Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *debate from another board*

[-SD-]

I ask this not because I think its right but because the question was posed on another board and I disagreed and someone posted this as reason why businesses should get to discriminate any way they choose:
"So you don't think private business or property owners should have the right to serve or rent to whoever they want? The fact that you're laughing is sad. You are so conditioned to having the gubbmint tell you what to do that the idea of deciding for yourself is laughable. If you want to discriminate against bald guys that should be your right. If it pisses enough people off, and it might, the marketplace would correct your foolishness. People will refuse to do business with you."

"Here's a little thought experiment for you, a risk I know. If black workers really do work harder and smarter for less money and business owner A refuses to hire any because he's a racist SOB while business owner B makes a point of hiring only black workers who, assuming they are in the same business, has a better chance of succeeding? Does this make what I say about the marketplace clearer?"

 

[milo hobgoblin]

I actually agree.. in a free market.. the market should correct the disparity.

If a business wont hire minorities.. then minorities wont shop there and he is screwed..

in any case.. who are we to tell someone how they run their business...

 

[jh1]

The laws to protect minorities were put there when the market wouldn't have corrected itself.

Today they probably aren't needed so much, market would correct properly - most likely.

However - no politician would have the nuts to propose getting rid of laws that protect minorities. LMAO @ that.

 

[PICK3]

I'm str8

I'm a minority on EF.

just sayin

 

[army_stud]

Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.

Next time you fill out the EEO section on a job application, put you're two or more races or that you're African American (even if you're not). If they question it, tell them your great, great grandma was part black. It still helps them match their percentage quota and it gets back at the system.

 

[jh1]

Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.

Next time you fill out the EEO section on a job application, put you're two or more races or that you're African American (even if you're not). If they question it, tell them your great, great grandma was part black. It still helps them match their percentage quota and it gets back at the system.

Ah.... Lie.

Good plan.

 

[army_stud]

Ah.... Lie.

Good plan.

Race is subjective. I'm 1/32 Native American, so technically I'm two or more races. Same for whites whose ancestry is from Africa, but they're white.

The only things that seperates the races are things like EEO, BET and all black colleges.

 

[jh1]

Race is subjective. I'm 1/32 Native American, so technically I'm two or more races. Same for whites whose ancestry is from Africa, but they're white.

The only things that seperates the races are things like EEO, BET and all black colleges.

Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.

Next time you fill out the EEO section on a job application, put you're two or more races or that you're African American (even if you're not). If they question it, tell them your great, great grandma was part black. It still helps them match their percentage quota and it gets back at the system.

Ah.... Lie.

Good plan.

 

[EnderJE]

I think that they should in a free market. You and I don't have a completely free market.

 

[ZKaudio]

If the government would keep their f'ing hands off things, maybe we could approach a free market.

flat tax is the first step.

 

[dead_reggin_storage_fashi]

If the government would keep their f'ing hands off things, maybe we could approach a free market.

flat tax is the first step.

the single greatest thing I experianced about living and earning in Hong Kong. Flat tax.

it wont work this country cuz ya'll USA is a progressive society. IE more earnings more taxes.

 

[redsamurai]

well, since this economy has moved past the local mom and pop outlets that basically covered all of our needs and everybody knew everybody................the market in fact "DOESN"T" correct these sort of problems. This exact same argument has been used to me by Misces capitalists who espouse a complete capitalist society, the private ownership of EVERYTHING.........no government.

So I was told that if a private company started dumping toxic waste into a river somewhere on the east coast, that even all the way over on the west coast people would find out about this and not buy their products........ie market correction. Well sportsfans, this is a dream.......a whisper in the wind. Do you fathom how many consumer choices we make on any given week, let alone a day?? Are you suggesting we are to consult some consumer index of proper industrial ethics for EVERY LITTLE SINGLE PURCHASE?? Think about it, think of everything you buy in a month.............how many different companies do you think you're buying from?? And you think you can check out all of them even under the ideal circumstance that someone is actually really keeping track of every company out there and what they're doing?? so back to the original topic..........just how well would the market really correct a racist company? I can see for "high profile" companies whose business practices might be talked about on the nightly news...........but what about the people that make your shit paper? your vitamins, your bug spray, whatever, I mean the list fuckin goes on..........it would be a MONUMENTAL undertaking to track all this bullshit let alone put it down cogently in some sort of consumer index. And now with globilization it's going to be near impossible.

 

[ZKaudio]

doesn't take a government to assign a economic value to environmental damage, only logic. If people had morals, this would all work. Sigh.

 

[redsamurai]

doesn't take a government to assign a economic value to environmental damage, only logic. If people had morals, this would all work. Sigh.

human greed is inate........hence we'll always fuck up whether we're socialists or capitalists. Somebody has to come up with something better.

 

[gjohnson5]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

This scenario assumes
1. that the majority really gives a rats ass about what the minority thinks
2. there's enough of the minority to hurt the bottom line of the business owner

As we all know both are false...

I actually agree.. in a free market.. the market should correct the disparity.

If a business wont hire minorities.. then minorities wont shop there and he is screwed..

in any case.. who are we to tell someone how they run their business...

 

[ZKaudio]

we all have equal rights now, race is not an issue... only workplace performance.

 

[Lestat]

i think the point here is that society determins what is illegal and what is legal as a group, for example, if everyone gets together and says drinking alcohol is a crime, then look! All of a sudden it is!

So we got together as a group and decided that NO employer, private or public, should be able to discriminate based on some specific things (baldness isn't one of them). They are mainly age, race, religion, and physical handicap).

How is that hard to see the logic of?

Or it is the reasoning behind why we feel it should be illegal that is getting you? That is tougher to help with. If you believe discrimination based on race is ok for any reason, then you are I disagree on some fundamentals of human existence and how we ought treat each other.

 

[Dial_tone]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

The only things that seperates the races are things like EEO, BET and all black colleges.

of which there are none....N-O-N-E.

 

[gjohnson5]

The ignorance and denial in this thread is numbing...

sigh....

 

[Powerbuilder333]

Of course racism still exists in America.
Our government is to serve all Americans, so rasicm of any sort in government shouldn't be tolerated.
In the private sector you should have the right to decide who you sell to, who you hire, who you let on your private property, ect.
It's called freedom.

 

[nimbus]

because our representatives feel that racist companies are detrimental to society, and don't want them in our country.

 

[army_stud]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

of which there are none....N-O-N-E.

What? You're saying there are no black colleges?

 

[redsamurai]

"ideally" this country should be a meritocracy.........like football, you don't perform, you don't play. Unfortunately..........we all don't start out on the same footing in this country. IF a kid in east L.A could be assured a reasonable education close to if not on par with every other kid in the country, than things would be different. But on this subject I must say this............we should be stationing the national guard at some public schools around the country. And not just at the school, but the surrounding neighborhoods. Because part of the problem resides with the culture that some of these kids grow up in. When you're raised in these conditions.........nobody makes it out unless "someone" gives them a break they wouldn't normally get.

 

[army_stud]

"ideally" this country should be a meritocracy.........like football, you don't perform, you don't play. Unfortunately..........we all don't start out on the same footing in this country. IF a kid in east L.A could be assured a reasonable education close to if not on par with every other kid in the country, than things would be different. But on this subject I must say this............we should be stationing the national guard at some public schools around the country. And not just at the school, but the surrounding neighborhoods. Because part of the problem resides with the culture that some of these kids grow up in. When you're raised in these conditions.........nobody makes it out unless "someone" gives them a break they wouldn't normally get.

If I was a minority I would view that as an insult. To me, that would mean that I'm not capable of surviving in this world without someone taking care of me.

My grandpa grew up on a dirt floor with 5 brothers. His dad was blind from a coal mining accident and his mom died from an unknown cause. They all farmed for their food and boxed for pennies. All of them volunteered for WWll and every single one of them went to college and obtained graduate degrees, with absolutely no Government assistance (or GI bill).

You're right when you say it's a culture issue. But giving these people more handouts (breaks) is definitely not the answer.

 

[redsamurai]

If I was a minority I would view that as an insult. To me, that would mean that I'm not capable of surviving in this world without someone taking care of me.

It's very evident that you're not a minority........else you would understand that it's not about "someone taking care of someone else", it's about a level playing field. That is the topic at hand..........no?

My grandpa grew up on a dirt floor with 5 brothers. His dad was blind from a coal mining accident and his mom died from an unknown cause. They all farmed for their food and boxed for pennies. All of them volunteered for WWll and every single one of them went to college and obtained graduate degrees, with absolutely no Government assistance (no GI bill).

You're right when you say it's a culture issue. But giving these people more handouts (breaks) is definitely not the answer.

A) The time you're speaking of is long past........it mineswell be a different world.

B) "handouts" are not at issue here............equality in opportunity is.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Coming from a long line of self-employment I have to say that any private company should be free to hire whomever they wish.

 

[army_stud]

It's very evident that you're not a minority........else you would understand that it's not about "someone taking care of someone else", it's about a level playing field. That is the topic at hand..........no?

A) The time you're speaking of is long past........it mineswell be a different world.

B) "handouts" are not at issue here............equality in opportunity is.

Are you saying that as a white male, you have a greater opportunity at getting into college and getting a good job than a minority? Affirmitive Action has made the playing field very uneven for the white male.

Affitmitive Action does nothing but make minorities feel inadequate and piss a lot of white people off.

 

[redsamurai]

Are you saying that as a white male, you have a greater opportunity at getting into college and getting a good job than a minority? Affirmitive Action has made the playing field very uneven for the white male.

Affitmitive Action does nothing but make minorities feel inadequate and piss a lot of white people off.

It's more who you know now..........if you're a white guy and don't know anybody, it doesn't matter how brilliant you are, you're going to struggle. Affirmitive action at least helps minorities get jobs because for the most part they're not going to know anyone. Yeah it's bullshit, everything should be a meritocracy. But my friend in california who's a masters in Econ, and a brilliant mother fuckin guy...........took over a year to find a job. And he's costa rican............but he looks white, I mean bald head goatee powerlifting white. It's only his name that gives away that he's of south american descent. Anyway, affirmitive actino apparently doesn't work too well unless you "look" the part. I would be lucky to have "half" the talent that this kid has, but I could find a better paying job than him because of my families connections. I actually tried to see if my ole man knew someone in L.A that could give this kid a break...........but he didn't know anyone in that field. It's a shitty world...................

 

[Bikini Mod]

Incidentally when I was married to my ex we were a small electrical contracting company. At the time we were in a recession in an attempt to put more non-union electrical contractors out of business the unions employed a tactic called *salting* (can't remember what that stood for now). Anyway we were looking to hire employees so they sent someone (who had no interest in the position, nor was he qualified to fill the position we were looking to fill) which we didn't hire. So the union went after us claiming that we discriminated. My ex (the pussy that he was) started to pee himself so he went to his big bad electrical contractors association that he hung out with once a month (to drink and trade stories about how best to fuck everyone and whatever else mundane useless bullshit they talked about in an attempt to get out of having to take care of their familial responsibilities that night) so they could actually help him out of this bullshit nightmare. You know the association lawyer told him?

*chuckle*

"Man, you are fucked. This'll cost you 'bout 10K if you get off cheap and 25K if it gets nasty."

So my ex starts peeing on himself with fear.

I was also just about to pop with our fourth kid in five years, took care of all the administrative work, housework and ALL of the children by myself.

MAN WAS I PISSED.

So I sat my ass down and started a campaign against the UNION FUCKERS that were trying to put us out of business with this UTTER BULLSHIT.

I did so just around the time our baby was born.

No lawyer, just ME.

To this day my ex seems to have forgotten how hard I busted MY ASS for our business (that I gave him ALL RIGHTS TO). But that's got nothing to do with the topic at hand....

Last time I checked this was the United States of America which meant that I was free to hire whomever I felt was the best qualified candidate for the job. I am FIERCE and UNCOMPROMISING when it comes to matters like this.

 

[Dial_tone]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

What? You're saying there are no black colleges?

read your post. You said 'all black colleges'. There are no ALL black colleges. Most predominately black colleges are more integrated than white schools.

 

[army_stud]

Last time I checked this was the United States of America which meant that I was free to hire whomever I felt was the best qualified candidate for the job. I am FIERCE and UNCOMPROMISING when it comes to matters like this.

That was a perfect example of a country going too far left.

That's the problem in America, we can't hire the best person for the job. Same goes for freedom of expression in the workplace.

 

[army_stud]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

read your post. You said 'all black colleges'. There are no ALL black colleges. Most predominately black colleges are more integrated than white schools.

Look up some statistics on these schools

Dillard University, New Orleans, La. ---- 99.5% Black
Johnson C. Smith University, Charlotte, N.C ---- 99.9% Black
Southern University and A&M College, ---- 97.8% Black
Spelman College, Atlanta, Ga. ---- 97.8% Black
Tuskegee University, Tuskegee, ---- 97.9% Black

And many other smaller Universities that are 99.9% black.

You call this intergration? Show me a college that is even 95% all white.

 

[crazyjoe]

.... any private company should be free to hire whomever they wish.

True Dat!

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

This scenario assumes
1. that the majority really gives a rats ass about what the minority thinks
2. there's enough of the minority to hurt the bottom line of the business owner

As we all know both are false...

I disagree.. I think theer are enough of the majority that wouldnt shop at a place that discriminated...especially in Southern California..

I wouldnt buy from a place that refused to hire blacks.

 

[ZKaudio]

for all the people saying there are crappy schools and crappy neighborhoods... this is a free country, you can f'ing move whenever and whereever you please. If you choose to live in a racist southern state, then you really aren't doing all you can to make your situation any better.

 

[Dial_tone]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

Look up some statistics on these schools

Dillard University, New Orleans, La. ---- 99.5% Black
Johnson C. Smith University, Charlotte, N.C ---- 99.9% Black
Southern University and A&M College, ---- 97.8% Black
Spelman College, Atlanta, Ga. ---- 97.8% Black
Tuskegee University, Tuskegee, ---- 97.9% Black

And many other smaller Universities that are 99.9% black.

You call this intergration? Show me a college that is even 95% all white.

You make this way too easy. Bluefield State College and West Virginia State University now have student bodies that are less than 15 percent black. At Lincoln University in Missouri blacks are only 35 percent of the student body. These three institutions continue to be classified as HBCUs by the Education Department.

University of Georgia has about 6% black enrollment in a state thats over 25% black. I'm guessing you don't call University of Georgia an all-white school? Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[redsamurai]

for all the people saying there are crappy schools and crappy neighborhoods... this is a free country, you can f'ing move whenever and whereever you please. If you choose to live in a racist southern state, then you really aren't doing all you can to make your situation any better.

you can fuckin move wherever you want?? We have proffessional people on this very board who have said it would be difficult for them to move somewhere where they don't have family because they don't/can't have the savings with today's economy keeping alot of people "just" above the waterline. Now you're saying poor people who live off social programs, who by the way aren't/can't be saving dick...........you're saying these people can just up and move wherever they want?? Ok, if they're single people......fine, but moving families?? Dude............please................all I'm asking is common sense. Some of the "seemingly" elitist rhetoric that I hear from people here is "really" fuckin disturbing. It goes to show that there is a huge segment of the population in this country that is seriously oblivious to the living conditions and work environments of alot of people in this society.

I mean fuck, it took me a couple months to find an apartment in cali that was willing to rent to me...........now my credit isn't perfect, but it's not bad either. Yet I had to get a co-signer just to live in an efficiency in a suburb of san francisco that was predominantly latino...........this wasn't "the burbs". It wasn't ganglan mind you.........but it wasn't plush.

 

[binö]

you can fuckin move wherever you want?? We have proffessional people on this very board who have said it would be difficult for them to move somewhere where they don't have family because they don't/can't have the savings with today's economy keeping alot of people "just" above the waterline. Now you're saying poor people who live off social programs, who by the way aren't/can't be saving dick...........you're saying these people can just up and move wherever they want?? Ok, if they're single people......fine, but moving families?? Dude............please................all I'm asking is common sense. Some of the "seemingly" elitist rhetoric that I hear from people here is "really" fuckin disturbing. It goes to show that there is a huge segment of the population in this country that is seriously oblivious to the living conditions and work environments of alot of people in this society.

I mean fuck, it took me a couple months to find an apartment in cali that was willing to rent to me...........now my credit isn't perfect, but it's not bad either. Yet I had to get a co-signer just to live in an efficiency in a suburb of san francisco that was predominantly latino...........this wasn't "the burbs". It wasn't ganglan mind you.........but it wasn't plush.

it didn't stop bros from moving south to north in the industrial boom

 

[redsamurai]

it didn't stop bros from moving south to north in the industrial boom

the "industrial boom"???...............how long ago are we talkin here bro? If you're talkin about the industrial boom of the early 1900's......that has no bearing today, totally different time and place.

 

[army_stud]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

You make this way too easy. Bluefield State College and West Virginia State University now have student bodies that are less than 15 percent black. At Lincoln University in Missouri blacks are only 35 percent of the student body. These three institutions continue to be classified as HBCUs by the Education Department.

University of Georgia has about 6% black enrollment in a state thats over 25% black. I'm guessing you don't call University of Georgia an all-white school? Yeah, I didn't think so.

I asked a very simple question. Name a school that is over 95% white, like many of the "diversified" black colleges who are over 95% black. University of Georgia is not one of them. Many black students want to go to colleges with larger black populations, such as historically black Morehouse and Spelman in Atlanta. And many want to be in Atlanta itself, because it is close to home or because of its vibrant black social life, thus attending GA State University because it's closer to Atlanta.

Do you think these schools have low black ENROLLMENT because the schools are racist bigots? Or is much more simple; are they not scoring high enough on entry requirements and/or these blacks want to be closer to the bigger cities?

Furethermore, how could you justify a school that is over 99% black in Charlotte NC, whereas 50% of the local population is white?

Is this equality?

 

[binö]

the "industrial boom"???...............how long ago are we talkin here bro? If you're talkin about the industrial boom of the early 1900's......that has no bearing today, totally different time and place.

same hunger, same country.
people are naturally lured to money making areas.
if not they die.
it's def not easy just to pickup and bounce, but it can and is done daily by all sorts of people

 

[redsamurai]

same hunger, same country.
people are naturally lured to money making areas.
if not they die.
it's def not easy just to pickup and bounce, but it can and is done daily by all sorts of people

alot of those men left their families behind..............this society has changed too much, so if there's men out there that are actually taking care of their families and children........they should not be encouraged to leave.

And no.........this is NOT the same country bor...........I mean not even close.

 

[army_stud]

the "industrial boom"???...............how long ago are we talkin here bro? If you're talkin about the industrial boom of the early 1900's......that has no bearing today, totally different time and place.

I believe Moltke is implying the same as I was earlier. I've seen many impoverished people overcome their hardships and become very successful. Many of them will agree that too much Government assistance is counter-productive, look at the Indians.

 

[redsamurai]

I believe Moltke is implying the same as I was earlier. I've seen many impoverished people overcome their hardships and become very successful. Many of them will agree that too much Government assistance is counter-productive, look at the Indians.

esplain??

 

[-SD-]

alot of those men left their families behind..............this society has changed too much, so if there's men out there that are actually taking care of their families and children........they should not be encouraged to leave.

And no.........this is NOT the same country bor...........I mean not even close.

Yea, the problem now is men simply leave their families/divorce, for whatever reason. So youre right, a lots changed. I think one thing that will never change is poor people finding a way to make a better life by leaving for a place that holds more promise. Immigrants have been doing it for centuries and I would imagine they have a rougher go at it than a regular poor family that is already assimilated into America. People find a way to make it happen if they want to. If they didnt we would all still be living in the original 13 colonies.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

i think anti discrimination laws, however ballbreaking, are ultimately in societys favour because i think a homogenous workforce is better for the economy

im a complete noob at US laws but so long as theyre reasonable, then you should be able to pick whoever you like to work for you anyway. it should reasonably come down to your interviews and selection criteria documentation

correct me if im wrong of course but i cant see how keeping records of demonstrable work performance differences between candidates would control litigation risk

 

[redsamurai]

Yea, the problem now is men simply leave their families/divorce, for whatever reason. So youre right, a lots changed. I think one thing that will never change is poor people finding a way to make a better life by leaving for a place that holds more promise. Immigrants have been doing it for centuries and I would imagine they have a rougher go at it than a regular poor family that is already assimilated into America. People find a way to make it happen if they want to. If they didnt we would all still be living in the original 13 colonies.

Right now, I just don't see a reason for anyone to move anywhere in the U.S............cause it's all generally the same. Middle class jobby jobs are GONE..........so flippin burgers is about all you can aspire too. That's life I guess..........but then I want to hear people on TV keep it real by admitting the "american dream" is a contrived farce. But as soon as they say that..........people are going to say "ok......guess we got to hustle to make it by".............lawlessness ensues.

 

[layinback]

i think anti discrimination laws, however ballbreaking, are ultimately in societys favour because i think a homogenous workforce is better for the economy

im a complete noob at US laws but so long as theyre reasonable, then you should be able to pick whoever you like to work for you anyway. it should reasonably come down to your interviews and selection criteria documentation

correct me if im wrong of course but i cant see how keeping records of demonstrable work performance differences between candidates would control litigation risk

paper trail always controls litigation.....sometimes stops it in its tracks. keeping appropriate records on my employees has saved my ass more than once.

 

[-SD-]

Right now, I just don't see a reason for anyone to move anywhere in the U.S............cause it's all generally the same. Middle class jobby jobs are GONE..........so flippin burgers is about all you can aspire too. That's life I guess..........but then I want to hear people on TV keep it real by admitting the "american dream" is a contrived farce. But as soon as they say that..........people are going to say "ok......guess we got to hustle to make it by".............lawlessness ensues.

Why are middle class jobby jobs gone? Not quite sure what you mean by those jobs but Im guessing its the type of job Im about to get when I graduate (Im getting access to nothing but $50k/yr starting salary jobs now in my last year of school).

 

[Dial_tone]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

Do you think these schools have low black ENROLLMENT because the schools are racist bigots? Or is much more simple; are they not scoring high enough on entry requirements and/or these blacks want to be closer to the bigger cities?
?

and do you think the reason black schools don't have more white students is that they're racist bigots? or that white students don't apply? How many of your white friends from high school do you think even considered going to a black school?

 

[army_stud]

Right now, I just don't see a reason for anyone to move anywhere in the U.S............cause it's all generally the same. Middle class jobby jobs are GONE..........so flippin burgers is about all you can aspire too. That's life I guess..........but then I want to hear people on TV keep it real by admitting the "american dream" is a contrived farce. But as soon as they say that..........people are going to say "ok......guess we got to hustle to make it by".............lawlessness ensues.

I disagree about the middle class jobby jobs being gone. There are TONS of great jobs out there. The problem is too many recent college grads think they're going to graduate with a bachelor's degree and become CEO of some major corporation. If you want a high paying job, then you must suck it up and attend school, school and more school. Otherwise it's all about connections....

 

[army_stud]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

and do you think the reason black schools don't have more white students is that they're racist bigots? or that white students don't apply? How many of your white friends from high school do you think even considered going to a black school?

The whole appeal of attending a school that prides itself on its 99% black students doesn't necessarily hit home.

As I'm sure a school that happily boasted its 99% white attendance wouldn't appeal to a black person (even though that would never be allowed).

You can clearly see, it's the black colleges who are discriminating on race. Hypocrisy.

 

[eddymerckx]

private companies can discriminate--just have less than 15 employees---except that they may be subject to state discrimination laws.

also, discrimination of any sort is almost impossible to prove (in court) on a small scale and thus the fear of acting in a discriminatory manner is way overblown. Most of the actual and damaging discrimination is not blatant but under the guise of some other reasoning or beliefs.

just my .02

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Re: Why shouldnt private companies be able to discriminate however they choose? *deba

paper trail always controls litigation.....sometimes stops it in its tracks. keeping appropriate records on my employees has saved my ass more than once.

yah working in pharmacy has taught me the benefits of good records. people say all sorts of stuff, but when you have supporting docs disputing you just shrug your shoulders and ask if they really want to go to court to shovel money into a fire