Degenerated Discs

[EZ_E]

So I had an MRI in October; 2 degenerated discs. Doc said "it's nothing to lose sleep over, train smart, strengthen your core, and here's a 30 day Naproxen script."

At the end of the 30 days I felt much better.

BUT since leg training has suffered, squats are OUT with the compression of the bar...and that's any variation of a squat (front, overhead) and yesterday just doing hams (lying & seated curls) ended up having me in discomfort all day.

So I am looking for suggestions on leg training around this issue.

 

[stevesmi]

I would see a QUALITY chiropractor in your city bro. don't just listen to 1 doctor, not even sure what kind of doc he is.

any doc who gives you a drug and then springs you loose with 2 disc problems doesn't care about your health!

 

[hardrock]

I can relate. Its been over 3 years since injury and my diagnosis. I had to quit squats and deads for some time. leg press, leg curls, & extensions are your best bet.

Slowly work them back in when ready. Don't be afraid to use the smith either. Go easy tho. Personally everytime I get big ego'd and go too heavy? I end up injuring myself again. Not worth it. Good luck bro.

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[Zyglamail]

Well, naproxin is a bad idea because it gets rid of inflammation which in turn hampers healing. It can also give you a false sense of well being due to lack of pain which may think you can get away with movements you shouldnt do.

As you have likely seen me preach before the key is giving the body the nutrients in needs to facilitate repair. High dose vit C, lysine, proline, chondroiten, boron.

Stop causing additional injury so the body can catch up.

Stop inhibiting healing by using ice/anti-inflamatories.

DO continue to exercise and do things that dont cause pain. in addition to the cardiovascular system the lymph system is used to removed damage tissue and thats facilitated by muscle contraction.

Deep tissue massage can help healing as well by promoting blood flow and circulation. Id caution about seeing a chrio unless he is also well versed in PT and massage. Simple chiros think they can fix everything with an adjustment but many joint injuries are due to laxity which cause a sloppy joint and uneven pressure which in the case of the spin causes bulging discs etc. Continually adjusting can just prolong laxity when what you need is the tendons/ligaments to strengthen and bring everything back in line so uneven load/pressure is resolved and the cartiledge/discs can start to heal with proper nutrients.

Lastly you can put healing into high gear with prolotherapy or one of its variants. Learn more about the process here About Prolotherapy - Comprehensive Prolotherapy with the Dr. Hauser Method and find a doc near you here Prolotherapy Physician Listings | Find Prolotherapy Doctors | GetProlo.com

 

[EZ_E]

I would see a QUALITY chiropractor in your city bro. don't just listen to 1 doctor, not even sure what kind of doc he is.

any doc who gives you a drug and then springs you loose with 2 disc problems doesn't care about your health!

I've been to more chiropractors than I can count....actually my chiropractor is the one who sent me to this orthopedist..

 

[EZ_E]

Well, naproxin is a bad idea because it gets rid of inflammation which in turn hampers healing. It can also give you a false sense of well being due to lack of pain which may think you can get away with movements you shouldnt do.

As you have likely seen me preach before the key is giving the body the nutrients in needs to facilitate repair. High dose vit C, lysine, proline, chondroiten, boron.
Stop causing additional injury so the body can catch up.

Stop inhibiting healing by using ice/anti-inflamatories.

DO continue to exercise and do things that dont cause pain. in addition to the cardiovascular system the lymph system is used to removed damage tissue and thats facilitated by muscle contraction.

Deep tissue massage can help healing as well by promoting blood flow and circulation. Id caution about seeing a chrio unless he is also well versed in PT and massage. Simple chiros think they can fix everything with an adjustment but many joint injuries are due to laxity which cause a sloppy joint and uneven pressure which in the case of the spin causes bulging discs etc. Continually adjusting can just prolong laxity when what you need is the tendons/ligaments to strengthen and bring everything back in line so uneven load/pressure is resolved and the cartiledge/discs can start to heal with proper nutrients.

Lastly you can put healing into high gear with prolotherapy or one of its variants. Learn more about the process here About Prolotherapy - Comprehensive Prolotherapy with the Dr. Hauser Method and find a doc near you here Prolotherapy Physician Listings | Find Prolotherapy Doctors | GetProlo.com

So should I be taking all of these all the time? And I'll check out this link, but y brain is fried right now

 

[dylangemelli]

ive been going through about the identical problem for 13 years bro... I broke my back in a few places and didn't even know it and its still fractured to this day... Chiropractors are the worst thing you can do... PHYSICAL THERAPISTS that MANIPULATE the back are the one thing that actually worked... You have to find the MANIPULATION THERAPIST...

In terms of legs... I can't even put a bar on my neck because of this... You can do walking lunges instead as a form of squats.... Its the best alternative... You can train legs in other ways bro... I get crazy remarks about my calves because of them and to be honest, all my training on them is running and stairclimbing... Granted, its absorbment amounts but you can do other leg exercises besides squats and things of that sort and still have excellent legs... leg extensions, presses, running in the pool, running in general, stairclimbing, bike, stepping, etc.... these all build your legs...

 

[Zyglamail]

So should I be taking all of these all the time? And I'll check out this link, but y brain is fried right now

Yes, those elements are crucial to collagen repair and what most people dont realize is that your arteries are primarily collagen based. Especially among athletes arteries take a beating from increased heart rates due to exercise etc.

Lack of the above nutrients is why cardiovascular disease is the nations #1 killer. Its also why you see so many people who are actually healthy suffer from heart attacks etc.

If you search the net long enough you will find many case studies of people who exercise regularly, eat well, dont smoke or drink in excess who just drop dead.

 

[Mad Jasper]

I have 3 degenerated discs in my lower back (22 year old injury) and 1 in my neck that was discovered last May after a wicked concussion fractured a vertebrae.

I still do squats, deads and pretty much anything else I want to do against the Docs advice. I even sent her a letter and photo of me squatting 225 a few years ago. Never thought I'd get there.

What a lot of docs don't understand or won't admit out of fear of litigation is that squats and deads will build your core strength, relieving compression.

I have to be smart. My max is only 350x5 and likely will not get much better. But, IMO, you need the core strength that only squats and deads can provide.

 

[stevesmi]

like doctors most chiropractors are garbage.. but the one I see has a whole physical therapy lineup of massage therapy, stretching, muscle strengthening, etc. that's why I said you need a GOOD Chiropractor that will use the entire kitchen sink and not adjust you, send you to a doc for a script and call it a day.

the reason your chiro sent you to the ortho was likely because your insurance company will not cover you to go to him for an extended amount of time unless an ortho signs off.. because insurance companies don't consider chiro's real docs.

lets face it a doctor can do 2 things for you. 1. give you drugs.. 2. surgery. that's all their arsenal is.

and also back when I played football I had physical therapy and it was utter crap, they didn't give a shit about me.. it was a joke, zero results. again we go back to what I said you have to find a GOOD practice.. do some digging online and read reviews and such. it makes a huge difference bro who you go to.

I also was lucky enough to find an ortho that is unbelievably good.. he showed me some stretches to use, told me what my weaknesses were that I had to work on and did NOT write me a script for Oxy or some other shit drug. however keep in mind I had to wait 3 hours just to see him!! so you gotta do some digging when it comes to this stuff.. 95% of doctors suck, you gotta find that 5% that are honest and actually know what they are talking about..

I understand everyone hates chiropractors and I do too, they've always just taken my money with zero results.. but if you find the RIGHT ONE you will kiss his feet.

 

[dbacik]

Look Into a reverse hyper. I bought one years ago from westside barbell. I had two herniated disk and a fused l5 -s1 from a motorcycle accident. Doctors said I would never lift again. Let alone squats or deadlift. Fast forward 2 years later with daily use of the reverse hyper. I can squat almost 3x body weight and deadlift 3x body weight. I'm not saying I dont feel pain at times but this helped heal my spine and develop spinal mobility needed for weightlifting. Also work on your hamstring flexibility. They are #1 culprit leading to back injuries and chronic pain. Tight hamstrings constantly pulling on your pelvis pulls your vertebrae out of position. This worked for me and many of my friends and clients.

 

[stevesmi]

inversion tables are great.

 

[hardrock]

inversion tables are great.

But which one? I've been looking at them online for some time. Such a wide range in price.

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[stevesmi]

But which one? I've been looking at them online for some time. Such a wide range in price.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using EliteFitness

I got one off amazon on sale for under $200.. its a starter table as they call it but it does the job just fine for me. once you become a pro using it you can upgrade for a more expensive one. a good friend of mine who used to be WWE depended on it for years to keep him healthy

 

[EZ_E]

like doctors most chiropractors are garbage.. but the one I see has a whole physical therapy lineup of massage therapy, stretching, muscle strengthening, etc. that's why I said you need a GOOD Chiropractor that will use the entire kitchen sink and not adjust you, send you to a doc for a script and call it a day.

the reason your chiro sent you to the ortho was likely because your insurance company will not cover you to go to him for an extended amount of time unless an ortho signs off.. because insurance companies don't consider chiro's real docs.

lets face it a doctor can do 2 things for you. 1. give you drugs.. 2. surgery. that's all their arsenal is.

and also back when I played football I had physical therapy and it was utter crap, they didn't give a shit about me.. it was a joke, zero results. again we go back to what I said you have to find a GOOD practice.. do some digging online and read reviews and such. it makes a huge difference bro who you go to.

I also was lucky enough to find an ortho that is unbelievably good.. he showed me some stretches to use, told me what my weaknesses were that I had to work on and did NOT write me a script for Oxy or some other shit drug. however keep in mind I had to wait 3 hours just to see him!! so you gotta do some digging when it comes to this stuff.. 95% of doctors suck, you gotta find that 5% that are honest and actually know what they are talking about..

I understand everyone hates chiropractors and I do too, they've always just taken my money with zero results.. but if you find the RIGHT ONE you will kiss his feet.

My chiro (who is also a personal friend) does a slew of stretching, massage, muscle work, etc.

He sent me to the ortho because he thought I had an issue with my sacroiliac joint...

And he doesn't take my insurance, I pay him out of pocket every time I go.

Now as far as the ortho I knew the 1st thing he was gonna do was throw pills @ me...which I was against. I am the LAST person to want to go to a doctor.....he said I may need surgery "10-15 years from now"

 

[RADAR]

looks like most of your Q's have been answered
Inversion Tables are excellent, massaging and stretching. Stairclimbing & Biking will build up your legs, my wife rides a stationary bike 30 miles every evening and she has a nice set of legs & ass.
If you want to still do squats you can put a dumbell on each side and do dumbell squats.

 

[stevesmi]

My chiro (who is also a personal friend) does a slew of stretching, massage, muscle work, etc.

He sent me to the ortho because he thought I had an issue with my sacroiliac joint...

And he doesn't take my insurance, I pay him out of pocket every time I go.

Now as far as the ortho I knew the 1st thing he was gonna do was throw pills @ me...which I was against. I am the LAST person to want to go to a doctor.....he said I may need surgery "10-15 years from now"

yeah your main issue is discs can take an awful lot of time to heal up, I would definitely try the inversion table because I know plenty of people with disc problems who the inversion table actually fixed and they were able to lift again.

 

[dirtydeed]

I have 3 degenerated discs in my lower back (22 year old injury) and 1 in my neck that was discovered last May after a wicked concussion fractured a vertebrae.

I still do squats, deads and pretty much anything else I want to do against the Docs advice. I even sent her a letter and photo of me squatting 225 a few years ago. Never thought I'd get there.

What a lot of docs don't understand or won't admit out of fear of litigation is that squats and deads will build your core strength, relieving compression.

I have to be smart. My max is only 350x5 and likely will not get much better. But, IMO, you need the core strength that only squats and deads can provide.

Same here, I have 2 degenerative disks (diagnosed 10years ago and was put on medical restriction of 20lbs) now it's took a long time & I started deadlifting with only the bar but now deads are what keeps me out of pain, would like see there faces if they knew I picked up 415

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[C0LUMB0]

Listen to your body bro, all the treatments and medical professionals aside - trial and error is the best way to see how you can move forward with your leg training. Go light to moderate and see if you can pin point the movements that aggrivate it . I am confined to a chest press machine to work around a tendonitus issue. Took a week or 2 before i found out what i could do.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Chiropractic will only do so much. They tend to suggest it can do more than it can.

My advice -- vertical leg presses followed by high rep squats holding dumbbells. Believe me -- your legs will feel it.

 

[C0LUMB0]

Look Into a reverse hyper. I bought one years ago from westside barbell. I had two herniated disk and a fused l5 -s1 from a motorcycle accident. Doctors said I would never lift again. Let alone squats or deadlift. Fast forward 2 years later with daily use of the reverse hyper. I can squat almost 3x body weight and deadlift 3x body weight. I'm not saying I dont feel pain at times but this helped heal my spine and develop spinal mobility needed for weightlifting. Also work on your hamstring flexibility. They are #1 culprit leading to back injuries and chronic pain. Tight hamstrings constantly pulling on your pelvis pulls your vertebrae out of position. This worked for me and many of my friends and clients.

good post...

hit you with a platinum membership.

 

[zedhed]

Inversion tables are basically all the same. They put you upside down. I got mine from Farm and Fleet for $60.00. Been using it for 8 years now. Also you may wanna try dead lifts with your hips very low. Put your weight over the center of your foot or just a little bit forward of that. These were one of Faraco Columbos favs for quads.
If you do these do look up or even str8 ahead doing them. Keep your neck in line with your back, which should be at about a 45° angle to the ground.
Good luck and keep us posted bro!

 

[Zyglamail]

Im curious, thos with disc issues, do you currently take any calcium(or drink a lot of milk), vit D,A or k supplements?

 

[Bubba77]

Same issue here, actually have had surgery for a ruptured L5/S1. Take it easy and listen to your body. Chiropractor wouldn't hurt and definitely get a second opinion. Only a Neurosurgeon should work on your back if surgery is ever needed. I was back in the gym at 50% about 2 months after my surgery. Be patient and focus in form not weight. Good luck.

 

[EZ_E]

Im curious, thos with disc issues, do you currently take any calcium(or drink a lot of milk), vit D,A or k supplements?

No, I used to OD on supps so now I'm hesitant to pop a lot of pills unless it's really necessary....

Also, since I started this thread I have A) been off the naproxen and B) training and C) haven't been having any discomfort

 

[Zyglamail]

No, I used to OD on supps so now I'm hesitant to pop a lot of pills unless it's really necessary....

Also, since I started this thread I have A) been off the naproxen and B) training and C) haven't been having any discomfort

The reason I asked was because a lot of gym rats think they need a lot more protien than they do so they guzzle protien in milk, sometimes 2-3 glasses a day.

Thats a shitload of calcium, too much actually, and when combined with a shortage of A, D and K it doesnt have the needed cofactors to end up where we want it like teeth and bones and it will often collect in arteries and joints leading to joint deterioration.

Too much D without A and K can also cause similar issues. It can be a real mine field, but even without supplements, people get fairly strict and consume clean food but generally have limited pallets so dont get a huge variety and end up overdoing some stuff from food alone.

 

[EZ_E]

The reason I asked was because a lot of gym rats think they need a lot more protien than they do so they guzzle protien in milk, sometimes 2-3 glasses a day.

Thats a shitload of calcium, too much actually, and when combined with a shortage of A, D and K it doesnt have the needed cofactors to end up where we want it like teeth and bones and it will often collect in arteries and joints leading to joint deterioration.

Too much D without A and K can also cause similar issues. It can be a real mine field, but even without supplements, people get fairly strict and consume clean food but generally have limited pallets so dont get a huge variety and end up overdoing some stuff from food alone.

When I was young & stupid I'd be doing 3 shakes a day.....now I'm old and less stupid....luckily enough I work with a clinical nutritionist