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Teach me how to negotiate

S

Stefka

New member
I'm great at arguing.
I suck at negotiating.
I get impatient and don't feel like playing the game and always want to tell the other party that he/she is full of crap.
Negotiation lessons from EF's business geniuses please...
 
Ask HR.

She has worked her way up to GPS systems for a date.
 
i usually end up saying wtf! and thus the negotiation is usually over, it is a tough skill that i would love to learn as well
 
it depends what you're negotiating. there's multiple approaches for each

your salary?
for an item?

You have to know a person's margins...and/or your own worth/the worth of the item
 
Look at things from the other guys perspective.

Bring them over to your side with your valid arguments.

Read: How to get your point acrosss in 30 seconds book, or winning with integrity by leigh steinberg.

Life is a negotiation. It's not just business. And never ever try to pull one over somebody. You can ruin your rep forever.

r
 
Stefka said:
I'm great at arguing.
I suck at negotiating.
I get impatient and don't feel like playing the game and always want to tell the other party that he/she is full of crap.
Negotiation lessons from EF's business geniuses please...
Click to expand...
Don't accept anything less than a 20 spot for a blowjob.
 
MichaelScott said:
one tool is to refuse to speak first very powerful
Click to expand...

Thats what she said.
 
How do you make the other person understand exactly what he/she stands to lose without showing all of your cards?
When is it a good idea to show all of your cards?
 
Stop empowering other people..

Negotiations are typically about compromise, why compromise if you are correct?? because someone else doesn't realize they are wrong??

"allow the other person to talk, more than you, we all have 1 mouth and 2 ears, use them"

Most people will offer you more than you will ask for, so allow them to be generous, it makes them feel good..
 
calveless wonder said:
it depends what you're negotiating. there's multiple approaches for each

your salary?
for an item?

You have to know a person's margins...and/or your own worth/the worth of the item
Click to expand...
I'm thinking more in terms of settlements, but I've realized that this would be an excellent skill to have in all areas of life.
 
Stefka said:
I'm thinking more in terms of settlements, but I've realized that this would be an excellent skill to have in all areas of life.
Click to expand...


They don't teach any negotiation or behavior classes in law?
 
Stefka said:
I'm thinking more in terms of settlements, but I've realized that this would be an excellent skill to have in all areas of life.
Click to expand...
Learned Hand is your friend with some poker skills thrown in..
 
if you're the first one going in for an offer....lowball is usually the way to go.
they'll counteroffer, and you can usually find a middle ground from the counteroffer.

if it's the other way around, analyze the offer and then submit your own counteroffer. if they're somewhat reasonable, don't lowball them too much as it throws your credibility out the window. if it's not, then you can play the "game".


as i said, you always have to understand the "bottomline" and the margins.

ie if it's a house, car, etc. you have to know what the lowest point is that the person can turn a profit and/or let something go for. that's something you should know prior to walking into a negotiation
 
all the whey said:
They don't teach any negotiation or behavior classes in law?
Click to expand...
I've had little workshops.
There is a class, but I cant take it next semester and I need this shit now!
And I dont know what I would really get out of the classes.
I'm very much a learning by doing person.
I'll be negotiating settlements all summer, I just want some tactics.
I'm good at being silent (and watching the other person be uncomfortable with silence) but I need ideas on how to move things along.
 
Stefka said:
I've had little workshops.
There is a class, but I cant take it next semester and I need this shit now!
And I dont know what I would really get out of the classes.
I'm very much a learning by doing person.
I'll be negotiating settlements all summer, I just want some tactics.
I'm good at being silent (and watching the other person be uncomfortable with silence) but I need ideas on how to move things along.
Click to expand...


So, you need some tips for dating Samoth also?????
 
Stefka said:
I've had little workshops.
There is a class, but I cant take it next semester and I need this shit now!
And I dont know what I would really get out of the classes.
I'm very much a learning by doing person.
I'll be negotiating settlements all summer, I just want some tactics.
I'm good at being silent (and watching the other person be uncomfortable with silence) but I need ideas on how to move things along.
Click to expand...

I settle debts for my clients all the time. Usually charge offs and other items that are in collection. I already know that these collection companies buy these debts for about 30-40 cents on the dollar. So in other words, typically they'll reduce it 50% of the outstanding balance if you twist their arm forcefully. They may offer a 30-40% reduction but if you state the financial limitations and it's one and done deal...offer them only 40% of the TOTAL sum, and they'll usually counter with a 50% reduction.

done deal
 
calveless wonder said:
are you listening bish
Click to expand...
Yes, of course
Some of the problems with settlement negotiations is as follows...
My (underlying) pitch is that opposing counsel is going to spend a ton of money on trial (billable hours and such), in addition to whatever damages we would win at trial.
It would be much cheaper for opposing party to settle (for a lot).
BUT
Opposing counsel is kind of screwed.
He/she doesn't want to settle too many cases or the person/company he/she represents will get pissed.
Furthermore, opposing counsel needs the billable hours, so he/she might not want to forgo trial just for the sake of economy.
 
Stefka said:
Yes, of course
Some of the problems with settlement negotiations is as follows...
My (underlying) pitch is that opposing counsel is going to spend a ton of money on trial (billable hours and such), in addition to whatever damages we would win at trial.
It would be much cheaper for opposing party to settle (for a lot).
BUT
Opposing counsel is kind of screwed.
He/she doesn't want to settle too many cases or the person/company he/she represents will get pissed.
Furthermore, opposing counsel needs the billable hours, so he/she might not want to forgo trial just for the sake of economy.
Click to expand...

in that instance, wouldn't it be a case by case basis?

For instance, how overwhelming is the evidence? If it's a clear cut case in your clients favor it'd be stupid for the opposing counsel to prolong things...at least in the best interest of their client. I think you have to guage that as well as pick your spots when to introduce the idea of a settlement. You always want to go for the throat when you have an upper hand (i.e. things are going in your favor)

part of that also is reading the other counsel. are they working in the best interest of their client or are they trying to get paid? I'm sure if you do case history on the firm you can find that out for yourself
 
also, food for thought....

what would be the negative consequences of proposing a settlement and it being rejected in the first place? Are there any?

That's something i can't analyze from a legal perspective due to my lack of knowledge in the area, but if there's no leverage lost in proposing that then i can assume it can be done more often than not.
 
calveless wonder said:
in that instance, wouldn't it be a case by case basis?

For instance, how overwhelming is the evidence? If it's a clear cut case in your clients favor it'd be stupid for the opposing counsel to prolong things...at least in the best interest of their client. I think you have to guage that as well as pick your spots when to introduce the idea of a settlement. You always want to go for the throat when you have an upper hand (i.e. things are going in your favor)

part of that also is reading the other counsel. are they working in the best interest of their client or are they trying to get paid? I'm sure if you do case history on the firm you can find that out for yourself
Click to expand...

Of course I do the math. We do a ton of work before we start settlemen t negotiations. But even when I know that I have an excellent case, sometimes opposing counsel just doesnt get it. That is so frustrating.
Maybe what I am looking for is effective ways to communicate that the other guy is screwed without being too abrasive.
 
Stefka said:
Of course I do the math. We do a ton of work before we start settlemen t negotiations. But even when I know that I have an excellent case, sometimes opposing counsel just doesnt get it. That is so frustrating.
Maybe what I am looking for is effective ways to communicate that the other guy is screwed without being too abrasive.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's an issue of articulating how strong your case is.

if i were in that position, i'd be firm and assertive in presenting that but nonchalant if they reject it since i know they're gonna get fucked anyways. in negotiation, it's all about power.

you project you have the most power by that.

if you're abrasive about it, you look desperate. always have to be calm, but firm.

that goes for any negotiation. and you can't be attached to any particular outcome.
back to my point about the person most willing to walk away from the deal has the most power

I hope that makes sense. Again, i have a more or less grasp on legal concepts but in this context there may be things that i'm oversighting
 
Stefka said:
Of course I do the math. We do a ton of work before we start settlemen t negotiations. But even when I know that I have an excellent case, sometimes opposing counsel just doesnt get it. That is so frustrating.
Maybe what I am looking for is effective ways to communicate that the other guy is screwed without being too abrasive.
Click to expand...
Explain Learned Hand to them.....
 
javaguru said:
Explain Learned Hand to them.....
Click to expand...
They went to law school too. I'm sure they're quite familiar with the whole B = PL thing. But this isn't torts. Most of the damages are derived from housing statutes.
 
Stefka said:
They went to law school too. I'm sure they're quite familiar with the whole B = PL thing. But this isn't torts. Most of the damages are derived from housing statutes.
Click to expand...
It's applicable to everything, I booked Law and Economics with it. Use some creative thinking, isn't that your strength literature girl. :)

PS Maybe they don't respect you because you're a wiminz, maybe you need to put on some bitch mojo?
 
you also have to make sure there is zero hesitation.

things like body language, voice tone, voice speed etc project a great deal in your confidence in the matter.

a good attorney or businessman picks up on that stuff in an instant.

i'm sure they teach you that in law school anyways somehow
 
calveless wonder said:
also, food for thought....

what would be the negative consequences of proposing a settlement and it being rejected in the first place? Are there any?

That's something i can't analyze from a legal perspective due to my lack of knowledge in the area, but if there's no leverage lost in proposing that then i can assume it can be done more often than not.
Click to expand...

Almost no negative consequences.
I'm public interest. My client doesnt pay for me. I dont get any of the money from his/her judgment or settlement. So it makes no diference to me what happens, except that I want the best for my client. I could take other cases and serve other people with the time I am spending litigating the case, but there really are no losses on my (or my client's) part.
 
calveless wonder said:
Yeah, that's an issue of articulating how strong your case is.

if i were in that position, i'd be firm and assertive in presenting that but nonchalant if they reject it since i know they're gonna get fucked anyways. in negotiation, it's all about power.

you project you have the most power by that.

if you're abrasive about it, you look desperate. always have to be calm, but firm.

that goes for any negotiation. and you can't be attached to any particular outcome.
back to my point about the person most willing to walk away from the deal has the most power

I hope that makes sense. Again, i have a more or less grasp on legal concepts but in this context there may be things that i'm oversighting
Click to expand...

This really is helpful. But I guess I'm just going to have to practice. I'm either super sweet and innocent seeming or a bitch. I seem to have a hard time being cordial but firm.
 
calveless wonder said:
you also have to make sure there is zero hesitation.

things like body language, voice tone, voice speed etc project a great deal in your confidence in the matter.

a good attorney or businessman picks up on that stuff in an instant.

i'm sure they teach you that in law school anyways somehow
Click to expand...

I'm alright at composing myself. I dont really freak out or rush through these things.
But I really do get so frustrated. At times, I might be covinced that opposing counsel is a total dumbass and doenst fully understand the law or the ramafications, no mater how many times i explain it. Is that just when you smile big and take a deep breath and say you look forward to seeing them at trial? Of course we'd win. But the truth is that settlements are usually better for everyone.
 
Stefka said:
This really is helpful. But I guess I'm just going to have to practice. I'm either super sweet and innocent seeming or a bitch. I seem to have a hard time being cordial but firm.
Click to expand...

yeah...work on that.
also try to understand your limitations as well. With any business deal of any sort, there will be times you can do everything right and things will still not go your way. Just live with

i may be mistaken but i'm sure an experienced lawyer, if they are dealing with only you or a relatively young legal team, will see or assume that you're fresh out of law school and try to use that to their advantage and won't budge. If they try to play that card, the only thing you can do is it stick to them in the end and make them look foolish. but i wouldn't be surprised if that is something that an opposing counsel would look at when preparing their case.

I'd imagine a firm would do something to offset this though. i.e. pair a senior attorney with a n00b
 
calveless wonder said:
I settle debts for my clients all the time. Usually charge offs and other items that are in collection. I already know that these collection companies buy these debts for about 30-40 cents on the dollar. So in other words, typically they'll reduce it 50% of the outstanding balance if you twist their arm forcefully. They may offer a 30-40% reduction but if you state the financial limitations and it's one and done deal...offer them only 40% of the TOTAL sum, and they'll usually counter with a 50% reduction.

done deal
Click to expand...

Why on EARTH would you settle with a collection company???? The credit is already screwed, and you're just throwing money away now. You're basically paying someone thousands just to stop calling you.

r
 
Razorguns said:
Why on EARTH would you settle with a collection company???? The credit is already screwed, and you're just throwing money away now. You're basically paying someone thousands just to stop calling you.

r
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

you're really fuckin dumb. don't talk to me about a business you have no idea about and you have zero clue how the bureau modeling works.

you only do this for collections that can't be removed via dispute. usually large things like credit cards and such.

a paid collection/settled collection has MUCH less an impact than an open collection. Not to mention the thing gets resold so many fuckin times it could easily stay on your credit well beyond 7 years.

a few paid collections within 6-7 months can easily boost your credit score up significantly.

i don't know why the fuck i am even wasting my breath. i've seen thousands of credit reports in my life. i bet you've seen 10

I wouldn't even be such a dick about it if you weren't so convinced. but it's like me going up to bill gates and telling him he has no fuckin clue about computers. or even you...and saying "no, this is how networking should be done". i have no fuckin clue about networking or IT. but at least i acknowledge that and stick to what i know.
 
Last edited:
calveless wonder said:
yeah...work on that.
also try to understand your limitations as well. With any business deal of any sort, there will be times you can do everything right and things will still not go your way. Just live with

i may be mistaken but i'm sure an experienced lawyer, if they are dealing with only you or a relatively young legal team, will see or assume that you're fresh out of law school and try to use that to their advantage and won't budge. If they try to play that card, the only thing you can do is it stick to them in the end and make them look foolish. but i wouldn't be surprised if that is something that an opposing counsel would look at when preparing their case.

I'd imagine a firm would do something to offset this though. i.e. pair a senior attorney with a n00b
Click to expand...

My legal services group has quite the reputation, so opposing counsel usually fears us a little, but still tries to trick the students as we really are N00bs.

This work is so much fun. I just need to learn this negotiating game.
 
Stefka said:
I'm alright at composing myself. I dont really freak out or rush through these things.
But I really do get so frustrated. At times, I might be covinced that opposing counsel is a total dumbass and doenst fully understand the law or the ramafications, no mater how many times i explain it. Is that just when you smile big and take a deep breath and say you look forward to seeing them at trial? Of course we'd win. But the truth is that settlements are usually better for everyone.
Click to expand...

never get frustrated. even in sales, the minute you get frustrated the deal is dead. Frustration makes other people lose confidence in you and makes people nervous(not in a good way). Took me a long time to learn that. You have to be 100% detached from the outcome.

the bold is exactly what you do.

my ex's DUI lawyer (one of the best in the city) won her case by doing the exactly above. he had NO intention of going to trial, but he made it appear he absolutely wanted to if they didn't dismiss it based on certain evidence. my ex did everything wrong too when the cops pulled her over/arrested her...completely fucked up.yet he still won

it's all about the bluff. like someone said, poker is sometimes a good parallel
 
OMEGA said:
~Be Nice
~Be Fair
~Always concern your self how other will make a dollar and you will make 2
~ have MULTIPLE discussions, as this will inform you how serious and authentic the people you are talking with are.
Click to expand...

you make a good point.....but in the legal field, i think win win situations are not as abundant. there is usually a clear cut winner and loser in most cases.

in general, business should be approached from a win win standpoint but the dynamics of the legal field are often different.

hence my emphasis on margins, profitability etc. as well as desperation
 
wow stefka, you're making me want to go to law school after i go back to school :p

i think i'd be a good lawyer. i actually wanted to be one when i was still in school but then i discovered finance and the ability to make money without grinding it out forever in school. however a law degree is something no one can ever take away from you

you really enjoy the work?
 
calveless wonder said:
wow stefka, you're making me want to go to law school after i go back to school :p

i think i'd be a good lawyer. i actually wanted to be one when i was still in school but then i discovered finance and the ability to make money without grinding it out forever in school. however a law degree is something no one can ever take away from you

you really enjoy the work?
Click to expand...

I really love it. It allows me to put together so much of what I enjoy. Writing, researching, arguing, bitching plus a little ocd meticulousness.
And I am so at home with other lawyers/law students because we are all such smart asses.
Work and court is fun because of the people.
But the cases are awesome too.
You'd probably like to make a ton of money working for a big corporate firm. You'd have the business sense for it too.
I like dealing with real people. Helping clients. Getting the little guy some money and righting all of the wrongs he/she has had to endure.
I couldn’t function in this job if I couldn’t talk to my clients.
There are a lot of lawyers who never have to deal with an individual client - just a corporation or a trust.
Law takes all kinds. You just need the energy and the interest.
 
Stefka said:
I really love it. It allows me to put together so much of what I enjoy. Writing, researching, arguing, bitching plus a little ocd meticulousness.
And I am so at home with other lawyers/law students because we are all such smart asses.
Work and court is fun because of the people.
But the cases are awesome too.
You'd probably like to make a ton of money working for a big corporate firm. You'd have the business sense for it too.
I like dealing with real people. Helping clients. Getting the little guy some money and righting all of the wrongs he/she has had to endure.
I couldn’t function in this job if I couldn’t talk to my clients.
There are a lot of lawyers who never have to deal with an individual client - just a corporation or a trust.
Law takes all kinds. You just need the energy and the interest.
Click to expand...

hah...that sounds great. i can crack out to all that stuff for endless hours. I get burnt out from dealing with people and trying to sell them all day long.

hrmm.. i see your point about not interacting with the clients working for a business firm. That would take away from certain aspects. Alot more political than personal. I dont know how much i would feel comfortable with that..money or not

I wonder if real estate law would involve the same thing. given my background i'm sure that might be a fairly lucrative idea! Even in a down market real estate attorneys stay busy due to the short sale negotiations.
 
Stefka said:
I'm great at arguing.
I suck at negotiating.
I get impatient and don't feel like playing the game and always want to tell the other party that he/she is full of crap.
Negotiation lessons from EF's business geniuses please...
Click to expand...

Admit nothing, deny everything, and immediately make counter accusations.
 
Criminal law may not be directly applicable but defense attorneys will delay a trial as long as they can hoping the prosecutor's case load eventually gives the defense attorney an advantage. Just saying they might be stalling and testing. :)
 
Go to an Asian fleamarket and bargiain for a deal. If you can win there, you can win anywhere!
 
nimbus said:
lol i wouldnt get your hopes up about ever getting those back
Click to expand...

lolololol.

they're long gone. it was for the sake of comedy :)

that ipod charger was only like 9 dollars and those sneakers smelled like alcatraz after a day at the sauna
 
calveless wonder said:
lolololol.

they're long gone. it was for the sake of comedy :)

that ipod charger was only like 9 dollars and those sneakers smelled like alcatraz after a day at the sauna
Click to expand...

plus stefka can tell you all about the case of Finders vs. Keepers
 
calveless wonder said:
i'm often confused for an arab and i'm half asian.

so that means everyone = owned by me
Click to expand...
Fortunately, this is the Internet (read: everything is unverifiable).

So, I'm also a Vietnam vet, half black, on welfare and raking in dough. I can bitch about anyone.
 
Always start the negotiations by telling them "Calveless Wonder and Javaguru on EF, you know, the steroid board... told me to say..." Then hit them with what you've got.

When they're scratching their head with utter confusion, hit them in the nose with your heel.

This was a wasted post. Sorry.

There are some helpful people here though. good stuff.
 
 
Stefka said:
I'm great at arguing.
I suck at negotiating.
I get impatient and don't feel like playing the game and always want to tell the other party that he/she is full of crap.
Negotiation lessons from EF's business geniuses please...
Click to expand...

i hate losing. . .and during the negotiation process, you lose something. . .that's the nature of negotiating. . .when you're working with someone who's equally informed and wants to satisy their need just as bad as you want to satisfy yours, it helps if you can put yourself in the "everybody wins" mindset. . .when equally informed parties, each looking out for their own best interest, neither acting under duress, sit down at the table and negotiate to terms that each agrees to; generally speaking, they both win. . .
 
On negotiating a car price once you get or give the numbers just sit in silence, it might be a long uncomfortable pause but the first one to speak looses. So just sit there and let them speak first.
 
Last edited:
Stefka said:
Law school is super academic. You learn the practical stuff when you start practicing.
Click to expand...
i understand .......i learned lots of practical stuff in the brokerage industry

basically make ppl do whatever u want them to do with thier money
 
Stefka said:
I'm great at arguing.
I suck at negotiating.
I get impatient and don't feel like playing the game and always want to tell the other party that he/she is full of crap.
Negotiation lessons from EF's business geniuses please...
Click to expand...
if u came to me to buy a pair of shoes i would send u away floating after buying the first pair of shoes u said u would never want
 
Jon79 said:
if u came to me to buy a pair of shoes i would send u away floating after buying the first pair of shoes u said u would never want
Click to expand...
I have way too many shoes. I always buy shoes I dont need/end up not wanting. It is a sickness really.
 
Stefka said:
I have way too many shoes. I always buy shoes I dont need/end up not wanting. It is a sickness really.
Click to expand...
u wanna see a pic of my closet ....i hide shoes in my car

yesterday i bout some straight cold white adidas .....old school style.....obviously you can only wear them like twice and they r done but they were fucking 29 bucks so who gives a rats ass.....

they will look sick with my new jeans and white shirt
 
Jon79 said:
u wanna see a pic of my closet ....i hide shoes in my car

yesterday i bout some straight cold white adidas .....old school style.....obviously you can only wear them like twice and they r done but they were fucking 29 bucks so who gives a rats ass.....

they will look sick with my new jeans and white shirt
Click to expand...

Yes, pics of shoe closet!!!

And, you're supposed to clean them every day with a toothbrush, you white sneaker N00b.
 
Stefka said:
Yes, pics of shoe closet!!!

And, you're supposed to clean them every day with a toothbrush, you white sneaker N00b.
Click to expand...
seriously i cleand my adiddidas today befor i even put them on to go out.....with a toothbrush ......no joke
 
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