CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

[ariolanine]

You've presented some well thought arguments. But I don't see the necessity of discussing communism and socialism because both have failed miserably every time they have been tried. Every country that has tried has been turned into a fucking dump. In particular please explain this statement.

"Libertarian ideology has gone largely unchallenged in the USA - hence the remarkable prevalence of this thinking among Americans. Ideological premises such as "tax is theft/tax reduces economic growth", "get rid of regulation and the market balances","minmum wage legislation causes unemployment",
"free markets = freedom", and other such opinions - all of which are answered by socialist theory - go predominantly unchallenged at an ideological level in US political debate"

Why is it so remarkable that we believe something that has been proven by our success and the rest of the world's failures. We have the highest standard of living in the world. We have the best schools, the best medicine, etc...I have been to many countries and none have even come close to duplicating America.

 

[HansNZ]

You've presented some well thought arguments. But I don't see the necessity of discussing communism and socialism because both have failed miserably every time they have been tried. Every country that has tried has been turned into a fucking dump.

Communism has certainly failed to be effective long-term. It seems effective when a country is underdeveloped, but after a certain level of development is reached coomunism's short falls become acute. It is better when it is grafted onto a market style system - evolving into a sort of social democratic model. Its function is best served as a moderator and conscience of the capitalist system, as has happened in Western Europe, rather than a replacement for it.

Planning has certainly been proved by East Asian nations to be the most effective way of achieving rapid growth. There is no example of any country developing using a free-market model. Even places like Hong Kong and Macau owe their modern day success to their trade monopolies with China. The USA's growth rate since WW2 has been lower than those of Western Europe with their "evil" socialist systems.

Here in NZ we had a whole lot of right-wing ideologues gain control in the early 1980s who turned NZ towards a extremely free market model. The result was stagnant growth and social decay. We learned very quickly that a mixed economy is the only viable solution.

In particular please explain this statement.
"Libertarian ideology has gone largely unchallenged in the USA - hence the remarkable prevalence of this thinking among Americans. Ideological premises such as "tax is theft/tax reduces economic growth", "get rid of regulation and the market balances","minmum wage legislation causes unemployment",
"free markets = freedom", and other such opinions - all of which are answered by socialist theory - go predominantly unchallenged at an ideological level in US political debate"[/B]

Explain what?

Why is it so remarkable that we believe something that has been proven by our success and the rest of the world's failures. We have the highest standard of living in the world. We have the best schools, the best medicine, etc...I have been to many countries and none have even come close to duplicating America. [/B]

What do you mean the "rest" of the world. Are you implying that the USA is the only country that has succeeded. This is the type of arrogance that Americans are renound for.

You have the third highest GDP per capita which doesn't necessarily translate into standard of living. Your medical system is a perfect example of how little can be delivered to so few for so much money.

Standard of living involves more than just GDP. As mentioned the USA's social statistics are abysmal. Overall the standard of living in the USA is probably around about average for a developed country. Considering you have more resources to work with then that is not particularly impressive.

As for your education and health being "the best" - what a load of crap that is. American schools under perform compared to other Western nations. NZ is WAY ahead in every category.

Your health care system is a marvel of inefficiency. You spend about twice as much as other developed countries for health care delivery that is far from a reflection of the gold plated prices paid for it. In fact the USA comes in at about 30th to 50th in the world in several comparative medical surveys. I often wonder why Americans don't ask themselves this: why it is that if their medical system is so wonderful, the rest of the world isn't running to copy it.

 

[musclebrains]

As for your education and health being "the best" - what a load of crap that is. American schools under perform compared to other Western nations. NZ is WAY ahead in every category.

Your health care system is a marvel of inefficiency. You spend about twice as much as other developed countries for health care delivery that is far from a reflection of the gold plated prices paid for it. In fact the USA comes in at about 30th to 50th in the world in several comparative medical surveys. I often wonder why Americans don't ask themselves this: why it is that if their medical system is so wonderful, the rest of the world isn't running to copy it.

It IS amazing how these myths of American superiority persist in the face of hard empirical evidence to the contrary. There was a famous study in Spain pertinent to this and education a few years ago. The upper class there has long been in the habit of sending its children to American schools -- public schools and the nation's best private schools -- for a superior education.

The study, conducted over years, involved testing these children and random children educated in the "inferior" Spanish public school system. In every category the Spanish-educated kids did better. The biggest difference was in geography, a nice expression of how Americans are actually educated to be ignorant of the rest of the world whereas European-educated children are taught to see themselves as part of a world community.

 

[ariolanine]

How is our standard of living average. We own our own houses and drive giant SUV's. People in Europe live in apartments and drive scooters. Wealthy people from all over the world come to our country for school and medical care. In what way is our medical system inefficient? I get the best care in the world for 30 dollars a month. If I am an example of American arrogance, you are an example of euro ignorance. I know it's hard for former powers to look at the young upstart supercede them, but get used to it. The disparity is only going to increase.

 

[dballer]

How is our standard of living average. We own our own houses and drive giant SUV's. People in Europe live in apartments and drive scooters. Wealthy people from all over the world come to our country for school and medical care. In what way is our medical system inefficient? I get the best care in the world for 30 dollars a month. If I am an example of American arrogance, you are an example of euro ignorance. I know it's hard for former powers to look at the young upstart supercede them, but get used to it. The disparity is only going to increase.

Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it. Here, we have starving people on the streets.. diseases with no cure.. mothers with no income.. and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.

 

[ariolanine]

Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it. Here, we have starving people on the streets.. diseases with no cure.. mothers with no income.. and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.

So there are no scubag homeless in europe? no teenage pregnancies in europe?

 

[dballer]

So there are no scubag homeless in europe? no teenage pregnancies in europe?

I am sure there are... the only diffrence is.. they give those people medical attention.. we do not.. therefore.. those "scumbag" people give us (people like you and I) their scumbag diseases.

 

[Norman Bates]

People in Germany are only homeless if they are to proud to go to the authorities.
You will get a shitty apartment or you will get a place in a homeless shelter, but you will get something.

 

[ariolanine]

I am sure there are... the only diffrence is.. they give those people medical attention.. we do not.. therefore.. those "scumbag" people give us (people like you and I) their scumbag diseases.

You're kidding right? Poor people in this country have free medical care. I know you are going to come back and say that's bullshit but it really isn't. Two of my friends are in the medical field and they see this shit every day. In fact, when you call the cops on a bum for pissing on your car they will bring a paramedic with them to see if he "needs some help." Illegal aliens even have free medical care in this country. That is why Kalifornia is bankrupt. The real reason the system is fucked up is because of excessive litigation. Even so, anyone with intelligence would rather have an operation in America than ANYWHERE else.

 

[atlantabiolab]

Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it.

You are truly joking right? Tell us where the government gets it's money to pay for this medical care. Are they opening up the printing press and giving out cash? Do you not understand that for government to hand out money it must TAKE that money from working individuals?

Here, we have starving people on the streets..

Then they are truly the laziest individuals on earth. Every city has some sort of shelter for homeless and hungry. Are we to go out searching for these individuals and round them up to house and feed them?

diseases with no cure..

If the US can't cure it, no other country can either. Not all diseases have cures, don't ya know?

mothers with no income..

Do you live in the real world? Do you think that Utopia exists? That there is a place where death, hunger and disease are non-existant? This is the fallacy of socialism, that somehow taking money from one person to give to another will cure the ills of the world. That disparity causes suffering.

and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.

And we give billions to all of the programs above. Government is not cutting social spending to give money to another country.