My CKD plan - feedback

[harman_2005]

I start CKD tomorrow, just wanted to run things by the CKD gurus before I embark on it

My base calories are ~3000. Starting Monday, I'm gonna drop my calories and carbs down. By Saturday, I should be down to ~2100 calories, less than 5% carbs (not including fiber in the count). Then for the next week, I follow the typical 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs (not including fiber) at 2100 calories.

On the second weekend is the first carb-up: About 4000 calories on Saturday with ~700 g carbs. Sunday - 2800 or so calories, with ~400 g carbs.

Then after that, back to low-carb for the week at 2100 calories, focusing on more fat and less protein earlier in the week to get back to ketosis as quickly as possible. Then repeat the weekly cycle of no-carb/carb-up until I've lost enough weight.

Training:
Lifting 4 days a week: Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. Keeping volume low, intensity high, all compound movements. In other words, lesser sets, lesser reps, heavier weight, with longer rest periods. This is in hopes of maintaining strength and muscle. Workouts will be followed by tuna + flax oil.

1) Does my plan seem sensible? Did I miss anything?

2) What days should I weigh myself to track progress? Monday mornings, after the weekend carb-ups?

3) How do I transition off the diet withough gaining back fat? I was thinking after a weekend carb-up, eat around a 150 grams of carbs a day and increase calories back to maintenance level over the course of a week. Does that seem right?

4) On the weekends, I'm eating a total of 1100 grams of carbs on the CKD. Currently I'm eating about 2450 grams a week (350 a day). So my total weekly carb intake is still 45% of 'normal.' Is this low enough to make that much of a difference? Should I cut down the carbs numbers for the carb-ups since I'm not doing a "glycogen depleting" workout at the end of the week?

Thanks in advance for help!

 

[LeeJunFan]

looks good but what cardio will you be doing and when, also, I;m pretty sure that the glycogen depletion workout just before the carb-up is pretty important for glycogen resynthesis.

 

[Xizor]

, with ~400 g carbs.
1) Does my plan seem sensible? Did I miss anything?

2) What days should I weigh myself to track progress? Monday mornings, after the weekend carb-ups?

3) How do I transition off the diet withough gaining back fat? I was thinking after a weekend carb-up, eat around a 150 grams of carbs a day and increase calories back to maintenance level over the course of a week. Does that seem right?

4) On the weekends, I'm eating a total of 1100 grams of carbs on the CKD. Currently I'm eating about 2450 grams a week (350 a day). So my total weekly carb intake is still 45% of 'normal.' Is this low enough to make that much of a difference? Should I cut down the carbs numbers for the carb-ups since I'm not doing a "glycogen depleting" workout at the end of the week?

Thanks in advance for help!

Looks good, but whats ur height, weight and what supplements are u going to use. 2100kcal would be what I was at the last weeks of my ckd, seems low but since I dont kno ur stats its hard to say if you´ve gone too low.
Personally Id like to start high and slowly decrease calories IF I dont continue to loose wheight at a steady rate.

As LeeFunjan said incorporate cardio and add a glycogen depletion workout.
The cardio should be low-med intensity.

I think the best day to wheigh myself would be the day after carbup. That way you can tell how much of the loss actually was fat, since you regain the lost waterweight. That is if u keep your carbloading at the same ammount of carbs. Max weight I put on on a carbup was a little over 6lb, really bloated.. bu strength was good.

I dont totally agree with the transition, take it very slowly. Incorporate small ammounts of carbs each week and cut back on the fat. I did it all wrong last time and wont make the same misstake again. But then again what didnt work for me might work for you. We're all different...

Your carbload ~1000g is fine but expect to get bloated

/Xizor

 

[harman_2005]

Thanks for the replys so far. I'm 180 lbs, 5'7", 15% bf.

Instead of doing cardio, could I just cut back on the carbs a bit during the carb-up?

I agree about the transition, I think I should prolly take it slower. But I guess I'll worry about that later....

 

[Xizor]

Thanks for the replys so far. I'm 180 lbs, 5'7", 15% bf.

Instead of doing cardio, could I just cut back on the carbs a bit during the carb-up?

I agree about the transition, I think I should prolly take it slower. But I guess I'll worry about that later....

Ok then, think 2100kcal is a wee bit low. But since u have no incorporated cardio in ur diet ur prolly off good with it. Actually same ammount I ate at that bodyweight. But I was at 11%bf.

I like cardio though cause I can eat more and morning walks are really a good start of the day and it boost the metabolism.

For ur bw I think the carbup is a bit too much. Try gettin down to about 800g instead clean carbs if u can handle it.

I would estimate that it'll take 16 weeks for u to reach 10% bf. If you would have the same metabolism as me...

Good Luck!

/Xizor

 

[harman_2005]

Ok then, think 2100kcal is a wee bit low. But since u have no incorporated cardio in ur diet ur prolly off good with it. Actually same ammount I ate at that bodyweight. But I was at 11%bf.

I like cardio though cause I can eat more and morning walks are really a good start of the day and it boost the metabolism.

For ur bw I think the carbup is a bit too much. Try gettin down to about 800g instead clean carbs if u can handle it.

I would estimate that it'll take 16 weeks for u to reach 10% bf. If you would have the same metabolism as me...

Good Luck!

/Xizor

Thanks a lot. Heh, try to take a morning walk in my neighborhood bro; you won't be walking by the evening

I was thinking of cutting the carb-up period to 24 hours, and keeping carbs to 700, since I don't have cardio. Most important thing though is just to try it out and tweak it based on your own personal experience though I guess....

 

[Xizor]

Thanks a lot. Heh, try to take a morning walk in my neighborhood bro; you won't be walking by the evening

I was thinking of cutting the carb-up period to 24 hours, and keeping carbs to 700, since I don't have cardio. Most important thing though is just to try it out and tweak it based on your own personal experience though I guess....

Cutting carbup will help a lot, It'll give u more days in keto and thus more fat will get burned. But it might mentally brake you. It'll take a stong mind and some ephedrine to fight cravings, I kno .. But shouldnt be that bad, my longest cycles was 9-days keto 1-day carbup. Thats when it starts wear you out and workouts gettin tough.

I pretty much kno what works for me, after the extended period i tried ckd.
Started CKD now this sunday.. this morning (tuesday) I was "in". I used to have a hard time gettin "in" the 1st weeks, most of the time I made it by wednesday evening which is way too late. I found out that the best way to get in fast is to drain the glycogen stored in the liver by doin morning walks early on in the cycle. Be aware of the hidden carbs they'll throw u out of keto. And believe me they are everywhere, even where u dont expect them .

I probably wouldnt wanna walk in "ur neighborhood". Its cool here where I live though. Hardly any people out at 5:30 AM and hardly any danger. The only ones that might stop you are the police to check wtf ur doin out walkin.

/Xizor

 

[harman_2005]

Some observations so far:

- Workout have been pretty good. I squatted on Monday, benched on Wednesday. But on those days, I still had 250 grams of carbs and 150 grams of carbs, respectively. My calories on those days were 2700 and 2300, so it wasn't too bad.

- I'm down to 2100 calories and < 20 grams of carbs today. Should be interesting to see how deadlifting goes....

- My recovery ability is kinda shitty right now, without the 3500 calories I've been used to eating. I'm still so damn sore from Wednesday's workout.

- Hunger. It's not something I've experienced much, since I've basically been bulking for over a year now. It's a bitch.

- I'm still entrenched in a bulking mindset. I keep thinking thngs like "OMG, I'm only at 1300 calories...I need to eat something or else I'll lose weight!!" Then I have to remind myself that I'm trying to lose weight.

- I miss being able to go out with friends to eat. In the past few days I've had to miss a few opportunities to go out and eat. It's not the eating part I like, but just a chance to sit with people for an hour and chill.

- Now it's the weekend. That means pressure to drink. Normally nobody would have to pressure me into drinking, but now I can see everybody going "Come on, don't be a puss."

- Should be interesting to see how the first real week of CKD goes....

 

[mcbruiser]

I'm curious-- for those on a CKD diet, how much muscle do you lose in general? I mean, with a split like "65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs", you must lose a ton.

 

[harman_2005]

I'm curious-- for those on a CKD diet, how much muscle do you lose in general? I mean, with a split like "65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs", you must lose a ton.

CKD is designed for the purpose of losing fat, while losing very little or no fat at all.

 

[Xizor]

I'm curious-- for those on a CKD diet, how much muscle do you lose in general? I mean, with a split like "65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs", you must lose a ton.

Since Ketobodies are used for fule and there is an "unlimited" supply of energy from fat. As opposed to carbcontaining diets where body might use muscleprotein as fuel when glycogen is low. It might actually be musclesparing once ur body is acustomed to it..

When I did CKD last time it was for 10 months and muscle loss was acceptable considering the time I was on.

/Xizor

 

[mcbruiser]

I was always under the impression that to maintain muscle required at least 1g of protein per lb of LBM.

Would it make much difference if I were to reverse protein and fat on the schedule, IOW, 65% protein and 35% fat? and use my carbs only in my post-wo shake, but increase that from <20g to more like 50g dextrose? how about having a few carbs preworkout? i don't think that my training time is the right time to be burning fat. I want to build muscle during that hour and use the other 23 hours of the day to burn fat.

sort of a pseudo-CKD/atkins diet. thoughts?

 

[mcbruiser]

Since Ketobodies are used for fule and there is an "unlimited" supply of energy from fat. As opposed to carbcontaining diets where body might use muscleprotein as fuel when glycogen is low. It might actually be musclesparing once ur body is acustomed to it..

When I did CKD last time it was for 10 months and muscle loss was acceptable considering the time I was on.

/Xizor

the words "might be" and "muscle loss was acceptable" raise a red flag for me.

 

[juve]

if your baseline maintenance itake is 3k cals, 900cals restriction will prove too much an energy deficit.
2.5-2.7k cals is fine, kick in some cardio+weights - ie keep it operational, not anorexic
as your weight decreases and/or as your progress slows down then further taper off nutrient intake.

 

[mcbruiser]

i dunno. i'm not convinced so far. i will have to read more about ketogenics.

forget about dieting. just stick with thermogenics, liposuction, genetic manipulation.

 

[harman_2005]

i dunno. i'm not convinced so far. i will have to read more about ketogenics.

forget about dieting. just stick with thermogenics, liposuction, genetic manipulation.

Your questions are too general. Read more about the diet and come back to ask specific questions. The sticky's have good information, as does c-k-d.com

To answer one of your questions, 65% protein wouldn't work. You would not be able to enter ketosis.

Another note, I'm 180 lbs with 15% bf. That's 153 lbs LBM. At 65% fat, 30% protein, rest carbs, that's ~155 grams of protein a day, enough to maintain.

 

[harman_2005]

i don't think that my training time is the right time to be burning fat. I want to build muscle during that hour and use the other 23 hours of the day to burn fat.

In ketosis, you're always burning body fat. That's the point. As for building muscle during that hour of training, if you meant that literally, then I have to say you don't build muscle during that hour anyway. If you meant it figuratively, then I would say that since it is a (reduction) diet, the point is not to build but to maintain the muscle while cutting fat. That's what the CKD is designed for.

Some people do use low-/no-carb diets to bulk, but I'm not too familiar with the ideas behind that. For information on that concept, search for "The Anabolic Diet" on T-Mag.com

 

[mcbruiser]

harman, thanks for the info. one question though, why wouldn't the fat-protein ratio reversal work? i.e. 65% protein and 35% fat? why would that prevent ketosis? i would guess b/c protein coverts to glucose at a higher rate than fat?

I am 194 lbs, 12% bf, than means I would need about 170g ED for maintenance. Would I get that on a CKD diet?

Also, out of curiosity, do CKD diets work better for natural athletes or for athletes using AAS? It seems like w/o carbs, you will eventually lose muscle mass. It just isn't natural otherwise.

Of course I meant figuratively, re: the training. As I understand it, high intensity training requires a constant source of glucose. I eat some carbs before training to avoid gluconeogenesis, or the breakdown of muscle into glucose, and then some dextrose post-wo to replenish glycogen stores to avoid going catabolic. I don't eat any carbs the rest of the day while dieting.

This seems to be working okay, but I am still losing some muscle mass. But I'm still learning, so I admit this approach may be flawed. That's why I am here.

 

[Xizor]

the words "might be" and "muscle loss was acceptable" raise a red flag for me.

I'll try to explain myself. In nutritional and diet knowledge there is no such thing as "one size fits all". We all are uniquely build, exept twins a´nd work in different ways. I might be doing very well on a diet that doesnt work for you. When I write stuff on discussionboards I dont like presenting what I say as facts. Yes, I believe the stuff I say is right, but are they? I have knowledge in the ckd diet thru articles Ive read and cause Ive tried it for a long timeperiod, but I still wont present what I say as facts.

heres some atricles by Lyle McDonald I think you should read..
http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic1.htm
http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic2.htm
http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic3.htm

and heres my results
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283735&highlight=10months

/Xizor

 

[mcbruiser]

Great results, Xizor, but even you admit that you were not exactly natural. Also, it's interesting to note that there was one bro who tried the CKD diet and commented that he had lost considerable muscle mass, which is exactly why I hesitate to try it myself.

I will read the articles you posted, thanks for the information. I will be the first to admit that I could be wrong, I am just not informed enough at this point.

One question... on a ketogenic diet, I assume that it must be necessary to also be in a calorie deficit in order to burn bodyfat, otherwise won't you just be burning ketones converted from the fat that you are consuming and not from your body?

 

[LeeJunFan]

the BEST thing you can do to get information from is to go to C-K-D.com, this is an entire site devoted to the CKD, it also has links to Lyle's articles, I am on CKD at the moment and I stick to what Lyle says in his articles, down to the last gram of fat and the last rep of an exercise, and if I do have a question they have a message board there.

 

[mcbruiser]

lee, how's the diet working for you? what are your stats, if you don't mind sharing? what kind of training do you do and what are your goals? have you seen much muscle loss? fat loss?

also, i was wondering about ketostyx... how can you really tell if you are burning body fat using those, since of course you will have tons of keytones in your system due to the high fat diet??? thanks.

 

[mcbruiser]

also, how does this affect your LDL cholesterol levels? anybody get colon cancer while on this diet?

 

[Xizor]

Great results, Xizor, but even you admit that you were not exactly natural. Also, it's interesting to note that there was one bro who tried the CKD diet and commented that he had lost considerable muscle mass, which is exactly why I hesitate to try it myself.

I dont totally agree with you. The only real musclesparing thing I tried was hGh for 5 out of 40weeks+. Dont hardly think it had a major impact.
The only thing I tried which is androgenic in nature was proviron, there again.. dont think it can spare musclemass.

The thing I think contibuted the most was the ephedrine and to some extent the anti-e at the end. Ephedrine is not illegal to have in your posession or buy here.. Its Illegal if you are a competing athlete and is drugtested..
The only point Ive proven then is that beta-antagonists are indeed musclesparing. 60mg/day isnt really shitloads either

I think some people have a twisted self image. You think you are big, but who would really know until you´re down at 10% bf.. most people get disappointed that they havnt got more muscle out of all the hard work and wont accept that they are smaller. Some go to fast and lower the kcals in order achieve their goal in less time and loose musclemass.

Does it reallt matter to me that you have 20' arms and can bench 300lb with a beergut and 17%bf+.. but then again we all have different goals.

/Xizor