of the death was just due to immune system incompatibilities between Indians & westerners. That is like me claiming that rats and fleas committed genocide against my people because of the black plague.

This is true, but the fact that a races immune system wasn't prepared for what was brought into their "world" is no excuse for the people that brought it there to exploit it for the purpose of genoside. Two totally different ends of the spectrum. Also I am sure the rats and fleas didn't select your people to be eliminated. They were just doing their rat and flea thing. There was a conscious decision made to do this to these people. Kind of like, "Hey, they seem to have a problem with this that or the other, so let's make sure they contract it. That way nobody has to actually pull a trigger.".

 

[redguru]

Red, I like you, but that's such a damned piece of paternalistic propaganda used as justification for wanton destruction. The pagan cultures were destroyed becuase they were, generally, nicer than the invaders and didn't have the cool things that killed people really well. They didn't have those weapons because, they hadn't needed them! They were basically peaceful.

Just because pagan/heathen cultures didn't have technological advancement that the invading cultures recognize doesn't mean their culture was "stagnant." Culture is more than who can kill the most people efficiently, who can stuff the most people into the smallest space in walled up and disease ridden/crime infested cities, and who can grow the most wheat per acre, screw how depleted the soil becomes.

Culture is how well the individual fares among the collective, how "happy" people are, how creative, how healthy, how much crime the people suffer, etc. (and a lot more shit I can't think of right now). Based on THAT criteria, the pagen cultures were generally MORE successful than the cultures that destroyed them.

I disagree wholeheartedly, your criteria is entirely subjective. The entire purpose of our existence is to evolve into a more viable species. The useful lifespan of most aboriginal groups remained stagnant for millenia. The American Indians had no changes in musical or decorative art and only a couple of tribes even had begun a written language. The Northern and Southwestern tribes that were less nomadic had no changes in architecture in the same period. Dress, cooking methodology and utensils and weaponry also unchanged. Religious pantheons remained the same except when tribes remained in contact with other tribes.

 

[redguru]

Oh, and before you bring up the whole written word and lack of written tradition as being indicative of lack of sophistication/cultural stagnation ... dismissal of oral tradition is something that comes DIRECTLY from judeo-christian philosophy. MOST pagan cultures had oral tradition. The concept that anything that isn't WRITTEN DOWN is invalid is a relatively recent one in human history (past 4,000 years).

Because you had edited your post to include this paragraph while I was responding to the first, I'll respond to this.

Cunieform and Sanskrit are all older than Judeo-Christian writing. Even though writing is a relatively recent invention in human history, it developed in different cultures around the same time without interaction. That most of the pagan cultures did not develop it even thousands of years lately says a lot.