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PROOF? You Decide.

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
This isn;t a double blind, peer reviewed abstract conducted by an independant University. it's just the results of my latest blood test.

I've been on 100 mgs a week of T for over 6 years now.

My total T is 876 -- the upper healthy range. (Just sort of being TOO high).

My FREE testosterone was 5:00 -- over the normal range for men 29 to 49. I'm 54.

This proves two things.

One: Stop believing this nonsense spewed by people who don't understand how hormonal fluctuation works about being "shut down"once you use any exogenous T. You CAN maintain natural production along with additional intake with the proper procedures.

And two: Gotta say it. UNLEASHED. I take it religiously. There is no way my SHBG can be that low at my age without help. That means either Winny, Proviron or UNLEASHED. Since I only take UNLEASHED, that's the only answer.

So I'm not sure how much this means to everyone but in the least, it should make everyone rethink the "shutdown" concept and start thinking about doing everything possible to maintain natural T and Free T production for life.
 
8and20 said:
do u believe u can maintain full production while on a low dose?

in simplified cliff note form, your body tries to maintain homeostatic quantity X units of test.

if you inject any compound that is mapped to x-40 units by the hypothalmus, then your body will produce 40 units to get it to its homeostatic quantity.

if you inject any compound that is mapped to x-10 units by the hypothalmus, then your body will produce 10 units to get it to its homeostatic quantity.

if you inject any compound that is mapped to >/= X units by the hypothalmus, then your body will not produce any of its own test cuz it thinks it has enuf.
 
Nelson, you were on 100mgs of TESTOSTERONE, which is why you tested at almost 900ng/dl. :)

You ARE SHUTDOWN, try coming OFF and see what your level is...
 
Mav is correct but I'll simplify it somewhat.

Whenever you add an exogenous compound, the body gets help so it therefore doesn't try as hard. They'll always be SOME suprression. But not helping it all will just be a burden because at some point it simply can't make enough. So no, you can not retain FULL production, but there is the law of homeostasis. The body will perceive the help and use it, but still under the impression that it must still "produce" some on it's own. It's just getting help. Think of it as a "spot" on the last rep of a bench press. It isn't all you at that point and it isn't all the spotter. Both are needed.

Of course, if you SLAM it down with too much, it essentially "gives up" and lets the drug do everything. The key is balance.
 
Ross said:
Nelson, you were on 100mgs of TESTOSTERONE, which is why you tested at almost 900ng/dl. :)

You ARE SHUTDOWN, try coming OFF and see what your level is...

+1
 
Ross said:
Nelson, you were on 100mgs of TESTOSTERONE, which is why you tested at almost 900ng/dl. :)

You ARE SHUTDOWN, try coming OFF and see what your level is...

So you're saying if i come off, My T will be near zero? That makes no sense bro. If that were the case, 100 mgs would not get me to 900 ngs.
 
Nelson Montana said:
So you're saying if i come off, My T will be near zero? That makes no sense bro. If that were the case, 100 mgs would not get me to 900 ngs.

Yes, 100mgs every week will put you exactly around 900NG/DL

Come completely OFF, you will be down to the 100's.
 
Nelson Montana said:
So you're saying if i come off, My T will be near zero? That makes no sense bro. If that were the case, 100 mgs would not get me to 900 ngs.

that does make sense
 
hurricane187 said:
interesting thread.. but who is right here?


Nelson is wrong. I have to say I read threads at this board a lot and a number of Nelson's "theories" don't seemed back by much hard evidence. Too much product pushing, too little clinical evidence.


Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.


In normal men, chronic testosterone (T) administration results in negative feedback suppression of gonadotropin and sperm production. However, azoospermia is achieved in only 50-70% of men treated with high dosages of T. Furthermore, the relative sensitivity of LH and FSH secretion to chronic administration of more physiological dosages of T is unclear. We determined whether a T dosage higher than those previously given would be more or less effective in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether, within the physiological range, T would exert a more selective effect on LH than on FSH secretion. After a 4- to 6-month control period, 51 normal men were randomly assigned to treatment groups (n = 9-12/group) receiving either sesame oil (1 mL) or T enanthate (25, 50, 100, or 300 mg, im) weekly for 6 months. Monthly LH and FSH levels by RIA and twice monthly sperm counts were determined. During treatment, T levels were measured daily between two weekly injections. Chronic T administration in physiological to moderately supraphysiological dosages resulted in parallel dose-dependent suppression of LH, FSH, and sperm production. T enanthate (50 mg/week) suppressed LH and FSH levels and sperm counts to 50% of those in placebo-treated men (ED50). T enanthate (300 mg/week), was no more effective than 100 mg/week in suppressing LH, FSH, and sperm production. Serum T levels in men who received 100 and 300 mg/week T enanthate were 1.5- and 3-fold higher than those in placebo-treated men, respectively. Except for mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit, we detected no significant adverse health effects of chronic high dosage T administration. We conclude that 1) LH and FSH secretion are equally sensitive to the long term negative feedback effects of T administration; 2) sperm production is suppressed in parallel with the LH and FSH reductions induced by chronic T administration; and 3) even at the clearly supraphysiological dosage of 300 mg/week, T enanthate does not reliably induce azoospermia in normal men. However, there was also no evidence of a stimulatory effect of this T dosage on spermatogenesis. Furthermore, we found no evidence of major adverse health effects of T administered chronically even at the highest dosage.
 
only gh and igf for me for the rest of my life. Test, and roids in general......just never really worked for me. I've got a higher libido now that I've been completely off for 8-9 months. I feel alot better and have more energy when I'm clean or just using gh/igf. If they weren't so god damn expensive I'd be on one of them or both year round. My future gear use "may" consist of a few weeks of deca if joint problems pop up again.........other than that, I"m done with the T molecule.
 
alphatest said:
Nelson is wrong. I have to say I read threads at this board a lot and a number of Nelson's "theories" don't seemed back by much hard evidence. Too much product pushing, too little clinical evidence.


Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.


In normal men, chronic testosterone (T) administration results in negative feedback suppression of gonadotropin and sperm production. However, azoospermia is achieved in only 50-70% of men treated with high dosages of T. Furthermore, the relative sensitivity of LH and FSH secretion to chronic administration of more physiological dosages of T is unclear. We determined whether a T dosage higher than those previously given would be more or less effective in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether, within the physiological range, T would exert a more selective effect on LH than on FSH secretion. After a 4- to 6-month control period, 51 normal men were randomly assigned to treatment groups (n = 9-12/group) receiving either sesame oil (1 mL) or T enanthate (25, 50, 100, or 300 mg, im) weekly for 6 months. Monthly LH and FSH levels by RIA and twice monthly sperm counts were determined. During treatment, T levels were measured daily between two weekly injections. Chronic T administration in physiological to moderately supraphysiological dosages resulted in parallel dose-dependent suppression of LH, FSH, and sperm production. T enanthate (50 mg/week) suppressed LH and FSH levels and sperm counts to 50% of those in placebo-treated men (ED50). T enanthate (300 mg/week), was no more effective than 100 mg/week in suppressing LH, FSH, and sperm production. Serum T levels in men who received 100 and 300 mg/week T enanthate were 1.5- and 3-fold higher than those in placebo-treated men, respectively. Except for mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit, we detected no significant adverse health effects of chronic high dosage T administration. We conclude that 1) LH and FSH secretion are equally sensitive to the long term negative feedback effects of T administration; 2) sperm production is suppressed in parallel with the LH and FSH reductions induced by chronic T administration; and 3) even at the clearly supraphysiological dosage of 300 mg/week, T enanthate does not reliably induce azoospermia in normal men. However, there was also no evidence of a stimulatory effect of this T dosage on spermatogenesis. Furthermore, we found no evidence of major adverse health effects of T administered chronically even at the highest dosage.

rut roh!

banned!!
 
Ross said:
Yes, 100mgs every week will put you exactly around 900NG/DL

Come completely OFF, you will be down to the 100's.

Nah, more like 600 -- each mg increasing test approx 4 ngs. (Assuming I'm as low as 200 naturally, which STILL is not shut down).

And the other point is the free T. Guys can take a ton of test but if SHBG is high they'll only be utilizing a fraction of it. The ideal here is to make the most of what you've got, both naturally and enhanced.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Nah, more like 600 -- each mg increasing test approx 4 ngs. (Assuming I'm as low as 200 naturally, which STILL is not shut down).

And the other point is the free T. Guys can take a ton of test but if SHBG is high they'll only be utilizing a fraction of it. The ideal here is to make the most of what you've got, both naturally and enhanced.

Nelson, so long as you are on ANY DOSAGE OF EXOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE, your blood testosterone level is NOT NATURAL.

On 100mgs of Testosterone weekly(depending on the individual), most men will be around 600-900ng/dl. This is NOT your natural production Nelson, this is exogenous testosterone.

Come OFF for 12 weeks, get tested again, you will be LOW--VERY LOW.
 
Nelson looks great.

He looks better than quite a few of the lads in my gym who are half his age.


(Hi hun :wavey: )
 
Wow, one guy with 4 posts. (I wonder who THAT is?) And did he even read the abstarct or did he think that posting it was enough. Nowhere does it say that 100 mgs will shut you down.

Ross is always right? Dude, I know you're trying to be funny but it sounds silly.

You're also missing the point I thought I made clear. You're confusing suppression with shut down. I don't know what else to say to make you understand that any better. I'm sure I'd be low of I came off and I'm not about to do that to myself. But the facts remain. Very low HRT. Functioning HPTA and high free T level due to supplementation. What's the problem with that?
 
Either way your blood work is proof of nothing.

After years of abuse I was down to about 127 after 6 months of not being on. SO yeah, I wasnt completely shut down, but I might as well have been. Thats less test than a post menopausal women.

Maybe we should examine just what we mean by the term "Shut down". Does it mean your at ZERO? Hell No. But if you want to say being at 5 is proof your not shut down than sure. Your still producing.

I think its a little more complex and above anyone on this board.

I think also for the most part we agree when your in the normal range, your not "shut down" (if we remember its just a term and not literally)
 
galaxy said:
Either way your blood work is proof of nothing.

After years of abuse I was down to about 127 after 6 months of not being on. SO yeah, I wasnt completely shut down, but I might as well have been. Thats less test than a post menopausal women.

Maybe we should examine just what we mean by the term "Shut down". Does it mean your at ZERO? Hell No. But if you want to say being at 5 is proof your not shut down than sure. Your still producing.

I think its a little more complex and above anyone on this board.

I think also for the most part we agree when your in the normal range, your not "shut down" (if we remember its just a term and not literally)

I think that's exactly it. A "term" is being taken literally. I feel that even if you're producing less (or just a little) on your own, why not make the most of it? That's when the body operates the best. If someone goes on thyroid medication does the doctor immediately give the highest dose because "you'll be shut down anyway?" No, but that's the thinking all too often around here and other steroid sites.

And it's the free T that matters anyway. There aren't many options in that regard.
 
Based on my own blood tests when experimenting with HRT for 6 months @ 100mg per week the following is what I noticed...
Total Test was close to 1000ng/dl (pre-Hrt was 500), SHBG decreased by almost 50%, LH went down to 0 and Bio-Available test increased almost 400%. If my LH was indeed 0, then it seems highly unlikely that my own nuts were putting out anything in to the mix...
 
I am jeolous. My test was only 570 on 150mgs 10 days after inject and my Free was 2.07 I think?

Of course I did jerk off twice before the test to manipulate it. I only did that because I doubled up on my dose before a vacation and wasnt gonna have time to boot nor desire to bring my test with me.

But those are impressive numbers on just 100mgs and UNLEASHED
 
Mr. Black said:
Based on my own blood tests when experimenting with HRT for 6 months @ 100mg per week the following is what I noticed...
Total Test was close to 1000ng/dl (pre-Hrt was 500), SHBG decreased by almost 50%, LH went down to 0 and Bio-Available test increased almost 400%. If my LH was indeed 0, then it seems highly unlikely that my own nuts were putting out anything in to the mix...

BINGO.
 
Tatyana said:
Nelson looks great.

He looks better than quite a few of the lads in my gym who are half his age.


(Hi hun :wavey: )


soo i heard:(

I was jelus lol


Nelson put his Lucky charms on tatyana
 
Nelson Montana said:
This isn;t a double blind, peer reviewed abstract conducted by an independant University. it's just the results of my latest blood test.

I've been on 100 mgs a week of T for over 6 years now.

My total T is 876 -- the upper healthy range. (Just sort of being TOO high).

My FREE testosterone was 5:00 -- over the normal range for men 29 to 49. I'm 54.

This proves two things.

One: Stop believing this nonsense spewed by people who don't understand how hormonal fluctuation works about being "shut down"once you use any exogenous T. You CAN maintain natural production along with additional intake with the proper procedures.

And two: Gotta say it. UNLEASHED. I take it religiously. There is no way my SHBG can be that low at my age without help. That means either Winny, Proviron or UNLEASHED. Since I only take UNLEASHED, that's the only answer.

So I'm not sure how much this means to everyone but in the least, it should make everyone rethink the "shutdown" concept and start thinking about doing everything possible to maintain natural T and Free T production for life.[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that Nelson is putting out there.

Its good to reflect on things like this and keep safe, espacially if your in it for the long run.

-Eric
 
ceo said:
ooohhh...I didn't realize this thread was about how he looked! :p

I thought that looking good was one of the major motivations for most of you sticking a needle in your buns :)
 
Tatyana said:
I thought that looking good was one of the major motivations for most of you sticking a needle in your buns :)

i could so run with this statement but i will be a good lad :)
 
Just because Mr.Black had zero LH is just an indicator of what happened to HIM. Granted, my LH is low too, but not nonexistent. Then again, I do things differently.

And speaking of "Lucky Charms", I still have them. So they're still operating in one form or another.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Just because Mr.Black had zero LH is just an indicator of what happened to HIM. Granted, my LH is low too, but not nonexistent. Then again, I do things differently.

And speaking of "Lucky Charms", I still have them. So they're still operating in one form or another.


i was under the impression that LH could also vary quite a bit and is best measured in response to injected GnRH to see which part of the axis is being affected...but then again i eat paste :)
 
Nelson, you were originally stating that one can maintain normal endogenous testosterone production while on a weekly Testosterone dosage of 100mgs, and you simply can NOT.

It is obvious that you misinterpreted or simply misunderstood the bloodwork, but the testosterone level that was measured was NOT your natural production, it was exogenous testosterone. The reason you measured at 900ng/dl is because you are ON 100mgs of TESTOSTERONE.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Just because Mr.Black had zero LH is just an indicator of what happened to HIM. Granted, my LH is low too, but not nonexistent. Then again, I do things differently.

And speaking of "Lucky Charms", I still have them. So they're still operating in one form or another.


Nelson,

I remember you saying something about periodic HCG use.

Wouldn't weekly use, along with your Test bring things up?

Don't you incorporate HCG for maintaining LH? Also an AI of some kind. Yes?


I use 1000iu's HCG/wk for my HRT. 500iu's the day before I shoot my Test.
I've been on for 4 years too and it keeps LH fairly stable in my case.
Plus the boys are happy little golf balls.
 
Ross said:
Nelson, you were originally stating that one can maintain normal endogenous testosterone production while on a weekly Testosterone dosage of 100mgs, and you simply can NOT.

........................................

WRONG AGAIN ROSS. I NEVER SAID THAT.


...............................................................

It is obvious that you misinterpreted or simply misunderstood the bloodwork, but the testosterone level that was measured was NOT your natural production, it was exogenous testosterone.

....................................................


CONSESCENTION DOES NOT FUEL YOUR ARGUMENT. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT DUDE. I'VE BEEN IN THIS ARENA A LONG TIME.


..................................................

The reason you measured at 900ng/dl is because you are ON 100mgs of TESTOSTERONE.
........................................

YOU DON'T GET IT. IF 100 MGS PUT ME AT 900NGS THAT MEAN 1000MGS WOULD PUT ME AT 9000NGS?!? NO DUDE. YOU'RE OFF ON THIS ONE.

..
 
Ross said:
Yes, 100mgs every week will put you exactly around 900NG/DL

Come completely OFF, you will be down to the 100's.

ok that is not even close to true...

In fact there was a specific thread I believe in the HRT forum, where the guy had to take I believe 300mg/wk to get into an acceptable range....

it IS different from person to person, you cannot possibly generalize like that
 
get456 said:
ok that is not even close to true...

In fact there was a specific thread I believe in the HRT forum, where the guy had to take I believe 300mg/wk to get into an acceptable range....

it IS different from person to person, you cannot possibly generalize like that



Great point and one which I should have addressed.

Everyone always talks about how a young mans T is high enough to grow without steroids. But if 100mgs raises T to 900ngs. That would mean all you need is 200 mgs a week and you'll higher than most any human on earth. Nope, doesn't work that way.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Great point and one which I should have addressed.

Everyone always talks about how a young mans T is high enough to grow without steroids. But if 100mgs raises T to 900ngs. That would mean all you need is 200 mgs a week and you'll higher than most any human on earth. Nope, doesn't work that way.

No Nelson, it is a CURVE.

Even so, 100mgs of exogenous Testosterone will put most individuals in the 600-900ng/dl range, and 200mgs will put most individuals in the 1500-2,000 range.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Great point and one which I should have addressed.

Everyone always talks about how a young mans T is high enough to grow without steroids. But if 100mgs raises T to 900ngs. That would mean all you need is 200 mgs a week and you'll higher than most any human on earth. Nope, doesn't work that way.


I really don't want to be banned, I enjoy reading posts on this board. But this is totally incorrect. 200mgs is generally a supra physiological dose of T. Many hormone replacement regimens use 100mg of Test E every week or 200mg every two weeks. This amount of test is sufficient to raise blood levels as high as 1200ng/dL. I don't get what your trying to argue, 100mg can easily put you at 900ng/dL. If your so certain it can't, provide some evidence otherwise.

Ref: Pharmacokinetics, Efficacy, and Safety of a Permeation-Enhanced Testosterone Transdermal System in Comparison with Bi-Weekly Injections of Testosterone Enanthate for the Treatment of Hypogonadal Men (Look at the graph)

To tell people
 
Great thread. Although, I gotta add, Nelson has a lot of ideas that may seem off to some, but if you give them a try or look at it a different way, you'll see where he is coming from.

After reading his first ebook many years ago, I started taking a lot of the old time supps, Rheo Blair style. I still use those methods today to build my body further and further.

I will say this much, when Nelson competed, he looked better than most on this board, and def. better than a lot in this thread. No offense to anyone but for all the high dosages I see around the boards, I don't see it in the pics.
 
alphatest said:
I really don't want to be banned, I enjoy reading posts on this board. But this is totally incorrect. 200mgs is generally a supra physiological dose of T. Many hormone replacement regimens use 100mg of Test E every week or 200mg every two weeks. This amount of test is sufficient to raise blood levels as high as 1200ng/dL. I don't get what your trying to argue, 100mg can easily put you at 900ng/dL. If your so certain it can't, provide some evidence otherwise.

Ref: Pharmacokinetics, Efficacy, and Safety of a Permeation-Enhanced Testosterone Transdermal System in Comparison with Bi-Weekly Injections of Testosterone Enanthate for the Treatment of Hypogonadal Men (Look at the graph)

To tell people

you will not get banned for a post that respectufully disagrees or takes issues with another member, mod, sponsor (unless you disagree with Digger then you are on your own :worried: .)

but, the problem with the study is that it is on congenital or unknown cause "Hypogonadal Men"--not those temp supressed via endogenous testosterone. Those men had some sort lh/fsh/gnrh or pituitary issues not an normal man artifically supressed.
 
c3bodybuilding said:
I will say this much, when Nelson competed, he looked better than most on this board, and def. better than a lot in this thread. No offense to anyone but for all the high dosages I see around the boards, I don't see it in the pics.

+1 true and painful, but true.
 
alphatest said:
I really don't want to be banned, I enjoy reading posts on this board. But this is totally incorrect. 200mgs is generally a supra physiological dose of T. Many hormone replacement regimens use 100mg of Test E every week or 200mg every two weeks. This amount of test is sufficient to raise blood levels as high as 1200ng/dL. I don't get what your trying to argue, 100mg can easily put you at 900ng/dL. If your so certain it can't, provide some evidence otherwise.

Ref: Pharmacokinetics, Efficacy, and Safety of a Permeation-Enhanced Testosterone Transdermal System in Comparison with Bi-Weekly Injections of Testosterone Enanthate for the Treatment of Hypogonadal Men (Look at the graph)

To tell people

No fear of getting banned for stating an opinion bro. But I think you're missing the point. 100 mgs can bring you to 900, if you still have some T in you. If you were in double digits, no way. The study you cite does not show otherwise.

And Ross, yes I know there's a curve but you too keep missing the point. Why would ANYONE need more than 200mgs if it'll raise your T to that level from next to nothing? But it seems you're looking to split hairs here. Are you saying your supps won't do anything for the enhanced athlete? The ones I recommend have already proven to do so.

C3 -- glad to hear the methods are working for you. Some old, some radically new. Bottom line -- whatever works, is worthwhile.
 
Nelson Montana said:
No fear of getting banned for stating an opinion bro. But I think you're missing the point. 100 mgs can bring you to 900, if you still have some T in you. If you were in double digits, no way. The study you cite does not show otherwise.

And Ross, yes I know there's a curve but you too keep missing the point. Why would ANYONE need more than 200mgs if it'll raise your T to that level from next to nothing? But it seems you're looking to split hairs here. Are you saying your supps won't do anything for the enhanced athlete? The ones I recommend have already proven to do so.

C3 -- glad to hear the methods are working for you. Some old, some radically new. Bottom line -- whatever works, is worthwhile.

Nelson, I tested at 1850 when I was 20 years old, 2,000ng/dl is not even a supraphysiological level. 200mgs of Testosterone is the MINIUMUM dosage for bodybuilders my friend, 500mgs being average for most users.
 
For the record, I have NEVER exceeded 750mgs of Testosterone, and I have the pics to back up my physique and my knowledge.
 
Nelson Montana said:
So you're saying if i come off, My T will be near zero? That makes no sense bro. If that were the case, 100 mgs would not get me to 900 ngs.

It could get you close, especially if you got your blood drawn 2-3 days after your injection. I have heard you say before that your natural T was not totally shut down, but I don't think these numbers prove it. I am on the same TRT dose, and would like it if I was still producing natural T, but I am still not convinced. I know 200 mgs can produce a reading of 1400 a few days after injection since I had mine tested, so 100 mg's could probably produce 700 at least.
 
Nelson Montana said:
100 mgs can bring you to 900, if you still have some T in you. If you were in double digits, no way. The study you cite does not show otherwise.

.

Let's assume the study does not show otherwise. Where is your evidence to show that 100 mgs cannot bring you to 900 on its own (without the addition of natural T)?
 
Ross said:
Nelson, I tested at 1850 when I was 20 years old, 2,000ng/dl is not even a supraphysiological level. 200mgs of Testosterone is the MINIUMUM dosage for bodybuilders my friend, 500mgs being average for most users.

You were 1850 NATURAL? That, my friend, sounds like a stretch. Maybe you're a freak. I don't know. 2000 isn't considered supraphysiological? 900 is considered out of range. Over 1000 is considered high risk. Where are you getting your numbers from?

You never exceeded 750 of test, but what else did you take along with the test? I never exceeded 750 of EVERYTHING. And when I competed my weekly total was under 400 mgs. (200 mgs of deca a week and 25 mgs of dboll a day). And that was for a one month cycle per contest.

But this is neither here nor there. I invite everyone to do a pre and post Free T test using UNLEASHED. I'm confident, their numbers will improve. And if that's the case who gives a fuck about all this other stuff?
 
Nelson Montana said:
No fear of getting banned for stating an opinion bro. But I think you're missing the point. 100 mgs can bring you to 900, if you still have some T in you. If you were in double digits, no way. The study you cite does not show otherwise.


Show some evidence. Both studies I cited show that 100mgs of IM test can both bring blood levels up into the supra physiological range as well as significantly suppress Lh and FSH. This means that your natty production is going to be significantly suppressed as well. If your total test level is Natty + Injected, I have no idea why you are assuming that your natural production is playing any great role in the equation.
 
Nelson Montana said:
You were 1850 NATURAL? That, my friend, sounds like a stretch. Maybe you're a freak. I don't know. 2000 isn't considered supraphysiological? 900 is considered out of range. Over 1000 is considered high risk. Where are you getting your numbers from?

You never exceeded 750 of test, but what else did you take along with the test? I never exceeded 750 of EVERYTHING. And when I competed my weekly total was under 400 mgs. (200 mgs of deca a week and 25 mgs of dboll a day). And that was for a one month cycle per contest.

But this is neither here nor there. I invite everyone to do a pre and post Free T test using UNLEASHED. I'm confident, their numbers will improve. And if that's the case who gives a fuck about all this other stuff?

Granted, 1850 is insanely high, I have great genetics indeed. Many 19-21 year olds will test that high though, which is why it is TRUE that teenagers don't need steroids! :)

As for my cycles, I have exceeded 750mgs for sure, my typical cycle contains about that:

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon, 250mgs
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 400mgs
Weeks 8-12: Winstrol, 50mgs ED


If you want to increase FREE T, nothing is more effective than LJ100, 300mgs of which is contained in AndroGenerator:


THE ANABOLIC EFFECTS OF LJ100™
For a printable copy of this study, please click here: http://www.source-1-global.com/pdfs/LJ100-Clinical-Studies.pdf

Sareena Hanim Hamzah & Ashril Yusof
Department of Exercise Physiology, Sports Centre, University of Malaya, Kuala Lumpur

Introduction
Eurycoma longifolia (LJ100™) is a tall shrub tree of a Simaroubaceace family and is commonly found along the hilly jungle slopes of Malaysia. It has been used for years as a traditional medicine to treat fever, ulcer, malarial, swelling, reduce high blood pressure and fatigue. However, LJ100 is better known for its aphrodisiac properties. In a clinical study by Ismail (2002), he demonstrated that this herb enhanced sexual activities and increased free testosterone levels in men. Increases in testosterone levels is associated with an improvement in fat free mass, muscle size and muscle strength in men (Brodsky, 1996; Bhasin, 1997), which could be further amplified by strength training (Bhasin, 1996). In this study, the effect of LJ100 water-soluble extract on body composition and muscle size in men will be measured.

Methods
Fourteen healthy adult males (age 25.64 ? 3.73 years) received either 100 mg/day LJ100 water-soluble extract (n = 7) or placebo (n = 7) for 8 weeks. Simultaneously, both groups performed an intensive strength-training program with initial load of 60% repetition maximum (RM), which was carried out on alternate days. A total of 10 exercises, which make up the circuit, were catered towards providing a total lower body and upper body workout. Each workout was done in two sets of 10 repetitions with 1-minute rest in between. The loads were gradually increased 10% per week. Body composition measurement using skin fold test was taken at two sites as recommended by McArdle (1993). A standard strength test that comprised of 1 RM test was administered on the subject to determine their strength. The upper limb strength was measured by determining their ability to resist maximum load using the shoulder press machine (Nautilus, USA) following the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM, 2001) standard measurement procedure. The arm circumference measurement was taken using a measuring tape at proximal 1/3rd of the arm. Electromyography reading of the isometric contraction of bicep muscle was taken using the surface electrodes. Subjects were instructed to perform an isokinetic flexion of the elbow using free barbells with load of 10 kg for the durations of 5 seconds. The mean amplitude was analyzed using the MyoResearch Software (Noraxon, USA).
All the measurements were taken 1 day prior to supplementation (LJ100 and placebo) and training period, and 1 day after the completion of 8 weeks experiment. All data were analyzed using the Statistical Package for Social Science (SPSS) computer software version 10.0 (2000) for t-test, means and standard deviation. Statistical significance was established at p<0.05.

Results
The results for fat free mass, fat mass, 1 RM, arm circumference, and sEMG of both groups are shown in Table 1.

Table 1. Average fat free mass, fat mass, 1 RM test, arm circumference and sEMG of the group consuming LJ100 water soluble extract and placebo before and after the period of supplementation and training program


* Results of mean ± SD for pre and post experiment showed significant difference (p<0.05)

The fat free mass of the group supplemented with LJ100 water-soluble extract showed a significant increment of approximately 2.1 kg. There were no significant changes in fat free mass in placebo. Body fat percentages were significantly decreased in treatment and placebo. However, a greater decrement was shown in treatment compared to placebo i.e. 9.14% and 6.57%, respectively. The 1 RM test muscle strength test showed an increase in gross muscle power in both groups. The treatment group showed a greater increment in strength compared to placebo i.e. 6.78% and 2.77%, respectively. The mean arm circumference in treatment group increased significantly by 1.8 cm following the supplementation while no significant changes observed in placebo group. The mean sEMG reading of the treatment and placebo showed a significant decrement in values after going through the exercise program. However, the treatment group showed 2.92% higher reduction in electrical activity of the muscle measured at the end of the experiment period compared to placebo (25.70% and 22.78%, respectively). During and after the administration of LJ100, no adverse effects were noted within the treatment group.

Discussion/ Conclusion
In this study, although the testosterone level was not measured during the test period, an increased in fat free mass in treatment group may be linked to the rise in steroidal hormones in the body. The percentage of body fat appeared to decrease in both groups, this finding is in agreement with a study by Brodsky (1996). However, the further decrease in fat mass by the treatment group could be explained by the higher metabolic rate after consuming LJ100. The increment in muscle strength with strength training in both the treatment and placebo groups were consistent with the finding by Kraemer (1993), he suggested that the improvement in strength was caused by the increase in testosterone levels. Jones and Round (1996) proposed that increases in strength are greater than increases in muscle size during the first 6-8 weeks of strength training. Thus, an increase in arm circumference observed in treatment group could be explained by the testosterone enhancing effect of the extract. In conclusion, results obtained from this pilot study suggest that the administration of LJ100 improved fat free mass, reduce fat mass, increase muscle strength and size suggesting LJ100 might be used as an ergogenic aid. Further studies will be carried out to determine the mechanism of action at hormonal and molecular level.

Water-soluble extract of LJ100™ as a potential
natural energizer for healthy aging in men.
M.I.M.TAMBI1, S. OTHMAN2and J.M SAAD2

1Specialist Reproductive Research Center, National Population & Family Development Board, Ministry of Women & Family Development, Malaysia.
2Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Malaya, Malaysia.

Introduction
Malaysia has a rich source of rainforests that contain thousands of plants with potential medicinal values. One such plant is the tall shrub tree from the Simaroubaceace family, Eurycoma Longifolia (LJ100™ Tongkat Ali) which is commonly found along the hilly jungle slopes of Malaysia (Burkill and Hanif, 1930). The local name of the shrub is 'Tongkat Ali' or Ali's Walking Stick' which is rather suggestive of its traditional function of sexual support for aging males. Similar trees are also found in other Asian Rainforests; however, it is traditionally known that only two species of the shrub namely E.Longifolia and E.apiculata have medicinal properties (Burkill and Hanif, 1930). The medicinal elements are only found within the roots. The root of Eurycoma Longifolia was used as a decoction by the natives of old Malaya, especially the elderly for strength and energy (Burkill and Hanif,1930), this practice remains to this day.
Early experimental studies on animals were mainly focused on the aphrodisiac properties of LJ100. Mice treated LJ100 demonstrated higher frequency of mounting compared to the control group (Ali and Saad, 1993). Additionally, the serum testosterone of the dissected mice showed an increase of 480% compared to the placebo-controlled group (Ali and Saad, 1993). Further studies provided evidence that LJ100 produced a dose-dependent increase in mounting frequency in male rats, hence, acting as a potent stimulator of sexual arousal in the absence of feedback from genital sensation (Ang and Sim,1997). It was also shown that LJ100enhanced and maintained a high level of crossovers, mountings, intromissions, and ejaculations.

Other studies showed that when the extract of LJ100 was injected into male mice, they showed intense physical activities and copulatory behavior (Ang and Sim, 1998). Even frail mice were observed to be active and alert. In another study, LJ100 was exposed to penile muscular tissue of male mice; results demonstrated that the muscular tissue was found to relax. Analysis on the mitochondria homogenates of the liver and penile muscle of the mice showed that the extract could enhance the respiration of mitochondria, leading to 60% increase in ATP production through oxidative phosphorylation (Khamis and Saad, 1993).

Early clinical trials studied the effect of LJ100 on testicular tissues. The samples were incubated along with human testicular tissues taken from men who were orchidectomised as part of treatment of prostate cancer (Aminuddin et al, 1995). There was significant increase in the concentration of testosterone and its precursors. The results suggest that the LJ100 has the ability to increase the biosynthesis of androgens (Aminuddin et al, 1995).


Androgen is the generic term for any natural or synthetic compound, usually a steroid hormone, that stimulates or controls the development and maintenance of masculine characteristics in vertebrates. This includes the activity of the accessory male sex organs and development of male secondary sex characteristics. The primary, and most well known, androgen is testosterone.

In this study, we intend to investigate the effect of the LJ100 water-soluble extract on testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels in human subjects. Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a natural steroid hormone produced from cholesterol by the adrenal glands. Dehydroepiandrosterone is structurally similar to testosterone and estrone and can be easily converted into those hormones (DHEA is a precursor for testosterone). Sex hormone binding globulins are carrier proteins that regulate the amount of unbound steroid in the blood. A decrease in SHBG is associated with an improvement in free testosterone index. Additional parameters that will be measured include Quality Of Life (QOL) via the PADAM score and Sexual Health Inventory Questionnaires (SHI-Q).

Methodology
In a Reproductive Research Center in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 30 human volunteers were recruited in a randomized open trial. The volunteers were selected among married men whose age ranges between 31-52 years. There were no other specific criteria for the selection of volunteers. Dr. Johari M. Saad and co-workers from the Department of Biochemistry, University Malaya, Malaysia, produced LJ100 water-soluble extract of E.Longifolia root.
Upon registration, the volunteers were asked to fill out two questionnaires: (i) a validated Sexual Health Inventory Questionnaires (SHI-Q) and (ii) the PADAM Score Questionnaires. Peripheral venous blood sample was collected from each individual to evaluate his total testosterone hormone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEA) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels. Following this, each volunteer was given a supply of the encapsulated LJ100. These were to be consumed regularly for three consecutive weeks, twice daily, and two capsules per day (100 mg/day). The volunteers were requested to come back for a follow-up after week one and week three. During the follow-up sessions, they were asked to again fill out two sets of questionnaires and provide blood samples for analysis of serum testosterone, SHBG and DHEA.

Results
Questionnaires Analysis
Analysis of the SHI-Questionnaire results have shown that 62% of the cases had either increased or a maximum score after consuming LJ100. Another 24% showed reduction while 14% of the cases showed no change in the score (Figure 1). This indicates that the majority of the volunteers demonstrated an increase in their sexual health satisfaction and performance. Breakdown of the SHI-Questionnaire showed subjects has an increase in sexual desire and the success at the attempts at sexual intercourse.


Figure 1: Effect of LJ100™ consumption on SHI-Q Score


PADAM Analysis
Analysis of the PADAM Score demonstrated that 82% of the cases showed a decrease in total score (decrease is positive effect). There is 91% improvement in the sexual PADAM score component, a 73% improvement in the physical component, and an 82% improvement of psychological component. The vasomotor score showed improvement in 50% of the subjects (Figure 2). The improvements in the first three components of the PADAM score reflects that consumption of LJ100 had resulted in an improvement of their quality of life with regards to their physical, sexual and psychological well being.

Figure 2: Percentage of Improvement or Reduction for Various Components of the PADAM Score


Serum Hormones analysis
Testosterone
Total testosterone levels were not significantly different between those raised (43%) and those declined (39%) in this study (Table 1). This gives an initial impression that LJ100 does not have any effect on steroidogenesis. Considering that almost all the volunteers have normal levels of total testosterone, the feedback system is activated to ensure the testosterone levels are within the individual needs range. In 6 volunteers whose serum total testosterone is low, there is an increase in total testosterone on first and third week as well as improvement in the Quality of Life Scores (SHI-Q and PADAM Score).





DHEA
Analysis of the DHEA showed gradual increase from 26% after 1 week to 47% after 3 weeks. This suggests that LJ100may influence the DHEA production, which subsequently would be aromatized to testosterone (Figure 3).

Figure 3: Percentage of Increment in DHEA level





SHBG Analysis
The results showed that SHBG levels were reduced in 36% of the cases after one week and improved to 66% after 3 weeks. This suggests that LJ100 could have an effect on the production of SHBG (Table 2).





Free Testosterone Index Analysis (FTI)
When the SHBG level declines, the Free Testosterone Index (FTI is calculated as a percentage of the total testosterone against SHBG) goes up. Results demonstrated that the FTI increased in 39% of the subjects after 1 week to 73% after 3 weeks (Table 3)




Conclusion
Increasing testosterone is the key factor in increasing sex drive. Testosterone is the most important of the male sex hormones, known as androgens, produced in the gonads. Testosterone plays a key role in the development and maturity of male sex organs. The hormone promotes secondary sex characteristics, including the appearance of facial hair, sexual desire, and sexual behavior. However, testosterone is not just a sex booster for men. Women also produce testosterone, about 5 to 10 percent the amount produced in men. In woman, this vital hormone also stimulates sex drive and produces heightened sensitivity of erogenous zones.

In this study, the aqueous LJ100 extract has a strong potential in providing sufficient free testosterone to the body as demonstrated by the increase in the free testosterone index between weeks one and three. The high score in the Physical and Sexual Domain of PADAM and the Desire and Sexual Attempts in the SHI-Q score suggests this extract can delivery sexual health effects for both men and women.

The results demonstrated that the circulating androgen concentration affects SHBG synthesis. The increase in DHEA levels (DHEA is a precursor to testosterone) between week 1 and week 3 resulted in elevated testosterone levels that caused a decrease in SHBG levels. It is important to note the any decrease in SHBG levels has an overall effect to increase free testosterone index as indicated in table 3. The results of this study suggest that LJ100 inhibits SHBG allowing more free testosterone to remain in the blood. This additional testosterone stems the aging process, improves energy and sexual function, and helps reduce body fat and reduces the risk factors associated with heart health.

Since this study is just an exploratory study to look into the marketing potential of LJ100, the volunteers were asked about personal feedbacks with regard to the extract. The following responses were received:
48% felt that they are feeling healthy, not easily tired, feeling active and energized.
40% felt easily aroused, increase sexual desire and maintained an erection longer.
16% felt their joints and backache are feeling better.
24% felt warm and easily sweat (sign of better circulation)
8% experience better sleep.
8% felt an improvement in their memory.
20% felt their appetite has improved and their bowel movements are better than before.

References
1.Burkill, IH and Hanif, M; (1930) Malay Village Medicine, The Garden Bulletin Strait Settlements.
2.Ali, JM and Saad, JM (1993); Biochemical effect of Eurycoma Longifolia Jack on the sexual behavior, fertility, sex hormone and glycolysis. Dissertation Paper for Bachelor of Science, Department of Biochemistry, University of Malaya
3.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1997); Effect of Eurycoma Longifolia Jack on sexual behavior of male rats. Archives of Pharmacal Research (Seoul),20(5),656-58
4.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1998)[1]; Eurycoma Longifolia Jack and orientation in sexually experiences male rats. Biol and Pharmaceutical Bulletin 21(2);153-55
5.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1998)[2]; Eurycoma Longifolia Jack increases sexual motivation in sexually naive male rats. Archives of Pharmacal Research (Seoul),21(6),778-81
6.Khamis, ZM and Saad, JM (1993); Dissertation Paper for Bachelor of Science, Department of Biochemistry, University of Malaya.
7.Aminuddin, N; Saad, JM; Hadi, AH and Abdullah, R (1995); The effect of Eurycoma Longifolia extracts on androgen synthesis.


LJ100™ Saliva Testosterone Test

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of age
Dosage 2x2 (50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days
Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood



Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times
Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

Conclusion
The results demonstrate that 100 mg per day of LJ100 caused an increase in bioavailability testosterone within 10 days. Furthermore, all subjects (athletes and non-athletes) showed a positive increase in testosterone suggesting that LJ100 causes an increase in the free testosterone index.

Effect of LJ100 Tongkat Ali on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise

Talbott S, Talbott J, Negrete J, Jones M, Nichols M, and Roza J. Effect of Eurycoma longifolia Extract on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise. SupplementWatch, Inc. Draper, UT, 84020 USA and Source One Global Partners, Chicago, IL 60611 USA. [email protected]

Eurycoma longifolia, commonly known as “Tongkat Ali” or “Longjack,” is often touted as a testosterone “booster” and marketed to athletes as a training aid and performance enhancer. Rodent studies have shown oral delivery of Eurycoma extract to improve sexual performance and increase serum testosterone levels. Open-label human trials have suggested that Eurycoma extract may help prevent age-associated androgen deficiency, improve sexual function, and increase psychological parameters such as mood, energy, and sense of well-being. The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of Eurycoma longifolia on testosterone and cortisol levels during intense endurance exercise. We used a water-soluble extract of Eurycoma longifolia (E) standardized to 22% eurypeptides and 40% glycosaponins. Male subjects (N=30) were recruited from a 24-hour mountain biking event and asked to provide a saliva sample before and after each lap for measurement of cortisol and testosterone by enzyme immunoassay (Salimetrics, State College, PA). Subjects completed 4 laps (14.91 miles/lap) and provided 8 saliva samples over a 24h period. Subjects consumed 100mg of E or a look-alike placebo (P) approximately 30 minutes prior to endurance exercise. Cortisol levels were 32.3% lower in E compared to P (0.552+0.665 versus 0.816+0.775 ug/dL, P < 0.05). Testosterone levels were 16.4% higher in E compared to P (86.72+40.90 versus 72.47+33.77 pg/mL, P < 0.05). These results suggest that Eurycoma longifolia extract may help to maintain normal levels of cortisol (low) and testosterone (high) and thus promote an overall “anabolic” hormonal state (versus a “catabolic” state characterized by elevated cortisol and suppressed testosterone) during intense endurance exercise.
 
alphatest said:
Show some evidence. Both studies I cited show that 100mgs of IM test can both bring blood levels up into the supra physiological range as well as significantly suppress Lh and FSH. This means that your natty production is going to be significantly suppressed as well. If your total test level is Natty + Injected, I have no idea why you are assuming that your natural production is playing any great role in the equation.

Exactly, great post my friend.
 
Ross said:
Granted, 1850 is insanely high, I have great genetics indeed. Many 19-21 year olds will test that high though, which is why it is TRUE that teenagers don't need steroids! :)

As for my cycles, I have exceeded 750mgs for sure, my typical cycle contains about that:

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon, 250mgs
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 400mgs
Weeks 8-12: Winstrol, 50mgs ED


If you want to increase FREE T, nothing is more effective than LJ100, 300mgs of which is contained in AndroGenerator:

.

how about plain old proviron--sticks to SHBG like glue and free test goes through the roof.
 
Ross said:
No Nelson, it is a CURVE.

Even so, 100mgs of exogenous Testosterone will put most individuals in the 600-900ng/dl range, and 200mgs will put most individuals in the 1500-2,000 range.

Do you have any evidence on that one, you know I am going to check.

There are a lot of drugs that do not have a linear dose - response curve, which is why the levels are checked, referred to as therapeutic drug monitoring (TDM), which is another thing I do daily in the lab.

Considering how much nattie T levels can vary, how much testicle size can vary (yes back on the balls), how much variation there can be in the efficiency of enzymes like 5 alpha reductase and hormone receptors, I doubt it would be all that easy to predict.

Again, what is your educational background in this area?

I really have to get on and read that androgens and androgen receptors in health and pathology text I picked up recently.
 
Tatyana said:
Do you have any evidence on that one, you know I am going to check.

There are a lot of drugs that do not have a linear dose - response curve, which is why the levels are checked, referred to as therapeutic drug monitoring (TDM), which is another thing I do daily in the lab.

Considering how much nattie T levels can vary, how much testicle size can vary (yes back on the balls), how much variation there can be in the efficiency of enzymes like 5 alpha reductase and hormone receptors, I doubt it would be all that easy to predict.

Again, what is your educational background in this area?

I really have to get on and read that androgens and androgen receptors in health and pathology text I picked up recently.
Yes tat you are correct test does not have a liner response curve.

many people think that taking 100mg of test will increase the ratio 400 nd/gl
so 200mg would increase it 800 nd/gl.
So people would f figure that 1000mg of test wil increase the the amount by 4000 nd/gl
Not true.
The higher the dose of test the more conversion to estrogen , dht and a dozen or so other hormones takes place.
the drop off after the 2000nd/gl mark in the body is pretty high.
besides a person only has so many steroid receptors these mega doses is just overkill most of the steroid never gets to bind.
 
chazk said:
Yes tat you are correct test does not have a liner response curve.

many people think that taking 100mg of test will increase the ratio 400 nd/gl
so 200mg would increase it 800 nd/gl.
So people would f figure that 1000mg of test wil increase the the amount by 4000 nd/gl
Not true.
The higher the dose of test the more conversion to estrogen , dht and a dozen or so other hormones takes place.
the drop off after the 2000nd/gl mark in the body is pretty high.
besides a person only has so many steroid receptors these mega doses is just overkill most of the steroid never gets to bind.

Don't let the bunny costume fool you, it does seem to confuse a few of the noobs, they ignore my advice at times.

I think it is funny :)
 
c3bodybuilding said:
Great thread. Although, I gotta add, Nelson has a lot of ideas that may seem off to some, but if you give them a try or look at it a different way, you'll see where he is coming from.

After reading his first ebook many years ago, I started taking a lot of the old time supps, Rheo Blair style. I still use those methods today to build my body further and further.

I will say this much, when Nelson competed, he looked better than most on this board, and def. better than a lot in this thread. No offense to anyone but for all the high dosages I see around the boards, I don't see it in the pics.



i concur :)
 
eddymerckx said:
you will not get banned for a post that respectufully disagrees or takes issues with another member, mod, sponsor (unless you disagree with Digger then you are on your own :worried: .)

but, the problem with the study is that it is on congenital or unknown cause "Hypogonadal Men"--not those temp supressed via endogenous testosterone. Those men had some sort lh/fsh/gnrh or pituitary issues not an normal man artifically supressed.

I'm not about to ban a college student for a respectful, fact-based post. Carry on, gents.
 
Ross said:
If you want to increase FREE T, nothing is more effective than LJ100, 300mgs of which is contained in AndroGenerator:

......................................................................


I'm having a hard time believing that.

Here's why:


The ingredients.

Longjack. Let's forget the long study you posted which is just a lot of double talk put out by the company. To be honest, LJ may have some benefits. Nothing has been proven in regard to it being a sex stimulent or its ability to raise free T but who knows? Personally it did NOTHING for me, but maybe you use a good quality and it has value. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Tribulus: Come on, this stuff is a bust. The supp companies have been pushing it on newbies for over 10 years. If this stuff worked we'd have some evidence by now. There's some speculation Trib increases estrogen, which in some people might increase libido. It DOES NOT increase free T.

Vitex. Sorry, but this is a horrible ingredient. Vitex is classified as an ANTI ANDROGEN. Read: http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...lactin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=safari

Do you know how Vitex got a rep? Because about 6 years ago that idiot Bill Roberts did some research and found it decreased estrogen so the morons at Biotest promoted it as such. What they didn't realize is that it decreases estrogen by increasing progesterone and prolactin. This is why it is called CHASTE-berry. It kills libido. It's also why they halted production on it. Everybody was losing their dicks. Get with the times bro. You really should consider removing it.
 
Nelson Montana said:
You were 1850 NATURAL? That, my friend, sounds like a stretch. Maybe you're a freak. I don't know. 2000 isn't considered supraphysiological? 900 is considered out of range. Over 1000 is considered high risk. Where are you getting your numbers from?

You never exceeded 750 of test, but what else did you take along with the test? I never exceeded 750 of EVERYTHING. And when I competed my weekly total was under 400 mgs. (200 mgs of deca a week and 25 mgs of dboll a day). And that was for a one month cycle per contest.

But this is neither here nor there. I invite everyone to do a pre and post Free T test using UNLEASHED. I'm confident, their numbers will improve. And if that's the case who gives a fuck about all this other stuff?

Unbias plug here, I have used Nelson's Unleased for PCT and had blood work done 2-3 weeks later and found that COMPARED to my base line levels my total, and free test was higher than the original baseline levels. Not radically higher but it was higher.

I also used short esters so any argument that would state there was still some substance in my bloodstream at the time should be eliminated.
 
Everything is advertisement for you....Sheeeesh. You told me several times before that when you are "off" that you are actually on 200mgs of primo{maybe even var, proviron, d-bol, or even better omni-bolic :) } and that it did not suppress you or your HPTA...These were your exact words.

So that 1850 I would assume is an "Enhanced" number...Essentially you have been on something for years, so your T levels mean little to nothing IMO{Yet you still try to feed me some bullshit line}.

And yes Nelson if you came of your HRT you would most def be in the hypogonadal range...200 ng/dl or below, make no mistake about that.

Also I'm presrcibed 200mgs per week and that puts me around 1200 ng/dl...So the numbers vary for everyone.

Ross said:
Granted, 1850 is insanely high, I have great genetics indeed. Many 19-21 year olds will test that high though, which is why it is TRUE that teenagers don't need steroids! :)

As for my cycles, I have exceeded 750mgs for sure, my typical cycle contains about that:

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Sustanon, 250mgs
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 400mgs
Weeks 8-12: Winstrol, 50mgs ED


If you want to increase FREE T, nothing is more effective than LJ100, 300mgs of which is contained in AndroGenerator:


THE ANABOLIC EFFECTS OF LJ100™
For a printable copy of this study, please click here: http://www.source-1-global.com/pdfs/LJ100-Clinical-Studies.pdf

Sareena Hanim Hamzah & Ashril Yusof
Department of Exercise Physiology, Sports Centre, University of Malaya, Kuala Lumpur

Introduction
Eurycoma longifolia (LJ100™) is a tall shrub tree of a Simaroubaceace family and is commonly found along the hilly jungle slopes of Malaysia. It has been used for years as a traditional medicine to treat fever, ulcer, malarial, swelling, reduce high blood pressure and fatigue. However, LJ100 is better known for its aphrodisiac properties. In a clinical study by Ismail (2002), he demonstrated that this herb enhanced sexual activities and increased free testosterone levels in men. Increases in testosterone levels is associated with an improvement in fat free mass, muscle size and muscle strength in men (Brodsky, 1996; Bhasin, 1997), which could be further amplified by strength training (Bhasin, 1996). In this study, the effect of LJ100 water-soluble extract on body composition and muscle size in men will be measured.

Methods
Fourteen healthy adult males (age 25.64 ? 3.73 years) received either 100 mg/day LJ100 water-soluble extract (n = 7) or placebo (n = 7) for 8 weeks. Simultaneously, both groups performed an intensive strength-training program with initial load of 60% repetition maximum (RM), which was carried out on alternate days. A total of 10 exercises, which make up the circuit, were catered towards providing a total lower body and upper body workout. Each workout was done in two sets of 10 repetitions with 1-minute rest in between. The loads were gradually increased 10% per week. Body composition measurement using skin fold test was taken at two sites as recommended by McArdle (1993). A standard strength test that comprised of 1 RM test was administered on the subject to determine their strength. The upper limb strength was measured by determining their ability to resist maximum load using the shoulder press machine (Nautilus, USA) following the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM, 2001) standard measurement procedure. The arm circumference measurement was taken using a measuring tape at proximal 1/3rd of the arm. Electromyography reading of the isometric contraction of bicep muscle was taken using the surface electrodes. Subjects were instructed to perform an isokinetic flexion of the elbow using free barbells with load of 10 kg for the durations of 5 seconds. The mean amplitude was analyzed using the MyoResearch Software (Noraxon, USA).
All the measurements were taken 1 day prior to supplementation (LJ100 and placebo) and training period, and 1 day after the completion of 8 weeks experiment. All data were analyzed using the Statistical Package for Social Science (SPSS) computer software version 10.0 (2000) for t-test, means and standard deviation. Statistical significance was established at p<0.05.

Results
The results for fat free mass, fat mass, 1 RM, arm circumference, and sEMG of both groups are shown in Table 1.

Table 1. Average fat free mass, fat mass, 1 RM test, arm circumference and sEMG of the group consuming LJ100 water soluble extract and placebo before and after the period of supplementation and training program


* Results of mean ± SD for pre and post experiment showed significant difference (p<0.05)

The fat free mass of the group supplemented with LJ100 water-soluble extract showed a significant increment of approximately 2.1 kg. There were no significant changes in fat free mass in placebo. Body fat percentages were significantly decreased in treatment and placebo. However, a greater decrement was shown in treatment compared to placebo i.e. 9.14% and 6.57%, respectively. The 1 RM test muscle strength test showed an increase in gross muscle power in both groups. The treatment group showed a greater increment in strength compared to placebo i.e. 6.78% and 2.77%, respectively. The mean arm circumference in treatment group increased significantly by 1.8 cm following the supplementation while no significant changes observed in placebo group. The mean sEMG reading of the treatment and placebo showed a significant decrement in values after going through the exercise program. However, the treatment group showed 2.92% higher reduction in electrical activity of the muscle measured at the end of the experiment period compared to placebo (25.70% and 22.78%, respectively). During and after the administration of LJ100, no adverse effects were noted within the treatment group.

Discussion/ Conclusion
In this study, although the testosterone level was not measured during the test period, an increased in fat free mass in treatment group may be linked to the rise in steroidal hormones in the body. The percentage of body fat appeared to decrease in both groups, this finding is in agreement with a study by Brodsky (1996). However, the further decrease in fat mass by the treatment group could be explained by the higher metabolic rate after consuming LJ100. The increment in muscle strength with strength training in both the treatment and placebo groups were consistent with the finding by Kraemer (1993), he suggested that the improvement in strength was caused by the increase in testosterone levels. Jones and Round (1996) proposed that increases in strength are greater than increases in muscle size during the first 6-8 weeks of strength training. Thus, an increase in arm circumference observed in treatment group could be explained by the testosterone enhancing effect of the extract. In conclusion, results obtained from this pilot study suggest that the administration of LJ100 improved fat free mass, reduce fat mass, increase muscle strength and size suggesting LJ100 might be used as an ergogenic aid. Further studies will be carried out to determine the mechanism of action at hormonal and molecular level.

Water-soluble extract of LJ100™ as a potential
natural energizer for healthy aging in men.
M.I.M.TAMBI1, S. OTHMAN2and J.M SAAD2

1Specialist Reproductive Research Center, National Population & Family Development Board, Ministry of Women & Family Development, Malaysia.
2Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Malaya, Malaysia.

Introduction
Malaysia has a rich source of rainforests that contain thousands of plants with potential medicinal values. One such plant is the tall shrub tree from the Simaroubaceace family, Eurycoma Longifolia (LJ100™ Tongkat Ali) which is commonly found along the hilly jungle slopes of Malaysia (Burkill and Hanif, 1930). The local name of the shrub is 'Tongkat Ali' or Ali's Walking Stick' which is rather suggestive of its traditional function of sexual support for aging males. Similar trees are also found in other Asian Rainforests; however, it is traditionally known that only two species of the shrub namely E.Longifolia and E.apiculata have medicinal properties (Burkill and Hanif, 1930). The medicinal elements are only found within the roots. The root of Eurycoma Longifolia was used as a decoction by the natives of old Malaya, especially the elderly for strength and energy (Burkill and Hanif,1930), this practice remains to this day.
Early experimental studies on animals were mainly focused on the aphrodisiac properties of LJ100. Mice treated LJ100 demonstrated higher frequency of mounting compared to the control group (Ali and Saad, 1993). Additionally, the serum testosterone of the dissected mice showed an increase of 480% compared to the placebo-controlled group (Ali and Saad, 1993). Further studies provided evidence that LJ100 produced a dose-dependent increase in mounting frequency in male rats, hence, acting as a potent stimulator of sexual arousal in the absence of feedback from genital sensation (Ang and Sim,1997). It was also shown that LJ100enhanced and maintained a high level of crossovers, mountings, intromissions, and ejaculations.

Other studies showed that when the extract of LJ100 was injected into male mice, they showed intense physical activities and copulatory behavior (Ang and Sim, 1998). Even frail mice were observed to be active and alert. In another study, LJ100 was exposed to penile muscular tissue of male mice; results demonstrated that the muscular tissue was found to relax. Analysis on the mitochondria homogenates of the liver and penile muscle of the mice showed that the extract could enhance the respiration of mitochondria, leading to 60% increase in ATP production through oxidative phosphorylation (Khamis and Saad, 1993).

Early clinical trials studied the effect of LJ100 on testicular tissues. The samples were incubated along with human testicular tissues taken from men who were orchidectomised as part of treatment of prostate cancer (Aminuddin et al, 1995). There was significant increase in the concentration of testosterone and its precursors. The results suggest that the LJ100 has the ability to increase the biosynthesis of androgens (Aminuddin et al, 1995).


Androgen is the generic term for any natural or synthetic compound, usually a steroid hormone, that stimulates or controls the development and maintenance of masculine characteristics in vertebrates. This includes the activity of the accessory male sex organs and development of male secondary sex characteristics. The primary, and most well known, androgen is testosterone.

In this study, we intend to investigate the effect of the LJ100 water-soluble extract on testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels in human subjects. Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a natural steroid hormone produced from cholesterol by the adrenal glands. Dehydroepiandrosterone is structurally similar to testosterone and estrone and can be easily converted into those hormones (DHEA is a precursor for testosterone). Sex hormone binding globulins are carrier proteins that regulate the amount of unbound steroid in the blood. A decrease in SHBG is associated with an improvement in free testosterone index. Additional parameters that will be measured include Quality Of Life (QOL) via the PADAM score and Sexual Health Inventory Questionnaires (SHI-Q).

Methodology
In a Reproductive Research Center in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 30 human volunteers were recruited in a randomized open trial. The volunteers were selected among married men whose age ranges between 31-52 years. There were no other specific criteria for the selection of volunteers. Dr. Johari M. Saad and co-workers from the Department of Biochemistry, University Malaya, Malaysia, produced LJ100 water-soluble extract of E.Longifolia root.
Upon registration, the volunteers were asked to fill out two questionnaires: (i) a validated Sexual Health Inventory Questionnaires (SHI-Q) and (ii) the PADAM Score Questionnaires. Peripheral venous blood sample was collected from each individual to evaluate his total testosterone hormone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEA) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels. Following this, each volunteer was given a supply of the encapsulated LJ100. These were to be consumed regularly for three consecutive weeks, twice daily, and two capsules per day (100 mg/day). The volunteers were requested to come back for a follow-up after week one and week three. During the follow-up sessions, they were asked to again fill out two sets of questionnaires and provide blood samples for analysis of serum testosterone, SHBG and DHEA.

Results
Questionnaires Analysis
Analysis of the SHI-Questionnaire results have shown that 62% of the cases had either increased or a maximum score after consuming LJ100. Another 24% showed reduction while 14% of the cases showed no change in the score (Figure 1). This indicates that the majority of the volunteers demonstrated an increase in their sexual health satisfaction and performance. Breakdown of the SHI-Questionnaire showed subjects has an increase in sexual desire and the success at the attempts at sexual intercourse.


Figure 1: Effect of LJ100™ consumption on SHI-Q Score


PADAM Analysis
Analysis of the PADAM Score demonstrated that 82% of the cases showed a decrease in total score (decrease is positive effect). There is 91% improvement in the sexual PADAM score component, a 73% improvement in the physical component, and an 82% improvement of psychological component. The vasomotor score showed improvement in 50% of the subjects (Figure 2). The improvements in the first three components of the PADAM score reflects that consumption of LJ100 had resulted in an improvement of their quality of life with regards to their physical, sexual and psychological well being.

Figure 2: Percentage of Improvement or Reduction for Various Components of the PADAM Score


Serum Hormones analysis
Testosterone
Total testosterone levels were not significantly different between those raised (43%) and those declined (39%) in this study (Table 1). This gives an initial impression that LJ100 does not have any effect on steroidogenesis. Considering that almost all the volunteers have normal levels of total testosterone, the feedback system is activated to ensure the testosterone levels are within the individual needs range. In 6 volunteers whose serum total testosterone is low, there is an increase in total testosterone on first and third week as well as improvement in the Quality of Life Scores (SHI-Q and PADAM Score).





DHEA
Analysis of the DHEA showed gradual increase from 26% after 1 week to 47% after 3 weeks. This suggests that LJ100may influence the DHEA production, which subsequently would be aromatized to testosterone (Figure 3).

Figure 3: Percentage of Increment in DHEA level





SHBG Analysis
The results showed that SHBG levels were reduced in 36% of the cases after one week and improved to 66% after 3 weeks. This suggests that LJ100 could have an effect on the production of SHBG (Table 2).





Free Testosterone Index Analysis (FTI)
When the SHBG level declines, the Free Testosterone Index (FTI is calculated as a percentage of the total testosterone against SHBG) goes up. Results demonstrated that the FTI increased in 39% of the subjects after 1 week to 73% after 3 weeks (Table 3)




Conclusion
Increasing testosterone is the key factor in increasing sex drive. Testosterone is the most important of the male sex hormones, known as androgens, produced in the gonads. Testosterone plays a key role in the development and maturity of male sex organs. The hormone promotes secondary sex characteristics, including the appearance of facial hair, sexual desire, and sexual behavior. However, testosterone is not just a sex booster for men. Women also produce testosterone, about 5 to 10 percent the amount produced in men. In woman, this vital hormone also stimulates sex drive and produces heightened sensitivity of erogenous zones.

In this study, the aqueous LJ100 extract has a strong potential in providing sufficient free testosterone to the body as demonstrated by the increase in the free testosterone index between weeks one and three. The high score in the Physical and Sexual Domain of PADAM and the Desire and Sexual Attempts in the SHI-Q score suggests this extract can delivery sexual health effects for both men and women.

The results demonstrated that the circulating androgen concentration affects SHBG synthesis. The increase in DHEA levels (DHEA is a precursor to testosterone) between week 1 and week 3 resulted in elevated testosterone levels that caused a decrease in SHBG levels. It is important to note the any decrease in SHBG levels has an overall effect to increase free testosterone index as indicated in table 3. The results of this study suggest that LJ100 inhibits SHBG allowing more free testosterone to remain in the blood. This additional testosterone stems the aging process, improves energy and sexual function, and helps reduce body fat and reduces the risk factors associated with heart health.

Since this study is just an exploratory study to look into the marketing potential of LJ100, the volunteers were asked about personal feedbacks with regard to the extract. The following responses were received:
48% felt that they are feeling healthy, not easily tired, feeling active and energized.
40% felt easily aroused, increase sexual desire and maintained an erection longer.
16% felt their joints and backache are feeling better.
24% felt warm and easily sweat (sign of better circulation)
8% experience better sleep.
8% felt an improvement in their memory.
20% felt their appetite has improved and their bowel movements are better than before.

References
1.Burkill, IH and Hanif, M; (1930) Malay Village Medicine, The Garden Bulletin Strait Settlements.
2.Ali, JM and Saad, JM (1993); Biochemical effect of Eurycoma Longifolia Jack on the sexual behavior, fertility, sex hormone and glycolysis. Dissertation Paper for Bachelor of Science, Department of Biochemistry, University of Malaya
3.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1997); Effect of Eurycoma Longifolia Jack on sexual behavior of male rats. Archives of Pharmacal Research (Seoul),20(5),656-58
4.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1998)[1]; Eurycoma Longifolia Jack and orientation in sexually experiences male rats. Biol and Pharmaceutical Bulletin 21(2);153-55
5.Ang, HH and Sim,MK (1998)[2]; Eurycoma Longifolia Jack increases sexual motivation in sexually naive male rats. Archives of Pharmacal Research (Seoul),21(6),778-81
6.Khamis, ZM and Saad, JM (1993); Dissertation Paper for Bachelor of Science, Department of Biochemistry, University of Malaya.
7.Aminuddin, N; Saad, JM; Hadi, AH and Abdullah, R (1995); The effect of Eurycoma Longifolia extracts on androgen synthesis.


LJ100™ Saliva Testosterone Test

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of age
Dosage 2x2 (50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days
Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood



Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times
Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

Conclusion
The results demonstrate that 100 mg per day of LJ100 caused an increase in bioavailability testosterone within 10 days. Furthermore, all subjects (athletes and non-athletes) showed a positive increase in testosterone suggesting that LJ100 causes an increase in the free testosterone index.

Effect of LJ100 Tongkat Ali on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise

Talbott S, Talbott J, Negrete J, Jones M, Nichols M, and Roza J. Effect of Eurycoma longifolia Extract on Anabolic Balance During Endurance Exercise. SupplementWatch, Inc. Draper, UT, 84020 USA and Source One Global Partners, Chicago, IL 60611 USA. [email protected]

Eurycoma longifolia, commonly known as “Tongkat Ali” or “Longjack,” is often touted as a testosterone “booster” and marketed to athletes as a training aid and performance enhancer. Rodent studies have shown oral delivery of Eurycoma extract to improve sexual performance and increase serum testosterone levels. Open-label human trials have suggested that Eurycoma extract may help prevent age-associated androgen deficiency, improve sexual function, and increase psychological parameters such as mood, energy, and sense of well-being. The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of Eurycoma longifolia on testosterone and cortisol levels during intense endurance exercise. We used a water-soluble extract of Eurycoma longifolia (E) standardized to 22% eurypeptides and 40% glycosaponins. Male subjects (N=30) were recruited from a 24-hour mountain biking event and asked to provide a saliva sample before and after each lap for measurement of cortisol and testosterone by enzyme immunoassay (Salimetrics, State College, PA). Subjects completed 4 laps (14.91 miles/lap) and provided 8 saliva samples over a 24h period. Subjects consumed 100mg of E or a look-alike placebo (P) approximately 30 minutes prior to endurance exercise. Cortisol levels were 32.3% lower in E compared to P (0.552+0.665 versus 0.816+0.775 ug/dL, P < 0.05). Testosterone levels were 16.4% higher in E compared to P (86.72+40.90 versus 72.47+33.77 pg/mL, P < 0.05). These results suggest that Eurycoma longifolia extract may help to maintain normal levels of cortisol (low) and testosterone (high) and thus promote an overall “anabolic” hormonal state (versus a “catabolic” state characterized by elevated cortisol and suppressed testosterone) during intense endurance exercise.
 
muscleup said:
Also I'm presrcibed 200mgs per week and that puts me around 1200 ng/dl...So the numbers vary for everyone.

Exactly,

I dont know HOW anyone could say anything different... makes me question everything those people would ever contribute.
 
If someone had natural test level of 1850 at age 20 . Why would they even need to take steroids?

I read about a guy with levels that were near 2000. He was put on anti androgens due to prostate and blood pressure issues.He was a convicted sexual predator and the anti androgen were part of a court ordered medical requirment .Once his test levels came back down to normal he said he could control his sexual urges and was released into the public but monitored by social services.
 
muscleup said:
Everything is advertisement for you....Sheeeesh. You told me several times before that when you are "off" that you are actually on 200mgs of primo{maybe even var, proviron, d-bol, or even better omni-bolic :) } and that it did not suppress you or your HPTA...These were your exact words.

So that 1850 I would assume is an "Enhanced" number...Essentially you have been on something for years, so your T levels mean little to nothing IMO{Yet you still try to feed me some bullshit line}.

And yes Nelson if you came of your HRT you would most def be in the hypogonadal range...200 ng/dl or below, make no mistake about that.

Also I'm presrcibed 200mgs per week and that puts me around 1200 ng/dl...So the numbers vary for everyone.

Oh, I have no doubt I'd be low -- maybe clinically hypo. But there is still something to the body at least attempting to produce something that puts one in a very different hormonal environment than having to be completely dependent. I'd say I'd be around 200 - 250 -- which is twice as much as a lot of guys on gear and HRT. This is what some people aren't getting. It is not about being suppressed. It's about the body functioning. Not optimally. But functioning. It matters.

And the numbers speak for themselves. People who have had their levels checked after using UNLEASHED show improvement. Folks, do you realize how huge that is? Now you can believe these results or you can believe a guy with no credentials who insists he's always right and who changes his story every day and makes wild accusations. Your call.
 
Well I will believe Labwork, All these copy and pasted studies mean fuck all to me...Lab work shows there is some proof in the pudding.

Yes I agree even with guys like you and me Nelson, who are on HRT there is still some sort of function going on...With, or without supps. The HPTA is a helluva lot more resilient than we give it credit for.

Nelson Montana said:
Oh, I have no doubt I'd be low -- maybe clinically hypo. But there is still something to the body at least attempting to produce something that puts one in a very different hormonal environment than having to be completely dependent. I'd say I'd be around 200 - 250 -- which is twice as much as a lot of guys on gear and HRT. This is what some people aren't getting. It is not about being suppressed. It's about the body functioning. Not optimally. But functioning. It matters.

And the numbers speak for themselves. People who have had their levels checked after using UNLEASHED show improvement. Folks, do you realize how huge that is? Now you can believe these results or you can believe a guy with no credentials who insists he's always right and who changes his story every day and makes wild accusations. Your call.
 
muscleup said:
Everything is advertisement for you....Sheeeesh. You told me several times before that when you are "off" that you are actually on 200mgs of primo{maybe even var, proviron, d-bol, or even better omni-bolic :) } and that it did not suppress you or your HPTA...These were your exact words.

So that 1850 I would assume is an "Enhanced" number...Essentially you have been on something for years, so your T levels mean little to nothing IMO{Yet you still try to feed me some bullshit line}.

And yes Nelson if you came of your HRT you would most def be in the hypogonadal range...200 ng/dl or below, make no mistake about that.

Also I'm presrcibed 200mgs per week and that puts me around 1200 ng/dl...So the numbers vary for everyone.

Bro, this is BEFORE I EVER USED STEROIDS.

I TESTED 1850 at 20 years old NATURAL bro, I didn't TOUCH anabolics until I was 21.
 
Ross said:
Bro, this is BEFORE I EVER USED STEROIDS.

I TESTED 1850 at 20 years old NATURAL bro, I didn't TOUCH anabolics until I was 21.

What happened between 20 and 21 to cause your very high natural test levels to drop so low that you needed to supplement with anabolics?
 
ceo said:
What happened between 20 and 21 to cause your very high natural test levels to drop so low that you needed to supplement with anabolics?

When I turned 21, I decided I wanted to take my physique to the next level.

My first 2 cycles were 30mgs Anavar ED for 4 weeks. I didn't use Testosterone until I was 23 years old.
 
Nelson,

I get what you're saying about free test and the merits of Unleashed (via reducing SHBG).

You're also saying that it's wise to help the body maintain *some* natural test production while administering exogenous test. So aside from running a low dosage (or the lowest dosage necessary), are you suggesting anything else to do this? The only other way I can think of is by running a very low dosage of HCG every week.

And just for reference, I've been on HRT for almost 2 years now.

100mg (injectable) test puts me in the 900 range - I feel "ok" on this dosage, not great
50mg (injectable) test puts me in the 500-600 range - I feel like crap on this dosage
A 5g dosage of androgel also puts me in the 500 range - Feel ok on this dosage (probably due to greater DHT conversion)
 
njmuscleguy said:
Nelson,

I get what you're saying about free test and the merits of Unleashed (via reducing SHBG).

You're also saying that it's wise to help the body maintain *some* natural test production while administering exogenous test. So aside from running a low dosage (or the lowest dosage necessary), are you suggesting anything else to do this? The only other way I can think of is by running a very low dosage of HCG every week.

And just for reference, I've been on HRT for almost 2 years now.

100mg (injectable) test puts me in the 900 range - I feel "ok" on this dosage, not great
50mg (injectable) test puts me in the 500-600 range - I feel like crap on this dosage
A 5g dosage of androgel also puts me in the 500 range - Feel ok on this dosage (probably due to greater DHT conversion)

HCG does nothing to maintain T production. HCG SIMULATES LH excretion, which is a great way to get your balls up and running and give them a head start in taking over for themselves, but (here we go again) if they have "nothing to do" what's the point?

I AM NOT an advocate of using HCG every week, either on cycle or on HRT. It should be an occasional "boost" and that's all.

Ross, if you've been using anabolics since you're 21 how in the world can you talk about making natural gains, or maintaining high levels or using supps to gain an advantage? Fuck, I didn't use anabolics until I was 41! I went from age 36 at a scrawny 150 pounds to a 180 pound body model at age 38 NATURALLY -- with my training and supplement techniques. You had a T level of 1850 and went on gear a year later? Dude, get your stories straight.
 
Nelson Montana said:
HCG does nothing to maintain T production. HCG SIMULATES LH excretion, which is a great way to get your balls up and running and give them a head start in taking over for themselves, but (here we go again) if they have "nothing to do" what's the point?

I AM NOT an advocate of using HCG every week, either on cycle or on HRT. It should be an occasional "boost" and that's all.

Yes, HCG doesn't directly boost test, but keeps the boys primed... or to put it another way, prevents total testicular shutdown.

So back to my original question then... what do you recommend to keep your body's natural test production going, other than maintaining a low exogenous test dosage.
 
Nelson Montana said:
HCG does nothing to maintain T production. HCG SIMULATES LH excretion, which is a great way to get your balls up and running and give them a head start in taking over for themselves, but (here we go again) if they have "nothing to do" what's the point?

I AM NOT an advocate of using HCG every week, either on cycle or on HRT. It should be an occasional "boost" and that's all.

Ross, if you've been using anabolics since you're 21 how in the world can you talk about making natural gains, or maintaining high levels or using supps to gain an advantage? Fuck, I didn't use anabolics until I was 41! I went from age 36 at a scrawny 150 pounds to a 180 pound body model at age 38 NATURALLY -- with my training and supplement techniques. You had a T level of 1850 and went on gear a year later? Dude, get your stories straight.

Bro, I am only 25. :)

When I decided I wanted to juice after my 21st B-day, I wanted to have my Testosterone level checked. At 20 years old, my level was 1850.
 
njmuscleguy said:
Yes, HCG doesn't directly boost test, but keeps the boys primed... or to put it another way, prevents total testicular shutdown.

So back to my original question then... what do you recommend to keep your body's natural test production going, other than maintaining a low exogenous test dosage.


Maybe Nelson can clear this up. If 100mg is just as suppressive to LH and FSH as 300mg it would appear that there is no way to maintain any sort of "natural" test production while on. Restoring a suppressed system is probably more of a function of time on, then dosage (at least once you get above 100mg per week).
 
Yes TIME...With time anyone can recover from ANY cycle...As long as those people do not have a pre-exisiting condition that will lead them to primary hypogonadism.
alphatest said:
Maybe Nelson can clear this up. If 100mg is just as suppressive to LH and FSH as 300mg it would appear that there is no way to maintain any sort of "natural" test production while on. Restoring a suppressed system is probably more of a function of time on, then dosage (at least once you get above 100mg per week).
 
But there is no "recovering" for (most) people on HRT... so time isn't the answer according to what Nelson was saying about maintaining natural test production along with exogenous test supplementation. So initially he said that keeping HRT dosage low will help in this endeavor... just curious if he suggests anything else.

I'm not saying I'm convinced either way, I'm no expert and I haven't seen any studies proving or disproving... what I know is that when I'm on test, even minimal HRT dosages, my LH and FSH are practically zero if not zero... so I'm guessing that my body isn't doing much in the way of test production while on HRT.
 
Ross said:
Granted, 1850 is insanely high, I have great genetics indeed. Many 19-21 year olds will test that high though, which is why it is TRUE that teenagers don't need steroids! :)

I think this is something a lot of people overlook.

Personally, I don't think that taking advice from the 'genetic freaks' is always the best idea.

Genetic freaks can usually eat or train or eat any sort of diet and still put on muscle.

Those comments, 'well Jay/Ronnie/Flex did it this way', completely irrelevant to the majority of the population.

I have come to realise that the best advice and knowledge are from those who:

1. Are hardgainers/ectomorphs, have had to work hard to put on muscle (I think women are also in this category as well :) )

2. Have pushed their physique to the max nattie, and then used or kept it nattie



This is an example of how you would post scientific papers on the internet so that people can actually find them and check out the original source themselves.

If you notice, aspirin doesn't work on everyone, so claims that some herbs can replace steroids is a bit over the top.

I also included the introduction as I thought it was interesting.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full...in&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

BMJ 2008;336:195-198 (26 January), doi:10.1136/bmj.39430.529549.BE (published 17 January 2008)

Research

Aspirin "resistance" and risk of cardiovascular morbidity: systematic review and meta-analysis

George Krasopoulos, cardiovascular surgery fellow1, Stephanie J Brister, associate professor1, W Scott Beattie, R Fraser Elliot chair in cardiac anaesthesia2, Michael R Buchanan, professor3

1 University Health Network, Division of Cardiovascular Surgery, Toronto General Hospital, 2 University Health Network, Department of Anaesthesiology, Toronto General Hospital, 3 McMaster University, Department of Pathology and Molecular Medicine, Hamilton, ON, Canada L8S 4L8

Correspondence to: M R Buchanan [email protected]


Objective To determine if there is a relation between aspirin "resistance" and clinical outcomes in patients with cardiovascular disease.
Design Systematic review and meta-analysis.

Data source Electronic literature search without language restrictions of four databases and hand search of bibliographies for other relevant articles.

Review methods Inclusion criteria included a test for platelet responsiveness and clinical outcomes. Aspirin resistance was assessed, using a variety of platelet function assays.

Results 20 studies totalling 2930 patients with cardiovascular disease were identified. Most studies used aspirin regimens, ranging from 75-325 mg daily, and six studies included adjunct antiplatelet therapy. Compliance was confirmed directly in 14 studies and by telephone or interviews in three. Information was insufficient to assess compliance in three studies. Overall, 810 patients (28%) were classified as aspirin resistant. A cardiovascular related event occurred in 41% of patients (odds ratio 3.85, 95% confidence interval 3.08 to 4.80), death in 5.7% (5.99, 2.28 to 15.72), and an acute coronary syndrome in 39.4% (4.06, 2.96 to 5.56). Aspirin resistant patients did not benefit from other antiplatelet treatment.

Conclusion Patients who are resistant to aspirin are at a greater risk of clinically important cardiovascular morbidity long term than patients who are sensitive to aspirin.





There is no debate that long term aspirin use attenuates the risks of myocardial infarction, stroke, and vascular related deaths in patients with cardiovascular disease,1 but a significant number of patients prescribed aspirin as antithrombotic therapy have major adverse vascular related events each year.2 Consequently other antiplatelet agents in addition to aspirin have been prescribed for certain patients.w16-w20

The major controversy about aspirin therapy is why particular patients do not benefit from such therapy and how they might be identified. It has been suggested that some patients require a higher dose of aspirin than is normally recommended to achieve the expected antiplatelet effect—for example, inhibition of platelet function or inhibition of platelet thromboxane A2 synthesis.3456 w10 It is unclear whether these patients simply receive too low an aspirin dose, are not compliant, have differing abilities to absorb aspirin, or have an underlying genetic disposition that renders aspirin ineffective.2 7891011 Such patients have been labelled aspirin "resistant"—that is, their platelets are not affected in the same way or are affected differently from the platelets of those who seem to benefit from aspirin therapy (aspirin "sensitive" patients with no subsequent adverse cardiovascular event).121314151617 w1 w4-w9 w11-w13 Little consistency exists about which measure should be used to identify patients who seem resistant to aspirin.121314151617 w1 w4-w9 w11-w13 Also, few studies have assessed the effect of aspirin resistance on clinically important outcomes.

We systematically reviewed studies of aspirin resistance and its effect on adverse cardiovascular outcomes. We hypothesised that aspirin resistance is real and is clinically relevant—that is, it significantly affects the risk of cardiovascular, cerebrovascular, and vascular related events.11 w6
 
I think this is something a lot of people overlook.

Personally, I don't think that taking advice from the 'genetic freaks' is always the best idea.

Genetic freaks can usually eat or train or eat any sort of diet and still put on muscle.

Those comments, 'well Jay/Ronnie/Flex did it this way', completely irrelevant to the majority of the population.

I have come to realise that the best advice and knowledge are from those who:

1. Are hardgainers/ectomorphs, have had to work hard to put on muscle (I think women are also in this category as well )

2. Have pushed their physique to the max nattie, and then used or kept it nattie

BEST thing I've read all day. Its true....you should take the advice from people with good genetics with a grain of salt.

This is the best example I can think of to illustrate your point:

When I hear Nelson talk about not doing cardio b/c it doesn't do anything but make you fat. Why would I listen to that? Nelson is either a Mesomorph who is naturally lean, or an ectomorph, who can get ripped w/o even trying. As impressive as it was to gain the muscle he gained, he never had to struggle with drastically changing his body composition through the loss of large amounts of body fat.

There is only so much a person with a sluggish metabolism can do as far as diet goes....You need your 40% protein and 20-30% EFA's, and you can't cut calories too low (not below 2000 for a male b/w 170 and 190 IMO), so once you get to that point and fat loss stops, you NEED TO INCREASE CALORIES BURNED!!! Increasing weight lifting, which doesn't burn as many calories as cardio during the activity, can lead to over training if you increase it enough to see a significant caloric deficit. This means that once you are lifting the most you can to sustain/gain muscle and have your caloric intake as low as you can have it w/o going into starvation mode, you NEED to do cardio to break through plateau's. Just saying eat less and train more is bad advice simply b/c there is no more training to add and no more deficit to go in.


sorry for the rant...the point you made about taking advice from certain people w/ certain genetics reminded me exactly of the issue above. I had to get it off my chest.
 
Ralph_Wiggum said:
BEST thing I've read all day. Its true....you should take the advice from people with good genetics with a grain of salt.

This is the best example I can think of to illustrate your point:

When I hear Nelson talk about not doing cardio b/c it doesn't do anything but make you fat. Why would I listen to that? Nelson is either a Mesomorph who is naturally lean, or an ectomorph, who can get ripped w/o even trying. As impressive as it was to gain the muscle he gained, he never had to struggle with drastically changing his body composition through the loss of large amounts of body fat.

There is only so much a person with a sluggish metabolism can do as far as diet goes....You need your 40% protein and 20-30% EFA's, and you can't cut calories too low (not below 2000 for a male b/w 170 and 190 IMO), so once you get to that point and fat loss stops, you NEED TO INCREASE CALORIES BURNED!!! Increasing weight lifting, which doesn't burn as many calories as cardio during the activity, can lead to over training if you increase it enough to see a significant caloric deficit. This means that once you are lifting the most you can to sustain/gain muscle and have your caloric intake as low as you can have it w/o going into starvation mode, you NEED to do cardio to break through plateau's. Just saying eat less and train more is bad advice simply b/c there is no more training to add and no more deficit to go in.


sorry for the rant...the point you made about taking advice from certain people w/ certain genetics reminded me exactly of the issue above. I had to get it off my chest.

Solid post brother.
 
Mr. Black said:
Based on my own blood tests when experimenting with HRT for 6 months @ 100mg per week the following is what I noticed...
Total Test was close to 1000ng/dl (pre-Hrt was 500), SHBG decreased by almost 50%, LH went down to 0 and Bio-Available test increased almost 400%. If my LH was indeed 0, then it seems highly unlikely that my own nuts were putting out anything in to the mix...

Ditto to this. I had (and still have) the same results except it had no effect on my SHBG and my e levels increased dramatically.

Oh, and Nelson Montana is a fucking idiot. I don't know how this thead has reached 10 pages.
 
yea i got a buddy with lean 20 inch arms that doesnt know jack shit about juice. he owes everything he has from his parents. he looks like a beast, but you would be a complete jack ass idiot to take advice from him. Dont trust the freaks for anything.
 
Nelson Montana said:
No fear of getting banned for stating an opinion bro. But I think you're missing the point. 100 mgs can bring you to 900, if you still have some T in you. If you were in double digits, no way. The study you cite does not show otherwise.

And Ross, yes I know there's a curve but you too keep missing the point. Why would ANYONE need more than 200mgs if it'll raise your T to that level from next to nothing? But it seems you're looking to split hairs here. Are you saying your supps won't do anything for the enhanced athlete? The ones I recommend have already proven to do so.

C3 -- glad to hear the methods are working for you. Some old, some radically new. Bottom line -- whatever works, is worthwhile.

I got into the double digits (1200+) on 100mg of T enanthate Sub-Q after 5 weeks. My baseline is 200-300. My LH and FSH were non-existant indicating that my HPTA was completly shut down. LH and FSH levels prior to T were normal.

Reading this whole thread is like watching a South Park episode.
 
koolkatarbtl said:
I got into the double digits (1200+) on 100mg of T enanthate Sub-Q ??? after 5 weeks. My baseline is 200-300. My LH and FSH were non-existant indicating that my HPTA was completly shut down. LH and FSH levels prior to T were normal.

Reading this whole thread is like watching a South Park episode.
you did it sub q? was it the pellets or something?
 
Ross said:
Nelson, so long as you are on ANY DOSAGE OF EXOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE, your blood testosterone level is NOT NATURAL.

On 100mgs of Testosterone weekly(depending on the individual), most men will be around 600-900ng/dl. This is NOT your natural production Nelson, this is exogenous testosterone.

Come OFF for 12 weeks, get tested again, you will be LOW--VERY LOW.
hey ross whats the 600-900ng/dl coverted to si units for us canadian bros.
 
JLowe02 said:
yea i got a buddy with lean 20 inch arms that doesnt know jack shit about juice. he owes everything he has from his parents. he looks like a beast, but you would be a complete jack ass idiot to take advice from him. Dont trust the freaks for anything.

my arms way exceed 20 inches--we are talking length right?
 
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