Best Drink To Pack On Solid Mass

[Silent Method]

I apologize if again this seems personal; of course it is not. The fact is, I could certainly be wrong.

But think about this: If those of us who believe this data are in the wrong, then so are the vast majority of current top athletic coaches for swimming, cycling, and running.


So what some of us are wondering is this:

What are the SPECIFIC reasons that you do NOT believe that these data are correct?

Have you been able to observe and document a series of events that contradict these findings? And if so, why don't I have any of your articles in my vault of studies, and why, when I search on the net for relevant studies in these fields, does your name never appear?

I've tried this route. You will not get a reply that is congruent to the parameters of your inquiry.



If one does not have a concept of physiological exersise resopnse patterns, how could they comment on the effect of given variables on those patterns?

I'd like to say that the answer would be that the party ignorant of the specific concept would learn as the dialogue evolves, process new the information, and weigh it against the knowledge that they do have. From there they can judge the validity of the concept (exercise response) as well as the effect of given variables (nutrients, timing, etc.) in relation to that concept.

However, when such party has already made up his or her mind against the validity of the effects of variables on a concept with which they are not even familiar, they simply cannot provide rational argument.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Funken: Now, that's a good answer.

I didn't want to come off like I blaming you. I know you always offer solid evidence to back up you opinions. It was more directed to people who dont even bother reading or understanding the information and just use it ammunition.

I understand what you're saying about the last set but I still maintain it isn't a very accurate gauge. It's like the HIT one set to failure concept. Well, what is failure? If you can do another set one minute later are you REALLY exausted? It's too hard to say for certain.

You said the meaningful thing mentioned in this entire thread. (And Silent Method should take note) You said the evidence suggests that it PROBABLY increases the chance of muscle growth. You are so right! All I'M saying is that I believe from my experiences and observations that it PROBABLY isn't that much of a difference.

And for this, we have hundreds of nasty posts. How ridiculous.

Also (and this is important), why do coaches enploy these methods with cyclists and swimmers and runners? BECAUSE THEY ARE ENDURENCE ATHLETES WHO MUST DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE. I would do the same exact thing if I were training a swimmer or a cyclists.

But that has NOTHING to do with muscle growth!!!

I think we're finally in agreement here .

One last thing. Not every observation is documented on the net. I'll bet you can't find an single references on the net that an apple is red. But it is. The same goes with this. My experience, both personal and with clients and from speaking with athletes of all levels (which is extensive) tells me, that a high GI post workout as opposed to a low GI carb, fifteen minutes after or 25 minutes after , shows no discernable difference in MUSCLE GROWTH. This is the point of contention that Silent could not comprehend, but instead he chose to harp on it and harp on it. I'm willing accept that he doesn't get it and move on, but he insists on trying to make me out as incompetant and that pisses me off. I know it shouldn't because e's just a jerk, but I have a little too much pride somethimes.

Thank you Funkenshredded for bringing everything into a clearer light.

 

[Spidey]

Wow Nelson, you are unbelievable. You must have blown right past my last post. I don't know how anyone can make the case any more plainly.

Several of those references in SM's post even refer to anabolism or muscle growth as a function of carb intake right in the title. They are not all about REPLENISHING GLYCOGEN as you have repeatedly claimed. THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT YOU REQUESTED.

I am truly at a loss here. Is your ego really that big that you simply are incapable of admitting when you are wrong? Even when it is painfully obvious to everyone else?

 

[genarr3]

Wow. If you read this carefully it seems Nelson and Fukkenshredded are almost in agreement. What I think Nelson is trying to point out that it isn't necessary to start a stopwatch the instant you rack the bar after your last set of Squats. In the long run it really isn't going to make much of a difference. What we do is a marathon of years, not a single day. Olympic level athletes base their whole lives on a single day's performance. The smallest measurable improvement could make the difference between being a hero or an also ran. For the vast majority of weight trainers, whatever their reasons for doing it, timing nutrition intake to the last second isn't needed. Try doing that for a few years and see how old it will get. I used to be very anal about when I ate what, but the past few years I've drifted away from that, not completely, but I don't stress about it anymore. It hasn't made any noticeable difference. Maybe I'd have an extra pound of muscle, but I prefer my sanity.

 

[Silent Method]

I understand what you're saying about the last set but I still maintain it isn't a very accurate gauge. It's like the HIT one set to failure concept. Well, what is failure? If you can do another set one minute later are you REALLY exausted? It's too hard to say for certain.

This is certainly a better notion then those you had posted before. However, you're still a bit cloudy.

Look, these are some principles of exercise physiology we must understand:

*Exercise is a single acute bout of physical exertion requiring energy expenditure beyond regular daily physical activity. (For athletes, the intensity of energy expenditure during exercise is significantly elevated and exercise session are highly structured - making actual "exercise" bouts easy to identify.)

*Exercise disrupts the dynamic equilibruim of the body. These homeostatic disruptions are cumulatively the body's exercise response.

*In large part, exercise response patterns can be gauged. If they could not be, the body would make no differentiation in function between exercise and non-exercise - there would not be exercise physiology.


Now, what are we trying to gauge? You brought up the notion of the "un-gaugeable" interval between exercise and post-exercise in specific regard to glycogen resynthesis a couple pages back. Lets roll with that.

One answer is simple: Glycogen synthase. The level of the very enzyme responsible for glycogen resynthesis is floating around in enormous quantities during that 15 minute post-exercise window (and in lesser but still abnormally high abundance up to an hour after exercise).



OK, enough from the glycogen replenishment aspect - how does this relate to muscle growth? Again, analyze exercise response. Read what has already been posted in this thread. In the most simple terms I can muster: Exercise -> catabolism + 4:1 high GI/high BV protein -> anabolism.

You said the meaningful thing mentioned in this entire thread. (And Silent Method should take note) You said the evidence suggests that it PROBABLY increases the chance of muscle growth. You are so right! All I'M saying is that I believe from my experiences and observations that it PROBABLY isn't that much of a difference.

This is fine. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with much of the nonsense you had put forth in argument before getting to this point.

Also (and this is important), why do coaches enploy these methods with cyclists and swimmers and runners? BECAUSE THEY ARE ENDURENCE ATHLETES WHO MUST DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE. I would do the same exact thing if I were training a swimmer or a cyclists.

From the glycogen resynthesis perspective you keep coming back to you are largely correct in this point. Read what I have already posted on this thread – way back. After a bout of anaerobic exercise such as a weight training session, the body needs very little help in regard to glycogen resynthesis. (In terms of glycogen replenishment, high GI carbs shine following aerobic, higher duration exercise.)

But that has NOTHING to do with muscle growth!!!

I think we're finally in agreement here .

One last thing. Not every observation is documented on the net. I'll bet you can't find an single references on the net that an apple is red. But it is. The same goes with this. My experience, both personal and with clients and from speaking with athletes of all levels (which is extensive) tells me, that a high GI post workout as opposed to a low GI carb, fifteen minutes after or 25 minutes after , shows no discernable difference in MUSCLE GROWTH. This is the point of contention that Silent could not comprehend, but instead he chose to harp on it and harp on it. I'm willing accept that he doesn't get it and move on, but he insists on trying to make me out as incompetant and that pisses me off. I know it shouldn't because e's just a jerk, but I have a little too much pride somethimes.

Again, you are limiting yourself to concerns of glycogen. The concept of anabolic drive is quite real. Any athlete knows this – and for bodybuilders it is an obsession. The post-exercise recovery shake I have recommended in this thread WILL catapult an athlete from a catabolic post-exercise state to a strong anabolic state. This has everything to do with muscle growth.

Now, if you wish to debate the degree to which this will actually affect muscle growth, fine. As a piece of the “anabolic” puzzle, I believe it will yield a significant advantage over time. Men like Dr. Michael Colgan, the world’s premier authority on sports nutrition, believe it and have measured it. The elite athletes they train have seen it for themselves.

Nelson, what kind of clients have you tried the 4:1 High GI carb/High BV protein shake with? Did you have a control group with similar stats training and eating in otherwise identical ways? For how many months were they engaged in the systematic testing of the proposed recovery meal? How about years? Places like the Colgan Institute track this stuff. They, and others, say it works.



Playing off of genarr's post, I readily concede that precise, stopwatch timing of the post-recovery meal is quite unnecessary. The recovery meal is not rocket science. Following exercise the body is in a state ripe for the utilization of the nutrients. With time, normal equilibrium returns and the introduction of the recovery meal is less adventageous.

Like you said - what we do is a marathon of years, not a single day. This is exactly what the post-exercise recovery shake fits so well with us. It's easy as hell for most of us to utilize, made correctly it tastes good, and, over the course of time, it works!

 

[Fonz]

Wow Nelson, you are unbelievable. You must have blown right past my last post. I don't know how anyone can make the case any more plainly.

Several of those references in SM's post even refer to anabolism or muscle growth as a function of carb intake right in the title. They are not all about REPLENISHING GLYCOGEN as you have repeatedly claimed. THEY ARE EXACTLY WHAT YOU REQUESTED.

I am truly at a loss here. Is your ego really that big that you simply are incapable of admitting when you are wrong? Even when it is painfully obvious to everyone else?

I think this post has revealed what kind of a person Nelson is.

In my 4 years here, I don't think I have seen more than a dozen posts with such a huge amount of information sources posted.

Yet, he still does not give credit where credit is due, because he just can't stand the fact his assumptions where flat-out wrong.

Fact is Silent Method, you, and Fukkenshredded backed every single one of your points up. Quite well IMO btw.

Yet Nelson chooses to ignore this like usual.

Just ignore him. Not worth debating with him. He accuses people of acting like children...yet take a look at his antics in this post.

Talk about irony of ironies.

Heck, I learnt a lot from the sources posted on this thread (As hopefully everybody did as well).

Good job guys. Definately saving this one.

Fonz

 

[Citruscide]

Fuck all you guys that try to Shit on NELSON!
you are just jelous because he makes money and you don't.... is like Puffy Daddy said, "the more money we come around the more problems we see"... \

Did you just site Puff Daddy on the Anabolic board?!?! LOL -- Banned.

C-ditty

 

[Citruscide]

you guys are just hating on me because you probaly got scamed by the supplement f*ckers, since you couldn't afford to buy nelson's book and you are not platnium. Yeah i have a lot of Karma because I give the Bros a lot of good advice.

Let me get this straight... in one post you have gotten in the weightlifting scene 3 weeks ago... and now, you are giving all the bros good advice? What good advice is that!?!? I haven't even seen any of your posts? 500 of them come from your plat membership and God knows where your other 200+ come from??

I smell a bad karma hit coming on!!

C-ditty

 

[Fukkenshredded]

Actually I am in complete agreement with Nelson in one regard, and that is the issue of real world practicality.

I find that Nelson's thinking tends to be geared toward what will actually be implemented, not what might yield the extra 1/8 pound of muscle in six months.

Now, we have differing ideas about many little points (and maybe one big one where protien degredation is concerned), but I have to admit that I do not actually implement the procedures that I profess to agree with, mainly because I am not a professional athlete or bodybuilder.

In fact, I am a pretty skinny guy who doesn't look at all like a bodybuilder, although I am in fairly good shape.

Interestingly, I find myself wondering if the small differences yielded by some of the protocol I have suggested are overshadowed simply by using steroids...

In any event, I do think that Nelson gives pretty good insight as far as real world training is concerned, and I think that his general question of 'is it worth the effort' for some of the small particulars is definitely valid.

I would venture a guess that our actual training is very similar, with the exception of the windsprint routines that I do in the summers.

 

[Silent Method]

Another good post Fukkenshredded. Lots of good points.

As I have stated in regard to the recovery meal I support in this thread, can an athletes gaols be reached without it? Sure. Could it help? Sure.

No weight trainer must have it. The average trainer will not realize much advantage from it in comparison to their normal diet. The average individual will demand that "advantage" be defined as entire pounds gained in weeks or days along with immediate inches on their arms.


However, does it have it's place in the athletes tool box? Can a "real world" amature athlete see some advantage from the recovery drink over time? Of course.

For those of us who are athletes with athletic goals, life is a constant balancing act. There are things we do which hinder adaptation, things we do which enable adaptation, and things we do with no net effect. For myself and many others, a post-exercise recovery meal is part of the positive, adaptation enabling equation.

 

[MrTrap]

You can conclude I didn't know what I was doing, but in truth I knew quite a bit. I believe what my "before" pics show is just how much of a hardgainer I was. So , you're wrong.

No, at the time of your before pics you didn't know diddly. And by your own words:

"The start of a new approach. (Please forgive the underwear.) At this point, many of the "experts" with whom I'd been in contact (trainers, doctors, coaches, authors, athletes, etc.) informed me that at the age of 38, muscle growth of any consequence is damn near impossible, even for someone with better than average genetics, no less someone who could never put on muscle. Testosterone levels drop, Growth Hormone levels are lower. The metabolism gets sluggish and fat is more readily stored. Bones, tendons and ligaments are more brittle which result in a far greater chance for injury. The recuperation process is slower and longer. It all sucks. Still, I concluded that the experts had it wrong. I innately came to conclusions which were in direct opposition to what we've all been told, starting with diet. I had a few crazy theories about training rummaging through my head as well so I decided to ignore the advice of the experts and follow what my instincts were telling me. What did I have to lose?"

In your own words, you didn't know what worked up until age 38. Then you decided to TRY something else. Good for you, but until you proved it worked for you, you didn't know even that.

So, you're wrong.

 

[jubei]

Mr. Trap of course he didn't know anything, I don't know who he thinks he's fooling with those 20 years of "experience". If He claimed to be an expert on mullets, well thats one thing.

Nobody who thinks of themself as a BB guru would choose to have less muscle than leonardo dicaprio going through withdrawl in basketball diaries, especially after 20 years of serious training. Give it up, you can' t win with Nelson.

 

[Nelson Montana]

No, at the time of your before pics you didn't know diddly. And by your own words:

"The start of a new approach. (Please forgive the underwear.) At this point, many of the "experts" with whom I'd been in contact (trainers, doctors, coaches, authors, athletes, etc.) informed me that at the age of 38, muscle growth of any consequence is damn near impossible, even for someone with better than average genetics, no less someone who could never put on muscle. Testosterone levels drop, Growth Hormone levels are lower. The metabolism gets sluggish and fat is more readily stored. Bones, tendons and ligaments are more brittle which result in a far greater chance for injury. The recuperation process is slower and longer. It all sucks. Still, I concluded that the experts had it wrong. I innately came to conclusions which were in direct opposition to what we've all been told, starting with diet. I had a few crazy theories about training rummaging through my head as well so I decided to ignore the advice of the experts and follow what my instincts were telling me. What did I have to lose?"

In your own words, you didn't know what worked up until age 38. Then you decided to TRY something else. Good for you, but until you proved it worked for you, you didn't know even that.

So, you're wrong.

What?

No, what I'm saying there is that the standard information, such as that found in magazines, journals, personal training mauals et al, are not entirely accurate. And for the hard gainer, much of the informaton isn't pretty bad. i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts.
Do you understand now or are you just not willing to let this go?

This pathetic attempt to disparage me is an embarassment to this board. I don't think sugar is all that important after a work out and I'm a horible person. I had a mullet hair cut in 1988 (along with fifty billion other guys), so I don't know anything about exercise. I don't believe in high dosages so I don't have the right to talk about cycles. It's so unbelievably lame. I mean, I expect it from some, like jubel, he's just an idiot. But when is enough, enough?

 

[jubei]

Learn to spell you goofy looking bastard. J-U-B-E-I.

 

[Silent Method]

i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts.

I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?

 

[THEEGAME2544]

One last thing. Not every observation is documented on the net. I'll bet you can't find an single references on the net that an apple is red. But it is.

Ah, but some would argue that an apple is not red......that infact it had no color at all

 

[MrTrap]

No, what I'm saying there is that the standard information, such as that found in magazines, journals, personal training mauals et al, are not entirely accurate. And for the hard gainer, much of the informaton isn't pretty bad.

I believe you knew some stuff that didn't work. But it is obvious from your pics at 38 you didn't (then) know what DID work - including for calves and abs. Your pics don't say "hardgainer" they say "here's a guy who still hasn't figured out the mags are bullshit."

That doesn't say anything about how much you know now, but don't expect us to believe that you were, at 145 and not knowing what to do, training other people and getting results, or playing any important role. You were just another gym rat who hadn't figured out how to train and eat.

 

[jubei]

I can't think of a more perfect ending to this thread -- it really sums up the intelligence of the people who have been my detractors. This guy makes a pathetic attempt at putting me down by attacking the fact that I spelled his stupid name wrong.

AND THEN HE SPELLS HIS OWN NAME WRONG!


BTW: I spelled it right.


I think that says it all.

This is a perfect example of idiot nelson thinking he's right. Look at my name and then my post. My handle is not jubel, its jubei.

BTW: You really are a dumb shit.

I think that says it all.

 

[jubei]

No wonder everyone hates your guts...you are a complete moron. You always think you're right even to the point that you don't bother to check your information. Damn you don't know how to train, or how to write...what can you do?

 

[Nelson Montana]

HA! This is what jubby is so upset over -- the fact that I spelled his stupid name wrong. It looks like an "L" on my screen. Big fucking deal. You're still an idiot.

I especially like the fact that you call me "goofy looking" I'M SO HURT! I guess you should call the modeling agencies I've worked for and soap operas that hire me and tell them that. I'm sure they're anxious to hear your opinion.

I don't know how to train, yet, even though I have terrible genetics, I placed in the NPC championships. I can't write yet I've had hundreds of articles published. Man, it's a good thing you're around to let all the people who have succeeded know that they're wrong. Let it go loser.



Silent; Suddenly you're curious to hear my methods? Let's just say that it's doubtful you'll find tha ab exercise anywhere else. Considereing the fact that there are hundreds of ab articles every year, that's saying something. Do a search . Dozens of people on this board have gotten great results from the calve routine, but what does it matter? You already know everything and I know nothing. Remember?

It's obvious that this thread is about as meaningless as anything I can imagine. Some of you may have noticed I haven't posted anywhere else. This has given me a perspective of how pointless it all is. Now, I'm just looking for some closure. But as long as people want to take swipes at me, I'm going to keep coming back and showing them what morons they are. It's a game. Now that it's started I'll keep going until it ends. Maybe we'll break some sort of a record. "The longest flame war ever!" When it dies, I'll be done. So it's up to you-- the jerk-offs who insist on keeping this going. Let it go, and so will I. Keep it going, and I'll keep it going right back.

 

[jubei]

As usual you missed the point numb nuts. The point was that you always assume you are right and everyone else is an idiot. Funny how the trend of nelson being wrong continues. I mean, you don't even bother to check your information.

 

[jubei]

Hey did you just delete that post....hahahahaha you're such a fuck up buddy. It was as you said the perfect ending to this thread though. If it didn't matter at all why did you delete the post? LOL, hide the evidence.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Checked a couple of times and then said, "maybe it is an "i", so I deleted it, but it didnt go through the first time.
So this is what we're argueing about? Do you have a job? Why are you on this board all day long? I work at home in the days so I can jump over here in one second and keep up with this nonsense.

Everythime I think this thread gets dumber, I'm proven wrong. But as I said, it's just a game to me now. Someody should lock it or t'll continue forever, or I'll have the last word. Pick one. Ridiculous? You betcha. But the funny thing is, I see that hundreds of people click on this thread each day, so as far as I'm concerned, we're putting on a show. Give the people what they want! Plus, now it's a statement of sorts. It's made me realize that this is a colossal waste of time and my help, although appreciated by some, will just be resented by all the nobodies with big mouths.

 

[Silent Method]

Silent; Suddenly you're curious to hear my methods? Let's just say that it's doubtful you'll find tha ab exercise anywhere else. Considereing the fact that there are hundreds of ab articles every year, that's saying something. Do a search . Dozens of people on this board have gotten great results from the calve routine, but what does it matter? You already know everything and I know nothing. Remember

Ease up there big boy. First, I'm always curious to see different methods.


Regardless, that is not what I asked. You sated "i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts."

I asked, I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?

 

[Silent Method]

It's obvious that this thread is about as meaningless as anything I can imagine. Some of you may have noticed I haven't posted anywhere else. This has given me a perspective of how pointless it all is. Now, I'm just looking for some closure. But as long as people want to take swipes at me, I'm going to keep coming back and showing them what morons they are. It's a game. Now that it's started I'll keep going until it ends. Maybe we'll break some sort of a record. "The longest flame war ever!" When it dies, I'll be done. So it's up to you-- the jerk-offs who insist on keeping this going. Let it go, and so will I. Keep it going, and I'll keep it going right back.
>
>
Everythime I think this thread gets dumber, I'm proven wrong. But as I said, it's just a game to me now. Someody should lock it or t'll continue forever, or I'll have the last word. Pick one. Ridiculous? You betcha. But the funny thing is, I see that hundreds of people click on this thread each day, so as far as I'm concerned, we're putting on a show. Give the people what they want! Plus, now it's a statement of sorts. It's made me realize that this is a colossal waste of time and my help, although appreciated by some, will just be resented by all the nobodies with big mouths.

Obsess Much?

 

[sk*]

... but but but but they are bullying me mommy.

-sk

 

[Nelson Montana]

Obsess Much?

Nah... like I said, it's a game. I think it's hilareous that people can get so pissed over nothing, so this is my way of annoying them further.


What's a "new" discovery? Something that hasn't been done before, hence the term "new" and "discovery."


You see, someone like jubeI isn't a nobody because of his profession. (if he has one) I think any honest work is noble. To me, a "nobody" is someone who contributes nothing, yet is inclined to tear down what others have built. It's no differenct from the guy who spray paints graffitti or the kid who pulls out a set of keys and scratches a strangers car door. It accomplishes nothing. But they do it because they want to destroy. They hate the fact that others have accomplished more and in their pitiful sick minds they think that they are suprior if they destroy what they can't get. In some cases they are "ring leaders" of a group of bullies and these are the people that tend to be the most egomanial. (i.e.Charles Manson). In other cases, they're just lost souls yearing to be heard. It's a fascinating psychological study -- which is why I'm still here doing this. I admit, it's absurd. But..in for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[Spidey]

Nah... like I said, it's a game. I think it's hilareous that people can get so pissed over nothing, so this is my way of annoying them further.


What's a "new" discovery? Something that hasn't been done before, hence the term "new" and "discovery."


You see, someone like jubeI isn't a nobody because of his profession. (if he has one) I think any honest work is noble. To me, a "nobody" is someone who contributes nothing, yet is inclined to tear down what others have built. It's no differenct from the guy who spray paints graffitti or the kid who pulls out a set of keys and scratches a strangers car door. It accomplishes nothing. But they do it because they want to destroy. They hate the fact that others have accomplished more and in their pitiful sick minds they think that they are suprior if they destroy what they can't get. In some cases they are "ring leaders" of a group of bullies and these are the people that tend to be the most egomanial. (i.e.Charles Manson). In other cases, they're just lost souls yearing to be heard. It's a fascinating psychological study -- which is why I'm still here doing this. I admit, it's absurd. But..in for a penny, in for a pound.

LOL, did you just compare Jubei to Charles Manson???? ROFLMAO.

 

[Nelson Montana]

LOL, did you just compare Jubei to Charles Manson???? ROFLMAO.

Nah, jub isn't a ring leader. He's a minion.
The Charles Manson analogy was that there are people who are stupid, yet aggresive. And since they're slightly less stupid than the people willing to follow them, they become the "lead dog" -- as was the case with Manson. There are people here (who I would not compare to Manson ) who are stupid, yet aggressive and people who are even more stupid will follow them.

 

[R77M]

I just spent the last 45 minutes reading through this post. Aside from all the flaming there is alot of great information. I have read alot of Nelson's posts and find some of his theories very interesting. However, I really have to agree with Silent Method on this one. By no means am I flaming or attacking Nelson's credibility, but the following seems true:

Silent Method's statement was a post-workout drink high in carbs would increase the muscle growth.

Nelson's statement was it will not increase muscle growth any more than a regular meal anytime of the day.

In laymans (sp.) terms, according to Silent Method, high carbs increase insulin which, in turn, increases protien uptake in the muscles. At the same time catabolic effects are reduced. It would seem that post work-out reduction of catabolic effects alone would contribute to increased muscle growth, but the addition of protien uptake creates an environement in which inceased muscle growth is almost assured.

As to the time frame. Does it not make sense that your body is depleated of energy (calories) upon completion of a workout. And the sooner you provide rapid energy (calories) the better, so the body will consume the calories you provide and not your reserves, primarily muscle tissue. Thus the anti-catabolic state. And aren't the best calories for immediate use after exercise are simple carbs.

It is a very sound theory and makes alot of sense. Silent Method provided definitive information and concise thoughts as to his position. It would be very interesting to hear Nelson's argument in terms of the question posed. Why do you feel muscle growth will not be increased with a post-workout drink as opposed to a regular meal?

This is no flame. It is a very interesting subject which, with civil debate would no doubt be invaluable to all of us. I mean a post-workout drink that actually contributes to muscle growth. Nelson, if you have an argument or a position that contradicts this, by all means present your case and lets debate.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I just spent the last 45 minutes reading through this post. Aside from all the flaming there is alot of great information. I have read alot of Nelson's posts and find some of his theories very interesting. However, I really have to agree with Silent Method on this one. By no means am I flaming or attacking Nelson's credibility, but the following seems true:

Silent Method's statement was a post-workout drink high in carbs would increase the muscle growth.

Nelson's statement was it will not increase muscle growth any more than a regular meal anytime of the day.

In laymans (sp.) terms, according to Silent Method, high carbs increase insulin which, in turn, increases protien uptake in the muscles. At the same time catabolic effects are reduced. It would seem that post work-out reduction of catabolic effects alone would contribute to increased muscle growth, but the addition of protien uptake creates an environement in which inceased muscle growth is almost assured.

As to the time frame. Does it not make sense that your body is depleated of energy (calories) upon completion of a workout. And the sooner you provide rapid energy (calories) the better, so the body will consume the calories you provide and not your reserves, primarily muscle tissue. Thus the anti-catabolic state. And aren't the best calories for immediate use after exercise are simple carbs.

It is a very sound theory and makes alot of sense. Silent Method provided definitive information and concise thoughts as to his position. It would be very interesting to hear Nelson's argument in terms of the question posed. Why do you feel muscle growth will not be increased with a post-workout drink as opposed to a regular meal?

This is no flame. It is a very interesting subject which, with civil debate would no doubt be invaluable to all of us. I mean a post-workout drink that actually contributes to muscle growth. Nelson, if you have an argument or a position that contradicts this, by all means present your case and lets debate.

So we're back to discussing the topic?! Oh no! : )

No flame taken bro. I think the misunderstanding here isn't that I DON'T think the high carb thing has merit. My point is that a high carb as oppossed to a low carb, 15 minutes or 25 mnutes...wait a minute... I've been through all this already. The bottom line is this; Sugar isn't a horrible as people make it out to be and it isn't as magical as people make it out to be. In the long run I doubt if the amount of muscle gained over the course of year but attmepting to time the exact perfect time to drink a "dextrose only" protein shake after a workout is inconsequential. Will you have another 2 ounzes of muscle at the end of the year if you use dextrose instead of sucrose? It's doubtful, but I'll concede. MAYBE you will. Maybe not. So the question is, "Is it worth it obsessing over this? I say no. Others disagree. And that's all this is. Nothing more, nothing less -- except for all the hatred toward me because of my beliefs.

Pretty amazing, isn't it?

 

[jubei]

LMFAO @ NM thinking he knows me.

 

[R77M]

I can see where your coming from. I mean all this hoopla over an ounce or 2 right. Hell Ya!!! I mean aren't we all obsessive? Isn't that why we kill ourselves in the gym religiously? If I can have any edge even the smallest, I want it! Think about it you use a high carb drink post work-out and increase your growth by say 2 ounces a year. If you can add eight other items to your regime which provide the same amount of growth that is an extra pound of growth a year, in addition to the growth you experience from training and nutrition. I know it seems far fetched, but theoretically it is possible.

Now add these same principles to a cycle. Would it not be possible to increase your muscle growth from 2 ounces to 8 ounces with a high carb post work-out drink? I don't know, but it is food for thought. And why not make the most of it. You spend countless hours preparing your calorie intake, followed but brutal workouts. Then you spend enormous amounts of time researching your next cycle. Putting together the best gear for your goals. Why not take advantage of 2 ounces? It's worth to me!

 

[Fonz]

So we're back to discussing the topic?! Oh no! : )

No flame taken bro. I think the misunderstanding here isn't that I DON'T think the high carb thing has merit. My point is that a high carb as oppossed to a low carb, 15 minutes or 25 mnutes...wait a minute... I've been through all this already. The bottom line is this; Sugar isn't a horrible as people make it out to be and it isn't as magical as people make it out to be. In the long run I doubt if the amount of muscle gained over the course of year but attmepting to time the exact perfect time to drink a "dextrose only" protein shake after a workout is inconsequential. Will you have another 2 ounzes of muscle at the end of the year if you use dextrose instead of sucrose? It's doubtful, but I'll concede. MAYBE you will. Maybe not. So the question is, "Is it worth it obsessing over this? I say no. Others disagree. And that's all this is. Nothing more, nothing less -- except for all the hatred toward me because of my beliefs.

Pretty amazing, isn't it?

You are officially an idiot.

Just had to say that.

Arrogance w/o knowledge = stupidity

If you were arrogant but had SOME knowledge I could care less. But fact is, you don't. Which just makes this all that much more laughable.

And I WANT TO SEE REFERENCES TO ALL THESE PUBLICATIONS(200?) YOU SAID YOU WROTE.

Let me guess.....T-mag right?

LMFAO

And just for a reality check: How many 50+ year olds on the boards do you see acting like you do?

Hopefully, you'll catch the drift..............

Fonz

 

[Citruscide]

Really? With this thread?

*shaking head* -- Fonz, just let it go man... you are driving an Escalade in a huge puddle of mud... spinning your wheels to no avail.

C-ditty

 

[Citruscide]

But the funny thing is, I see that hundreds of people click on this thread each day, so as far as I'm concerned, we're putting on a show. Give the people what they want! Plus, now it's a statement of sorts. It's made me realize that this is a colossal waste of time and my help, although appreciated by some, will just be resented by all the nobodies with big mouths.

Yes, you have outed our game plan Nelson. We have orchestrated this thread to keep you from polluting others. LOL

C-ditty

 

[Spidey]

You are officially an idiot.

Just had to say that.

Arrogance w/o knowledge = stupidity

If you were arrogant but had SOME knowledge I could care less. But fact is, you don't. Which just makes this all that much more laughable.

And I WANT TO SEE REFERENCES TO ALL THESE PUBLICATIONS(200?) YOU SAID YOU WROTE.

Let me guess.....T-mag right?

LMFAO

And just for a reality check: How many 50+ year olds on the boards do you see acting like you do?

Hopefully, you'll catch the drift..............

Fonz

Damn, just when things were starting to calm down.....

You know....if I didn't know better, I'd say you really don't like Nelson, LOL.

WHERE'S THE LOVE MAN?????

Seriously, you are wasting your time. Disagreeing with Nelson is just like ramming your head into granite wall. You can't change his mind. You can't use logic or science to prove your point; his opinion is like a force of nature to him. It overwhelms any and all dissenting opinions no matter how logical, scientific or true they may be. I think he really believes the crap he espouses. I also think he is simply incapable of admitting he is wrong. Can you find a single post in which he acknowledges he is mistaken about ANYTHING? I can't. Either he is truly god-like and doesn't make mistakes or he is incapable of admitting them.

 

[Fonz]

Damn, just when things were starting to calm down.....

You know....if I didn't know better, I'd say you really don't like Nelson, LOL.

WHERE'S THE LOVE MAN?????

Seriously, you are wasting your time. Disagreeing with Nelson is just like ramming your head into granite wall. You can't change his mind. You can't use logic or science to prove your point; his opinion is like a force of nature to him. It overwhelms any and all dissenting opinions no matter how logical, scientific or true they may be. I think he really believes the crap he espouses. I also think he is simply incapable of admitting he is wrong. Can you find a single post in which he acknowledges he is mistaken about ANYTHING? I can't. Either he is truly god-like and doesn't make mistakes or he is incapable of admitting them.

Just one.

When he got busted for using multiple aliases on the same thread
att bb.com. He was basically agreeing with himself, in order to make PF and himself look good.

That thread makes this thread look like an ant in comparison. He got steamrolled so badly it wasn't even funny.

NM has MPS(Multiple personality disorder)

And I still want to see those 200 publications.

Fonz

 

[Spidey]

Just one.

When he got busted for using multiple aliases on the same thread
att bb.com. He was basically agreeing with himself, in order to make PF and himself look good.

That thread makes this thread look like an ant in comparison. He got steamrolled so badly it wasn't even funny.

NM has MPS(Multiple personality disorder)

And I still want to see those 200 publications.

Fonz

Does that thread still exist?

 

[Fonz]

Does that thread still exist?

Yep.

Here, have a good laugh:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162534&highlight=Protein+Factory

 

[kronk]

Nelson, this is an off topic question but since this whole thread is off topic I thought I would ask. Did you really have ab etching to pronounce your abdominals?

 

[kronk]

Forget it, I guess you did have it done. Nadler is a great doc and I have heard great things. Please keep in mind I only wanted to ask because I read it on that other post and wanted to see if it was true.

http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_65abs.html

 

[Fonz]

Forget it, I guess you did have it done. Nadler is a great doc and I have heard great things. Please keep in mind I only wanted to ask becuase I read it on that other post and wanted to see if it was true.

http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_65abs.html

LMFAO

That is like the pinnacle of ironies when you take into consideration his "amazing" ab-routine......lol

Forgot about that one.....haha

Fonz

 

[jubei]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah nelson your "ab routine" is the best...

 

[poantrex]

LMFAO!!!!

I got abs by doing tons of cardio regularly! NO DRUGS AND NO AB ETCHING!

Of course we all know cardio is worthless and does nothing to burn fat though , right!

 

[BigAndy69]

I think he really believes the crap he espouses.

This is the problem, he doesn't. There's no way he beleives that protein cannot be absorbed without the presence of fat.

It's a simple marketing strategy.

Make bold statements with no backing
Smart members don't buy it
Twist it around to make it into personal attacks

Makes him look like the underdog, like he is making statements that are too advanced for us to accept. Newbies buys into it, purchase his book.

Truth is he knows no more than the average elitefitness member about BBing and anabolics. If he did, he wouldn't have to resort to this.

Fonz is arrogant, no doubt, but through the years he has provided a lot of original ideas, tested UG products, etc...he contributes greatly. NM knows his shit about supplement company scams, that's about it.

If he didn't make this website money, he would have been out of here a long time ago

 

[DaddyX]

i stayed out of this for one reason. all nelson does is stir up controversy cause it sells. it is not hard to see that and it's actually a smart thing to do on his part

 

[Silent Method]

What's a "new" discovery? Something that hasn't been done before, hence the term "new" and "discovery."

Focus. You're either dodging, misunderstanding, or are unable to understand my question. Let's run through it again.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SM: "I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
Silent; Suddenly you're curious to hear my methods? Let's just say that it's doubtful you'll find tha ab exercise anywhere else. Considereing the fact that there are hundreds of ab articles every year, that's saying something. Do a search . Dozens of people on this board have gotten great results from the calve routine, but what does it matter? You already know everything and I know nothing. Remember
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SM: "Ease up there big boy. First, I'm always curious to see different methods.


Regardless, that is not what I asked. You sated "i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts."

I asked, I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?"






BTW Nelson, you never addressed my post #306 in the thread. Come on, get your head in the game. We've got all the time in the world.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
I understand what you're saying about the last set but I still maintain it isn't a very accurate gauge. It's like the HIT one set to failure concept. Well, what is failure? If you can do another set one minute later are you REALLY exausted? It's too hard to say for certain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is certainly a better notion then those you had posted before. However, you're still a bit cloudy.

Look, these are some principles of exercise physiology we must understand:

*Exercise is a single acute bout of physical exertion requiring energy expenditure beyond regular daily physical activity. (For athletes, the intensity of energy expenditure during exercise is significantly elevated and exercise session are highly structured - making actual "exercise" bouts easy to identify.)

*Exercise disrupts the dynamic equilibruim of the body. These homeostatic disruptions are cumulatively the body's exercise response.

*In large part, exercise response patterns can be gauged. If they could not be, the body would make no differentiation in function between exercise and non-exercise - there would not be exercise physiology.


Now, what are we trying to gauge? You brought up the notion of the "un-gaugeable" interval between exercise and post-exercise in specific regard to glycogen resynthesis a couple pages back. Lets roll with that.

One answer is simple: Glycogen synthase. The level of the very enzyme responsible for glycogen resynthesis is floating around in enormous quantities during that 15 minute post-exercise window (and in lesser but still abnormally high abundance up to an hour after exercise).



OK, enough from the glycogen replenishment aspect - how does this relate to muscle growth? Again, analyze exercise response. Read what has already been posted in this thread. In the most simple terms I can muster: Exercise -> catabolism + 4:1 high GI/high BV protein -> anabolism.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
You said the meaningful thing mentioned in this entire thread. (And Silent Method should take note) You said the evidence suggests that it PROBABLY increases the chance of muscle growth. You are so right! All I'M saying is that I believe from my experiences and observations that it PROBABLY isn't that much of a difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is fine. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with much of the nonsense you had put forth in argument before getting to this point.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
Also (and this is important), why do coaches enploy these methods with cyclists and swimmers and runners? BECAUSE THEY ARE ENDURENCE ATHLETES WHO MUST DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE. I would do the same exact thing if I were training a swimmer or a cyclists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From the glycogen resynthesis perspective you keep coming back to you are largely correct in this point. Read what I have already posted on this thread – way back. After a bout of anaerobic exercise such as a weight training session, the body needs very little help in regard to glycogen resynthesis. (In terms of glycogen replenishment, high GI carbs shine following aerobic, higher duration exercise.)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
But that has NOTHING to do with muscle growth!!!

I think we're finally in agreement here .

One last thing. Not every observation is documented on the net. I'll bet you can't find an single references on the net that an apple is red. But it is. The same goes with this. My experience, both personal and with clients and from speaking with athletes of all levels (which is extensive) tells me, that a high GI post workout as opposed to a low GI carb, fifteen minutes after or 25 minutes after , shows no discernable difference in MUSCLE GROWTH. This is the point of contention that Silent could not comprehend, but instead he chose to harp on it and harp on it. I'm willing accept that he doesn't get it and move on, but he insists on trying to make me out as incompetant and that pisses me off. I know it shouldn't because e's just a jerk, but I have a little too much pride somethimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, you are limiting yourself to concerns of glycogen. The concept of anabolic drive is quite real. Any athlete knows this – and for bodybuilders it is an obsession. The post-exercise recovery shake I have recommended in this thread WILL catapult an athlete from a catabolic post-exercise state to a strong anabolic state. This has everything to do with muscle growth.

Now, if you wish to debate the degree to which this will actually affect muscle growth, fine. As a piece of the “anabolic” puzzle, I believe it will yield a significant advantage over time. Men like Dr. Michael Colgan, the world’s premier authority on sports nutrition, believe it and have measured it. The elite athletes they train have seen it for themselves.

Nelson, what kind of clients have you tried the 4:1 High GI carb/High BV protein shake with? Did you have a control group with similar stats training and eating in otherwise identical ways? For how many months were they engaged in the systematic testing of the proposed recovery meal? How about years? Places like the Colgan Institute track this stuff. They, and others, say it works.



Playing off of genarr's post, I readily concede that precise, stopwatch timing of the post-recovery meal is quite unnecessary. The recovery meal is not rocket science. Following exercise the body is in a state ripe for the utilization of the nutrients. With time, normal equilibrium returns and the introduction of the recovery meal is less adventageous.

Like you said - what we do is a marathon of years, not a single day. This is exactly what the post-exercise recovery shake fits so well with us. It's easy as hell for most of us to utilize, made correctly it tastes good, and, over the course of time, it works!

 

[NeIson Montana]

FIRST of all, I’m sick of this thread. So fucking what if I made another name on the board to agree with my self? Nobody else agreed with me so I had to do it my self, fuck it I’m a guru.

SECOND...I have a book and you all don’t, so you all should buy it . My book is filled with great stuff. I discuss my great ab routine, but please please pleaseeeee disregard that crap about me getting surgery done by some doc to make my abs look decent...it was all the result of my NEW DISCOVERY ab routine, yep you better belive all the stuff in my book...

THIRD...I endorse and recommend that you all buy the stuff from protein factory because they make good stuff. To the haters that say they lie about the amounts of the stuff they put in their stuffs, I say so what if they lie...who doesn’t, do they have to put that on their label too “accuracy of the potency 25%”?? And you all should disregard the fact that they went to court over it and lost and stuff and looked like liars and stuff because my friend the owner Mr. Alex got real mad over it so don’t talk about that or he’ll go in to a whey protein rage and break stuff…but I don’t think it will be that bad cause his whey is underdosed…oops you didn’t hear that from meeeeee.

FOURTH...Please don’t debate me or I will call you an IDIOT and put you down with out defending my false claims. Because I’ve published stuff and you all haven’t so I’m right and your wrong... lets just leave it at that. It’s the easiest way for me to defend my self and stuff…

FIFTH...I’m like 50 years old and stuff, so please show me some respect. I’ve been a model, a singer, an artist, and a ton of other things none of you can say you’ve done all that...plus I have another 20 - 30 years to live I might fly to the moon some day and write a book about it and stuff…

SIXTH...I’m a guru not many of you can say that about your self. I’ve trained every big name out there, its true, they all bought my book and got real big and strong and won championships and trophies and got lots of money and stuff. That Dan Dookie guy was my friend and I told him everything to write in his books, that was before I learned how to use a typewriter. After that he disappeared and didn’t write any more books because I began to write my own so he had no material to write about since I didn’t give him any. Some people think he’s dead and that’s the reason why he’s not publishing any more but its really because I stopped giving him all the good info im giving you all in my books…

So the moral of this story is buy my books, do all the stuffs I tell you to do, eat all the protein that my friend Alex makes (ladies he makes an excellent cum shake with 32g of protein, Ive had it my self), and umm I think you’ll get big and stuff. And if your lucky and stuff, you can become governor of California like one of the champions that I trained…I cant say his name because of confidentiality issues but he’s big and stuff…


Thanks Guys

 

[Silent Method]

FOURTH...Please don’t debate me or I will call you an IDIOT and put you down with out defending my false claims.

LOL This is about what it boils down to. (I wonder how long your account is going to last with that name and sig )

 

[Fonz]

LMFAO@calling yourself a "Guru"

You just dug yourself into a deeper hole after that one.

And a book?

I'll write one...so we can finally haul your sorry ass from EF.

Go to another board with your stupidity.

Oh wait.......no other board except T-mag...a.k.a T-shit has any respect for your ideas.....haha

And are you actually DEFENDING using alter-ego's to AGREE with yourself in order to BOLSTER a company that obviously pays you?

Holy shit........thats just incredible. I thought I had seen it all....but that just beats them all.

Fonz

 

[Juice Authority]

LMFAO@calling yourself a "Guru"

You just dug yourself into a deeper hole after that one.

And a book?

I'll write one...so we can finally haul your sorry ass from EF.

Go to another board with your stupidity.

Oh wait.......no other board except T-mag...a.k.a T-shit has any respect for your ideas.....haha

And are you actually DEFENDING using alter-ego's to AGREE with yourself in order to BOLSTER a company that obviously pays you?

Holy shit........thats just incredible. I thought I had seen it all....but that just beats them all.

Fonz

That is pretty fucking lame.

 

[speedy7]

WTF. Is this the real Nelson? It looks like "N E I L S O N" to me? Plus like a mod said in another post, the ip addy doesn't match up to the real Nelson. Will the Real Nelson Montana please stand up, please stand up, please stand up.

 

[Fukkenshredded]

Nelson--ignore the personal attacks. I, for one, find many of your posts to be thought provoking and educational. Maybe we disagree, but I can deal with that. I hope you don't categorize all of us who debate you with the few children who only want to antagonize you to make themselves look funny or smart. We have some good debates now and then. Silent Method seems to debate fairly and openly without a purile desintigration into insult warring. A few others, too. Like I said--shake this other silliness off.

 

[sk*]

Forget it, I guess you did have it done. Nadler is a great doc and I have heard great things. Please keep in mind I only wanted to ask because I read it on that other post and wanted to see if it was true.

http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_65abs.html

I'm speechless ...

-sk

 

[Nelson Montana]

FIRST of all, I’m sick of this thread. So fucking what if I made another name on the board to agree with my self? Nobody else agreed with me so I had to do it my self, fuck it I’m a guru.

SECOND...I have a book and you all don’t, so you all should buy it . My book is filled with great stuff. I discuss my great ab routine, but please please pleaseeeee disregard that crap about me getting surgery done by some doc to make my abs look decent...it was all the result of my NEW DISCOVERY ab routine, yep you better belive all the stuff in my book...

THIRD...I endorse and recommend that you all buy the stuff from protein factory because they make good stuff. To the haters that say they lie about the amounts of the stuff they put in their stuffs, I say so what if they lie...who doesn’t, do they have to put that on their label too “accuracy of the potency 25%”?? And you all should disregard the fact that they went to court over it and lost and stuff and looked like liars and stuff because my friend the owner Mr. Alex got real mad over it so don’t talk about that or he’ll go in to a whey protein rage and break stuff…but I don’t think it will be that bad cause his whey is underdosed…oops you didn’t hear that from meeeeee.

FOURTH...Please don’t debate me or I will call you an IDIOT and put you down with out defending my false claims. Because I’ve published stuff and you all haven’t so I’m right and your wrong... lets just leave it at that. It’s the easiest way for me to defend my self and stuff…

FIFTH...I’m like 50 years old and stuff, so please show me some respect. I’ve been a model, a singer, an artist, and a ton of other things none of you can say you’ve done all that...plus I have another 20 - 30 years to live I might fly to the moon some day and write a book about it and stuff…

SIXTH...I’m a guru not many of you can say that about your self. I’ve trained every big name out there, its true, they all bought my book and got real big and strong and won championships and trophies and got lots of money and stuff. That Dan Dookie guy was my friend and I told him everything to write in his books, that was before I learned how to use a typewriter. After that he disappeared and didn’t write any more books because I began to write my own so he had no material to write about since I didn’t give him any. Some people think he’s dead and that’s the reason why he’s not publishing any more but its really because I stopped giving him all the good info im giving you all in my books…

So the moral of this story is buy my books, do all the stuffs I tell you to do, eat all the protein that my friend Alex makes (ladies he makes an excellent cum shake with 32g of protein, Ive had it my self), and umm I think you’ll get big and stuff. And if your lucky and stuff, you can become governor of California like one of the champions that I trained…I cant say his name because of confidentiality issues but he’s big and stuff…


Thanks Guys

I wonder what pathetic clown did this? That's how you try to prove me wrong? By falsifying statements? Oh, you were trying to be funny? Very clever.

Funkenshredded: Appreciate the words bro. No, I'm not grouping everyone together at all. All my remarks are geared at the 3 or 4 nit wits who just want to hate. I even think SM is sincere -- just a little unyielding.

I think by now it's clear to hundreds of members that Fonz only interest is to be disruptive. When someone came on and got back on topic, even though I've been though the ringer here, I've tried to discuss the issue. I'd even say we made a little headway. But that isn't what Fonz wants. He just wants attention. He just wants to lie and attempt to discredit me beause he's accomplished nothing other than to be a big shot on EF and now he isn't such a big shot any more. He really is an embarassment to himself and the company.

kronk: I've explained this before, but I'll do it again. I had the etching as part of an assigment. To be honest it didn't really do much. If you look at my pics on my website, they are ALL pre-surgery except for the one shot on the home page, so it's obviious I had abs. But even still, I have nothing against doing what it takes to look better as long as it isn't stupid. (Like staying on fina for 6 months). I WOULD recomend ab etching for the obliques. It doesn't hurt as much and the results are better. But for the front, in my case, since I had little fat to start with, I tell people it really wasn't worth it.

Also, I might as well address this as well -- as you can see, I have a lot more muscle in the "after" shot from that ab pice. That was 100% natural. So why do I look 30 pounds bigger than that "before" after shot? Well, at the time my father was dying and I was under terrible stress. I was having panic attacks and couldn't sleep. I went from 195 pounds to 165. It sucked. The only reason I'm mentioning this is to give some perspective. I've had people respond to that pic and tell me I'm a loser, a phony , and a fag because I'm so thin. I can't exactly "laugh" at that response, but you can imagine how meaningless their comments are to me -- not only because they're wrong, and not only because there are obviously more important things in life, but because they don't know how much they're diminishing themselves with their words . But that's the way some people are, you know?

 

[Fonz]

"I think by now it's clear to hundreds of members that Fonz only interest is to be disruptive. When someone came on and got back on topic, even though I've been though the ringer here, I've tried to discuss the issue. I'd even say we made a little headway. But that isn't what Fonz wants. He just wants attention. He just wants to lie and attempt to discredit me beause he's accomplished nothing other than to be a big shot on EF and now he isn't such a big shot any more. He really is an embarassment to himself and the company."

Yep. Thats me Mr. Disruptive.

Funny how i only do it to you huh?

You've been shown on this thread to be an utter farce. You're only on these boards to sell your book and peddle your little supplement line. Period. You've also been warned MULTIPLE times to stop your supplement peddling.

Don't try to claim you're on here for altruistuc purposes because thats PURE BS.

Do you think people are that naive? They've seen right through your little veneer of "fake experience" in this thread. You're knowledge of AAS and supplements is downright rudimentary....no matter how much you claim to know.

You'll be gone soon enough. You can mark my words. You've been a blight on EF for far too long IMO.

Now don't attempt to run your mouth again....because your posts WILL be deleted. That much I can assure you.

I've put up with your BS for far too long. And so has everybody on EF for that matter.

Now go back to T-mag.

Fonz

 

[kronk]

kronk: I've explained this before, but I'll do it again. I had the etching as part of an assigment. To be honest it didn't really do much. If you look at my pics on my website, they are ALL pre-surgery except for the one shot on the home page, so it's obviious I had abs. But even still, I have nothing against doing what it takes to look better as long as it isn't stupid. (Like staying on fina for 6 months). I WOULD recomend ab etching for the obliques. It doesn't hurt as much and the results are better. But for the front, in my case, since I had little fat to start with, I tell people it really wasn't worth it.

Thanks for the response, it looks like an interesting procedure.

 

[danjb]

Whoa! Everybody SLOW YOUR ROLL!!!

Regarding the original issue of this thread, (Protein/Fat or Protein/Sugar), whatever.
Did anyone think of asking Dr. Mauro DiPasquale,M.D. (Anabolic Diet, Metabolic Diet) to cite references to this issue?
How about Dave Draper?
They'll sure back up what Nelson is TRYYYIIING to explain.
Peace,Bros!

 

[Nelson Montana]

"I think by now it's clear to hundreds of members that Fonz only interest is to be disruptive. When someone came on and got back on topic, even though I've been though the ringer here, I've tried to discuss the issue. I'd even say we made a little headway. But that isn't what Fonz wants. He just wants attention. He just wants to lie and attempt to discredit me beause he's accomplished nothing other than to be a big shot on EF and now he isn't such a big shot any more. He really is an embarassment to himself and the company."

Yep. Thats me Mr. Disruptive.

Funny how i only do it to you huh?

...........................................

Well, you're one of the main antagonists. At least some of the others try and make a point. You just want to disparage me and boast about you own superior intellect. This post, once again, proves that disruption is your only motive.



............................................



You've been shown on this thread to be an utter farce. You're only on these boards to sell your book and peddle your little supplement line. Period. You've also been warned MULTIPLE times to stop your supplement peddling.

Don't try to claim you're on here for altruistuc purposes because thats PURE BS.

...........................................

Who ever said I WAS here for altruistic purposes? Fuck altruisim. Some of the most heinous acts in the history of the world were done in the name of altruism. The Holocaust was carried out "for the benefit of the country." The attacks on the World trade center were performed to "help Islam." All unselfish acts designed "for the greater good." I believe in the greatness of the individual. Da Vinci, Edison, Beethoven, Picasso -- these are men who did what they did for themselves, yet their work benefited many. I realize this is over your head Fonz.

............................................


Do you think people are that naive? They've seen right through your little veneer of "fake experience" in this thread. You're knowledge of AAS and supplements is downright rudimentary....no matter how much you claim to know.

You'll be gone soon enough. You can mark my words. You've been a blight on EF for far too long IMO.


............................................


Blah, blah, blah....


............................................

Now don't attempt to run your mouth again....because your posts WILL be deleted. That much I can assure you.


...........................................

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised. That's the only way you can win an argument -- by deleting or editing your opponents posts.

............................................


I've put up with your BS for far too long. And so has everybody on EF for that matter.


............................................


And what B.S. is that? The outrageous behaviour of not using dextrose with my "after workout" drink? Or is it the fact that I make a fool of you at every turn?


............................................

Now go back to T-mag.

Fonz

...........................................


Poor Fonz doesn't like anyone playing in his sandbox. BWAHAAAAAA

 

[Spidey]

Who the FUCK edited my post?!

For the record, I stated in reply to Ne"I"son Montana's post that it's not cool to pull the real Nelson's wife and kid into this - especially with such derogatory terms.


So who the fuck deleted it? Not cool at all.

That whole NeIson Montana thing was infantile, no doubt.

Who brought in Nelson's family though? I didn't see it. Maybe it was edited or deleted. You're right though; that would be WAY uncool.

 

[Silent Method]

That whole NeIson Montana thing was infantile, no doubt.

Who brought in Nelson's family though? I didn't see it. Maybe it was edited or deleted. You're right though; that would be WAY uncool.

About that, a good mod cut those bullshit comments out of "NeIson's" post. My post was edited to keep that bull out of here.

It was a good call...

 

[Nelson Montana]

I told you Nelson, another reatrded post and its gone.

I was NOT kidding.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

Back on task...

What's a "new" discovery? Something that hasn't been done before, hence the term "new" and "discovery."

Focus. You're either dodging, misunderstanding, or are unable to understand my question. Let's run through it again.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SM: "I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
Silent; Suddenly you're curious to hear my methods? Let's just say that it's doubtful you'll find tha ab exercise anywhere else. Considereing the fact that there are hundreds of ab articles every year, that's saying something. Do a search . Dozens of people on this board have gotten great results from the calve routine, but what does it matter? You already know everything and I know nothing. Remember
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SM: "Ease up there big boy. First, I'm always curious to see different methods.


Regardless, that is not what I asked. You sated "i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts."

I asked, I'm curious, what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?"






BTW Nelson, you never addressed my post #306 in the thread. Come on, get your head in the game. We've got all the time in the world.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
I understand what you're saying about the last set but I still maintain it isn't a very accurate gauge. It's like the HIT one set to failure concept. Well, what is failure? If you can do another set one minute later are you REALLY exausted? It's too hard to say for certain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is certainly a better notion then those you had posted before. However, you're still a bit cloudy.

Look, these are some principles of exercise physiology we must understand:

*Exercise is a single acute bout of physical exertion requiring energy expenditure beyond regular daily physical activity. (For athletes, the intensity of energy expenditure during exercise is significantly elevated and exercise session are highly structured - making actual "exercise" bouts easy to identify.)

*Exercise disrupts the dynamic equilibruim of the body. These homeostatic disruptions are cumulatively the body's exercise response.

*In large part, exercise response patterns can be gauged. If they could not be, the body would make no differentiation in function between exercise and non-exercise - there would not be exercise physiology.


Now, what are we trying to gauge? You brought up the notion of the "un-gaugeable" interval between exercise and post-exercise in specific regard to glycogen resynthesis a couple pages back. Lets roll with that.

One answer is simple: Glycogen synthase. The level of the very enzyme responsible for glycogen resynthesis is floating around in enormous quantities during that 15 minute post-exercise window (and in lesser but still abnormally high abundance up to an hour after exercise).



OK, enough from the glycogen replenishment aspect - how does this relate to muscle growth? Again, analyze exercise response. Read what has already been posted in this thread. In the most simple terms I can muster: Exercise -> catabolism + 4:1 high GI/high BV protein -> anabolism.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
You said the meaningful thing mentioned in this entire thread. (And Silent Method should take note) You said the evidence suggests that it PROBABLY increases the chance of muscle growth. You are so right! All I'M saying is that I believe from my experiences and observations that it PROBABLY isn't that much of a difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is fine. I have no problem with this. I do have a problem with much of the nonsense you had put forth in argument before getting to this point.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
Also (and this is important), why do coaches enploy these methods with cyclists and swimmers and runners? BECAUSE THEY ARE ENDURENCE ATHLETES WHO MUST DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE. I would do the same exact thing if I were training a swimmer or a cyclists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From the glycogen resynthesis perspective you keep coming back to you are largely correct in this point. Read what I have already posted on this thread – way back. After a bout of anaerobic exercise such as a weight training session, the body needs very little help in regard to glycogen resynthesis. (In terms of glycogen replenishment, high GI carbs shine following aerobic, higher duration exercise.)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nelson Montana
But that has NOTHING to do with muscle growth!!!

I think we're finally in agreement here .

One last thing. Not every observation is documented on the net. I'll bet you can't find an single references on the net that an apple is red. But it is. The same goes with this. My experience, both personal and with clients and from speaking with athletes of all levels (which is extensive) tells me, that a high GI post workout as opposed to a low GI carb, fifteen minutes after or 25 minutes after , shows no discernable difference in MUSCLE GROWTH. This is the point of contention that Silent could not comprehend, but instead he chose to harp on it and harp on it. I'm willing accept that he doesn't get it and move on, but he insists on trying to make me out as incompetant and that pisses me off. I know it shouldn't because e's just a jerk, but I have a little too much pride somethimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, you are limiting yourself to concerns of glycogen. The concept of anabolic drive is quite real. Any athlete knows this – and for bodybuilders it is an obsession. The post-exercise recovery shake I have recommended in this thread WILL catapult an athlete from a catabolic post-exercise state to a strong anabolic state. This has everything to do with muscle growth.

Now, if you wish to debate the degree to which this will actually affect muscle growth, fine. As a piece of the “anabolic” puzzle, I believe it will yield a significant advantage over time. Men like Dr. Michael Colgan, the world’s premier authority on sports nutrition, believe it and have measured it. The elite athletes they train have seen it for themselves.

Nelson, what kind of clients have you tried the 4:1 High GI carb/High BV protein shake with? Did you have a control group with similar stats training and eating in otherwise identical ways? For how many months were they engaged in the systematic testing of the proposed recovery meal? How about years? Places like the Colgan Institute track this stuff. They, and others, say it works.



Playing off of genarr's post, I readily concede that precise, stopwatch timing of the post-recovery meal is quite unnecessary. The recovery meal is not rocket science. Following exercise the body is in a state ripe for the utilization of the nutrients. With time, normal equilibrium returns and the introduction of the recovery meal is less adventageous.

Like you said - what we do is a marathon of years, not a single day. This is exactly what the post-exercise recovery shake fits so well with us. It's easy as hell for most of us to utilize, made correctly it tastes good, and, over the course of time, it works!

 

[TPH]

After all Fonz has done for this Board and its members, the fact that any member can personally attack him is disturbing.

TPH

 

[Nelson Montana]

SM: Why are you re-posting that same thread? This is what makes me take you less seriously. You keep harping over and over and over on these same points. I addressed them You didn't lie my answer. I GET IT! I don't want to continue discussing it. You win! Alright? Let it go bro. Let it go. Do you understand what that means? Let it GO.

TPH: You're mistaken. I did not attack Fonz. I responded to his disgusting and deceitful comments about me. There's a difference.

Maybe he's done a lot for this board. I think I have too. The only difference is that he's given more plagerized information and he's given more BAD advice than anyone else. But again, that's for the members to decide. Cast your vote for Fonz if that's the way you feel. But let's keep track. let's not just have bickering back and forth.

 

[danjb]

Nelson

Hi Nelson,
Try to read my PM. Thanks, danjb

 

[Silent Method]

SM: Why are you re-posting that same thread? This is what makes me take you less seriously. You keep harping over and over and over on these same points. I addressed them You didn't lie my answer. I GET IT! I don't want to continue discussing it. You win! Alright? Let it go bro. Let it go. Do you understand what that means? Let it GO.

You did not address them. (BTW, what changed your mind about wanting to continue the discussion? Yesterday you were gung ho about forever contributing to this "never ending" thread. If so, lets stick to matters of athletic practice.)

You state: "i discovered alternate routes, MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PRAISED ON THIS VERY BOARD such as the ab exercise, and the calve routine and many other concepts."

The question I'm asking you to address is what concepts related to your ab and calf routines are new discoveries?

Thus far you have not directly addressed this question.


Secondly, you state: "My experience, both personal and with clients and from speaking with athletes of all levels (which is extensive) tells me, that a high GI post workout as opposed to a low GI carb, fifteen minutes after or 25 minutes after , shows no discernable difference in MUSCLE GROWTH."

I replied "Now, if you wish to debate the degree to which this will actually affect muscle growth, fine. As a piece of the “anabolic” puzzle, I believe it will yield a significant advantage over time. Men like Dr. Michael Colgan, the world’s premier authority on sports nutrition, believe it and have measured it. The elite athletes they train have seen it for themselves.

Nelson, what kind of clients have you tried the 4:1 High GI carb/High BV protein shake with? Did you have a control group with similar stats training and eating in otherwise identical ways? For how many months were they engaged in the systematic testing of the proposed recovery meal? How about years? Places like the Colgan Institute track this stuff. They, and others, say it works."

You have not addressed this.

 

[poantrex]

I've already put a word in to George to have Fonz removed. He is hurting business and turning people off to the site. It's Georges call, and he may feel that all this arguing creates excitment, but I'm not sure if he is aware how much Fonz is hurting business. Forget my disagreements with him. His antics have taken money out of Georges pocket and that is the ultimate act of disrespect.

FONZ??? Name one person here that wants fonz removed. I can name about 20 that want you removed.

Oh, my, god. Nelson, you are a sad individual...seriously, you need to seek some self evaluation.

 

[BigAndy69]

Maybe he's done a lot for this board. I think I have too. The only difference is that he's given more plagerized information and he's given more BAD advice than anyone else. But again, that's for the members to decide. Cast your vote for Fonz if that's the way you feel. But let's keep track. let's not just have bickering back and forth.

Who do you think you are fooling? You weren't here in 2000. 2001..etc

You don't know what you are talking about, Fonz has contributed more than you EVER will.

You are a fraud, if you wouldn't have taken your promotion too far, you would have made a lot more sales in the long run. At first I kept my mouth shut, but now you are just a nuisance to the board.

The vets with a few exceptions like genarr3 and needsize think you are a joke. Most other members do as well and 95% of the anabolic mods, i'm not talking about Citruside, guys who haven't voiced there opinion of you because they are mods and it hurts George's business.

Actually, this is partially George's fault for allowing this to go on.

 

[jubei]

Don't even compare yourself to fonz, huck, BA69, term, canuck,etc,etc. I would take advice from a newb before I listened to your bullshit.

 

[Spidey]

Maybe he's done a lot for this board. I think I have too. The only difference is that he's given more plagerized information and he's given more BAD advice than anyone else. But again, that's for the members to decide. Cast your vote for Fonz if that's the way you feel. But let's keep track. let's not just have bickering back and forth.

Man oh man are you out of touch with reality.

Nelson, wake up and smell the coffee dude. NO ONE here wants Fonz to leave. I can't think of a single post (except this one from you) that has ever even hinted at that. Sure, he can be arrogant at times and I don't necessarily think his experimentation on himself is a wise thing to do but he has posted a LOT of useful information on many aspects of diet and training.

You, on the other hand, generally post complete nonsense as unequivocal fact. When you are called on it, you then respond by attacking whoever doesn't agree with your nonsensical view, calling them idiots and complaining that it is actually YOU who are under attack. If that doesn't work right off, you amend your initial nonsensical statement to SLIGHTLY agree with your detractors while sarcastically explaining that you must have been just talking over our heads. I.E., we're just too simple minded to grasp the concept so you have to break it down for us.

What knuckle-dragging MORONS do you take us for? I mean, There are people on this board, nay, on this THREAD who have several more years of formal education than you have; medical doctors, Ph.D. scientists and others. It might surprise you to know that you aren't the only one here who has published articles; some of them in journals much more prestigious than T-Mag. For you to think we can't see through this kind of verbal dodging and weaving is just downright insulting. I have listened to people (mostly newbies) defend you and say that you contribute but truthfully, I don't agree. The only thing you contribute is controversy and flame wars.

Then, there is the question of your motives and even your integrity. Believe me. I think long and hard before accusing anyone of lying, cheating or stealing because I loath those types of people so much. But, when you claim to be 50 yrs old with 20 to 30 yrs (sometimes you claim 20 and sometimes 30) of experience in bodybuilding but your website shows you to be a stick figure at 38 yrs old, one of those claims is untrue. Twelve years ago, you were emaciated and we are supposed to believe you were training and training others for at least 8 years prior? If you were, I sure as hell wouldn't take credit for it if I were you.

You make up some alter-ego to defend yourself on another board and get busted at it. Then you come here and say "Oh I knew they knew it was me all along." Geez-Laweez Nelson, that is just weak. Maybe you only did that once; I don't think anyone will ever know but it speaks volumes about your character even then.

Rest assured, if it ever becomes a question of you or Fonz leaving the board, you will get bulldozed.

 

[jubei]

Good post spidey, karma.

 

[Nelson Montana]

GREAT! Everyone is so convinced I'd get voted ogg. LET"S DO IT! At least I can go with a clear conscience that the majority has spoken. But I don't think it is the majority. I think it's just a handful of malcontents. Blah, blah, blah, you suck, you know nothing, you this, you that. Yawn. Do something about it or shut up. I'm sick of suffering fools.

SM: YOU WIN!!! Game over bro. YOU WIN!!! What more do you want? Oh yeah. You want me to explain the concepts of the ab and calve movement. Nope. Ain't gonna do it. Buy my book.

SPIDEY: Im disappointed. I thought you were smarter, but you 're just regurgitating the same half truth cliches' about me. I won't dignify the remarks with an answer.



Okay, who's ready to have me bulldozed? Let the voting begin! Not the threats. Not the big talk. Not the speculation. A majority vote to last one week. At the end of the week I'll be gone. Isn't it worth it?!



Nah, it'll never happen. Fonz and his cronies are too afraid he'll lose.

 

[jubei]

Thats right spidey I thought you were smarter than that too. How dare you disagree with NM you must be a complete moron.

 

[Spidey]

Uh oh. (hanging my head in shame). You guys are on to me now.

 

[kronk]

Guys and gals, get some final words in becuase I think its just about time to lock this thing up.

By the end of the day I will lock it, Peace and respect.

 

[Spidey]

Hey Fonz. I think the challange was extended to you so it falls to you to create the poll. This should get interesting.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Hey Fonz. I think the challange was extended to you so it falls to you to create the poll. This should get interesting.

It'll never happen. I say Fonz isn't man enough. Instead, his pals will close the thread because they fear he'll be made out to be a fool. They always do this when the going gets rough.

If there's to be a poll, there can not be any politicing. It must be straight up. Anonomous voting. At the end of one week we tally the votes. The loser leaves, never to return.

 

[sk*]

Why don't you make the poll Nelson?

-sk

 

[kronk]

Instead, his pals will close the thread because they fear he'll be made out to be a fool. They always do this when the going gets rough.

If this is directed at me because of my comment about locking this, I am a little offended. I had thought that the post had went on long enough and I was trying to be fair to all parties. If everyone wants it open then fine.

 

[Spidey]

It'll never happen. I say Fonz isn't man enough. Instead, his pals will close the thread because they fear he'll be made out to be a fool. They always do this when the going gets rough.

If there's to be a poll, there can not be any politicing. It must be straight up. Anonomous voting. At the end of one week we tally the votes. The loser leaves, never to return.

I must admit that sounds fair. I still think you are deluded but I guess we will all see for sure. I have no doubt that either you or Fonz will start the poll by tomorrow.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Why don't you make the poll Nelson?

-sk

Well, for one hing, I don't even think I can do it with this server. I don't know. Never did a poll. AT any rate, I figured it would be better if it were conducted by someone impartial, but that's doubtful.

But maybe anonomous voting isn't good, since people would vote more than once. Maybe, it should just be a "Poll Post" and everyone wrotes in Nelson, or Fonz. But then, some people might fear retaliation. Fonz, being a mod, has an advantage in that regrad.

I'd just say this; It's come to an empass that in the interest to all concerned Nelson and Fonz have agreed to the decision of thee members who must go and who can stay. It must be one or the other.

If anyone has any ideas to make it better, without making it stupidly complicated, I'm for it. Voting can be one week, or one month. Whatever's fair. But if it's just going to be the people who post on this thread by the end of the day, that's dumb and invalid. Do it right

 

[rjl296]

i just wanted to post on this long ass thread

 

[The_Eviscerator]

But maybe anonomous voting isn't good, since people would vote more than once. Maybe, it should just be a "Poll Post" and everyone wrotes in Nelson, or Fonz. But then, some people might fear retaliation. Fonz, being a mod, has an advantage in that regrad.

A poll will work... a user can only vote once on a particular poll... This whole thing is so melodramatic and ridiculous. Believe it or not, I find both you and Fonz great assets to the board. Fonz has set forth some interesting ideas on supplements and gear and his ideas and rationale are well thought out... Nelson, your post cycle formula of Avena, Nettle Root etc.. has really worked well for me...

The difference is how you would arrive at these assertions that you both make... For instance, you use the "boner" test for confirming post cycle recovery and Fonz will present charts, graphs and analytical data as to the hardness and fullness of the boner. So... this is where you guys split.

Nelson, on this topic, I disagree with you... as do many others. I have seen the results of High GI carb, protein drinks directly after training, vs a lower GI meal in my own body and the effects are vastly different. Just because you may be wrong on one point doesn't mean we have to kick someone off the island.

 

[powerforward]

a poll to get rid of one of you is stupid and pointless. if george wants one of his mods removed he will do it. if enough members complain about a mod/the mod will be removed.

if someone wants a member(non-mod removed) the can give them negative karma, if enough people give negative karma to a member he will be gone. no need for a poll.

i just wish the two of you(nelson and fonz) could debate with civility, it would better this forum and members would benefit greatly.both of you have some negative qualities(arrogance for one) but you both bring far more positive than negative.

i hope this doesn't come off as a flame to either one of you.

 

[kronk]

Well Nelson its clear that you are not going to answer my question. I have never done anything in regards to you that was unprofessional and I have always been direct with my comments. The fact that you skirted right around me after that post was disturbing.

As to the rest of this, it is all pointless. No mods are going to get removed, and Nelson you are here as well for now. I am locking this for now as I am sick of getting dragged into this horeshit for no reason. Nelson, you drug me into this and even went as far (in an email) as saying that I was editing your posts. I have also been fair and straight to the point with you and that proved to me that you just lash out in all directions regardless of who you are aiming at.

If you guys feel that this is unfair to lock, I apologize. But this is degrading to a point of no return. No matter how much this carries on it will never find a resolution. IMO, the posts on this thread speak for themselves, and people have enough to base their own judgments.

This thread is done. If you guys want to start polls do whatever you want.

Truly, Peace and Respect.

 

[Fonz]

Hey Fonz. I think the challange was extended to you so it falls to you to create the poll. This should get interesting.

Thats what he wants...to createturnmoil.

The solution is simple......everybody ignore his posts.

Lets see how he reacts when he has no audience.

And Nelson, in case you've forgotten.....it says "Moderator" under my name. Does it below your user name? No.

I have full jurisdiction in terminating a user I see as disruptive to the board. You on the other hand, don't.

So don't tempt me. Because I will do it. You're out of control.

Fonz