This is for the recent ramblings of a deceased thread in which things got a bit heated.
To all partys:
if you read study his test was 71ng/dl, he then did 5 days of clomid @ 100mgs and followed up 2 weeks later and had 828ng/dl. 2 months later he returned for another follow up and had 301 ng/dl. Then he did 2 more months of clomid. After those 2 months he was at 705ng/dl. Then, going from the graph he had a month where his levels slowly dropped (much less rapidly than before) and his test was around the mid 600s. It appears as if he would have normalized at around 4-500ng/dl after a few more months, of course we cannot be sure but the drop off rate was not very fast.
So basically this guy was pretty much saved from a womens test levels, close to them at least, by clomid. At the time of his clomid ingesting he also took anti depressants, which may or may not have negatively effected his T levels. It is also interesting to note, and this is for Nelson mainly, that according to wiki (sourced twiced) "the single isomer of clomiphine "enclomiphene" under the brand name Androxal is currently under phase 2 trials for use in men" as an alternative to TRT. There are a few other studies citing clomid as effective in restoring Sertoli cell function and reversing isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. For those of you unfamiliar with Sertoli cells they contain FSH receptors and are involved in the maturation of sperm cells.
Would have been nice to have seen an actual discussion on the whole thing rather than a heated debate.
feel free to discuss.
Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.
Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.
So here goes my simplified explanation.
First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)
Okay, a few quick points...
Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.
What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.
The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?
You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.
Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.
Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.
As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.
Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.
AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.
Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.
And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.