Clomid and its effects on the HPTA

[skaman007]

clomid, nolvadex and hcg is what I use for my PCT. However after my PCT which ends in a couple of days i will be trying this phytoserms-347 and log it...hopefully this will be a great addition to my pct.

why do you use both clomid and nolva together?

 

[Nelson Montana]

This is for the recent ramblings of a deceased thread in which things got a bit heated.

To all partys:

if you read study his test was 71ng/dl, he then did 5 days of clomid @ 100mgs and followed up 2 weeks later and had 828ng/dl. 2 months later he returned for another follow up and had 301 ng/dl. Then he did 2 more months of clomid. After those 2 months he was at 705ng/dl. Then, going from the graph he had a month where his levels slowly dropped (much less rapidly than before) and his test was around the mid 600s. It appears as if he would have normalized at around 4-500ng/dl after a few more months, of course we cannot be sure but the drop off rate was not very fast.

So basically this guy was pretty much saved from a womens test levels, close to them at least, by clomid. At the time of his clomid ingesting he also took anti depressants, which may or may not have negatively effected his T levels. It is also interesting to note, and this is for Nelson mainly, that according to wiki (sourced twiced) "the single isomer of clomiphine "enclomiphene" under the brand name Androxal is currently under phase 2 trials for use in men" as an alternative to TRT. There are a few other studies citing clomid as effective in restoring Sertoli cell function and reversing isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. For those of you unfamiliar with Sertoli cells they contain FSH receptors and are involved in the maturation of sperm cells.

Would have been nice to have seen an actual discussion on the whole thing rather than a heated debate.

feel free to discuss.

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

 

[RADAR]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument. Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

agree with nelson, tried this on another forum and got the same thing,let them have their freaking clomid ,nova

 

[mr.sagat]

Nelson is right there is no way that clomid will keep you elevated after use, that is crazy. If that was true I'd be doing cycles of clomid and not test. I do love my nolvadex but will be the first person to tell you that it is hepatoxic, and long term use has been linked to increased chances of cancer.....

 

[rappert]

nothing keeps you elevated for any considerable period of time after cessation of use, correct?

 

[Nelson Montana]

nothing keeps you elevated for any considerable period of time after cessation of use, correct?

Yes -- your own body. That's why you need to recover your natural levels. As long as you use a drug, you're dependent on that drug.

For a quick post I recommend using HCG, but that too doesn't cure anything. It just gives a jump start to recovery. If that's all Clomid does, why bother with all the sides? Just use HCG. But at some point you still need to produce T on your own.

UNLEASHED can be used indefinitely. Some guys never come off. I'm one of them. That extra bit of free T makes a difference, so why not use it?

 

[rappert]

Yes -- your own body. That's why you need to recover your natural levels. As long as you use a drug, you're dependent on that drug.

gotcha..i meant above what your body can produce on its own.

 

[Dogfox]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where?
If you look at the graph on the study you shall see that there is a 1 month period after he stopped taking clomid
They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated.
Altho this has some truth to it the same is also true for every OTC product, infact many of them have no direct studies showing reversal of hypogonadism ]
Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.
Clomid itself is not a trt, but an isolated isomer has been considered due to clomids promising results on patients, i would imagine the idea of the single isomer is to reduce the toxicity and make it more available to everyone. INteresting to note that its isomer has made it as far as SARMS S4 did in clinical trials. And to my knowledge those trials are continuing

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.
Understood. I was merely posting up the studies results as clearly many in the other thread had not read it as the OP posted merely a link to an abstract

 

[Nelson Montana]

Not quite accurate. It said "after one month, T was normalized." Well, what's normal? 300 ngs? It could actually have been lowered, but show up "normal."

Secondly, I never said supplements "cured" hypogonadalism. But they can be used indefinitely (I believe this is the 4th time I've said that). And they help while the body is in recovery. Drugs do not. They cause a dependance. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

 

[Dogfox]

Not quite accurate. It said "after one month, T was normalized." Well, what's normal? 300 ngs? It could actually have been lowered, but show up "normal."

Secondly, I never said supplements "cured" hypogonadalism. But they can be used indefinitely (I believe this is the 4th time I've said that). And they help while the body is in recovery. Drugs do not. They cause a dependance. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

On the graph his test is in the mid 600s after 1 month of no clomid. Considering his starting point id say 300 would be good.

I understand your second point, however I will add that the first few weeks i find a lose dose nolva really ramps up my test. And the OTC products help maintain that. But what I do not agree with is completely not using HCG or any kind of HPTA stimulant and then using purely OTC products. Clearly nolva and clomid along with HCG work at increasing T, why would you not run a low dose of whichever one you tolerated best and run the OTC supps along side and after to maintain it. To go completely one way or the other, either drug or OTC is not the best route.
Again I am not advocating sole use of a serm as a pct, instead that if you can tolerate a low dose after your cycle why not add it in.