Protein intake question

[N-10-CITY]

MS, I did read the info in those URLs, and I didn't post them to provide information contrary to the belief that high protein diets do/don't cause renal damage, but merely posted them to provide information regarding what diagnostic features creatinine tests are useful for.

I am also fully aware of the study you have posted. However, the key issue among the vast majority of the studies involving "high" or "excessive" protein intake is that they define "high" and "excessive" as roughly 2g/kg of body mass (and even 2.8g/kg of body mass only equates to 1.27g/lb of body mass). These "extremes" are still far below what the vast majority of bodybuilders on this site insist on consuming.

I am also well aware of the compensatory mechanism whereby glomerular filtration rate and renal reserve will increase in response to increased protein intake. In addition I am well aware of the ability of many organs, including the liver, to increase in mass (size) in response to high protein diets. However, the issue of "high" or "extreme" in these studies lacks any transference to real life becuase the values are still considerably lower than what is commonly consumed. I do, however, recognize that there are several studies conducted on dogs that are fed diets equating to 75% protein, but those studies are performed on nephrectomized subjects.

I've gotta get ready for an exam. I'll be back in a few hours and the I can elaborate on the topic a little more.

 

[MS]

I am glad to hear that your are so well informed NJ. Perhaps the other readers on this board are not, so it's good to be clear about what's known versus what is speculation. You gave the impression that your kidneys were damaged by a high protein diet because your creatinine levels were elevated. All I'm pointing out is that creatinine levels can be raised my many things, including creatine supplementation, muscle catabolism, diets high in red meat, dehydration and general high protein intake. High creatinine by itself does not mean you had kidney damage.

We seem to agree that many bodybuilders eat more protein than they need. There is no evidence that this causes damage in the short to medium term. I worry more about the long term consequences of high protein diets, as well as the pure wastefulness (and expense) of eating so much protein. Having coached/dieted a woman with kidney disease (not kidney failure) to the Nationals (she got third in her class), I can assure you that very high protein diets are not necessarily harmful to the kidneys. She cycled almost exclusively soy protein, from 1g per kg up to 4g per kg, and her kidneys are as good as they've ever been. But when she was bulking, her protein intake was below 1g/kg. Carbs are the best calories for building muscle mass, plain and simple. But it's pretty hard to diet down to ultralow bodyfat while retaining muscle WITHOUT a high protein diet.

 

[N-10-CITY]

This has been a pleasant discussion and I'm impressed that it hasn't degraded to a flame war (not that I would expect that from you; in the time that I've been on this board, I've noticed that you are well informed, articulate, and tactful.).

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a great deal about nutrition, but I do understand more than the vast majority of the members of this board--I'm a kinesiologist, not a renal dietician. But I do have experience with consuming large quantities of protein while having normal kidney function as well as compromised kidney function due to the fact that I lacerated one of my kidneys a couple of years ago during a baseball training camp and consequently had it removed. So I've tested the waters on both sides.

I also agree with your assertion that bodybuilders essentially waste a lot of protein. The quantities that I see recommended on this, and the majority of other boards, basically equates to an expensive source of additional calories. But I strongly believe that most of the studies concluding that there are few, if any, short-medium term side effects of high protein intake are not reflective of real world "high" protein consumption that typically exceeds the studies standards of "high" by magnitudes of 2-3 times.

One of my main concerns, however, is that bodybuilders don't just consume large amounts of protein. A lot of them take huge amounts of diuretics like ECA stacks in conjunction with their 2-3g of protein per lb of body mass. I have yet to find any studies conducted specifically on the effects of high protein and diuretic intake and their effects on renal health. I would theorize though, that the combined effect likely causes varying degrees of kidney damage depending on the supplement quantities and duration of supplementation.

Perhaps, people who are reading this thread, if they feel so inclined, could have the blood work done that I suggested, and we could effectively conduct a pseudo-epidemiological study based on real-world bodybuilding protein consumption. They could post the results of their blood work, their daily protein consumption, and their consumption of ECA stacks (or other "fat burning" diuretics).

 

[Blood&Iron]

I, for one, would be willing to have some blood tests done. But I first have to check what it'd cost me. Don't have a ton of spare cash. Plus I'm using creatine which will invalidate at least the creatinine test. Suppose I could stop using 2-3 weeks prior to let it clear out of my systems, but I'm not sure I want to do that. Beside I'm only getting about 250g of protein at a weight of 210 lbs. so I'm not consuming "vast" amounts of protein anyway--at least in my opinion. If I have any tests done, I'll post the results.

 

[Grizzly]

Seems to me that the real world tests and the, more or less, proof that high protein diets aren't that bad for you can be seen in 60 years of bodybuilders consuming high protein. Not that I'm a bodybuilding historian or anything, but I don't recall a single one dying from kidney failure. Some definitely have probelms with their kidneys(that Long fellow and, I think, Flex) but I would bet that has just a little bit more to do with huge amounts of drug use than it does with their protein intake.

 

[MS]

Maybe NJ-10 is reading my mind! I also worry about the combo of not just high protein and ECA, but ECA by itself. This combo of drugs (ephedrine/caffeine and aspirin) is directly toxic to kidney cells. I can imagine some bodybuilder eating 3+grams of protein per kg each day while taking an ECA stack 3 times per day, then she gets an ear infection and goes to the doc (and doesn't tell doc about her high protein/ECA intake) and doc gives her a course of aminoglycoside antibiotics. Even without dehydration/diuresis, the above combo could be pretty devastating to a perfectly healthy kidney!

It's sad but true that the highest profile bodybuilders also take huge amounts of potentially nephrotoxic drugs. It makes it pretty hard to draw any conclusions based purely on the presence or absence of kidney failure in this population.

Until we have long term studies following people that eat chronically high protein diets (in the absence of toxic drug abuse) we may never know for sure. It seems prudent to me to only eat as much protein as you actually need, plus perhaps a tad extra for insurance. The 1.2g to 1.8g/kg guideline meets this criteria nicely for the majority of bodybuilders. I think most bodybuilders would also benefit from cycling their protein intake. It gives the liver/kidneys a break, and also makes the body more efficient at assimilating and using the protein you eat. Not to mention those extra carbs give ya a real metabolic/anabolic boost.

 

[Blood&Iron]

MS-
I was not aware of ECA having any sort of effect on kidney functioning. I'm certainly no pharmacologist but as I recall adrenoreceptor agonists have adverse effects only on the cardiovascular and central nervous systems. Can you explain how ECA, besides having a diuretic effect, would affect kidney functioning?

 

[MS]

Ephedrine (by itself) is implicated in the formation of kidney stones. Ephedrine also reduces blood flow through the kidneys. Chronic caffeine+analgesic use, both through diuresis and direct toxicity to kidney cells, can lead to kidney failure (note this seems to be a synergistic effect that is not seen with caffeine or aspirin taken by themselves). Caffeine/aspirin, in the presence of reduced blood flow and dehydration (due to diuresis) is about the worst mix I can dream up for kidney health! Because many bodybuilders/dieters use ECA combos chronically, they are putting themselves at greater risk for kidney problems. No one knows what adding a long term, very high protein diet on top of this stack will do to kidneys. It seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[notpuff]

How does casein taste? what can you mix it with ?