The Patriot Act in Work

[HS Lifter]

You have PMS

Man you are on to me, I figured it would be a nice change up to the board for a chick to act like a guy, instead of the other way around.

Midol KICKS ASS!!

This thread is uselless without cock shots!!

 

[Testosterone boy]

Imagine the "Patriot Act" circa 1770s, with the british and the terrorist americans...

George, Ben, John Hancock, Tom, John Adams, Alexander..........................some of the greatest terrorists that England ever faced.

 

[JKerry]

Hello? It's called delayed search warrant and it has been in use long before the Patriot Act. You seem to think that the government would invade your privacy with NO probable cause. Wrong! Maybe you should read Dalia v US

but doesn't the government also need suitable probable cause that they could have attained a search warrant had time permitted the investigators to aquire one?

If you're a terrorist, it would be considered collaborating. I'm sure there are strict guidelines on this. If I am incorrect, I would like you to give me the section number of the Patriot Act that states what you are claiming.

so me, as a private citizen is to be considered a terrorist while i am curious as to whether or not someone has been searching for info. on me? i'm not looking at this from the aspect that i am a potential terrorist. i'm considering myself a citizen whom the government has the power and ability to seize information on.

same thing with records from most anywhere. yeah, just like the millions of other people in the US. Records are easy to access legally if you know what you're doing. Also, cops can do the same thing... it's called NCIC and it's been used for years.

NCIC has info on criminals, not law abiding citizens. slight difference. it is not easy to access info on other people legally. whether or not you/someone else is accessing that info on me legally is between my lawyer and the courts and whatever organization/info system is giving out the info.

Yep, they can! And if I have your social security number and your name, I can too! When agents are already this far, that means they've already built up significant evidence that you are involved in terroristic activities. You've elicited enough interest to them for them to go this far.

perhaps you can, but how are you going to aquire my SS number? the feds have it already. you could only do it while posing as me, which would not be legal. i don't have to have elicited enough anything. it's not a question of whether i've acted suspiciously. it's that they have the ability without probably cause. i'm not saying they will, i'm saying they are able. my car can go 120, i'm not saying i will drive it that fast, i'm saying it's able to go that fast. i'm not comfortable with the government having that ability without any due process.

But I think you've been reading too many Alex Jones web pages, and are eager to scream that the government is coming after you.

or are you to eager to scream that the terrorists are after you?

let us also not forget that Under the Patriot Act, someone can be arrested and held indefinitely without bail and without being charged with a crime. these people are considered "war criminals". an american citizen has already gone through this... hear me, an AMERICAN CITIZEN, hello bill of right?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

but doesn't the government also need suitable probable cause that they could have attained a search warrant had time permitted the investigators to aquire one? I'm not getting what you're trying to say here. The government, state or local, are allowed to covertly search your house, as long as they have pursued a search warrant first (even if they don't have the actual paper, as long as they asked a judge for it).



so me, as a private citizen is to be considered a terrorist while i am curious as to whether or not someone has been searching for info. on me? i'm not looking at this from the aspect that i am a potential terrorist. i'm considering myself a citizen whom the government has the power and ability to seize information on. Again, I am not 100% on this part, but if a citizen is inquiring about if someone searched them, there is nothing illegal about that. However, if you rendered enough suspicion for terroristic activities, then that is an active and ongoing CASE, and for their safety and the case's safety in certain situations, they can ask a judge to file some type of gag order (i think that's how it works???). The government has no reason to seize and put a gag order on your information if you're a law abiding citizen.



NCIC has info on criminals, not law abiding citizens. slight difference. it is not easy to access info on other people legally. whether or not you/someone else is accessing that info on me legally is between my lawyer and the courts and whatever organization/info system is giving out the info. Well, you only mentioned 'records' that could mean any record. Anyways, if I have your name I could access, legally, a lot about you. How do you think you get spam? How do you think they know your name? They sell your info. Most people don't even read the small print on documents that they sign.



perhaps you can, but how are you going to aquire my SS number? the feds have it already. you could only do it while posing as me, which would not be legal. I was just trying to illustrate to you, that your personal information is NOT considered sacred or 100% private. When you surf the net, a lot of information about you is being gathered, and you don't even know it.



i don't have to have elicited enough anything. it's not a question of whether i've acted suspiciously. it's that they have the ability without probably cause. They have to have a form of PC, otherwise you're not on their radar. They don't have the resources to just search anyone's information for no reason at all -- in fact, I think doing that is illegal. I'm sure some agents have done it, but for personal reasons, which isn't cool.



i'm not saying they will, i'm saying they are able. my car can go 120, i'm not saying i will drive it that fast, i'm saying it's able to go that fast. i'm not comfortable with the government having that ability without any due process.A cop has a gun. He probably won't shoot anyone during his whole career. Does that mean he should not have the gun? I mean, he's probably not going to shoot anyone anyways, so why bother even having the gun? The Patriot Act is like the government's gun. They only use it when they have to. It aids them in convicting and jailing terrorists, and people who want to destroy this Country. As far as the due process goes, due process and crime control have always conflicted. They are balanced out by the US Supreme Court, hence the 'equal scales' -- I have yet to see the Patriot Act brought to the USSC. Yet....



or are you to eager to scream that the terrorists are after you?

let us also not forget that Under the Patriot Act, someone can be arrested and held indefinitely without bail and without being charged with a crime. these people are considered "war criminals". an american citizen has already gone through this... hear me, an AMERICAN CITIZEN, hello bill of right? This does not apply to US citizens, it only applies to aliens in the US. The alien who gets detained is only detained the length it takes to deport them (reference to DHS/BICE to see how long it takes a detainee to get deported). If the alien is considered to be a significant risk to national security, then the detainee will be held longer. The DOJ uses this ability only in very significant cases.



Right now, I am done arguing this. I am not 100% for the Patriot Act, but I like it and I think it will be a great detector of terrorism, and it will give us more power to prosecute and get rid of terrorists within the US.

 

[Razorguns]

The government has had the POWER to break into your house (with awarrant), tap your phones and net (with a warrant) and take picture sof you coming out of your house (w/no warrant) since the COLD WAR.

How else do you think they took down the mob in the 70's?

I love how people whine the patriot act gives them so much power -- yet they'd have that power for DECADES!

 

[Testosterone boy]

The government has had the POWER to break into your house (with awarrant), tap your phones and net (with a warrant) and take picture sof you coming out of your house (w/no warrant) since the COLD WAR.

How else do you think they took down the mob in the 70's?

I love how people whine the patriot act gives them so much power -- yet they'd have that power for DECADES!

How many pages is the Patriot Act?

It is clear that it grants a multitude os sweeping new powers and possible intrusions and loss of rights.

Maybe they bagged one guy from it so far?

 

[Razorguns]

They've passed SIMILAR laws aimed at destroying the drug cartels in the 80s. I didn't see americans whine back then at all the "sweeping powers" the DEA had.

 

[strongsmartsexy]

The government has had the POWER to break into your house (with awarrant), tap your phones and net (with a warrant) and take picture sof you coming out of your house (w/no warrant) since the COLD WAR.

How else do you think they took down the mob in the 70's?

I love how people whine the patriot act gives them so much power -- yet they'd have that power for DECADES!

Cool, then kill the Patriot Act, it appears to be redundant...

 

[JKerry]

The government, state or local, are allowed to covertly search your house, as long as they have pursued a search warrant first (even if they don't have the actual paper, as long as they asked a judge for it).
--- i don't believe this is an accurate statement, unless all my law professors/text books are lying to me.

Again, I am not 100% on this part, but if a citizen is inquiring about if someone searched them, there is nothing illegal about that. However, if you rendered enough suspicion for terroristic activities, then that is an active and ongoing CASE, and for their safety and the case's safety in certain situations, they can ask a judge to file some type of gag order (i think that's how it works???). The government has no reason to seize and put a gag order on your information if you're a law abiding citizen.

---if someone at my school office tells me that info was requested on me due to the patriot act, they can be charged criminally. again, in reference to the rest of this section i'm not considering myself a terrorist, so the rest is not important. i'm merely stating the ability of the government to eliminate due process from the situation due to the sweeping powers of the patriot act.

NCIC has info on criminals, not law abiding citizens. slight difference. it is not easy to access info on other people legally. whether or not you/someone else is accessing that info on me legally is between my lawyer and the courts and whatever organization/info system is giving out the info. Well, you only mentioned 'records' that could mean any record. Anyways, if I have your name I could access, legally, a lot about you. How do you think you get spam? How do you think they know your name? They sell your info. Most people don't even read the small print on documents that they sign.

---however, if someone is signing a document they seen as consenting to the small print regardless of whether they read it or not. if you consent to whatever, they can legally do it. i can't just go calling X and requesting info on someone else. ok, i can request it, however, what they give out regarding that person is where the law kicks in.

perhaps you can, but how are you going to aquire my SS number? the feds have it already. you could only do it while posing as me, which would not be legal. I was just trying to illustrate to you, that your personal information is NOT considered sacred or 100% private. When you surf the net, a lot of information about you is being gathered, and you don't even know it.

---i'm not talking about spybots on the computer, this is a relatively new field of law and is far from being extensively covered. however, i do feel that alot of this will change in the not to distant future.

i don't have to have elicited enough anything. it's not a question of whether i've acted suspiciously. it's that they have the ability without probably cause. They have to have a form of PC, otherwise you're not on their radar. They don't have the resources to just search anyone's information for no reason at all -- in fact, I think doing that is illegal. I'm sure some agents have done it, but for personal reasons, which isn't cool.

---they do have the ability to search/get most anything through a closed hearing thus eliminating your due process of law. answer this, has the gov't ever lied? has it ever made a mistake? now, these possibilities infringe on my rights as a citizen and that's what i disagree with.


i'm not saying they will, i'm saying they are able. my car can go 120, i'm not saying i will drive it that fast, i'm saying it's able to go that fast. i'm not comfortable with the government having that ability without any due process.A cop has a gun. He probably won't shoot anyone during his whole career. Does that mean he should not have the gun? I mean, he's probably not going to shoot anyone anyways, so why bother even having the gun? The Patriot Act is like the government's gun. They only use it when they have to. It aids them in convicting and jailing terrorists, and people who want to destroy this Country. As far as the due process goes, due process and crime control have always conflicted. They are balanced out by the US Supreme Court, hence the 'equal scales' -- I have yet to see the Patriot Act brought to the USSC. Yet....



or are you to eager to scream that the terrorists are after you?

let us also not forget that Under the Patriot Act, someone can be arrested and held indefinitely without bail and without being charged with a crime. these people are considered "war criminals". an american citizen has already gone through this... hear me, an AMERICAN CITIZEN, hello bill of right? This does not apply to US citizens, it only applies to aliens in the US. The alien who gets detained is only detained the length it takes to deport them (reference to DHS/BICE to see how long it takes a detainee to get deported). If the alien is considered to be a significant risk to national security, then the detainee will be held longer. The DOJ uses this ability only in very significant cases.

---NO! it does apply to american citizens and has been used against american citizens. that can not be disputed.

Right now, I am done arguing this. I am not 100% for the Patriot Act, but I like it and I think it will be a great detector of terrorism, and it will give us more power to prosecute and get rid of terrorists within the US.

---personally i don't think the patriot act is the way to take care of this. clandestine ops would in my opinion be the best. the gov't will do anything it feels necessary whether legal or not, that is clear. however, i don't feel safe giving them the blanket priveledge to infringe on my alleged rights.