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Fighting a mountain lion



I am genuinly sorry sorry if I came off as overly harsh.


However, it is a pet peeve of mine when people argue a point that I know is wrong, and is factually based. It is like to me somone arguing that a wall of which we both stand in front is red, and they are trying to convince me it is green. As in the case of "sore" claiming, "A mountain lion will only attack you if you are a woman or child." Tell that to all the men that have been attacked by them. I am sure they will disagree.


A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.
 
ziggyziggy said:
OK, lets get something straight here. Real world results are much different than the size of a hole on a paper target. The 5.56 mm round has excellent ballistic properties for what is was designed for. That is, to engage a target out to roughly 400 meters, in a rifle with a barrel length of 14.5 inches or greater. Below a 14.5 inch barrel, the round will lose the necessary velocity to effectively engage a target out to the range that the round was designed for. However, at closer range, it will still have over three times the energy of a .45 ACP round.

However, more important than the energy delivered by the round, is what happens to the round when it enters the target....

A standard FMJ handgun round will enter the body, and barring striking a bone, it will continue into the target until all of its energy is depleted. This will cause one wound channel. Any soft tissue, blood vessel or organ damage will start the process of internal bleeding. Handgun rounds are inherently stable rounds in both low drag, low viscosity and high drag, high viscosity environments, and generally do not spall (tumble) within the body, as they simply lack the velocity and inherent instability in more viscous environments (aka: in the body) to do so.

A 5.56 mm round is an inherently stable round in low drag, low voscosity environments (aka: air), but is inherently unstable in high drag, high viscosity environments. What this means is that once the round has entered the body, it's inherent instability will cause it to spall, or tumble, once it has entered the body and penetrated a number of centimeters into soft tissue. That, coupled with its extreme velocity, causes a massive shockwave within the body, damaging blood vessels, soft tissue, and organs FAR outside the diameter of the initial wound channel.

As I said before, I have PERSONALLY seen the effects of both handgun rounds and rifle rounds on human beings. Both in combat situations, as well as in post mortem autopsys. Rifle rounds, in almost 100% of situations, cause massive internal injuries, far in excess of what a handgun will cause, simply because of the facts outlined in the above two paragraphs.

Extrapolating these results to an animal with the bone density and white adipose tissue depth of a bear, means that a handgun round will most certainly fail to kill a bear, as it will fail to penetrate these substances, barring extraordinary circumstances.

If you want to talk about terminal ballistic properties of various rounds, I would be more than happy to indulge. However, as I said before, barring extraordinary circumstances, shooting a bear with a handgun will just piss it off. :chomp:

Can it be done? Yes. Is it likely? Hell no!

to look at real world examples then
explain militiary complains about the .223 round
and the lack of complaints about the .45 round
also there are big game hunters who hunt with pistols
(I am not sure of them hunting bears specifically but big game in geneal such as boars moose etc) but I know of none that hunt anything bigger then a deer with a .223
(that dosn't mean it hasn't happend or anything just I've never heard of it)
 
Guvna said:
How many carry a .45? How many use it? Barely any.



"stopping powder is different from velocity."

Yes it is. You calculate foot pounds of energy (stopping power, essentially) with velocity and bullett weight. .223 wins every time.

barely any?
I guess the US Military from WWI on until relativly recently dosn't count then?

and if the .223 wins every time explain my question (instead of repeatedly dodging it because it takes away from your argument)
why so many complaints about the .223 from Military officers (esp Special Forces types) but so few (I've heard of zero) complaints about the .45
(which was used for many years by the US Military as the standard issue sidearm)
 
Guvna said:
I am genuinly sorry sorry if I came off as overly harsh.


However, it is a pet peeve of mine when people argue a point that I know is wrong, and is factually based. It is like to me somone arguing that a wall of which we both stand in front is red, and they are trying to convince me it is green. As in the case of "sore" claiming, "A mountain lion will only attack you if you are a woman or child." Tell that to all the men that have been attacked by them. I am sure they will disagree.


A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.

no I thin it's dumb to say a mountain lion will only attack a woman or child to
then again I think it's dumb for anyone to try and predict an animals behavior unless they work with that animal regularly
but that's a different argument

but I'm still waiting on an explination
math is one thing, results are another
big game pistol hunters yes
big game hunters using .22's? maybe but I've not heard of them
in fact I'v eheard that a .22 killing a lion would be a 'miracle shot'
tho I have heard of hunting boar and moose with pistols
I realize boar moose lions and bear are all different
but they all qualify as big game
believe it or not I also read a story about a hunters daughter dropping an elephant with a perfect eye shot from a .22
now THAT kicks ass
 
Kane Fan said:
barely any?
I guess the US Military from WWI on until relativly recently dosn't count then?

and if the .223 wins every time explain my question (instead of repeatedly dodging it because it takes away from your argument)
why so many complaints about the .223 from Military officers (esp Special Forces types) but so few (I've heard of zero) complaints about the .45
(which was used for many years by the US Military as the standard issue sidearm)

Compared to a handgun round, a rifle round will win every time. I have carried a .45 ACp and a 9mm as a sidearm in the military. But NEVER have I considered a handgun a a primary weapon ... only as a secondary weapon in the case that my primary weapon (an assault rifle or main battle firle) is out of ammunition or has a malfunction. No one with any credible combat experience will consider a handgun to be a primary combat weapon, as they simply lack the stopping power to qualify as one.

Yes, the SF community has been pushing the production of a 6.8mm round for their assult rifles to augment the power of the 5.56mm round. However, the 6.8mm round does not penetrate body armor, especially level 3 -4 plates or the equivalent, in my experience, to justify the interest. Anyone with military or law enforcement combat experience will tell you what they would prefer to have in their hands. It would not be a .45 ACP handgun...

Zig
 
rickson by armbar (sorry I had to)

50mag desert eagle= stick it right to the cougars face and say "break yo self foo" works every time.
 
Guvna said:
A .223 has Three times the power of a .45. It also tumbles. Yes, under VERY certain circumstances it can have "less stopping power" than a .223- on a HUMAN, but that will NEVER be the case with a bear.

I am not doubting the power of any centerfire rifle cartridge vice that fired in a handgun. But the problem is if you are walking in the woods and it isn't hunting season, in most states it is illegal to carry a rifle. So normally I would be carrying a sidearm (for snakes and such).
 
redguru said:
I am not doubting the power of any centerfire rifle cartridge vice that fired in a handgun. But the problem is if you are walking in the woods and it isn't hunting season, in most states it is illegal to carry a rifle. So normally I would be carrying a sidearm (for snakes and such).

You do make a good point there.......

Zig
 
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