ALA for athletes

[luto199]

Nandi12, what about r-ala, would there be any difference with that?

 

[swimmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ALA for athletes

key phrase

But uh, it appears that one could be in ketosis and still have muscles filled with glycogen.

Correct?

 

[serge]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ALA for athletes

But uh, it appears that one could be in ketosis and still have muscles filled with glycogen.

Correct?

if one uses injectable insulin to force that state, INJECTABLE INSULIN is not ALA is it?

 

[swimmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ALA for athletes

if one uses injectable insulin to force that state, INJECTABLE INSULIN is not ALA is it?

I don't believe it is.

Anyways, I thought the big deal about ALA was that you could eat a whole bunch of carbs and still remain in ketosis, as it gets more glycogen from the liver to muscles than would happen if you were not on ALA.

 

[nandi12]

Actually, neither muscle or liver glycogen need be zero for ketogenesis to occur. There is simply an inverse correlation between liver glycogen and ketones. Whenever the liver is producing glucose via gluconeogenesis, which happens almost all the time, except when insulin levels are high right after a meal, ketone bodies are formed. They are an inevitable byproduct of gluconeogenesis. The greater the demand for glucose, whether from starvation, exercise, or hypoglycemia, or whatever, the more ketones are produced. For instance, when hypoglycemia is induced with insulin, the liver generates glucose both by breaking down its own glycogen, and by forming new glucose from amino acids and fat derived glycerol. Ketone bodies are formed during that gluconeogenesis, even though there is still plenty of glycogen left in the liver.

 

[swimmar]

Well, yes, ketones are made all the time. But ketosis is defined as when there is a greater amount of ketones in the bloodstream than glucose, is it not?

 

[nandi12]

Anyways, I thought the big deal about ALA was that you could eat a whole bunch of carbs and still remain in ketosis, as it gets more glycogen from the liver to muscles than would happen if you were not on ALA.

What lead you to believe this? Marketing hype. Where are "the whole bunch of carbs" going to go?

Skeletal muscle uses primarily fat as its fuel, so they won't be burned there. Glycogen synthase levels determine how much glucose that is taken up by muscle is turned into glycogen. ALA does not elevate glycogen synthase; on the contrary by lowering insulin it lowers glycogen synthase. So all that glucose won't be turned into glycogen and stored in muscle. That leaves uptake by fat cells and conversion to fat, or uptake by the liver for storage as glycogen, or uptake by the liver and conversion to fat which is then transported to fat cells for storage. Do those sound like attractive options?

 

[fhg43]

I guess we need to start some "ALA Sucks" threads.

FHG

 

[swimmar]

What lead you to believe this? Marketing hype. Where are "the whole bunch of carbs" going to go?

Skeletal muscle uses primarily fat as its fuel, so they won't be burned there. Glycogen synthase levels determine how much glucose that is taken up by muscle is turned into glycogen. ALA does not elevate glycogen synthase; on the contrary by lowering insulin it lowers glycogen synthase. So all that glucose won't be turned into glycogen and stored in muscle. That leaves uptake by fat cells and conversion to fat, or uptake by the liver for storage as glycogen, or uptake by the liver and conversion to fat which is then transported to fat cells for storage. Do those sound like attractive options?

Woah. I thought glycogen was the prefered fuel for skeletal muscles (for intensive work).

Anyways, a quick medline search shows that most research on ALA has been done on type-2 diabetics, as you probably know by now. So I realize that there's no PROOF that ALA will do all these amazing things in a normal human. However, most people on this board seem to report somewhat good results with taking ALA before a meal with carbs, some people have reported being able to take in amounts in excess of 200 carbs a day and still remain in ketosis. Even though there are no studies to prove that this is correct, I don't think there's any studies that prove that this is incorrect.

 

[swimmar]

ALA does not elevate glycogen synthase; on the contrary by lowering insulin it lowers glycogen synthase. So all that glucose won't be turned into glycogen and stored in muscle.

This is the exact opposite of what others on this board have reported.

Are you saying that a decrease in insulin, must, under any circumstance, leads to glucose being converted directly to fat? And ALA does not improve glycogen transport?