Clomid and its effects on the HPTA

[Nelson Montana]

I'm through explaining this. Already, there are misunderstandings, both in the details and in what I've said, suggested, and recommended.

I can see it being headed for another monkeyfuck.

So,from here on in I'll just refer to this post.http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/another-note-733733.html

Thanks.

 

[Dogfox]

I'm through explaining this. Already, there are misunderstandings, both in the details and in what I've said, suggested, and recommended.

I can see it being headed for another monkeyfuck.

So,from here on in I'll just refer to this post.http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/another-note-733733.html

Thanks.

Alright

 

[C.K.]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but they DONT help with your mood/libido/energy/muscles so what they do stuff like hcgenerate does better what is so hard to understand about that? Clomid/nolva were not designed for pct recovery now stuff like hcgenerate on the other hand was designed specifically for that... If you're intent on using clomid go for it but I'm not all about crying while watching tv and blurry vision lol

 

[Dogfox]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but they DONT help with your mood/libido/energy/muscles so what they do stuff like hcgenerate does better what is so hard to understand about that? Clomid/nolva were not designed for pct recovery now stuff like hcgenerate on the other hand was designed specifically for that...

I understand where your comming from, them not being designed for PCT. But thats also a pretty all encompassing umbrella statement. I mean half the shit we use if not most of it is not original manufactured with the bodybuilder/athlete in mind. Yet it just so happens these things can be used for other applications

if HCGenerate works for you great. But unlike nolva or clomid, which may or may not work for you, it has not been involved in a direct study. IE taking the actual HCGenerate product. I will say however that the OTC supp i use hasnt either and i find that works great - but i dont put it in place of what i know works like HCG, clomid, or nolva. Instead I add it to them. I get along fine with HCG and nolva, and adding in OTC products helps me even more and keeps my test high once ive stopped using them.

If i were to go purely a drug route my test could fall off afterward, similarly if i went completely OTC I could not kickstart my test as much as needed. I mean in the study earlier in the thread the guys test is dramatically increased with 5 days of clomid. So even taking a serm for a very short period, or HCG, exhibits some pretty favourable results. The OTC then help keep those results ie high test.

 

[itsmetical]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but...

This was all I was illustrating to Nelson in the other thread. That is absolutely it.

Without dragging the argument on, he said this was a myth and impossible, even though there were medical studies illustrating a full recovery by the use of clomid.

If his products do a myriad of other things and make you feel good, then that is great, they might be the next best thing. Never said they weren't.

But to outright refute documented science makes no sense at all, especially when discussing a subject as critical as this.

I know you read the study C.K., do you believe it is a myth? Do you believe it is not possible and the University of Texas just publishes whatever they feel like?

link: www ncbi nlm nih gov/pubmed/12524089

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5.
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

 

[itsmetical]

I'll be the first to admit, the thread got out of control, and I was definitely a contributing factor. But I called Nelson's bluff and he was unwilling to stand by his word.

When approaching the use of anabolics, a lot of us rely on documented science as a primer to anything we start. It is frustrating to constantly be told by some guy on the internet that studies done by professional doctors and universities, published in medical journals are bogus simply because he's spoken with Dan Duchane or Lou Ferrigno or whoever and they say otherwise.

Experience has no bearing on the practicality of science. The efficacy of a drug is determined by the change in markers that were hypothesized to be affected (in the case of clomid, T, LH, FSH).

 

[C.K.]

to each their own right and sometimes what works for someone isn't gonna work for another I did recover when using nolva+clomid but I also crashed hard and felt like crap while on it sex drive was pretty blah and I lost pretty much everything coming off cycle too that's not the case now however.. One of my fave pct supplements was novadex-xt (which is now banned btw nothing gave me plump balls and morning wood like it did) everyone on here talked crap about it but ofcourse never used it and there are threads on other forums of guys posting bloods on it with test levels over 1000 but I don't argue about it and try to push it on other people I just stocked up before it was banned hehe all I'm saying is find what works for you and stick with it there is no "all in all pct" everyone knows what works for them or what they want to believe in and mixs and matches as long as we are all recovering and keeping gains there should be no debate

 

[itsmetical]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Please read the result and conclusion of the study below. It clearly spells out for you that this patients T levels were restored.

I know you're going to say, "restored to what" but again, I think it is safe to assume that the patients levels were restored from close to nothing, to something within the "normal" range.

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

You of all people know this will never happen. Universities are not going to spend millions of dollars studying post cycle therapy for steroid users. At best we are lucky to have a handful of studies illustrating the effectiveness of clomid on reintroducing GnRH output. However, this particular study was done on a steroid user for the exact purpose of recovery.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

Actually, this study was done on a man suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

This treatment lasted 2 months.

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

The study explains that the man recovered. In other words, his test levels remained elevated. It's right there in your face. If his number was 70 at the start, and 400 after the therapy, you would be like "oh that isn't high enough he did not recover." In reality, most men DON'T have testosterone at the upper quadrant of the range. That is why there are ranges.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Why and how could these numbers be represented incorrectly? There was a clear objective to the study, done by trained professionals associated with a medical university that has published hundreds of studies in other fields of medicine. If something was flawed, the study would have never made it into this medical journal.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

Maybe that is why you have such an aggressive stance against it. Because it didn't work for YOU.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

That is fine. If your product is a better alternative, then everyone should use them. However, the argument got out of hand because you insisted that the effectiveness of clomid was a myth and could not raise T. Even when there are plenty of studies that show it can.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

link: www ncbi nlm nih gov/pubmed/12524089

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5.
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

 

[itsmetical]

I've paid for and attached the full study for everyone to read.

The most important line of the study, illustrating a relapse (however still much higher than baseline) from too short of a duration of use, followed by a complete recovery after the appropriate duration of use:


In our case, the
reestablishment of eugonadal status was achieved with just a
short challenge of clomiphene citrate 100 mg over 2 weeks,
but the patient relapsed. He needed a longer course of 2
months of clomiphene citrate to maintain eugonadal status.

There is a nice graph in there illustrating the patients levels before and after cessation of clomid. Recovered and maintained levels of T appear to be in the high 600s, clearly illustrating a successful recovery in this case.

Has anyone else here spent $40 for the members of this board lately? Yet I was still banned for getting into an argument when all I was doing was trying to help and presenting evidence of my claims. Is this fair?

 

[Dogfox]

I've paid for and attached the full study for everyone to read.

The most important line of the study, illustrating a relapse (however still much higher than baseline) from too short of a duration of use, followed by a complete recovery after the appropriate duration of use:


In our case, the
reestablishment of eugonadal status was achieved with just a
short challenge of clomiphene citrate 100 mg over 2 weeks,
but the patient relapsed. He needed a longer course of 2
months of clomiphene citrate to maintain eugonadal status.

There is a nice graph in there illustrating the patients levels before and after cessation of clomid. Recovered and maintained levels of T appear to be in the high 600s, clearly illustrating a successful recovery in this case.

Has anyone else here spent $40 for the members of this board lately? Yet I was still banned for getting into an argument when all I was doing was trying to help and presenting evidence of my claims. Is this fair?

why the f**k did you buy it??? lol, theres a link for it at the bottom of the abstract for free. I summed up the article in the OP. But thanks for re clarifying.